Talk:England

English Common Law

This picture should be included on the England page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Common_law_world.png

The spread of English law, is just as impressive as the English language. Ben200 (talk) 21:30, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Cornish language?

As per this Cornish is no-longer classed as an active langauge - should it be removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.75.37.250 (talk) 14:29, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

The article states that a UN report has classified it as extinct, but that experts in the field are surprised at this and are suggesting there should be a new classification for languages like Cornish and Manx that have undergone a revitalisation. I don't think Cornish should be removed on the basis of this one report. Cheers, This flag once was red^propaganda_deeds 14:33, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I think including a language less than 1000 people are fluent in is a waste of time. I would suggest that are probably 100 languages that are spoken by more British citzens than cornish is 86.16.44.160 (talk) 18:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Demography of England

"The generally accepted view[citation needed] is that the ethnic background of the English populace..." Citation needed, come on! Even if it is needed, how can this be left uncited? You could put down Stephen Oppenheimer's study wihch reveals that the Anglo-Saxon contribution is vastly overrated, with fully 2/3 of English people tracing an unbroken line to Celtic ancestry originating in south-west Europe. Stephen Oppenheimer's study estimates a meagre 5% of English DNA is Anglo-Saxon.

 Done Citation added. Cheers. Imperat§ r^(Talk) 13:36, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

england article

please change the england article, it says they were there for at least 700'000 years, bullshit, no humans were around then.

The article doesn't say humans, it says Homo erectus - and per the Homo erectus article: "H. erectus originally migrated from Africa during the Early Pleistocene, possibly as a result of the operation of the Saharan pump, around 2.0 million years ago, and dispersed throughout most of the Old World." I'll see your bullshit and raise you one reading and comprehending ;-) Cheers, This flag once was red^propaganda_deeds 11:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Welsh act of Union

There is no distinction drawn between the kingdom of England, which by the terms of the act of union of 1535 [1]includes Wales, and the presently constituted state which excludes Wales. We list the other acts of union - what about the Welsh!! Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 17:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Try again - the reference to the Welsh act of union is not in the first section which is where the reference to the Scots one is! Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 17:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

The introduction refers to the Kingdom of England as including Wales, and the later section in Medieval England contains a paragraph explaining how that kingdom was formed. The process was quite different in Wales to that in relation to Scotland - the Kingdom of England conquered and (in administrative terms) assimilated Wales by increments over several centuries culminating in the 1535 act, whereas the union with Scotland was a single event agreed (albeit not by equals) by treaty which ended the separate kingdoms of England and Scotland. In my view the balance in the existing article is reasonable. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:31, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree the current version seems fine to me, although perhaps it might be more helpful if on the 3rd paragraph of the introduction where it says "Kingdom of England (including Wales)" if the "including" linked to the England and Wales article which talks about how they formed a single legal unit and Wales became part of the Kingdom of England. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article was nominated for Good Article assessment, however it is not ready to become a GA. I've removed the nomination so interested parties can do a lot more research and work on it, to eventually bring it up to or exceeding GA standards.

I did this as an IAR removal as in my view that was the most appropriate option in this case. If you disagree with my removal and re-nominate it straightaway, I—or somebody else—will "quick fail" it, and it will have failed GA nom in the Article History box—something that can be avoided.

I strongly urge against you doing so. Please work on the article (much) further before renominating.

A few problems with the article and with recent changes: * The GA assessment process requires that nominations of articles with multiple maintenance tags, that are obviously still valid, be failed. The article has:

* Wholly uncited/unreferenced section tagged as such since July, 2008.

* Multiple {{fact}} tags.

 Done Fixed all that :)

• The 'Nomenclature' section is simplistic and an embedded list; ditto the 'Engineering and innovation' subsection.

Finished the Engineering and innovation section :)

• The 'References' section shows a real mess of bare links and a myriad of different formats.

* Poor sourcing. Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable third-party secondary sources.

Used numerous alternative sources; see diffs.

* worldstatesmen.org states on its webpage it's "an online encyclopedia" - that's a tertiary source.

