Talk:Kosovo

"Majority is Ruled by"

I have a big problem with "Its majority is governed by the partially-recognised Republic of Kosovo". This is inaccurate statement in addition to being a POV to give an impression that the Government of Kosovo does not have legitimacy. Not a single government questions the legitimacy of the Kosovo government. Some countries, such as Serbia, question the legitimacy of Independence but not the legitimacy of the government. Unless strong evidence is provided to back up this, I plan to remove it.Ferick —Preceding undated comment added 04:19, 20 June 2009 (UTC).

Not sure if Serbia recognizes the government of republic of Kosovo. It's a fair statement since a lot of countries recognize only the UN authority.Mike Babic (talk) 07:42, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Don't really see the problem here. The majority of Kosovo is governed by the Republic of Kosovo. Said republic is partially recognized. The sentence conveys both pieces of information clearly and succinctly. Khajidha (talk) 05:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you have evidence to show that countries do not recognize the legitimacy of the Kosovo government? Again, its different from Independence. You can't really challenge the legitimacy of the government that was democratically elected. If they are legitimate for the majority they are legitimate for the minority as well, but that sentence suggests otherwise. Ferick (talk) 15:16, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

interesting law question. if A doesn't recognize C, does it recognize B which declared to govern C. 79.101.174.192 (talk) 20:04, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Ferick, what is your point? There is no "pov" in pointing out that the territory is different from the institutions of government. This is completely distinct from the question of legitimacy of the institutions of government. Institutinos may or may not be legitimate, but a territory is just a territory. --dab (𒁳) 11:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

How is the territory different from the institutions of the government? How is this even a relevant statement?

Simple put, this is the only "encyclopedia" which gets into these ridiculous debates. Simply put, it should not even be mentioned who controls the territory, as it is very obvious to normal people that the Kosovo government is in control of the territory. Even in the North the Kosovo police and EULEX have control over the borders, court houses etc.

But since the statement exists in the article, and some users feel the need to defend it, I would like to point out that the whole territory is controlled by the Kosovo govt. The UN mediates (latest UN meeting concluded that this is all the UN will do from now on), EULEX controls the court houses and borders in the North, and it reports directly to the Kosovo govt, who it is advising on these matters of rule of law.

In conclusion, the statement that "its majority is governed" is misleading. This needs to be changed, or removed. Good day, (Interestedinfairness (talk) 11:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)).

how many encyclopedias do you edit? Talkpages are editorial discussions, not articles. You have no idea of the "ridiculous debates" that take place within the editorial team of, say, Britannica, unless you are a member.

The point isn't moot. Governments come and go. For reasons of human territorial behavior, governments are usually tied to territory, although there are exceptions to this. The territory remains, the governing institutions change. Thus, "Italy" primarily refers to the Italian peninsula. Depending on historical context, this refers to the territory of the Italian Republic (since 1946), the Kingdom of Italy (1861–1946), a number of kingdoms before that, or yet another set of kingdoms even earlier.

This is a crucial distinction if you are at all looking at historical issues. It is irrelevant in the statement "I'm going on holiday in Italy" because the assumption is naturally that you go to current Italy, not to Late Medieval Italy. Any discussion of statehood, sovereignty and history must take into account the relation of government to governed territory.

Kosovo is de iure governed by the UN. It is de facto governed by the UNMIK and EULEX forces. Both UN and EULEX tolerate the government of the Republic of Kosovo to have a say, apparently in the expectation of a transition to a de facto sovereign government of the RoK over the next few years. I am not sure how you can claim that any government has de facto control over their territory if the country is actually run by international organisations. I fully expect the RoK to take over in the course of the next few years, and I personally don't mind if they do, but that's in the future. --dab (𒁳) 14:01, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Sir, you have no clue what you are talking about. Seriously. Very few people dispute the fact that Kosovo is de facto ruled by the government lead by Hashim Thaci. Only de jure par is disputed. Check your facts.24.185.39.181 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC).

Dab, why do you always try to punch above your weight? Check out the EULEX website; "we are not there to govern or rule". Thus your statement about Kosovo being "de facto" governed by the EULEX is false. I'm surprised that as an administrator you can just say these things without checking sources.

You clearly do not follow current events, but if you did, then you would know that the UN has re-configured its mission in Kosovo to less than 500 personnel.

is this a "historical issue", its very much a present issue; i.e. presently "Kosovo" is governed de facto by the govt. of the "RoK", helped along by EULEX and mediating with Serbs in Kosovo through UNMIK.

Why do you always have to be right, can't you just take it that some people know more about a topic than you do.

Interestedinfairness (talk) 00:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

If the United States recognizes Kosovo as a sov. state, who else are we waiting for to approve the state? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.159.182 (talk) 22:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Dispite what many Americans may believe; they are not the supreme, head, top, leader (which ever adjective you wish to use) country on this planet.--Île_flottante~Floating island (talk) 23:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The Ottoman period

This part of the article relies heavily on the work of Sima Cirkovic, a historian of no standing when compared to others, namely Malcolm and Judah, who both dispute her revisionist theories. The author is not reliable as per WP:V. Noel and Judah are a 100 times more verifiable and accurate sources to use.

I could rewrite this part of the article since I've worked quite a bit on the Viyalet of Kosova page and have a lot of background knowledge. Firstly, lets clarify two bits in the article which are incorrect:

The Great Serb Migration is a myth, conjured up in the 19th century to arouse nationalistic fervor (just have a look at the Wiki page, for an event so "profound" in Serbian history, you would expect a lot more written in the article). Secondly, the "slave boys" taken by the sultan were nearly all Albanian and not Serbian as the article and source make out. (source: Bernard Lewis).

This article gives a negative portrayal of the Ottoman period when in fact the citizens of "Kosovo" (Serb and Albanian alike), benefited greatly from their arrival. This is because of a Serb disdain for Turks formulated about 500 years ago but should nevertheless have no bearing on this article. We're not hear to feed ultra-nationalist lies. Comments welcome, as always --- Interestedinfairness (talk) 23:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Interestedinfairness, your efforts are wasted here. Articles History of Kosovo, History of Medieval Kosovo, History of Medieval Serbia, Battle of Kosovo, History of Ottoman Kosovo, First Bulgarian Empire and many more need to be changed to conform to your POV, so good luck. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 00:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Brutaldeluxe. Interestedinfairness, just give up, everyone is tired of your POV pushing. --Cinéma C 05:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply to the comments and cease the personal attacks. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 06:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)).

I have reverted "Interestedinfairness"' edits, shoving Cite needed tags inside of some references and after other references. It's clearly disruptive behavior, and shows yet again, his agenda. I think it may be time to push for a topic ban, applied broadly. ThuranX (talk) 07:21, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

As per WP:V the sources are unreliable. That is the point I am making. Stop threatening me, no rules at all are being broken. You prove to me that Sima Cirkovic is a reliable source and then the Cite needed tags will not be necessary. Do not come on here like your the boss of Wikipedia. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 07:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)).

Second the motion for a topic ban. The time is long past. --Athenean (talk) 07:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC

You've already tried that approach and as I recall it didn't go to well. Please stay on topic and stop messing around. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 07:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)).

Will somebody really discuss the point on Ottoman period here, Wiki rules WP:V WP:RS etc do mean anything to you guys. Don't turn the topic into personal discussion. Just stick to the topic, references and scholars. Thanks Aigest (talk) 07:47, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Whether Ćirković is a reliable source depends on the topic in question and the origin of the articles (eg. her article published in a certified journal readily considered reliable would be adequate, but if drawn from a blog/forum where she has left remarks, then obviously not). But again, it depends on what it is that one is trying to prove. Take Holocaust denial: if one were to state that the holocaust was a hoax and then present an article published by Stormfront, it would be dismissed instantly and laughed off. If however one were to state on the Stormfront page that the organisation itself doubts the holocaust and then uses that same article, it would be acceptable because it does stand as evidence to support the presented statement. The anti-Serb propaganist, shill and apologist Noel Malcolm not only has a catalogue of bad coverage to add to his positive portfolio but he is also renouned for producing erroneous information. He would cause greater controversy than those who deny the holocaust if only Balkan affairs were as sensitive among the architects of New World Order, but they are not so he can get away with publishing books stating how the "Serbs are not a real nation, their southerners are all corrupted Albanians and their northerners Hungarians; brainwashed into a new identity by Bulgarians and Croats"; people would believe him if they don't know any better. And as for neutrality, well, I'd like to see Malcolm ciriticised by an Albanian faction. Only then can we start to consider him being "neutral". His works are a joke, he comments are in ignorance of centuries of codified documentation. Evlekis (talk) 13:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

You shouldn't rush in conclusions about his work without reading other scholars opinion first

while Serb historians cite a document issued by the Emperor on 6 April 1690 as an "invitation" to come to the Hungary, Malcolm, referring to the original Latin text, shows than the letter urged the Serbs to rise up against the Ottomans, and specifically "not to desert" their ancestral lands - rather than the opposite of an invitation.(page 206) Thinking about Yugoslavia: scholarly debates about the Yugoslav breakup and the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo by Sabrina P. Ramet Publisher Cambridge University Press, 2005 ISBN 0521851513, 9780521851510 link [1]

You should also know that Malcolm (1998) was not the first of scholars discovering this myth (invitation letter) here you have another since 1970:

A latter day myth of some influence was to insist, mistakenly, that the Serbs were invited by the emperor to leave their homesteads and settle in Habsburg land on the promise of his favor. In fact, they cam north as a consequence of his defeat.(page 580) The New Cambridge Modern History: The Rise of Great Britain & Russia, 1688-1715/25 by J. S. Bromley Editor J. S. Bromley Publisher CUP Archive, 1970 ISBN 0521075246, 9780521075244 link [2]

So things are not so clear as you think here. The fact remains that the "invitation" letter has been misinterpreted (POV pushing myth) by Serb historians and this seriously influence their credibility here. Aigest (talk) 14:47, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Apart from Noel Malcolm being a certified propagandist, his work is not original either. His writing invariably shadows that already published by other authors. Those authors, where Balkan affairs are the issue, are often Albanian. I have rushed into no conclusion; I have simply read his verses in which I have known the information to be incorrect. If the US-led war in Iraq in 2003 hadn't been so well known but you personally did know about it, how would you respond to a shill purporting to be a historian when he tries to convince you that the war didn't happen, that Saddam was never hanged and that he still controls Iraq? To my knowledge, the Serbian migrations to Hungarian controlled territory had dated as far back as the 14th century. These are recorded as being the result of an invitation. The events of 1690 probably do suggest that locals were encouraged to uprise, but then I have never read of Serbs describing the opposite. No nation which speaks of its history is flawless and 100% truthful, and it is often easy to point out dubious claims. That however doesn't make Malcolm & co. 100% truthful, because there are multiple ways of "exposing" your less agreeable race by fiddling with facts and producing accounts based on selective evidence. Malcolm is renouned for this. Furthermore, Malcolm likes to dabble with the international "legal" system. The word "legal" opens a can of worms at first mention. So shady is the topic of international law that nobody can dictate pure straightforward facts. He states that Kosovo never legally entered the Serb kingdom after the First Balkan War. He forgets however that the aftermath of the battles also resulted in an independent Albania. The borders of Albania were recognised as a result of the same treaty which recognised Serbia's inclusion of Kosovo after Serbs (and Greeks) were instructed to withdraw from present-day Albania. So either Malcolm is suggesting that the inception of present-day Albania was also not legal, or that whilst Albania was legal, it bordered territory which was still a part of the Ottoman Empire. Which of the previous two pathetic suggestions that imbecile actually believes to be the case in his fairy-tale world, I don't know. I do know however that the Ottoman Empire recognised all lost territory to new countries in 1914; only Noel Malcolm disagrees. Today, it is like saying that "Eritea is still a part of Ethiopia legally even though Ethiopia recognises its independence!"

