Talk:Barack Obama: Difference between revisions
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:::::Just out of curiousity CENSEI and Otolemur, have either of you lobbied for a [[Criticism of John McCain]] article as well or is this just about wanting to criticize Obama? --[[User:Loonymonkey|Loonymonkey]] ([[User talk:Loonymonkey|talk]]) 20:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC) |
:::::Just out of curiousity CENSEI and Otolemur, have either of you lobbied for a [[Criticism of John McCain]] article as well or is this just about wanting to criticize Obama? --[[User:Loonymonkey|Loonymonkey]] ([[User talk:Loonymonkey|talk]]) 20:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::: I think that criticism forks suck as much as anyone here, but considering that any material of a critical nature, or even material that is perceived as potentially critical is stripped the moment is touches this article doesn’t inspire much faith in me that all editors are looking to write a good article. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 20:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC) |
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Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
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If you violate biographies of living persons policy you may receive a warning and explanation on your talk page. If you again violate biographies of living persons policy, you may be blocked, banned or otherwise sanctioned with limited rights of appeal. Wikipedia articles can affect real people's lives. This gives us an ethical and legal responsibility. Biographical material must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality and avoiding original research, particularly if it is contentious. Editors must take particular care adding biographical material about a living person to any Wikipedia page. Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States and to all of our content policies. |
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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More comic relief
Barack Obama rickrolled - this one is pretty clever, but it amazes me that people actually make the effort. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Admins and editors, please put The Obama Nation on watchlists
This book, The Obama Nation officially came out today. (Front-page New York Times article about it here.) It's a partisan book that has already received a lot of criticism about accuracy from news organizations and groups on the left. I assume the article is going to attract a lot of bad behavior, too. It might be a good idea to put the Obama-probation label on its talk page, since Obama-related articles are covered by it. Noroton (talk) 00:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
- Forgot to mention, it's at the top of the NYT bestseller list, another reason why I expect the article on it to get contentious. Noroton (talk) 00:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Admins and editors, please put The Case Against Barack Obama on watchlists
I just created an article on David Freddoso's The Case Against Barack Obama, which is competing with Jerome Corsi's The Obama Nation. -- Noroton (talk) 00:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Criteria of entries within the Cited works section?
There are three books in this short section: two texts written by Obama and one biography about Obama (by Mendell). What does this section signify? Texts written or endorsed by Obama? If so, the list is incomplete. If the criteria is something else, then maybe the References section needs a cross-check. —Kanodin 05:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
teleprompter candidate
There is no reason or need to delete this It fits with NPOV very well, source is refered to. --Cretino (talk) 23:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Seems extremely peripheral for main biography, and not worth including. LotLE×talk 23:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- The edit seems to violate WP:DUE. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 00:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with the above. This falls several orders of magnitude below the threshold for something that deserves space in a summary style biography. If we wanted to include every criticism everyone ever made of every politician out there, the typical politician's article would be several megabytes long. --Clubjuggle T/C 03:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- I have twice previously been forced to revert this edit by Cretino (July 30, August 14). From a campaign standpoint, it is noteworthy that Republicans have branded Obama as the "teleprompter candidate" as part of their election strategy, and it may warrant a mention in Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. A less partisan source than The Weekly Standard (Rupert Murdoch's neoconservative opinion magazine) would need to be found, of course. Equally McCain's complete ineptitude with the device, resulting in repeated calls for joint town hall meetings, may warrant a mention in John McCain presidential campaign, 2008. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- For what it's worth (and about on the same level of discourse) Paris Hilton is seemingly the most articulate of the bunch, having reportedly done her lone position statement entirely from memory without the aid of a teleprompter.[4] On the other hand, some are insisting that the no-teleprompter story is just a campaign ploy and that she actually did use one.