 Done Replaced with alternative and better reference in the form of a book. Cheers. Imperat§ r^(Talk) 00:40, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

* clairethornton.com website states she is a fiction author of historical romance novels. If you're writing on historical matters in an article use appropriate authoritative secondary sources, such as history books published by university presses or peer-reviewed academic journal articles, ideally those specialising in the specific topic area.

• academon.com paper. While there are indeed many MA theses and PhD dissertations on this topic, usually one does not use theses and dissertations unless there are no other sources available. In this case, that is not true. There is published scholarly material on English history. Second, that is an essay selling website; it is far from being an appropriate source.

• I actually wanted to ask; the above articles, even if the general type is far from appropriate, these specific links seem to be fine. I'll see if I can find a replacement reference, though. Cheers. Imperat§ r^(Talk) 00:40, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

There is currently no technical requirement a nominator has worked on the article they submit for assessment. (See also GA criteria and advice for nominators.) However, particularly for larger articles, it is generally better the nominator has worked on the article over quite some time, rather than under 24hrs. Thank you. –Whitehorse1 11:06, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Fixed many of the above; I've now worked on it for a few days and more than 10 edits. Still, I don't feel this article is ready for GA; could you provide more advice and problems that I could resolve for this article? Cheers. Imperat§ r^(Talk) 00:40, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Border Description

England shares land borders with Scotland to the north, Wales to the west and the North Sea, Irish Sea, Celtic Sea, Bristol Channel and English Channel.

How does it have a land border with the North Sea...

Maybe something like the following would be better?

England is bordered by Scotland to the north, Wales to the west and the North Sea, Irish Sea, Celtic Sea, Bristol Channel and English Channel. Wgh001 (talk) 05:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

No objections form me looks to be an improvement --Snowded (talk) 07:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Can you do it? I can not edit this page for some reason --Wgh001 (talk) 20:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Done - the article is semi-protected and you have not been around long enough to count as "established"!!!

I believe you mean autoconfirmed :-) Fribbler (talk) 22:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

TaWgh001 (talk) 05:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

My bad; while I was revising the thesis, I copyedited it from an obsolete previous version and didn't notice the "land" part :) cheers, Imperat§ r^(Talk) 00:13, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

"celtic sea"? Never heard of that. Wouldn't "The Atlantic Ocean" be better? Stutley (talk) 20:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Celtic Sea might help you out --Snowded (talk) 20:20, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I had already read that and noted the following: "the residents on the western coast [of Great Britain] don't refer to it as such". Stutley (talk) 21:03, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Now, here's a funny thing: the residents on the western coast of Great Britain don't refer to where they live as the 'western coast [of Great Britain]'. So I wouldn't take too much notice of that. I haven't looked, but I'll bet there isn't a citation for that statement. Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 22:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

A phrase first coined in the last century which almost nobody uses is better than "the Atlantic Ocean" which almost everybody does use and have done so for centuries? Stutley (talk) 07:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, yes. The article Celtic Sea says 'The northern portion of this sea [the Celtic Sea] had previously been considered as part of Saint George's Channel and the southern portion as an undifferentiated part of the "Southwest Approaches" to Britain.' rather than "the Atlantic Ocean". Daicaregos (talk) 07:52, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

It's a nonsense name that no one uses. The article on Wales uses the Atlantic Ocean (though I suspect that will change as soon as you've read this...). Stutley (talk) 07:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

No mention of the traditional borders!

No mention of Hadrians Wall in the Roman period, one of the longest walls in the world and a traditional defining point of where England ends and Scotland begins (even if not strictly true). Similarly but not to such great extent, no mention of Offa's Dyke being built in the Dark Ages as a mark of ,traditionally, were England ends and Wales begins.Willski72 (talk) 10:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Both of those predated the existence of "England". Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:31, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