As for Interestedinfairness, he has claimed that Malcolm is "100 times more verifiable" than other sources. Now this user does live up to his name: interesting! Sure we can find a few half-asleep journalists to praise Malcolm when they don't know any better, but Malcolm is suddenly verifiable? That means we can find evidence to suggest that what he says is true. Well, find me evidence to suggest Malcolm's comments to Macedonian reporters in Skopje during the 1999 NATO bombing that had NATO not acted, Milošević was planning to take Macedonia; and that the whole campaign was "to protect Macedonia's national interests." Macedonians just want to know from which lunatic assylum did this inmate Malcolm escape? Evlekis (talk) 18:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Here is another failed attempt to quote Noel Malcolm by "friend" of Interestedinfairness: [3] Evlekis (talk) 18:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Evlekis, what did you mean by this statement, "He would cause greater controversy than those who deny the holocaust if only Balkan affairs were as sensitive among the architects of New World Order..." ? Who are these "architects" who determine the sensitivity/importance of certain topics? Hobartimus (talk) 18:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

The answer is: they who yield most influence in the world, the top governments; their officials, the wealthy etc. It was only an example. Personally I have no opinion on the events of WWII, I don't get involved because I haven't had enough time to read into it. My point was that if someone denied the September 11th attacks, you'd think he'd gone round the bend. Mr.N.M denies other known events. Evlekis (talk) 19:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I cannot take seriously any allegations about citation and reliable sources when the counter to the use of a source is that the author is part of a vast hidden 'new world order' conspiracy. As such, since that's the primary objection to the use of Malcolm as a source, I see no further reason to continue discussing the source. Malcolm's info comes from his well reviewed articles on the topic, As quoted above, other serious scholars refer to his work in constructive ways. Therefore, he meets my expectations of a reliable scholarly source. ThuranX (talk) 19:59, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. The references to "new world order" were off-topic and in reference to something else. I hadn't been accusing anyone of conspiring to protect their interests. Noel Malcolm's publications can be used as an external source. His "good reviews" come from sources with no knowledge of his topics, not from those with knowledge of their own. Their views of him depend on which side of the conflict they sit, and that must surely rule out neutrality. The "scholarly sources" may quote him but many sources also quote the conventional statistics which refute Malcolm. May I also warn about the dangers of using him: we would have to rewrite dozens of articles, that means everything Serbia related because as far as this man is concerned, their entire history is a "myth"; he has denied their involvement in the 1389 war in Kosovo, and exaggerated all cases aginst that nation. According to Malcolm in his books: Serbs are perpetually the party at fault, and always wrong; whether morally in their aspirations, or casually if discussing their historical adventures. To use Malcolm, you might as well restore the following edits: [4], [5], [6]. All are tributes to the propagandist. Evlekis (talk) 20:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Here's what I take from your comments. Malcolm's supporters are ignorant, his critics are all geniuses, and perfectly accurate, and only you, and other pro-serb editors, are qualified to judge what makes reliable scholarship as regards this article. You compound that with 'Using his sources would be a lot of work.' You decry him as opposing an entire version of history, but we have an outsider with no particular agenda using facts and evidence, against an insider's cultural version of history. Few cultures actively embrace the parts of their history where they were in the wrong, and so build up a version that justifies their actions. I'm more inclined to believe an outsider's compiled evidence, especially when well regarded after review, than an insider's stamping foot and insistence that 'that's how it was.' ThuranX (talk) 23:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe there is a misunderstanding of how to use the sources here. If an author (Malcolm in this case) claims one thing (example...the original latin text translation) than the others who oppose him must say that his clam is not true since..(example...the original latin text is translated in different way from that of Malcolm) otherwise if you accuse the author for POV that is a personal attack, (attack the sources not the author is the moto here). So in this case if Evlekis thinks that Malcolm translation of the letter and its contribution to myth is not false than he should find other scholars who claim that things against Malcolm work, and bring them here. In any case just as ThuranX pointed out, other scholars refer to his work in a constructive ways,(eg if you take the time to read Sabrina P. Ramet above book, you would see that Malcolm uses more sources and is more scientific in treating them than some other scholars and we must remember that the book is about scholar debates in Bosnia and Kosovo) so even in my opinion he is a WP:RS secondary source. Aigest (talk) 21:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

What a ridiculously convoluted, incomprehensible WP:LAWYER-type argument ("If an author claims...then the others...). Noel Malcolm is anything but a neutral source. He should only be used in Kosovo related articles with extreme caution. --Athenean (talk) 21:19, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

If a source is respected by experts, then it's a good source is a WP:LAWYER argument? It's common sense, good research, and so on. Are we really going to endure these annoying drive-by policy shots in lieu of serious discourse? Yet another editor I feel comfortable ignoring in this matter. ThuranX (talk) 23:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I was referring to the first part of Aigest's argument ("If an author claims...then the others...), not the latter part. --Athenean (talk) 00:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

That's just as stupid. 'Refute a good source with equally good sources' is a solid principle of good, balanced, objective writing on a topic. Mocking it as WP:LAWYER tells me that for you, there's a 'right' source, and then there's liars, and anyone who doesn't support your POV, and thus, your sources, is also a liar. I reiterate. not worth any more attention. POV warring isn't going to improve this article. ThuranX (talk) 02:19, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Wrong again. If a crank writes a bunch of nonsense, no one "has" to refute him. Noel Malcolm is a highly partisan source. Thus, if Noel Malcolm claims something that no one bothers to refute, that doesn't mean it's true (which is what Aigest is claiming). That said, I don't care for your tone, and since I'm not really interested in your opinion, this conversation ends here. Goodbye. --Athenean (talk) 02:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Who's analysis of Balkan historiography are you basing this opinion on? Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

To:Interestedin I say this with respect, get a consensus on your edits before editing major parts, your past edits are POV, disgusting and racist, however i hope that this will change. Save us a lot of energy and be mindful of conflicting views, or you might be blocked. This doesnt mean that you shouldnt edit on wikipedia, it just means that people are noticing a large number of pov edits coming from your account and this could lead you to be blocked. I welcome the Albanian editors yet you need to be mindful.Rex Dominator (talk) 07:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

A question to all contributors here. Are travel guide books to be considered as WP:RS? I see some of them used on Ottoman period, while in my opinion they don't meet the criteria of RS for an encyclopedia. Other books or sources for this period should be used instead of them confirming or not the claims backed by travel guide references. Aigest (talk) 07:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion other subtopics not represented in Ottoman period are:

• Timar system in Kosovo, effects
• Devşirme system in Kosovo, effects
• Islamization process in Kosovo, effects
• Economy of Kosovo in that period, main cities, production, export import etc.

Just a short sentence for each of this subtopics would improve this section. What do you think? Aigest (talk) 07:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I like the idea of adding all that stuff about Islam "Section:Ottoman Kosovo (1455 to 1912)" yet the "Section:Early history (before 1455)" in which the Serbs controlled Kosovo is relatively small. The whole history section is baised since it under-represents Serbs. For example Serbs controlled Kosovo from the 700 AD to 1540 (Raška,Serbian Empire,Moravian Serbia,Serbian Despotate)yet the history section doesnt talk about that much and is biased.Rex Dominator (talk) 08:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Let's concentrate on the topic Ottoman Kosovo here. My idea is not to add stuff about Islam but to show the effects of the Ottoman administration in Kosovo area. Timar Devşirme Islamization happened throughout Ottoman period (in all Ottoman Empire) they were the essence of Ottoman state and administration, and they greatly influenced Kosovo region, also as I see from the article the economy (main cities, what kind of production, trade, taxes etc) is not represented at all in any section of the article (except the actual economy section) while in my opinion they are to be mentioned, not in detailed way but within a sentence in each period. Aigest (talk) 08:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

All of those (other subtopics not represented in Ottoman period) are great addictions to the article. However.. we have a huge problem with a bias in the history section since 800 years of Serb history (700 AD to 1540) are under-represented (in two poorly worded sentences). This topic has a lot of bias since its controversial. Every progressive edit helps reach our goal, to have a NPOV article. So by all means add facts in the Ottoman section however please try to keep the article balanced since a huge Ottoman section will skew the article towards a pro islamic bias which is not reflective of history. It would better the article, and free it from bias in the history section, if some, simple, additions were make about the 800 years of Serbian history. Rex Dominator (talk) 09:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the sections should not be so long. I will try to cut off repetitive or useless info. Longer edits could be made in the main articles not in this summary. Aigest (talk) 09:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I am stopping for the moment. Does everybody agree with my edits? Plz give feedback Aigest (talk) 09:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

