Talk:Jesus

Recent Archive log

Complete archive key

• Talk:Jesus/Archive 97 Removal of spurious representations of Jesus' appearance, trilemma, Mandaean views,scripture removed from historical Jesus section, Vanadalism, Pictures of Jesus, The Truths About Yeshua, Ehrman on harmonies
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 98 Proposal, Possible NPOV Violation in the Geneology Section, first paragraph, at least three years in Jesus' Ministry, this article is too big
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 99 Literature to be mentioned, Timeline of birth, four gospels, lead; nontrinitarianism, historical Jesus, Jesus as myth, Manichaeism, year of jesus's birth, Edit at top of Jesus page, Colored Yeshua, Image of Jesus which currently exists, Proposal
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 100 Historical Jesus, The To-Do Section, commenting out instead of deleting, 2008 Islamic movie on Jesus, Historical section/Christian views section, Laundry list of non-history scholars and works (alternative proposal), Its latin, isnt it?, this page may display a horizontal scroll bar in some browsers, Proposal on archives, First Section, The historical Jesus
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 101 Edit war over capitalization, Historical Evidence for Jesus' Homosexuality, Carlaude's Majority view, What exactly did Jesus save us from and how?; Carlaude's Majority view part two., Title, PRJS, Dazed and Confused, Why was Jesus baptised?, Dates, Infobox vs. the historical Jesus
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 102 religion founder, Other parameters, He is not God But rather a Demigod, Heavily christian-centric article, Jesus' Birthdate, Jesus in Scientology, Jesus name - Yeshua in Hebrew, means "Salvation" in English
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 103 Writing clean-up, Jesus name in Sanskrit, Reforem Judaism, Jesus and Manichaeism, Bertrand Russell and Friedrich Nietzsche, Recent removal, NPOV, Detail about Buddhist views of Jesus that does not make sense, The Religious perspectives section
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 104 Black Jesus, "Autobiography" of Jesus, Genealogy - Via What Father?, Addition to "Genealogy & Family", Resurrection, according to whom?, Bhavishya Purana, Christian history category, Quick Comment, BC/BCE?, The Truth, Was he any good at his day job?, In Popular Culture, jesus picture, views on Jesus and Muhamma, Occupation, New Dead Sea Discovery- Gabriel's Revelation, Some comments
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 105 Genealogy "reloaded", Place of birth, Which religions?, was jesus ever bar miztvahed?, Bot report : Found duplicate references !, Jesus and the lost tomb, Some believe that Jesus was of middle eastern ethnicity, and not a caucasian, Mispelled cat at the bottom of this talk page, Harmony, Dating system, "Transliteration"
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 106 8 B.C., ref name="HC13", Cause of death, Renewed Discussion Concerning AD/CE debate

Subpage Activity Log

• Discussion on Judaism's views moved to Talk:Jewish views of Jesus/Judaism's views of Jesus.
• Buried vs. entombed," alleged "lack of sources" archived to Talk:Jesus/Christian views in intro.
• New subpage created, Talk:Jesus/Historical Jesus, with several models of the historical Jesus and a list of sources.
• Baptism, blasphemy and sedition discussions moved to Talk:Jesus/2nd Paragraph Debate.
• Sudden move of Christ: discussion moved to Talk:Christ.
• Disputed tag and "Christian Mythology": moved to [Christian Mythology Talk] for relevancy reasons
• User:Andrew c/Jesus: sorting data b/w New Testament view on Jesus' life, Christian views of Jesus#Life, and Jesus#Life and teachings based on the Gospels.

Appearance and relationship to other religous denominations

I do not understand why Jesus is portrayed as a Caucasian, when it is quite clear that would not be what he looked like, and I am aware that the image comes from the 6th century. Also many aspects of this article are very POV, which I'm pretty sure makes it not an encyclopedia article but a piece of propaganda. Historical evidence is being taken out of books full of metaphor, It's like trying to nextract historical Evidnece from The Lord of The Rings. There is also no mention of the relationship between Jesus and other gods of the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chesterowens (talk • contribs) 06:06, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

1 That he looks white is simply a result of artistic representation of him. Everyone knows he was most likely olive skinned, and there are even some depictions of him like that in the article. But for the most part, we simply display the popular depictions of him. This issue has been discussed before. I suggest checking through the last couple of pages of archives and looking for previous discussion on the subject. 2 If you think that many aspects of this article are POV, then pick one and specify. Simply calling them POV does not help us, especially since this article has seen tons of edits by tons of editors who overall agree that it is generally neutral. Pick a sentence you see as POV and expound on the issue and a possible solution for it. We'll go over it and once it's fixed, we can move onto the next one. It's slow and tedious, but it's the only way to get things done. 3 It is true that historical evidence is being taken out of books full of metaphor, but the bible is still a historical book. Many people seem to forget that. Historians fully accept it as an authentic historical text and extract some of the events of history from the scriptures. It takes a lot of thinking and studying to figure out exactly what is literal history and what is not, but they do a pretty good job of it. For example - that Jesus existed and was tried for sedition is pretty much obvious history. That he performed miracles is not.