By that logic a large chunk of the early history should be got rid of, the Romans predate "England" the Dark Ages (or early Middle Ages) predate England). Hadrian's wall was built in the Roman period which is mentioned and Offa's Dyke was built in the early medieval period which is also mentioned. One was built by the Romans as a border of their lands (splitting Roman controlled England from the picts that made up Scotland in those days) and the other was built by Anglo-saxons to keep out the celtic Welsh. These things helped to CREATE England.Willski72 (talk) 19:40, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

e/c Just curious, like, but roughly what date do your history books say the Romans controlled England? And for how long? Daicaregos (talk) 19:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe the threshold for inclusion is verifiability. Can you verify these "traditional" borders of England with reputable sources? I'm not keen on the term "traditional" though - its very weasely and emotive. Also, it's a common misconception that the Romans only controlled (what were to become) England and Wales - they actually held sway over the majority of the Scottish Lowlands, upto the Antonine Wall, if not further. --Jza84 |  Talk  19:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Read the article! That tells you when the Romans controlled England. (If you want me to say it then, the Romans began their invasion of England in 43AD and Hadrain's wall was begun in 122AD under Emperor Hadrian! The end of Roman rule is officially classed as 410AD when Emperor Honorius told the Romano-Britains to defend themselves although by this point Hadrian's wall had been abandoned for a while and Picts had been raiding Northern England for many years). It wasnt called England at the time but, if the Romans are on the page already then you might as well put its biggest lasting structure (wall!) in the British Isles. The Romans did push North to the Antonine wall but if my history serves me it was made of wood, considered undefendable after relatively few years and abandoned. I agree that using the word "traditional" is not encyclopedic and could perphaps be replaced with another word that reflects their historical importance. If you follow the length of the wall and the border between England and Scotland you will see quite an astonishing similarity considering the almost 2000 year gap. Even if we were to abandon the traditional border thing, Hadrian's wall should be mentioned as being one of the biggest and oldest defensive walls in the world.Willski72 (talk) 22:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I can see where you're coming from now. The article does not tell you when the Romans controlled England, or that the Romans began their invasion of England in 43AD (I did check, just to make sure). The article says that the Romans invaded Britain in 43AD. England did not exist for many centuries after that event. This is an encyclopedia and the information needs to be as accurate as possible. This part of the history section has only been included to give some background to the Anglo-Saxon invasion and subsequent control of the parts of Britain that would become known as England. The historical information needs to be referenced through reliable sources. No reliable historian would suggest that the Romans invaded England, for example (well, perhaps David Starkey, but no-one else I can think of). Other articles discuss Hadrian's Wall and Offa's Dyke in great detail. Cheers, Daicaregos (talk) 22:22, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Ha! I reckon David Starckey would give it a go! I didnt realise that there were already articles on my two bugbears (my mistake) and i see your point, probably best to let this one lie then. If anyones desperate to know about them they can look at the respective articles. Thanks everyone!Willski72 (talk) 22:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Oldest Parliament/ary system

"England has the world's oldest parliamentary system," The Manx Tynwald is declared older. Is there something about the system as distinct from the Thing that makes the statement from the current vrsion of the text correct? Midgley (talk) 06:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Bad grammar/style

"Crime in England and Wales increased in the period between 1981 and 1995 though, since that peak, there has been an overall fall of 42% in crime from 1995 to 2006/7.[63] Despite the fall in crime rates, the prison population of England and Wales has almost doubled over the same period, to over 80,000, giving England and Wales the highest rate of incarceration in Western Europe at 147 per 100,000." would be better rewritten as: "Crime in England and Wales increased between 1981 and 1995, although it fell 42% overall from 1995 to 2006/7.[63] Despite this fall in crime rates, the prison population of England and Wales almost doubled during the same period to over 80,000: giving England and Wales the highest rate of incarceration in Western Europe at 147 per 100,000." Was the "peak" an all-time peak even greater than in Victorian times? If not, then it misleads. 78.146.17.231 (talk) 22:02, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree and I've made the edit accordingly, although I'm not thrilled by "1995 to 2006/7" - surely it should be in the format "1994/5 to 2006/7" or "1995 to 2007"? Perhaps someone who has the time could check the source.