ThuranX
I haven't visited this talk page since yesterday evening (local time) and there has been a lot of development and I see that Noel Malcolm hasn't been mentioned in the latest few edits. However I feel it necessary to defend myself from your attack.
Firstly, I accept that you are a neutral editor whose own background is clearly outside the area in question. In other words, you are very welcome here and your views are highly valued. At the same time, nobody is expecting you to personally know the ins and outs of the disputes. Now I will not challenge you with issues regarding Noel Malcolm because to do so would be harassment on my part in interrogating a user who is clearly not expected to produce the answers. But you have severely mistaken me in every way imaginable. I do originate from these parts, atleast by background if not birth, so many issues are everyday phenomena for me; however I do not identify as Serb, and I am certainly not Pro-Serb. My position in all conflicts is between me and my conscience and I have never discriminated another individual who has disclosed his position. The problem is when this person starts to base his views on scanty and one-sided evidence. You don't have to be an expert on Kosovo or a doctor in nuclear physics to deduce that Noel Malcolm is totally favourable to every Albanian and disagreeable to all Serbs. But it takes an absolute sucker not to put his finger on his head and ask "why is this?" Perhaps if there had been items of blatant Serb propaganda which itself quoted Noel Malcolm to enhance the campaign, things may have been different. Maybe, if natural Albanian propagandists had at one point been critical of Malcolm - accusing him of representing the Serb angle - surely then he could have been taken as objective. Conflict is precipitated by opposing sentiment among parties. As such, it is impossible for any commentator to produce a report which is favourable to every faction. Therefore, the only way to be objective (and to subsequently appear neutral) is to be hated by the heavyweights of all opposing factions.
Experts: these do not need to praise each other across the board. If I know the conventional order the Roman alphabet from A to Z, I do not need to consult David Crystal to see if his sequence is the same as mine. Malcolm is a fellow at Oxford and they in turn form a part of the same professional elite as that in Cambridge. Now the prupose of a historian is to investigate historical activitity and to explain the findings to your generation. So if a "scholar" has consulted the works of Malcolm then how could he/she have been an expert in the first place? And if Malcolm has recounted a version of events already uncovered by another historian, then how does he come to be an "expert"? In the end of the day, he is one man with one opinion.
Comment by ThuranX: Malcolm's supporters are ignorant, his critics are all geniuses, and perfectly accurate, and only you, and other pro-serb editors, are qualified to judge what makes reliable scholarship as regards this article.
Answer: Nobody claimed that a critic of Malcolm is a genius. However with regards to his supporters not being ignorant, I am afraid that this would be difficult for me to explain to you without giving examples. So to put it simply, Malcolm has never uttered a sentence which does not contain a factual error of some kind; and for being in the Balkans, these errors are obvious. Of course his Balkan-based supporters will not cite these errors because it is harmful to their defence to do so. His words tickle their ears and they love the sound of them. Most of these errors are not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact. Malcolm, when it suits him, likes to question these facts. However, that then becomes a matter of his own personal opinion which is worth the same as every other person's. In his Guardian article last year, he was presented with high regard. But if they knew better, then why did they need to consult him? And how can they be classed as "experts" when praising him? His "good words" have come from newspapers/magazines/journals. Other positive feedback has come from professionals at the same level who either liked the fact that he agreed with them, or had to consult him in the first place because they never knew the information he was producing. Either way, it rules out expert and neutrality.
In my own defence: I am not Pro-Serb and have never put forward an article favourable to Serbs and said "Let's use this!" The areas where I have challenged Malcolm have been on obvious cases: Malcolm denies the legality of Serbia's inclusion of Kosovo in 1912; I respond not by producing Serbian Radical Party booklets telling of Kosovo perpetually belonging to Serbia, but with a reference to the treaty which demarcated Serbia's new borders and with a citation confirming the Ottoman recognition of it. It is as easy as that. I gave no firm views, offered no opinion, and stepped into no dispute. I am not anti-Albanian, just anti-Noel Malcolm. But if he is so good, then use him, but as another user said: use him with caution. Evlekis (talk) 11:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Wall of text which basically reinforces exactly what I said - You think you're right and everyone else is wrong, and you object to Malcolm's material because you see it as anti-serb, which violates your POV. You continue to ignore that other scholars cite him and have been demonstrated here to take his work seriously and respectfully, which says to me that despite your loud protests, you do have a POV to push - Malcolm and Albanians bad, Serbs good. ThuranX (talk) 17:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Wall of text? A great place for you to hide. I'll take a bet; either you never read it or you scanned it. I have answered every one of your queries if full detail. Three times now you have proven to completely miscomprehend me. You accuse me of loud protest and POV pushing. What POV pushing would this be? I explicitly declared my position as not being Serbian and you will find no evidence among my 10,000 edits since 2005 where I have advocated using Serbian blogs; where I have amended text to conform to Serb rhetoric; or where I have sided in a content dispute with the Pro-Serb POV. You just revise this section and show me where I took part in the "disputed territory" vs "country" row to push for the former. I have explained the implications of using Malcolm. I have refuted the "expert" factor, as well as the alleged NPOV of the subject. I have only criticised his "opinion over fact" prose, and have not recommended pro-Serb POV alternatives. I have never disclosed my own POVs. Once again, a user tries to be objective and is accused of Serb POV-pushing for opposing the use of a biased commentator, not just any biased one but one noted for his notoriety. There have been countless non-Serbs whose position has been sympathetic with the Serbian angle and they too have had positive feedback; they too are academics with their works appreciated and cited by highly educated. Heard of Noam Chomsky? Yet do you see me countering Noel Malcolm with pro-Serb literature? I suggested we use Malcolm with caution. Now is that POV pushing? Evlekis (talk) 21:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Do others find me edits ok? My proposal for the rest is:

Adiministration (but not a new topic it is for the sake of grouping here no new section)

• Timar system in Kosovo, effects in the Kosovo administration 1-2 sentences

Demographic

• Devşirme system in Kosovo, effects in the Kosovo population 1 sentence
• Islamization process in Kosovo, effects in the Kosovo population 1 sentence
• Population migrations in area my proposal is to mention it with 1-2 sentences "According to some....while according to others ..." type. If readers want a more detailed view there is Great Serb Migration article in which we can further specify it. So we can get rid of long section and remain NPOV

Economic

• Main cities, local production, 1 sentence
• Trade etc 1 sentence

Political

• Local uprisings(1689-90, others) 1 sentence
• League of Prizren 1-2 sentences
• Uprising of 1912(which ended Ottoman rule) up to 1rst Balkan war 1-2 sentences

The last one ends the section (Ottoman rule), while the background of Balkan War and war itself are explained in more detailed way in the next section. No need to put them in this section. It will make it much larger and it makes no sense to the topic title. Aigest (talk) 12:53, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

What do you think of this sentence regarding the islamization in Kosovo.

Although few Turks actually settled in Kosovo during Ottoman rule, many Albanians converted from Christianity to Islam, in contrast most Serbs remained faithful to the Serbian Orthodox church. (page 124) Peacemakers in action: profiles of religion in conflict resolution by David Little, Tanenbaum Center for Interreligious Understanding, Richard C. Holbrooke Editors David Little, Tanenbaum Center for Interreligious Understanding Contributor Richard C. Holbrooke Edition illustrated Publisher Cambridge University Press, 2007 ISBN 0521853583, 9780521853583 link here [7]

While in the reference below the article we can put part of the text ... Such conversions were technically voluntary, but strong economic incentives existed...etc what do you guys think?

Another more detailed source would be Religion and the politics of identity in Kosovo by Gerlachlus Duijzings Edition illustrated Publisher C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2000 ISBN 1850653925, 9781850653929 here the link [8] Aigest (talk) 13:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Aigest, your edits are fine, except for the phrase "it was internally expanded" which left me a bit baffled. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 14:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks;). Yep I agree on that, I left it because I wasn't sure of what the author meant with that. I'll make some further edits today hope they are fine too:) Aigest (talk) 07:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Addition to to See Also section

International Court of Justice advisory opinion on the legality of Kosovo's unilaterally proclaimed independence and Kosovo independence precedent, are well developed articles that i enjoyed reading. Please let me know if you agree with adding them to the See Also section. Please respond with, Agree or Disagree and or a reason.Rex Dominator (talk) 23:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

• Disagree: These are neither published by Noel Malcolm nor Tim Judah and therefore they must be items of Serb propaganda (joking, seriously, if it involves ICJ I Agree) ----Evlekis (talk) 23:35, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
• Agree. Won't do any harm, International Court of Justice advisory opinion on the legality of Kosovo's unilaterally proclaimed independence will probably enter Wiki history as the most convoluted article title ever. Except "Harry Potter and the extremely convoluted and contrived film title involving made up names of fictitious magical creatures", perhaps. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 00:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
• Agree and might I add a LOL at Evlekis' comment.. funny :) Of course, it won't do any harm. And might I compliment Rex Dominator's way of proposing changes to the article, unlike Interestedinfairness' method - changing it unilaterally, then pushing his POV on the talk page... --Cinéma C 00:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
• Disagree --- Pointless to include the two proposed articles when others of more relevance and prominence to Kosovo exist. The Dardani, Battle of Kosovo and Kosovo Province articles would be more appropriate candidates for inclusion. Interestedinfairness (talk) 01:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
• Agree Fully relevant. --Athenean (talk) 02:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Let's include those as well then. --Cinéma C 02:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Go for it, you have my backing. Interestedinfairness (talk) 02:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, propose those in a separate tab and I'll agree, but do you now change your vote for the ones proposed here? --Cinéma C 04:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

• Agree, Disagree with IiF's proposals. ThuranX (talk) 06:49, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I added links to articles as proposed by RD. I think further comment is probably needed on IIF's proposed additions to the See Also section. BalkanFever 06:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

• Disagree On second thoughts, this article should follow the example of others here on Wikipedia and have the Outline of Kosovo link only. Interestedinfairness (talk) 10:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

History

Although we all agree that history is what makes Kosovo unique, the history section of the article does not appear to be in line with well-written articles about other countries, such as the United States, Germany, France, etc. I would suggest that the history section be rewritten or edited thoroughly, not to represent nationalist point of views, but to offer a concise approach of what happened in Kosovo throughout centuries. The whole history section must not exceed 2,500 words and it should focus on the Kosovo and its people, rather than the sensitive ethnic divide between the Albanians and the Serbs.--Getoar TX (talk) 02:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

And who do you think the Kosovo people are, if they're not Albanians and Serbs? Are they Martians maybe? :P --Cinéma C 04:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

No, of course they are either Albanian, Serbs, or something else. But the point here is that we should focus on the history of Kosovo and not nationalist POV. How could you omit Pjeter Bogdani and call this neutral?--Getoar TX (talk) 18:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Restructering

The article needs to be restructured from after the history section in order to meet Wikipedia quality standards. Its current state is highly fragmented and convoluted. For example, the UN administration period; Administration by the United Nations; and Provisional Institutions of Self-Government can be combined to convey the same message in a less tangled way. After the history section, the article would follow this structure;

• United Nations administration Period
• Declaration of independence and the Republic of Kosovo
• EULEX and Rule of Law
• Government and Politics

(Interestedinfairness (talk) 02:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)).

Kosovo is still under UN administration, according to United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244, which is in effect. Therefore, the UN administration section should include the "Declaration of independence" (covering info concerning the self-proclaimed "Republic of Kosovo") and "EULEX" sections beneath it. --Cinéma C 04:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Lets be realistic here. The current parliament of the "Republic of Kosovo" was operating under UN 1244 when they proclaimed independence. Serbia claims they had no legal basis for that and is getting an advisory opinion in the international court of law. We will have to wait until the legal verdict is reached.Rex Dominator (talk) 05:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

So we need to wait for the ICJ opinion until we can construct a less fragmented and convoluted article? (Interestedinfairness (talk) 09:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)).

What you are proposing is to ignore international law and present the situation as if just because Kosovo's government declared independence, UNSCR1244 is no longer relevant, even though it's still in effect. Restructuring the article in such a way would suggest that the UN administration period ended the moment Kosovo declared independence. --Cinéma C 03:35, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

That is incorrect, and your deliberately holding up discussion, as per usual. I will repeat it again for you; what I am proposing is to make the article less fragmented and convoluted, by following a logical chain of events; the UN administration period, followed by provincial institutions of self governance. Kosovo's proclamation of independence does not suggest that UN resolution 1244 is nullified, your the only one making that paranoid assumption. What is in fact relevant is the significance of the event. This is about restructuring the article, not about accommodating your nationalistic preconceptions. Any serious users want to discuss? Interestedinfairness (talk) 00:41, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Alleged bias

This is bizarre.