[5] Could this be teleprompter-gate? Wikidemo (talk) 13:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- It's possible that WP:WEIGHT would not be violated by including a mention of her use/nonuse of a teleprompter in the Paris Hilton article. ;-) As for Obama, he obviously wasn't relying on a teleprompter during his various interviews with the editorial boards of newspapers (many videos are available) and he did fine, so I see no point in including yet another ooh!ooh! Republican campaign talking point in this article. I further see no point in reducing Wikipedia articles into trash-talk, red-top recyclers of lies, rumors and innuendo. Flatterworld (talk) 13:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- For what it's worth (and about on the same level of discourse) Paris Hilton is seemingly the most articulate of the bunch, having reportedly done her lone position statement entirely from memory without the aid of a teleprompter.[4] On the other hand, some are insisting that the no-teleprompter story is just a campaign ploy and that she actually did use one.[5] Could this be teleprompter-gate? Wikidemo (talk) 13:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- I have twice previously been forced to revert this edit by Cretino (July 30, August 14). From a campaign standpoint, it is noteworthy that Republicans have branded Obama as the "teleprompter candidate" as part of their election strategy, and it may warrant a mention in Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. A less partisan source than The Weekly Standard (Rupert Murdoch's neoconservative opinion magazine) would need to be found, of course. Equally McCain's complete ineptitude with the device, resulting in repeated calls for joint town hall meetings, may warrant a mention in John McCain presidential campaign, 2008. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- A new user tried to include this in the German WP and after he was blocked for being insistent (incl. edit-warring) he was blocked the very same day and it took him no time trying to edit it (again with a new account) here, (also the same day). Not saying s/he is the same but it was discussed before (sometimes in mid July I think) and discharged. Nothing changed till then. --Floridianed (talk) 04:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
1.3 million, really?
I donno, 1.3 million just seems surprisingly low. I suppose that doesn't take into consideration his wife's money or something? --M4390116
- The source is this, and it seems to be joint number. -- Rick Block (talk) 03:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- Yup. The only thing missing is her retirement plan. --Bobblehead (rants) 03:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to ask but what's your point, M4390116? --Floridianed (talk) 04:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Considering the drop in housing prices (and the stock market) since the article was written, it's probably high. Flatterworld (talk) 13:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Criticism
Why there is no article titled Criticism of Barack Obama? This article also lacks any information on criticism. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- In almost all cases, the creation of a criticism article is considered a POV fork. Criticism of Obama, where appropriate, is woven into the body of this article (and its child articles). Please refer to the 33 pages of archived discussion for specifics. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- Good luck getting any criticism in here. CENSEI (talk) 19:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- The reason there is no "Criticism ..." article is because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It's hardly possible to read WP:CRIT often enough or carefully enough. LotLE×talk 19:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- There are so many criticism articles like Criticism of George W. Bush, Criticism of Hugo Chavez etc. Then what is the problem with Criticism of Barack Obama? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- The individuals who currently WP:OWN this article, will not allow that to happen. CENSEI (talk) 19:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- @ User:Otolemur crassicaudatus - A good Wikipedian will follow Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, not other articles, for the proper approach. This is a featured article because of a strict adherence to Wikipedia principles and the diligence of editors keeping the article accurate and neutral. Bush and Chavez are individuals that have attracted such a staggering amount of criticism that in the eyes of the editors of those articles, special criticism articles are necessary. Obama, in contrast, has attracted very little criticism - and that has been proportionately and sensibly integrated into the article when appropriate. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- @ User:CENSEI - As I explained to you on your talk page, please keep your personal opinions about other editors out of article talk pages and remain civil. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- The individuals who currently WP:OWN this article, will not allow that to happen. CENSEI (talk) 19:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- There are so many criticism articles like Criticism of George W. Bush, Criticism of Hugo Chavez etc. Then what is the problem with Criticism of Barack Obama? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- The reason there is no "Criticism ..." article is because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It's hardly possible to read WP:CRIT often enough or carefully enough. LotLE×talk 19:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- Just out of curiousity CENSEI and Otolemur, have either of you lobbied for a Criticism of John McCain article as well or is this just about wanting to criticize Obama? --Loonymonkey (talk) 20:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- I think that criticism forks suck as much as anyone here, but considering that any material of a critical nature, or even material that is perceived as potentially critical is stripped the moment is touches this article doesn’t inspire much faith in me that all editors are looking to write a good article. CENSEI (talk) 20:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
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