Re "peak", yes, clarification is needed. It's not a very informative word if we don't specify whether it's an all-time peak, postwar peak, or whatever. Barnabypage (talk) 12:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Article of interest

Editors here may want to look into Constitutional status of Cornwall and Cornish Self Government Move and add to the merger talk.--130.243.155.229 (talk) 13:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Coat of arms

Snowded quite rightly questioned the use of the words "Royal coat of arms" and the associated image, I checked that England does indeed have a coat of arms independent of the references on this article and on Coat of arms of England - I thought A Complete Guide to Heraldry sufficient as it is states the arms a number of times in that book. I then put the image back and changed the words to "coat of arms" which can be seen in this version, which I think makes this part of the page right - note that the link under the coat of arms goes to the Coat of arms of England page and not "Royal Coat of Arms" as it did before (although the link redirected to Coat of arms of England anyway). If the version I left it at isn't the correct, could someone explain why not?--Alf ^melmac 05:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

If you provide the page references to what is a long book it it might be possible to validate the claim. The article you reference makes it clear that these are the Royal Arms, they link back to the identity of England with the King, and the use of England to cover Britain. Wales and Scotland do not have a coat of arms (although Wales has one recently created) in the info box which is also relevant here. --Snowded ^TALK 05:30, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I see it was raised at Talk:England/GA1 which notes that it has no current official usage, which is a fair point, and in which case both the image and the descriptor need to vanish. Pages I checked (for your interest) are 136 where it mentioned when used in canton (usually top left quarter), 181 - a page about heraldic lions "The lions in the quartering for England in the Royal coat of arms are "the lions passant guardant in pale", 182 where it described as both the Royal arms and "the three lions passant guardant of England", and 274 where it is mentioned as being two quarters of a shield "gules, three lions passant guardant in pale or (for England). I occasionally meet with one the officer of arms, I will ask if it was ever codified by them and whether there is a publicly available record of such if it is the case.--Alf ^melmac 05:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

England is not a country

Its not England but United Kingdom which is a country. [2]. So suggesting to remove the reference as country in the introduction. Please reply in case of conflict. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aravind V R (talk • contribs) 13:50, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Go and read Countries of the United Kingdom. This has been debated, England is a country so the the UK. --Snowded ^TALK 14:19, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The source cited by Aravind contains (at least) one basic and fundamental error - it confuses the concepts of "country" and "independent country". England is not an independent country, but it is nonetheless a country, to be more precise a constituent country. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The question is, how is part of a country called country itself? If England is a country and so are Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, then shouldn't the United Kingdom be considered as a Union of countris (like Europian Union)? Or if, the United Kingdom holds the ultimate command in the federal structure, then shouldn't England be called a state or province of UK?Aravind V R (talk) 09:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

England is in no way a "province" of the UK - it has no powers of government (unlike the powers devolved to Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland). The UK position is probably unique - it is in some senses a union, but it is also a sovereign nation state. All this has been discussed here many times, and is explained in many WP articles - I suggest you read them. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:54, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Nomenclature

What does this section add to the article? At the moment it's a list of names for England in other languages which I don't think helps the reader much. Is it even encyclopedic? Nev1 (talk) 12:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Could i suggest that the Georgian language be moved to the European languages section? Georgia is more usually considered a European country.78.149.198.37 (talk) 17:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

It's no longer an issue because, as there have been no objections here, I've removed the section. It was unreferenced and as I stated above I don't think it helped the reader much. Other opinions would be welcome and the edit can always be undone. Nev1 (talk) 17:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I reinstated it, you didn't get any support here (although I concede no objections. Better to tidy it up and bit and improve the formatting, but it has useful information, deletion is too drastic --Snowded ^TALK 17:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

In my view, a few short paragraphs of text, summarising the terminology used and showing some (but not all) examples, would be much more informative and encyclopedic than the current list. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, forgot to mention that I removed it per WP:BOLD. At the moment it smacks of original research and needs to be referenced. Well at least it got people talking. Nev1 (talk) 17:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