Kosovo is not a region. Kosovo is a country, recognized by and rejected by Serbia which still claims as its territory. This is the most neutral stance. The current description is a clear Serbia POV. Cinema's arguments are not valid since cinema is very biased. Most of its contribution in the wikipedia are pro-serb and quoting proserb media! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spanishboy2006 (talk • 17:05, 17 July 2009

(Redirected from User:Reinoutr) is abusing wikipedia. Edit warring policy is clearly stated on this article.

Changing Kosovo from a disputed region, to an autonomous province. Please, this abuse is unacceptable. Spanishboy2006 (talk • 17:10, 17 July 2009

Dude, I explained myself on your talk page and apparently you revert me so fast you did not even bother to read what I actually wrote. I changed it from "disputed region" to "disputed autonomous region", specifically to emphasize that it is autonomous and thus largely independent. Instead of discussing, you just complain, which truly is getting us nowhere. --Reinoutr (talk) 17:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

This makes no sense, whatsoever. I am tagging this article as disputed.--Getoar TX (talk) 18:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

great, another revert warrior. What happened to article probation? We have discussed this, and consensus is clear. If you take it upon yourself to revert against consensus, you may be blocked without further warning. --dab (𒁳) 19:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Might I suggest the usage of the phrase 'diputed region of partial self government"? As this reflects the serb controled areas to the north, and the kosovar controled areas to the south and also gives the reader the knowledge that the area is disputed. --Île_flottante~Floating island (talk) 23:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I assumed good faith when the word "autonomous" was added, and am in favor of using it. However, "Partial self-governance" would imply that there is a force outside of the Kosovo parliament which also governs the entity. This is weasel-wording and creates more problems, I feel. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 09:28, 18 July 2009 (UTC)).

Not really, as northern kosovo is de facto governed by serbia. --Île_flottante~Floating island (talk) 14:08, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

That is not strictly true. North Kosovo is left alone by Priština as if to function as an autonomous region. Its Serb majority population in turn observe Belgrade's authority by continuing the use Serbian currency, keeping Serbian number plates on their vehicles, voting in Serbian elections whilst bocotting anything initiated from Priština and other similar activities. The Serbs of North Kosovo are a majority but not the exclusive population, Albanians also live in those municipalities all be it in smaller numbers and they adhere to the rule as laid down in the Kosovan capital. Even though the Kosovan government leaves the region alone, it is still impenetrable by Belgrade's security forces; the region is within the borders of an entity recognised by 62 countries at present. That also means that for anyone in Central Serbia to gain access to North Kosovo or vice versa, they are compelled to cross a checkpoint. Like all border crossings, the checkpoint has two sections (one for each entity); and the Kosovan checkpoint is manned by EULEX/KFOR staff. North Kosovo if anything is a free territory left to be administered by its locals, but the only external entity with the power (if no legal ground) to cancel or amend this privilege is the rest of Kosovo. So it isn't de facto governed by Serbia, but by itself. Evlekis (talk) 15:31, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

DISPUTED!

The "disputed" tag should be restored as long as this article omits important parts of Kosovar history and does not mention Pjeter Bogdani, one the most important Albanian figures in Kosovo. Now the status of Kosovo is presented with extremely biased language.--Getoar TX (talk) 18:30, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

before you present a suggestion of including mention of Pjeter Bogdani, how do you know it's going to be disputed? Why cry for a "disputed" tag before even raising the points that bother you? But why, do you argue, should this article go off on a tangent on some 17th century author (let me guess... not because he is relevant, but because, as you say, he is Albanian).

The status is phrased extremely neutral language, which will irk anyone with either opinion on the Kosovo question. Which is the hallmark of NPOV. If you have an opinion, you will find neutrality grating. Why is this so difficult to grant for people here? I haven't seen anyone complaining about neutrality who did not very obviously have a strong personal opinion on the question. --dab (𒁳) 19:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The status is phrased extremely biased like written from Serbian foreign ministry. This is the most disturbing article being utterly dominated by dab and a few nationalists who do not respect tne NPOV rules and policies of Wikipedia. There is a large number of people who complain about the neutrality of this article. This is not a strong personal opinion but a strickly professional, based on articles published worldwide in the media which refer Kosovo as either, a republic, former province, disputed region. With exception of Serb media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spanishboy2006 (talk • contribs) 19:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Many people complain, but that doesn't mean those complaining people aren't also possessed of a POV, does it? In what ways could this article be changed, in your opinion, to reduce the Serbian POV? Please, no screaming about how it's really a fully recognized independent country, or other stuff that cannot be suported by citation. ThuranX (talk) 20:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Spanishboy2006, could you please not spread false information here? How would you know what the Serbian foreign ministry would write? If it were up to them to write the status, it would look something like this: "Kosovo and Metohija is an autonomous province of Serbia under UN administration." But it's not like that, so calm down. And also calm down with your bashing of Serb ministries and media outlets - every media outlet in Serbia is independent and has it's own "spin" on events, just like every media outlet in the world. The media often take sides (for example, Fox News), and that's why it's important to present both sides of the story, not just blindly following the ones that sound good to us or that we personally agree with. --Cinéma C 22:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

If these kind of people aren't trolling, then they clearly believe what they are saying, despite it being factually wrong. Just ask them to be bold, whilst respecting policy and guidlines. I fear that too many people may be coming here just to air their opinions - with little or no reasonable suggestions for actually improving the article. ninety:one 22:23, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Not only are your fears fully justified, but that has been taking place for quite a while now and very little is done to stop it. Anything you could think of as a solution for all these unconstructive comments on the Kosovo talk page? --Cinéma C 00:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Well the latest squabble appears to be whether or not to include "autonomous". The word was chosen to reflect good faith, it literally means self-rule or self-govern. That actually means independence in theory. The trouble with using autonomous is that it definitely implies that the region forms a part of another country. No country has ever included the word autonomous as part of its title. Russia is full of autonomous units, so when a region admits its autonomous status then it naturally accepts its position within a larger sovereign entity. So whilst I don't have a problem with its inclusion, the term is anti-Albanian regarding its placement. Evlekis (talk) 09:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Ev, I think the point your referring to was actually raised above. In response to a users query about how can the article can be improved however, I would like to point to my suggestion above about restructuring the article. It appears as if some editors only want to discuss contentious topics and not suggestions which actually make the article better. Interestedinfairness (talk) 09:33, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps so. It's just that the autonomous dispute had been the source of the last few edits on the article when I wrote. All right IiF, can you produce a brief list of topics/statments on the article as they are now which need either revision or total amendment, and what else do you feel needs mention? Evlekis (talk) 11:00, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

discuss topics in one place, please, or it gets very difficult to follow for others. Interestedinfairness already made a list at Talk:Kosovo#Restructering so please discuss it there. --Enric Naval (talk) 09:35, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

The UN administration period is covered in three separate places in the article; #2.4, #4.1 and #5.2. This should be condensed into one section. In its current state, the article is highly fragmented and disjointed. I propose restructuring along these lines: United Nations administration Period, (covering institutions of self governance) Declaration of independence and the Republic of Kosovo EULEX and the Rule of Law Government and Politics --- Interestedinfairness (talk) 01:09, 19 July 2009 (UTC) Jesus, Interestedinfairness... Didn't you propose that JUST TWO TABS above?! Discuss it there and stop pushing things over and over again, we can't keep repeating ourselves like you. --Cinéma C 03:32, 19 July 2009 (UTC) Stop with your distracting comments. Users have asked for suggestions, I have provided one. I do not care for your opinion on the matter as you have already *enlightened* me once regarding it. Interestedinfairness (talk) 08:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Cinema, you truly defend the Serbian POV without any clear arguments, violating policies of Wikipedia by making edits without consensus. You're recent contribution have been mainly on enhancing the Serbian nationalist, xenophobic work. About 62 nations and 2 UN institutions, IMF and World Bank recognize Kosovo as a country. And about 14 on the list signaling to recognize. Adding autonomous is not a consensus because 62 countries and 2 UN institutions disput a such claim.

Leopold invitation?

In the reference it is stated as an invitation, but if we read the text we see nothing of an invitation but only "The same idea of the obligations of the Serbs towards the Imperial benefactor figured importantly in Diploma Leopoldianum of 1690, the set of documents that explained the rights and obligations of the Orthodox in the months following the arrival of Serbs in the Empire. In addition to liberties and benefices given to Patriarch Arsenije III and his people, it clearly explains what the Empire expected in return:

The Emperor announces that he considered and accepted all the Serbian pleas and he declares that Serbs have every right to practice their faith and laws and that no member of the Hungarian or Austrian aristocracy has the power over them; that they can appoint their own prelates … Also they need to stay lawful and obedient and must serve the Empire to the last drop of their blood…32

Now where do we see a reference for an invitation here? This is a legal document after the Serbs arrived in Hungary, giving them a legal status and that's all. Aigest (talk) 07:34, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Disruptive edits

SpanishboyAlbanianboy, please stop making silly edits, the article is on probation, I'm surprised you haven't been blocked yet. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 10:21, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I am surprised you haven't been blocked BrutaldeluxeBrutalserb. Autonomous is Serbia POV. Vojvodina is autonomous because Serbia controls it. Serbia does not control an inch of Kosovo. Moreover, Kosovo is declared an independent republic, not autonomous. Majority of Serbs who live in Kosovo are applying for the Republic of Kosovo documents, passports, birth certificates, ids. Serbia establishing full control of border with Kosovo. Does Serbia have a full control with Vojvodina? Serbia does not control Kosovo administratively, politically or legally. Kosovo, indeed is a disputed state in the Balkans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spanishboy2006 (talk • contribs) 10:26, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not Albanian!!

Several people have been making changes without consensus here, clearly representing the Serbian POV. Brutadeluxe and a few have made contentious disruptive changes on the subject.

I've just blocked Spanishboy2006 for 24 hours for edit warring and violating the 3RR rule. Regarding autonomous/disputed, can someone clearly write what is the present consensus and what is the reason for it so that we don't spend any more time on it? --Tone 11:19, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The concept of Kosovo as an autonomous region gained tacit consensus a few days ago, my way of looking at it is that no matter what the POV~, saying that it is autonomous is accepted by both sides. Serbians maintain it is their autonomous region, others think autonomy as equivalent to independence. Spanishboy also disregarded the hidden note on the consensus on place names. I'm looking into the possibility of him being a sock of a banned user, I have traced him to an IP address that has only made edits on Albanian/Kosovo related articles, his edits have only been on these subjects too. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 11:32, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

No, Brutaldeluxe, I'm afraid autonomy is not the same as independence. As you may know, Kosovo does not have any sort of legal dependence on Serbia, hence the word independence. Only a couple of countries actually positively respect Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo. The rest have either accepted the new state or are watching the situation.