Historians fully accept the bible as an authentic historical text? Many fictional texts contain event references, place names, and the names of important historical figures, but are not considered "historical documents." Jesus existed and was tried for sedition is pretty much obvious history? I can find no definitive statements on this, just arguments. Can you site your references for either statement? Akuvar (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

4 There is no mention of the relationship between Jesus and other gods of the time simply because there exists no relationship between Jesus and other gods of the time. I know the Zeitgeist video and Religulous say otherwise, but it is an unfortunately common mass of misinformation. There are several big similarities between Mithra and Jesus, actually. However, all mention of Mithra before the NT was written tells us nothing about him and the documents about Mithra that do imply similarities were written after the NT was, suggesting that it is Mithra that is a clone of Jesus and not the other way around. Either way, it would be pointless, as this article is about Jesus himself. There are other articles about the supposed similarities between Jesus and other ancient Gods, and that information would belong there instead anyways.Farsight001 (talk) 06:25, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

My main concern would be during the "Constructing a historical view". "Scholars of historical Jesus distinguish their subject from the "Jesus Christ" of Christianity.[7] Other scholars hold that Jesus as presented in the gospels is the real Jesus and that his life and influence only make sense if the gospel stories are accurate." I find this method of referring to "Scholars" without naming examples, even if they are referenced misleading. I mean if the practice of generalising with evidence is unacceptable for a ninth grade level then shouldn't we set a higher standard here.

Speaking of Zeitgeist i found that all over the place, as if it could have been three separate films. By the way sorry about my earlier post it was mostly ramble. Chesterowens (talk) 16:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Is someone trying to tell me that Religulous is not the enlightened work of the intellectual elite and that Frodo really did not touch the one ring that binds us all? I am stunned. I know for a fact that Bill Maher is the most intelligent man that ever was and his film is only based upon complete, total truth and fact. In addition, I am almost positive I saw Frodo this past March 17...but I don't recall seeing the ring with my own eyes at that time. :)--^StormRider 17:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

• • According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_Mysteries the mysteries of Mithra started around 1 AD. This seems to be at odds with information on the Jesus page and the Mithra page stating Mithra is "Thousands" of years old. Is there a piece of clear evidence to support this? If not, I think an admin should strike the remark from the two pages and replace it with "about 2000 years old". If Mithra is indeed related to Zoroastrianism, there should be something from the archeological record to support this claim.-Knowl -<(I am questing for Knowledge!) (talk) 16:53, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

"House of Unas" gibberish

Just wanted to comment that I am baffled as to how that "House of Unas" wound up in there under my name. The edit I intended to make was in response to an anon IP who challenged the historicity of Jesus. The text that wound up being inserted and that Afaprof1 reverted was some gibberish (as she correctly identified it) that had been originally inserted by another anon IP about 26 days ago. I don't know if it was some error on my part in trying to revert in the deletion of the section by Ohnoitsjamie but, in any event, my "real" edit was lost and that gibberish was inserted instead. Afaprof1 right in reverting it out. I just wanted you declare that the reinsertion of the gibberish wasn't intentional on my part and that I am NOT a kook, at least not intentionally. --Richard (talk) 15:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's what all the kooks say! ;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

It is okay Richard and we know that you really don't see little blue men that sing and dance on your bed at night. Just stay calm and we will have some nice men come to assist you. :)--^StormRider 16:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The House of Unas will crush you all HAH HAH HAH!!! Slrubenstein | Talk 18:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposed mergers

There are many articles on Jesus, as can be seen at Jesus and History. Much of the content overlaps. Would it not be a good idea to merge these sites, with brief and focused fork articles to expand on certain points without repeating all the detail over again? Wdford (talk) 10:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Virtually all of those articles used to be sections of this article i.e. we had one article. That was too long. So we broke it up into these distinct articles. My recollection is one (good faith) editor did the creation of new articles by himself without much discussion. So if you afe saying that this could have been done better, and we now need to reorganize linked articles, merging some, okay, I would love to hear the plan but this time let's discuss it.Slrubenstein | Talk 18:35, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Infobox

Can someone please explain why it is POV to mention Jesus' crucifixion in the infobox? Antique Rose — Drop me a line 22:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

It's POV because of Islamic view of Jesus' death. This article is not about Christian views of Jesus and it's not about Jesus in Islam either. This article is about a man who is important for Christians and Muslims. The latter don't believe that he was crucified; they don't believe he died at all. His death deserves more than one word. Insisting on mentioning Christian belief and ignoring Islamic belief is a POV. Surtsicna (talk) 22:22, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason why the Christian belief in crucifixion cannot be mentioned in the infobox. It is biased POV only if it is the only belief that is expressed. Including the Islamic belief that Jesus' body did not die, but instead was raised into heaven (please note that Christians also believe that his body was gone from the the sepulcher and had risen into heaven, alive again) bypassing the crucifixion, erases the bias and makes the infobox neutral.