, its a mess at the moment but doesn't justify deletion and you were more than fair, raising it here first then being bold is fine. --Snowded ^TALK 17:35, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree the current list should go, no problems with something replacing it but not a list like that. What England is called in certain African languages is not important enough to be on this article. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Totally agree with Nev1, BritishWatcher and Ghymrtle. At the moment it's unsourced, so should/can go. Even if it was cited, is it notable? I think not. Not seen any other country with this, and certainly not a country article that's been through any formal assessment. --Jza84 |  Talk  18:26, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Jza, I think I am agreeing with Ghymrtle as well to quote "a few short paragraphs of text, summarising the terminology used and showing some (but not all) examples, would be much more informative and encyclopedic than the current list" --Snowded ^TALK 18:39, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm more of the inclination there are more important areas of the article that need sourcing and attention. If there is a really strong desire to keep this in the article, then sure, a paragraph might help. But I'm still not sure what function it serves. This is the English language WP afterall. and WP:COUNTRIES doesn't seem to recommend it as part of its FA-achieving layout. --Jza84 |  Talk  18:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Valid position, just pointing out that there is a position that it should be summarised down (Ghymrtle and myself), BW and Nev1 may or may not agree with that, all agree it should be cut down. Your first sentence was the one I was objecting too. --Snowded ^TALK 18:46, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I've had a first go - any thoughts? Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:57, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Works for me, and nothing there that couldn't be supported but citation if needed --Snowded ^TALK 20:05, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Much better, but it does require citations ("if needed" is an interpretation of WP:V I've not come across before, and I'm not a fan). I'm wondering though if the section couldn't be merged with Etymology and usage? Nev1 (talk) 20:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Well some things are easy to verify (the Welsh for English etc) to quote "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged". So if challenged there is nothing that cannot be cited. I'd be happy if if was merged as you suggest. --Snowded ^TALK 20:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I edited out the interWiki links to the England articles in the other language WPs - are they acceptable as citations in cases like this? If so I (or anyone else) could easily reinstate them. The problem with merging the section into "Etymology and usage" is that that section is the first one in the article, and readers approaching the article from the top down really won't want the contents of what is now the Nomenclature section at that point. I'd prefer to keep it lower profile, where it is - though looking at it now it could do with a few more tweaks. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Although the prose is a vast improvement, I'm still not sure what value this is adding to the page. --Jza84 |  Talk  20:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Lead

We're permitted to have four paragraphs for the lead section, and a major topic like England should, in my humble opinion, make use of this. As WP:LEAD requires us to give (wherever possible) a broad overview of the article, I want to propose we insert a third paragraph like (emphasis!):

In contrast to Scotland and Wales, England is a predominantly lowland country, although there are upland regions in the north (the Pennines, Lake District and Yorkshire Moors) and in the southwest (Bodmin Moor Exmoor, Dartmoor and the Mendip Hills). The population of England is concentrated in London and South East, as well as conurbations in North East England, North West England, and South and West Yorkshire, all of which expanded as major industrial regions during the 19th century.

Wales has something akin to this, and I think it would contribute to the lead being a little more encompassing of England as a topic. Up for revision and debate of course. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  18:40, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd be bold and put it in, it would balance the over emphasis on political history --Snowded ^TALK 20:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but it could do with a couple of tweaks, such as:

In contrast to Scotland and Wales, England is a predominantly lowland country, although there are upland regions in the north (including the Lake District, Pennines and Yorkshire Moors) and in the south and south west (including Dartmoor, the Cotswolds, and the North and South Downs). The population of England is concentrated in London and the South East, as well as conurbations in the Midlands, the North West, the North East and Yorkshire, all of which developed as major industrial regions during the 19th century.

Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:01, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Looks great. --Jza84 |  Talk  21:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Huh?

"England became a unified state in the year 927 and takes its name from the Angles, one of the Germanic tribes who settled there during the 5th and 6th centuries."

But wasn't England unified by Wessex? If so, some mention should be made of this to prevent confusion. 82.139.86.4 (talk) 20:58, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, yea. But at what point did the kings stop calling it Wessex and start calling it England? It's one of those things that has always baffled me - a West Saxon kingdom rises and unifies the country. They name it after another tribe???? Why'd it never become Saxland? or Wesland? Perhaps someone can be good enough to fill us in....! 81.187.49.29 (talk) 21:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Because the people were already called English - all of them, including the Saxons. ðarkuncoll 21:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

England, the name

Angle as a name of something visible only from the air (a "fish hook") is misleading.St.Trond (talk) 21:16, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Economics

This section states that there was a certain amount of beef exported "last year". Should this be changed? Mattbondy (talk) 01:25, 27 July 2009 (UTC)