Kosovo is "autonomous" only from the Serbian POV. To the Kosovars in Kosovo and to the 62 countries that have recognised its independence, it is an independent Republic of Kosovo. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 11:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Forget all that, we've been over it. Since we can't say that it is an independent country, autonomous region comes a close second, since at least it implies self-governance. Does anyone still disagree on that? (Yes, I bet)Brutaldeluxe (talk) 12:02, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Um, yeah. I disagree. It sounds like you decided to bunt instead of actually, you know, coming up with something that reflects reality. Your statement above is rather astounding - "Since we can't call it the letter A, let's just call it letter B. Letter A does resemble letter B, you know." Autonomy implies dependence. Kosovo is NOT dependent on Serbia. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 12:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

As you just placed a bet, there are people who disagree. Kosovo is an independent sovereign state that isn't a UN member yet, just like Republic of China on that matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kedadi (talk • contribs) 12:19, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Well I'm happy with calling it a state, but the consensus just hasn't been reached. All I'm saying is that, disregarding everything else, I thought everyone agreed on the fact that it is self-governed.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 12:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

This is one dispute in which I haven't interfered, but there is one issue to be addressed. Until recently, we used the word region (disputed region), but now however, state seems to have materialised. This is misleading and wholly incorrect. I am not arguing against those wishing for Kosovo to be presented as an all out country because I really have no opinion on this. But we are talking about a republic. We cannot use this term if maintaining a balanced position because Kosovo was never deemed a republic within Yugoslavia whilst Serbia was. However, when representing the entity which declared independence, a republic is precisely how it is purported to be by its architects. The point is that state and republic are antonyms, they have opposite meanings. It is only acceptable to refer to any sovereign body as a state if generalising (eg. state pension, the law of the state etc). In the opening sentences, it is important not to generalise but to be precise. Precision on the topic is itself the subject of debate. State is the term currently being used to represent the Albanian angle; so if anything, would those representing this particular pro-independence view atleast accept an amendment to the word state; even if only to use republic. I know there is no convenient terminology to please everyone, but state really strikes at the heart of accuracy. Evlekis (talk) 13:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

You don't have to mess the past and the present, the current political status doesn't have to do anything with the past status within Yugoslavia. If Kosovo cannot be called a state, then why can Republic of China?, their political status is about the same by not being a UN member (Republic of China is recognized by 23 states and Kosovo recognized by 62 states).--kedadi (talk) 14:30, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I've already reverted twice today, so I can't rollback to the last stable version (the one with disputed region, apparently). I think that's what should be done until more editors can join in and Spanishboy's block runs out. I posted this already, but Kosovo is listed as fulfilling the criteria of the Montevideo convention at List of sovereign states.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 15:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Correct, Brutaldeluxe, Kosovo fulfills Montevideo convention, so it's a state. And it is this that is being disputed now by Serbia. Also, Kosovo has always had clearly defined administrative borders which are not being disputed by Serbia. Arianit (talk) 17:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

sigh, the Republic of Kosovo is a state, albeit a disputed one. Kosovo (the subject of this article) isn't a state, it is the territory claimed by both the Republic of Kosovo and the Republic of Serbia. If people could agree to already create a Republic of Kosovo article, that article could be treated on the same basis as Republic of China. Until we do that, the Republic of Kosovo will just remain a sub-topic of "post-2008 history" to this article. Consequently, Kedadi, what you want to do is support a {{split}} of a standalone Republic of Kosovo off this article. After all, we don't merge Republic of China into China, do we. --dab (𒁳) 18:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The Kosovo article should be split between Kosovo the region and Kosovo the state. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 00:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I've tried a couple times to put the constant childish edit warring from Spanishboy and others to rest, but he's so caught up in his nationalistic agenda that facts are merely a speed bump in his mind. I have now tried to match the article (in dispute) to the hatnote, which is not in dispute. This should eliminate any more childish warring. Wikipedia is not your battlefield; it is supposed to be objective, so unless spanishboy really thinks there's NO dispute at all, the word disputed should be incorporated, as it's accurate. ThuranX (talk) 18:42, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

So, I take it the split failed to find consensus and we are now back to the version of 24 July before Brutaldeluxe's edit. --dab (𒁳) 09:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

split

Done. You can edit to your heart's content at Independent Republic of Kosovo.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 00:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Well the region and the state cover the same territory. The dispute is what it is and what to call it, not that they are two separate things. I don't think this split will be allowed per Wikipedia policy if the goal is to create two separate versions of the same topic. Also, independent and republic are kinda redundant. How about just Republic of Kosovo, if you still decide to go with it. Arianit (talk) 07:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

there is indeed no dispute that the region of Kosovo and the 2008 Republic of Kosovo are two separate items. They clearly are. The question is whether it makes sense to have two articles about them. Since these articles will have a large topical overlap, it may be better to merge them, but it must then be made very clear that the RoK is only a subtopic of this article. --dab (𒁳) 09:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

guys, you can't just create articles at random titles like Independent Republic of Kosovo. There is a reason and a history behind the protection of Republic of Kosovo. If there is a bona fide move to recreating the Republic of Kosovo article I can lift protection, but can you please take it a bit more slowly and see if there is consensus for this? --dab (𒁳) 08:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I have fixed the mess made by Brutaldeluxe over the split. I do not endorse or disendorse the split, but if there is significant resistance to this, the whole thing will have to be reverted. --dab (𒁳) 09:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

• I oppose the split, under whatever title, as I always have. It's a single geographical entity, all the splitting and forking only represents competing political views on it and is thus little more than POV-forking. Thanks to Dab for the technical fixes. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
  • well then let's merge it back. I think the split is arguable, but not really necessary. The point is that people keep whining about the Republic of China article being more sympathetic to the partially-recognized state. The split is the "China" solution, viz. two articles, one at China and one at Republic of China. But the situation is not, of course, parallel, the RoC governing like 0.5% of its claimed territory, and the RoK at least partially (with the help of UNMIK and EULEX) governing most of its claimed territory.
  • please feel free to revert this split pending a more solid consensus on how to tackle this. Just be sure that if the split is reverted, any Albanian patriot complaining about the Republic of China article is told to try and seek consensus for this split or go away. --dab (𒁳) 09:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Two quick points. I explained in my last edit why state does not fit the bill; it implies country anyway and misleads as to what type of country it is. I know that state is a general term but the first sentence is far too early to generalise. So I went one step further and replaced the word with republic, I don't see how this should offend Albanians. Meanwhile any non-Albanians who oppose "republic" should also consider the implications of reverting back to "state". Secondly, there are advantages of starting a new article on the independent body. It is not against WP to split articles. We already have Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1990–1999) and Republic of Kosova (1990-2000) which pertain to the very same region at the same time. An article is about a subject, and the subjects here are separate entities; any entity entire of itself warrants an article if there is enough to write about. After all, the PROC and the ROC both claim to be the legal authorities of a single vast territory. Both have individual articles. Land and people are not everything! Evlekis (talk) 09:30, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Uhm, this sounds as if the whole dispute hinges on a single phrase in the definition statement in the lead, again? Good lord, I'm strongly opposed to splitting articles just because people can't agree on a lead sentence. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Me too, I'm in agreement with you. It is a waste of internet space splitting articles for the sake of a few words. The problem here is that the supporters of Kosovan independence wish to use their new article to talk about the country itself, its goals, its achievements, its superb employment, its fantastic human rights, its image of the way forward in Balkan democracy, its tourism and its spectacular seaside resorts (joking here) and its life outside of the ugly dispute! Seriously, that is not the key problem with splitting the article. The trouble here - unlike with the two Kosovo articles for 1990-1999 - is that it is a partial split. If a page exists to reflect an independent Kosovo, its counterpart would not so much be this page but rather a third article to explain the region according to its "authority in exile" Belgrade: how Belgrade recognises it as an integral part of Serbia, how the voting in the region has been (among its Serbs) in Belgrade-initiated elections, how things are where it still has influence (if not power) and the like. Such a creation would be zealous to say the least! This article is treated as a Kosovo in general, the land, the people and some history whilst Republic of Kosovo focuses on the "state" itself. So I don't know where I stand on this one either. Evlekis (talk) 11:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no way that Republic of Kosovo should become a place for Albanian POV to vent its spleen. It should become, if it is given time, nothing more than the five Ws of the Republic of Kosovo, the entity (or state or whatever you want to call it) that has embassies, relations with other countries, and so on: the one that acts as if it has legitimacy. It would be interesting to see if anyone is willing to take the effort to do this, but of course, with deletion looming that isn't likely to happen. As Evlekis said, "This article is treated as a Kosovo in general, the land, the people and some history whilst Republic of Kosovo focuses on the "state" itself" and I too don't know where I stand on this. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 15:39, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I support the Republic of Kosova page. _LOVE_ SILENT_KILLER/SPAIN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.143.184 (talk) 21:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

What happened to WP:CFORK? Ijanderson (talk) 12:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:CFORK has nothing to do with it, just like Republic of China is not a "content fork" of China. Of course, the content of Republic of Kosovo will need to remain strictly focused on the 2008 Republic proper. --dab (𒁳) 14:25, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations, you've opened up a Pandora's box. If this Republic of Kosovo page is not deleted, I can't see a single reason why we shouldn't create Province of Kosovo and you know what? Then we'll finally have two sides writing completely diferent stuff in their own articles and there goes Wikipedia's policy of consensus building. Great. Nice work. --Cinéma C 17:34, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

FORKing is bad. This split just gives each side the chance to fuck up MORE articles, and should be reversed immediately. ThuranX (talk) 18:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Cinema, Do not revert without consensus, Evklakis, brutaldelux, Tone, clearly asked to keep it as a disputed state in the Balkans until we have a clear consensus. These changes w/o consensus are a clear violation of policy. Serbia does not recognize Kosovo, however, Serbia does not control an inch of Kosovo. Serbia is establishing a clear border and customs control with Kosovo just like it has with other states like Bulgaria, Macedonia, Montenegro, Croatia, etc. Kosovo is a sovereign state, disputed by Serbia, however, Serbia does not control an inch of Kosovo. Again, Cinema, Brutaldelux, Dbachman, violated the Wikipedia POV policy, attempting to dominate with Serbian POV. Reported to admins.--SpanishBoy2006 22:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Not only do you ignore everyone else here, you try to get them in trouble. I think that it may be time to seek out a topic ban for you. ThuranX (talk) 23:07, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

One small thing Spanish amigo, you said that Serbia is establishing a clear border and customs control with Kosovo etc and that is true. In fact, these transit checks were installed many years before Kosovo's declaration, I'd say as far back as the handover to the UN in 1999 but I don't know exactly what level of FRY authority was present in the buffer zone in its initial stages. I know that once the Conflict in Southern Serbia ended in 2001, the buffer zone was lifted. So no later than 2001 did you have checks on the Central Serbian side of the boundry. Montenegro did something similar with Serbia. Once their current leader Milo Đukanović - who turned against the Belgrade authorities - emerged victorious in Montenegrin elections, he reversed the direction of Montenegro and sought independence. From the beginning of the campaign in 1996, Montenegro grew defiant towards the FRY as it established its own borders to monitor all activity coming from Serbia. Now at that time, it meant that Montenegro had sealed its border with Kosovo. This was years before Kosovo could reciprocate; after all, Montenegro adjoins Kosovo. Even so, the rest of Serbia - whether nominally within a federation or independent - is compelled to establish these checkpoints; it doesn't have a choice. Serbia's governmental position in both the FRY and Serbia and Montenegro did not wish to break ties with Montenegro. But as Montenegro took the liberty of managing its own immigration and transit movement, it would have been foolish of Serbia to ignore this. For instance, I myself needed a visa to officially enter FRY whilst it existed (I hold a UK passport). Montenegro was deliberately acting in defiance of this order, and I had been able to enter Montenegro with just a plain passport untouched by FRY embassy staff; so if Serbia did not install checkpoints, one only needed to go to Montenegro to gain nice free easy access to Serbia! Serbia accepts the provisions of 1244 which devolves all authority over Kosovo to the UN; as such, Belgrade has not on one occasion after 1999 attempted to implement its policy in Kosovo. To that end, it is within Serbia's own interest to supervise all activity along transit points. This is regardless of whether it considers the onward territory to form a part of its legal integrity. Evlekis (talk) 00:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