 —  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  10:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

"Cause of death" seems like an odd parameter for infobox person in the first place. What other articles include that parameter in the infobox? I'm just curious. LonelyMarble (talk) 11:21, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Any suggestion of Jesus being raised to heaven or arising from the dead pushes a religious POV (as opposed to atheist). However, the fact that Jesus was crucified is well documented beyond the religious arena so I see no reason to bring the views of any religion into it. It seems a little unnecessary to clutter the infobox with citations when it's well documented in the adjacent article, but I guess we can if necessary. Jminthorne (talk) 11:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Parallels in pre-Christian mythology...

There are many, many, academic sources discussing parallels in the mythology surrounding Jesus to that of pre-Christian deities (dying-god archetype). A section explaining this should be added to the article.24.190.34.219 (talk) 17:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

That research is reelevant to Christology, not this article. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Cause of death.

Don’t any other groups of people have a view on how Jesus of Nazareth died? I mean allot of non-Religious people think Jesus was a real person… --Frank Fontaine (talk) 15:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that most people who think he was historical also think he died on the cross - and those who think he is an amalgamation of various persons think that aspect comes from someone who died on the cross. Where it becomes iffy is in the details and after the crucification. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

See this article: Cross or stake as gibbet on which Jesus died --AuthorityTam (talk) 18:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

"most" used in the opening sentence, but not again after that

Saying "most Christian denominations" venerate Jesus Christ as the Son of God handles an important issue -- that some groups that have historical roots in Christianity or call themselves Christian don't do this. But unless everywhere where a comment is made about what Christians believe, we intend to use "most," it might be better to find another solution. I suggest: "...commonly venerated within Christian denominations as the Son of God..." Jacor2 (talk) 14:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The issue isn't the first part of the clause, which you quoted here, but the second part: "most Christian denominations he is venerated as the Son of God and as God incarnate." the problematic section being as God incarnate. And accordingly, we have a section on "Nontrinitarian views", where we explain, for example, "Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus to be God's (or Jehovah's) son, rather than being God himself", "Jesus is not worshiped as God", and "Christadelphians believe that Jesus is literally God's son, hence the Biblical title son of God,[234] not God the Son." So I believe that we already do explain why most, but not all, believe Jesus is god incarnate (and possibly even some Christian denominations not accepting Jesus as Son of God, Oneness and Unity for instance). But your criticism may be important. Do you think there is a way we could highlight these aspects more prominently so that other readers don't experiences the disconnect of content that you did?-Andrew c ^[talk] 15:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I hadn't realized that that was what was at stake. Makes sense though -- you make a good point. I think I would still make the same suggestion though. Isn't the issue the question of deciding which groups are classified as Christian and which are not? Or rather, isn't that the issue that calls the "most" phrasing into question? I suggested phrasing with "commonly," because it seems to me to be more neutral. Saying "most" is implicitly saying "but not all," which is, in this case, saying that some Christian denominations do not venerate Christ as such. Saying commonly avoids this assertion, but doesn't deny it -- it preserves neutrality, which serves the reader by not distracting him/her from the subject at hand. Jacor2 (talk) 20:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this is really a neutrality issue - it is a hard fact that not all Christian groups consider Jesus to have been God Incarnate. To imply otherwise would be misleading. I am happy to say "most" in this context, as it is more accurate. Wdford (talk) 18:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

false references

Hi. Ive spotted something that makes me think someone is deliberately lying. The article says:

"During the fourth century the birth of Jesus came to be celebrated on December 25, the same day[citation needed] ascribed to the birth of Mithras. Mithras, from the Persian god Mithra thousands of years prior", ^[31].

The reference says "Cumont, Franz, The Mysteries of Mithra (1956) pp. 1-2". According to Amazon.com

Franz Cumont is a scholar who spent his entire life studying Mithras, and one which students of the New Age have been trying to "refute," debunk and reinterpret for a generation. However, Cumont remains the towering figure in the field of Mithraic research.

This 1956 work is a copy of a 1903 Dover book, which itself was a boiled-down English translation of a far larger, 2-volume French-language work published decades before in Cumont's native Belgium. Cumont surveyed literally thousands of fragments from Mithraea, the ancient worship centers of the Mithraic religion.