We are talking about a clear border and customs policy being implemented in due course as Serbia, not Kosovo, receives visa liberalizations. Serbia has agreed to establish clear border and customs just like it does with FYR Macedonia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Montengro, Croatia, etc. It's not what Serbia considers, it's what states border and custom controls means. Facts and interpretation are two different things. Kosovo is a fledgling state, sovereign and independent, Serbia disputes in interpretation, but defacto recognizes Kosovo, and that's a fact.(SpanishBoy2006)

What do you mean but defacto recognizes Kosovo. Does Serbia recognise it or not? If it defacto recognises it, it will open an embassy in Priština and receive an ambassador in Belgrade. An embassy with the Kosovan flag will fly above the consulate in Belgrade. Serbia will publish maps marking Kosovo, or to be more precise, it will sketch itself as the territory minus Kosovo, and Kosovo will be removed from news bulletins' weather reports. A new constitution will be written revising the internal structure of Serbia and gone will be the reference to Central Serbia. It will turn its back on ethnic Serbs in Kosovo on the pretext that they are subjects of a foreign land. It will participate in sporting activity against a Kosovan team. It will display roadsigns leading to Kosovan settlements with a Kosovan domain symbol as it does with Hungary, Romania etc. And last of all, it will not recognise Kosovo formally because that is what it means to de jure establish diplomatic relations. Does this make sense or does it sound stupid? I'll leave that one to you, but whatever you decide: that is how a Serbian de-facto recognition of Kosovo would appear. Serbia does not refer to the Central Serbia/Kosovo boundry as a border. It considers the isolated territory its sovereignty bound by 1244. What you call a border, everyone else calls a transit/checkpoint. The installments are the same absolutely everywhere, there is no alternative arrangement. They comprise two sections: Passport Control, supervised by state police; Customs, which deals with luggage and goods (more significant when entering than leaving). How can Serbia possibly abandon this when one has been established against its will by authorities controlling a section of what it deems to be its own land? Do you think Croatia didn't establish control checks along borders of the former RSK? Do you think that it allowed anyone to enter Croatia freely from the RSK because "RSK authorities will have already checked the documentation of the individual once already when entering RSK?" and all just because Croatia believed the lands to be a part of their territorial integrity? The same applied with Bosnia for the 1992-95 period. It didn't mean that Bosnia de-facto recognised the Serb republic, it didn't even accept the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosnoa and that didn't even declare itself independent!!! Evlekis (talk) 20:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

look, if you object to the split, why don't you revert it already? We have now seen what the split would look like, but if it is reverted, we are back to the "consensus" version we had so far, prior to the split. Since this topic will come up again and again, we will at least have the diffs demonstrating what the split version would look like. --dab (𒁳) 13:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, this discussion about a split occured a while back, maybe over a year ago, and I believe the consensus was that such a split would be a violation of WP:FORK. I also think FP's point that Kosovo is a single geographical entity makes a lot of sense, and that the split doesn't. --Athenean (talk) 18:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Evlekis..you are joking. Again with interpretations, not facts. Serbia is establishing full border, customs with Kosovo and the deadline is by the end of October if it wants visa liberalization. Your comparison of something that does not exist, and has no whatsoever link to Kosovo is just push for your own POV. Your statement is interpretation lacking facts. Serbia defacto recognizes Kosovo. Serbia tacitly recognizes Kosovo, said the former prime minister of Serbia, Vojislav Kostunica. From the horses mouth. [9] Statements and facts are different.SpanishBoy2006 03:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not joking. I am not POV pushing either, I was not suggesting a change on the article, just correcting your erroneous statements. There is no such thing as "de facto recognition": one state either recognises another, or it doesn't. Travellers from Kosovo to Central Serbia have not been able to travel into Serbia without passing Serbian police and customs since they withdrew from Kosovo. During the time of Slobodan Milošević when FRY policy was wholly in defiance of the ICTY, what force existed to ensure "KFOR agents" did not try to sneak into the rest of Serbia to "arrest" and "smuggle back into Kosovo" indictees? Before the signing of the Kumanovo Treaty, NATO demanded that they be free to roam Serbia and Montenegro, armed, and with no subordination to FRY authorities. This was something they surrendered before FRY officials provided signatures. What force existed to ensure that this would not be in breach? They may now be building some fancy buildings but Serbia does not de facto recognise an independent Kosovo. You'll know when it does when you see a Kosovan embassy in Belgrade. Serbia de jure recognises Resolution 1244 which devolves power in Kosovo to UMNIK whilst the region nominally forms a part of Serbia. It is by the title of UNMIK that Kosovo joined CEFTA as a partner of Serbia, not as Kosovo. So the relationship between the two entities is not a token of Serbian recognition of Kosovo. Evlekis (talk) 21:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The source you provided has an effect quotation on the introductory paragraph, which is an infinity away from your claim of Serbia recognising Kosovo. The rest of the article says nothing of the sort. If B92 is such a trusted source, then perhaps you would like to examine these column inches, and read very carefully what Đelić and Svilanović say. They actually address the lethal area of recognition here. Evlekis (talk) 21:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Locking the page

Good to see administrators protected the page from disruptive edits. Bad to see that Kosovo is now described as a "disputed republic". This is against the consensus, change it back to "disputed territory". --Cinéma C 18:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Either way, no one has so far noticed that the correct wording should be "a ...(insert preferred word) whose independence is disputed". We should clearly state what the dispute is about, and I'm not talking about editor's disputes. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 18:40, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Sure that's more important, but so is our consensus. --Cinéma C 19:23, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

m:The Wrong Version. Prodego ^talk 19:24, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The page should be reverted back to a couple of days ago Ijanderson (talk) 19:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Prodego, what are you trying to do here? This is not my personal opinion, I'm talking about Wikipedia consensus. --Cinéma C 01:56, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Agree, roll it back to at least before the Sinbad Barron/Spanishboy edits (who ignored consensus and changed Kosovar place names at will). Brutaldeluxe (talk) 21:41, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes back to the original status quo Ijanderson (talk) 23:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

When pages are protected, the administrator who does so simply locks the page, without regard to which version is on it. Except in the case of simple vandalism or libelous content, a protected page will not be reverted. Being right or wrong has no bearing on this, since people differ on what is right and wrong. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 23:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Cinema C, I think you might want to take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kosovo&diff=303775694&oldid=303711264, and stop crying out for the consensus that has been reached because you don't care at all about it, trying to push your own POV.--84.22.62.66 (talk) 01:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

There was a clear consensus that Kosovo is a sovereign state but disputed, until Cinema changes things without consensus, without discussing anything.SpanishBoy2006 02:57, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

No, the clear consensus was the wording "disputed region". That has been the consensus for over a year now. The solution is not to lock the page, but topic-banning disruptive POV-pushers such as you. The current "disputed republic" is ridiculous and shows what happens when people with an agenda are allowed to edit. --Athenean (talk) 17:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Athenean. It is of no relevance for Wikipedia what is right or what is wrong. Only thing relevant is that there is consenus about some statement and that that statement is verifiable. The consensus was "disupted region". Until tides change that should remain, and any attempt to change what was reached through many many pages of conversation and hard work from all people involved and administrators to me is no more than a vandal and POV pusher. Let's try to be cooperative here. "Disupted region" is something that is correct, verifiable and is not insulting to any side. --RockyMM (talk) 12:42, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

@ Cinéma C Well Kosovo is a disputed Republic, we are hardly going to refer to Kosovo as a disputed Kingdom ;) Ijanderson (talk) 19:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm surprised you're using jokes as an argument. Wikipedia consensus is that Kosovo is a disputed region, writing "republic" or "province" is leaning towards the Albanian and Serbian sides respectively. --Cinéma C 03:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kosovo&diff=303775694&oldid=303711264 clearly tells on which side you are leaning. In the summary you made it look like you were reverting SpanishBoy while in fact you reached your own goal.--kedadi (talk) 04:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

@Cinema C, disputed region would be if let's say Albania and Serbia were fighting over it. This is not so. Kosovo has declared independence. "Partially disputed sovereign state" or republic is a factual statement of the situation on the ground. Arianit (talk) 10:05, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

KOSOVO Flag and Coat Of Arms

Kosovo Flag is missing its been there for about 2 years

so admins bring the flag back —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lontech (talk • contribs) 02:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, yes the flag should definitely be on the page. I would propose replacing the UN flag with it. Any objections to either that in particular, or adding it to the page in general? Prodego ^talk 02:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Well some admin has to fix what's been done, that is Republic of Kosovo seems to have been split out, but someone blanked it and redirected it back here. So now the info about the country is gone. chandler 02:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Yep. Brutaldeluxe made the change without consensus, he assumes that tacitly we agreed like Cinema who claims consensus while changes without consensus --(SpanishBoy2006 02:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC))

We need to restore the Republic of Kosovo info box which included the Flag and CoA and other information etc Ijanderson (talk) 09:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Since I am relatively unfamiliar with the situation here, I'm not going to make the change as requested at my talk page. However, I am adding an {{editprotected}} tag to the section to draw the attention of other administrators, since there appears to be agreement that the flag and coat of arms should appear somewhere (and in some form) on the page. --Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 18:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy to make the edit, but I need a more specific request. Which image exactly? Or which version should be restored? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

In all its glory, the requested change is template {{Republic of Kosovo}}, I would like to note that part of the dispute stems from the fact that some users do not recognise the Republic of Kosovo (and the fact that its neighbouring countries do recognise it), and therefore are opposed to the existance of the template itself and al that follows. So there you go, nice template but nowhere for it to be, since the Republic of Kosovo does not exist. Brutaldeluxe 19:37, 28 July 2009

restore to this one http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kosovo&oldid=303915021 Facts are Facts there should be no discussion about facts cause they are facts. check CIA factbook --Lontech (talk) 01:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Are they the same facts that led you to modify my edit so as to make it conform to your agenda, Lontech? Brutal Deluxe (talk) 02:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

sorry if i deleted only your last word but as you can see it there again also there was no name at that post

FACT is the sun we see it everyday u cant say sun dont exist unless you are blind--Lontech (talk) 02:43, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Unblock Request

Now I think everyone has calmed down. The heat has worn off. I Believe it is time to unblock this page. I think Spanishboy2006's and Cinéma C's POV-ness has ended too and thus we can get back to normal. Who agrees? Ijanderson (talk) 11:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree.--SpanishBoy2006 11:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

You're being disruptive an uncooperative for entire time you have edited this article. You should not be editing Wikipedia until you show that your conduct here Wikipedia-worthy.--RockyMM (talk) 12:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

@ Spanishboy: You have posted sources/ new stories on this talk page, but we can't even do anything with them because you won't allow the page to be unblocked. So why bother posting them in the first place? Ijanderson (talk) 18:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? How in the world do I have POV-ness? I'd be POV pushing if I started asking for "disputed province" or "disputed republic" in the lead. You tell me Kosovo is a Republic and then accuse me of POV pushing? Please.. don't play these games. We're trying to make an encyclopedia here. --Cinéma C 03:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, you are not asking for "disputed province" or "disputed republic", but is this NPOV?--kedadi (talk) 04:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

No it's not. It's neither POV nor NPOV but does not push an opinion of any kind at all. The term suggests that the territory is ruled from within whilst to leave it out implies that the dispute is based on who exactly is running it. As the Spanish Boy likes to say wherever he can "Serbia doesn't control an inch of Kosovo!".

Evlekis (talk) 16:00, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Then neither is "disputed republic" POV pushing, as it is just suggesting that it is a republic (which it is, I think that we all agree on this) but is being disputed by Serbia. Regarding "Serbia doesn't control an inch of Kosovo!", I'm afraid but that's true.--kedadi (talk) 17:44, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

"suggesting that it is a republic (which it is, I think that we all agree on this" - No, we do not agree. What are you going to do now? Change the mind of the majority of the countries in the world who do not recognize Kosovo as a republic all by yourself? How do you not see that what you're claiming is the same as if someone claimed Kosovo to be a province (which it, actually, according to UNSCR 1244, is) but is disputed by the Albanian majority and a minority of UN member states. Can't you see how one-sided that is? --Cinéma C 20:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

"disputed republic" is first of all nonsense. Does that mean that it is disputed between two countries or that it is disputed that is a republic (as opposed to say, another form of government)? There was a longstanding consensus on this article that "disputed region" was NPOV, until this recent rash of nationalist Albanian editors appeared, and here we are. --Athenean (talk) 20:05, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

First of all, the correct wording should be "a ...(insert preferred word) whose independence is disputed". Let's make clear what the dispute is about. Second, we cannot deny that a "Republic of Kosovo" exists occupying the territory of Kosovo, look at micronations, however ridiculous you might think they are, you cannot deny their existance.Brutal Deluxe (talk) 20:26, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

@Cinema C:

• I mean, it is a Republic with all institutions and it functions like one (this is what I meant on my previous post), but the problem is that it's independence is not fully internationally recognized (a matter of time).
• Not just UNSCR 1244 but also Serbia does say that, but the facts in the terrain say that none of these two things have control over it (UN is present with a minimized staff and has zero control, it has become JAIO or Just Another International Organization present in Kosovo; UNSCR 1244 is completely ignored by Kosovo institutions), while on the other hand the Republic of Kosovo (with the help of EULEX) does have control over the territory of Kosovo.

@Athenean: I don't know if you have ever heard this quote from Charles de Gaulle: Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.. If you were referring to me as a nationalist Albanian editor, then I don't care about other people than mine when it comes to patriotism/nationalism, but in general I must express my love for all those western nations with their beautiful flags (US, UK, 22 nations of EU, etc.). You may see that I'm not active on any article regarding Greece or Serbia.

@Brutaldeluxe: That would be, a country whose independence is disputed, that's what it is in fact.

--kedadi (talk) 21:12, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

@kedadi:

"the problem is that it's independence is not fully internationally recognized"

You can't use such one-sided language like this as an argument on an encyclopedia. There is no "problem", there are only facts.

"the facts in the terrain say that none of these two things have control over it"

In fact, not only does the Kosovo government not have control over 100% of the territory it claims, but even the "independence" over the territories they control is supervised, i.e. not fully independent. The international community still has most of the control over Kosovo.

"UNSCR 1244 is completely ignored by Kosovo institutions"

Just like Kosovo's institutions are completely ignored by Serbia's and the majority of UN states' institutions. What's your point?

"the Republic of Kosovo (with the help of EULEX) does have control over the territory of Kosovo"

It was also explicitly made clear that EULEX will not implement the Ahtisaari plan - independence. EULEX is not helping the "Republic", it is status neutral.

"Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first."

Have you ever heard of quotes on patriotism by George Bernard Shaw ("Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it."), Goethe ("Patriotism ruins history."), Barbara Ehrenreich ("No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots."). Anybody can take quotes, but you can't use that as an argument. What's your point?

"You may see that I'm not active on any article regarding Greece or Serbia."

Well thats really nice. Take it to the user's talk page, it has nothing to do with Kosovo. --Cinéma C 04:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

@Cinema

Wow, take it easy man, not everything was for you and if you would have been following the discussion you would get my point. Let me make it clearer to you.

"The international community still has most of the control over Kosovo."

• Which international community? You mean UN? Did you know that the territory of Kosovo is controlled by the Republic of Kosovo, around 85% of it, and with the help of EULEX the remaining 15%? I don't know if you know it but UN is present with a minimized staff in Kosovo. They don't have not a single thing under their authority anymore, unlike the time before the independence.

"Just like Kosovo's institutions are completely ignored by Serbia's and the majority of UN states' institutions."

• Absolutely irrelevant, as long as the Republic of Kosovo has a defacto control over the territory. It doesn't really matter if Serbia accepts or ignores that fact. That would be as dumb as saying: The Republic of Kosovo ignores Serbia's institutions and claims Serbia's territory to be part of Republic of Kosovo, and you know why?, because Republic of Kosovo has 0% control on Serbia's territory.

"It was also explicitly made clear that EULEX will not implement the Ahtisaari plan - independence. EULEX is not helping the "Republic", it is status neutral."

• Did you know that EULEX came in Kosovo exactly from the Ahtisaari Plan? Maybe you didn't. EULEX is a rule of law mission, it is not a political mission like UNMIK used to be. Sad but true, it is helping Kosovo a lot, with customs on the north, rule of law in general, controlling places where the Republic of Kosovo cannot reach for the moment, and much much more.

--kedadi (talk) 05:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

This arguing can go on forever. I don't know why we speak of rule of law when that if anything is the one element which cannot exist at such a high level. Kosovo declared independence, correct. Serbia and other countries reject it, correct. Kosovo is ruled from within, also correct. Serb majority enclaves are left alone by Kosovo, that too is correct. UNHCR1244 is ineffective, correct. EULEX is neutral, that is "officially" correct. The UN has no control over Kosovo, correct? Perhaps one needs to examine this view. The UN is present. All KFOR/NATO units are UN subjects. Most pre-1999 NATO states bombed Yugoslav authorities into submission in 1999 and established the status quo in Kosovo today. The KLA on the other hand – whilst being fantastic killing machines – needed NATO to act as their airforce to oust Belgrade influence in Kosovo. From 1999-2008, Kosovo permanently needed the presence of international forces to police the provisions of the Kumanovo Treaty within the region. Today, there are no campaigns from any section of Kosovan Albanian society which demands that the international forces leave the region. Suffice it to say, Kosovo's authority is heavily dependent on the international presence, the region feels insecure. So how ridiculous to suggest that the UN has no authority over Kosovo. The UN is purported to exist as an authority over the world. It doesn't have an army as such but as we see atleast once every 10-20 years, a group of nations declare war on an "unfavourable" state, and they do this on a "UN Mandate". The Serbs in the enclaves know that there is nothing that they can do if Priština wishes to expand its influence over 100% of the region. Priština also knows that if the global elite (the so-called "international community") tries to impose a policy contary to a Priština implementation, then it will be the former which prevails. Kosovo cannot be in defiance of the hand that feeds it. As for controlling its institutions, Nagorno-Karabagh also controls its institutions and has done so since 1988 with no threat from any wordly power to remedy this. It doesn't make it a country. And as for 1244 being ignored by Kosovo's authorities, that doesn't change the fact that Serbia continues to recognise the resolution. If a new resolution be drafted tomorrow replacing 1244, as happened in 1908 to accept violations of the Berlin Congress 1878 (allowing Bulgarian independence and Austro-Hungarian sovereignty over Bosnia and Herzegovina), then everything will be fine for Kosovo. However, if this can happen then it would be a travesty of the international legal system, "never mind what we said yesterday, just follow the force of gravity!". However, the fact that neither of these two things have happened and yet the "international community" flaunts 1244, is a shocking indictment of the real international authority (jungle law, the strongest survive) whilst it exposes the UN/"Rule of law" as wholly symbolic, a mask with a civilised appearance for powerful rogues to hide behind. Evlekis (talk) 08:40, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I am impressed. --Cinéma C 19:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

U people are u blinded or illiterate if CIA say that Kosovo is Republic then it is

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kv.html

CIA is smarter than u kids and i bet that most of you are underage under 18 thats why i think you should be banned from posting here

kids trying to change the FACTS but fact is fact u cant change it.............. LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

A fact is a pragmatic truth, a statement that can, at least in theory, be checked and either confirmed or denied. Facts are often contrasted with opinions and beliefs, statements which are held to be true, but are not amenable to pragmatic confirmation or denial.

Fact is sometimes used as synonymous with truth or REALITY

Country name:

Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order. conventional long form: Republic of Kosovo conventional short form: Kosovo local long form: Republika e Kosoves (Republika Kosovo) local short form: Kosova (Kosovo)

other terms, words should be removed immediately LIKE Serbia Constitution etc --Lontech (talk) 03:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Please take your POV pushing elsewhere. --Cinéma C 04:25, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

the fact is that the USA recognizes the RoK's independence. This fact is reported on Wikipedia with perfect accuracy. I don't see the problem. --dab (𒁳) 09:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Russia,China,Brazil abstain from further participation at ICJ

Russia, China, Brazil and several other states decided to abstain from further participation at ICJ. [10]..From ICJ website [11] --SpanishBoy2006 11:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Serbia doesn't rule out recognition of Kosovo's independence

Serbia FM stated the he does not rule out the recognition of Kosovo's independence by Serbia. From the horses mouth: Asked explicitly if he might recognise Kosovo's independence, perhaps in return for some of its land being returned to Serbia, Mr Jeremic once again refused to rule anything out. "We don't want to exclude any options," he said. "We need to come to the table and see what happens."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8172537.stm --SpanishBoy2006 14:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC) ->

So you've yielded your position slightly I see! From Serbia de facto recognises to Serbia "might" recognise. We'll all find out in due course. In the meantime, can I request that someone who has the permission to edit please remove the link to [Republic of Kosovo] on the opening paragraph. It was wikified some weeks ago when we experimented with "forking" two parallel entities on different dimensions. Now it is just misleading, it redirects you to the page you are already reading. Thanks. Evlekis (talk) 16:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Might I add, Kosovo can not be referred to as a "disputed republic", but a "disputed region" which is Wikipedia consensus. Thanks, --Cinéma C 04:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

yes, it is astounding how people can fail in grasping very elementary circumstances simply because they decide they do not WANT to understand them. The situation is crystal clear: Kosovo is a disputed region, and the Republic of Kosovo is a partially-recognized state in dispute over the region. A simple matter of agens vs. patiens.

Fwiiw, it looks like Kosovo's independence will be finalized comparatively soon. If Russia and China lose interest, and Serbia is making conciliatory noises, this probably means that Serbia is hoping to strike a deal, such as chipping off a bit of North Kosovo, in exchange for fully recognizing the seccession. I must say I really look forward to this because it will hopefully mean the end of the childish nonsense we put up on this page since February 2008. --dab (𒁳) 09:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo is not a disputed region because Serbia does not control an inch of it. Kosovo is a sovereign state, disputed by Serbia. It fulls the whole criteria of a sovereign state. Cinema C has been attempting to push his POV, ignoring and violating the rules of NPOV. There was no consensus on disputed region, but there was a broad consensus on disputed state until Cinema C changed without consensus. Serbia defacto recognizes Kosovo. 1) Border and custom control, invalidity of Serb passports to Kosovo citizens, Jeremic even said himself that Serbia will not rule out recognition of Kosovo if some territory is swapped. It shows that Serbia accepts the reality on the ground, that Kosovo is an international independent and sovereign subjectivity. The reality on the ground is that Kosovo controls its territory, acting as a sovereign body, which fulfills the criteria of a state. Recognitions which are abundant, are only matter of satisfaction, not definition of a state. Moreover, Serbia silently agreed to have Kosovo take over the responsibility to pay its debt World Bank and IMF. That's a recognition of the reality that Kosovo is a sovereign state, which Cinema C refuses to accept. Remember the statement of Serbia President refusing to give up the debt because that means a recognition of the Kosovo's independence according to Serbia point of view. Serbia tacitly recognizes Kosovo, said Serbia's former PM, Vojislav Kostunica. Kosovo is a state. Even adding disputed is not correct anymore because even Serbia does not disputed it but rather wants territories to swap, presevo valley with northern of Kosovo, excluding Mitrovica perhaps. --SpanishBoy2006 09:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

We already have a sentence that clearly emphasizes Serbia's dispute.[[ ""Serbia does not recognise the secession of Kosovo and considers it a United Nations-governed entity within its sovereign territory, the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (Serbian: Аутономна Покрајина Косово и Метохија, Autonomna Pokrajina Kosovo i Metohija), according to the Constitution of Serbia (2006).[7]""]]-- Spanishboy2006 (talk 10:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

thank you for illustrating my point. "Kosovo is a sovereign state, which Cinema C refuses to accept" is priceless. Cinema C is, I take it, heading a bunch of other losers such as China, Russia, Spain, India, Greece, Brazil, and a hobo who hangs out in my neighborhood. --dab (𒁳) 10:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Serbia does not dispute Kosovo's statehood anymore, Serbia FM clearly emphasized on his interview the swapping of territories. It shows that Serbia recognizes Kosovo's independence and sovereignty, but refuses to establish diplomatic relations before swapping territories. --SpanishBoy2006 10:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Spanish chico, there you go again with your misguided observations "Serbia defacto recognizes Kosovo". Cinema C has not "changed without concensus", he has worked very hard to present this article as accurately as possible. So, to you, if controlling your territory meets the criteria to classify it as sovereign, then Transdniester must also be a sovereign country because it is completely self-governing and Moldova doesn't control any part of it. And what about Gerogia? South Osettia and Abkhazia declared their independence in 1991 and Georgian troops were even a part of the protection force which policed the provisions of the three-way agreements involving themselves, their breakaway states and the Russian Federation. Did that mean that Georgia "de facto" recognised Abkhazia and South Osettia? Nobody can ignore it when a part of its territory is occupied, or if it falls to home-grown lunatics; when a force is drvien out, it does not mean that it "recognises" the independence of the lost land. Likewise, as time goes by and it realises that this is not likely to change and life has to go on for the sake of its citizens if nothing else - it still does not mean that it "de facto" recognises it. Kosovo's authority may not be disputed, but its status certainly is. Evlekis (talk) 10:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo is a sovereign state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states --SpanishBoy2006 10:40, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Spanishboy2006 is trolling. I recommend WP:DENY. If this continues, we might consider admin action, but at this point just not feeding him would seem sufficient. --dab (𒁳) 10:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Potential future recognition by Serbia should be definitely added to the article. I don't think anyone disputes this now that Serb FM himself has said it. It should be something like this: "Although Serbia currently does not recognise the independence of Kosovo and considers it a United Nations-governed entity within its sovereign territory, it does not rule out doing so in the future either." Can we agree on this? Arianit (talk) 10:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Mentioning that is fine as long as the source is included. One more point to Spanish Boy, the list on which Kosovo appears as "sovereign" also includes the following: Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, Northern Cyprus, Palestine, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Somaliland. Evlekis (talk) 10:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Some recently vandalized so to speak. --SpanishBoy2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spanishboy2006 (talk • contribs) 11:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

On that I cannot comment. Perhaps "Vandalism" is a strong accusation given that it is at the centre of a major dispute. Nobody called you a vandal for reshaping the opening lines to indicate Kosovo borders the Serbian territory, which makes an obvious point!!! But if the page you gave on sovereign states had been manipulated to represent the POVs on Serbian Kosovo, shouldn't someone have reverted? It looked to me like a suitable spot, alongside partially recognised lands; it even contained a detailed explanation. Evlekis (talk) 11:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

@ elvekis Dont do stupid comparisonsat Osetia and Abkahzia is recognized only by Russia and Nikaragua --Lontech (talk) 13:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

the problem is that wiki is open source and even 8 years old kids can modify articles --Lontech (talk) 13:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Also ISRAEL is not recognized by most of Arab World ( arab countries ) exept Turkey being state doesnt mean all states to regognize you Israel is not disputed that egypt siria lebanon iran and other countries dont regognize ISRAEL

who gives f if serbia recognize kosovo or not or russia . KOSOVO can be state even without those recognitions like ISRAEL —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lontech (talk • contribs) 13:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

You think Turkey is an Arab country? BalkanFever 13:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

LOL arab world = Muslim world (or Islamic world)--Lontech (talk) 13:39, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

ISRAEL is STILL a STATE even its neighbors dont recognize israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world --Lontech (talk) 13:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

@Balkanfever depend for example on geographical view ISRAEL is also ARAB Country that in Fact isnt because they are not muslims u cant say ISRAEL is arab country

and no Turkey in geographical view is not Arab country but it is Islamic country Is Israel ARAB country?--Lontech (talk) 14:11, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

There are many Arabs who are non-Muslim. Many non-Arab states in turn are Muslim by faith. I mentioned South Ossetia and Abkhazia as a response to Spanishboy who claimed that a nation is sovereign when it is in control of itself. The number of countries which recognise it is not relevant to Spanishboy's point. And just as you say, who does care if Serbia doesn't recognise Abkhazia either? It can still be a sovereign state according to the "Pro-Kosovo theory of national criteria". Israel does not occupy territory which is unredeemed by another sovereign state. Since Egypt denounced its claim on Gaza, and Jordan on the West Bank, it just leaves Palestine which currently does not exist as a state. Israel's sour relationship with most Muslim countries is for a multitude of other reasons, not a territorial claim by them. Evlekis (talk) 14:17, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Get your facts straight, Egypt and Jordan have diplomatic and economical relations with Israel and so do Tunissia, Morocco, Mauritania and some othe Arab countries, including the palestinian Authority. 77.127.176.28 (talk) 14:53, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

these are facts from wiki :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Israel

No recognition or diplomatic relations

Israel has no diplomatic relations with 36 countries, 20 of them members of the 22-member Arab League. Some of the countries, with which Israel has no diplomatic relations, accept Israeli passports and acknowledge other Israeli marks of sovereignty; however, most of these countries refuse to recognize the State of Israel at all.

   * Africa: Algeria, Chad, Comoros, Djibouti, Libya, Mali, Mauritania,[2] Morocco, Somalia, Sudan, Tunisia.
   * Americas: Bolivia,[3] Cuba,[4] Venezuela[5]
   * East Asia: (Republic of China)[6] North Korea[7]
   * Middle East: Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar,[2] Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, United Arab Emirates.
   * South, Central Asia: Afghanistan ,Bangladesh, Bhutan,[8] Maldives, Pakistan.
   * Southeast Asia: Brunei, Malaysia, Indonesia

some states recognized israel after 30 years of state creation sorry but Tunisia Morocco Muritania are not on the list--Lontech (talk) 19:02, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

City names

Why are cities in Kosovo being called in Serbian language, in the first place?

There is an official regulation on this issue from the UN Special Representative Bernard Kouchner, dating back from July 2000:

• OSCE
• UNMIK Online (Albanian language)
• UNMIK Online (Serbian language)

As you can see, everywhere the name is written in Albanian language in the first place, then followed by the Serbian language. Almost all Kosovo-related articles are biased from this disruptive behavior, where cities and villages are written in the Serbian language in the first place.

I showed three links that document what I've just said. OSCE, UNMIK and also the Constitution of the Republic of Kosovo say the exact very same thing. So I'm making a call to anybody who edits Kosovo-related articles, to be constructive and follow the regulation of writing names in this order: Albanian language, Serbian language.

Lets take for example Gjakova, if you click the link, you will get redirected to Đakovica. That's absolutely POV-ness if writing the title in Serbian language for a city in Kosovo that it's absolute majority of population is Albanian.

Thank you.--kedadi (talk) 15:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Read previous discussions regarding this matter that brought us to the consensus we have now. --Cinéma C 19:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Cinama C making again disruptive editing

Cinema C is again making disrupting editing without consesus, without discussing on the subject.

Kosovo is a state, a sovereign and independent. Not even disputed.

1) Serbia defacto recognizes Kosovo 2) Serbia tacitly recognizes Kosovo 3) Serbia establishes border and custom control with Kosovo 4) Serbia does not control Kosovo, defacto nor dejure 5) Serbia recognizes the international subjectivity of Kosovo as an independent sovereign body. 6) Most Serb media, like Beta and Fonet, cleary use Nis (Naissus) as a southern town. 7) Serbia president needs permission of the Republic of Kosovo to visit 8) Serb leaders are now allowed to enter through customs and borders. 9) Regions are geographic names 10) Territory is when controls, but the inhabitants refuse to recognize the legitimacy of the ruler. Palestine. 11) Kosovo fullfils all the criteria of a sovereign state, with several UN bodies recognizes it, such as IMF, World Bank and other world institutions. 12) Serbia willing to establish diplomatic relations with Kosovo if some territory is swapped, obviously, Serbia cares about territory, because it already recognizes Kosovo. 13) Invalidity of Serb passports to Kosovar citizens. Not even, Kosovar Serbs can travel to EU. So much, about the dispute.