So I search with Google and find that the book in question (Now in public domain) is freely aviable in http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/index.htm After that I went to pages 1 and 2, which can be found here; and guess what? Yes, There is nothing like Mithra's birthday being December 25. Moreover, the refence number 33 actully says that the Mithraic cult changed the rite to december 25 because it had been established as the Day of the Undefeated Sun by a Roman Emperor... 200 years after christ.

To sum up, the paragraph is at the very least poorly referenced, if not completely invented. —Argentino (talk/cont.) 19:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Good work! Slrubenstein | Talk 17:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Chronology

I propose to add the following paragraph under the Chronology paragraph:

Alvar Ellegård finds the existence of Jesus, at the time of Paul the Apostle, disproved by the fact that: Paul knew nothing of the existence of Jesus as his contemporary,

(May optionally be added:)

and that the following texts, (p. 31) believed to be contemporary to Paul: the Pastor of Hermas, Didache, The first letter of Clemens Romanus, The letter of Barnabas, The Letter to the Hebrews and The Revelation of John, all mentions apostles (missionaries, like Paul), but none of them mentions disciples. St.Trond (talk) 09:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe that paragraph is appropriate for the Chronology section. It already existed in the historicity article, and we really shouldn't be expanding content here that is covered 100% in a spinout article. Not too long ago there is a big fuss on this page about how long it is already. I think a good compromise might be to add Alvar Ellegård's name among the list at Jesus#Mythical_view, if you believe is is as notable and prominent as Wells and Price, or list one of his books amoung The Jesus Puzzle and The Jesus Mysteries, assuming there aren't weight issues. -Andrew c ^[talk] 23:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I would add beyond that that we should not suggest that it is a "fact" that Paul "knew nothing of the existence of Jesus as his contemporary," as this is something which, so far as I know, is basically only believed by those who question the historical existence of Jesus. john k (talk) 00:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

In other words, the vast majority of humankind. Wdford (talk) 06:08, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

If you mean to suggest that "the vast majority of mankind" deny the historical existence of Jesus you are certainly wrong. Paul B (talk) 16:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean: "In other words, the vast majority of the Christians of the humankind"? Please provide a contemporary source which says that Paul knew Jesus was his contemporary. St.Trond (talk) 06:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

No, the vast majority of mankind, which includes Christians and Muslims do by definition, but there is no tradition of denying his existence within Judaism, and it is irrelevant to Buddhism and Hinduism. Even atheists on the whole don't deny he existed, any more than they deny that Mohammed existed. Paul B (talk) 16:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. A majority of people in the world do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God. But most people do accept that he existed and was executed by Pontius Pilate. And whether or not Galatians 1:19 "really" indicates that Paul knew of the existence of Jesus as his contemporary, there are certainly many scholars who argue that it does. As such, it is completely inappropriate to present it as a "fact" that Paul does not recognize Jesus as a contemporary. It may be that the position that St. Trond is espousing is empirically correct, but it is not the dominant position in the scholarship on Paul's epistles, and as such we cannot present it as a "fact." We must rely on what reliable sources say, and there are plenty of reliable sources which dispute St. Trond's fact. john k (talk) 17:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

[King James' Bible, Galatians 1:19] "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." "Brother" usually means "having the same parents" or "being a member of a fraternity or religious group ". Alvar Ellegård, (p. 215) finds that Paul uses "brethren" about "the twelve", and about 500 persons who saw "Jesus as risen". We may guess that "member of a religious group" is the appropriate meaning. Thus James is most likely one among the apostles or members of the religion at the time of Paul. St.Trond (talk) 16:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

A wholly illogical conclusion. If all the apostles were equally "brethren" then there would be no need to say "other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." If he had said "other of the brethren I saw none save James" then the interpretation would be reasonable, but the fact that he singles out James as a brother and not the other apostles strongly indicates that he means brother in the literal sense. Of course that's before any debate about the actual Greek text. Paul B (talk) 11:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems more logical that all the apostles/missionaries were out to do their work, while only brother James remained in the temple. If we all stuck to what is logical, then there had been no entry for Jesus in Wikipedia. St.Trond (talk) 11:34, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

That James would stay in Jerusalem leading the Jerusalem group of Christians would seem illogical onlty to someone who has gicen up on the idea of a thoroughly Jewish Cristianity. In the decade following Jesus' death - when followers may have been divided as to whether he was resurrected or not, and whether God would smite the Romans and establish His Kingdom at any moment - the idea of James trying to lead a robust community of Jewish Christians in Judea is not at all illogical. St.Trond takes beliefs that he formed, a couple of thousand years after these events occured, and uses them to decide what happened. Now, that is illogical. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:06, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree with the comment regarding James, of Slrubenstein above. It describes James as an exemplary brother among the Lord's apostles/brethren, a good brother at any time of the life of a religion. However, as it does not explain that James also shares one or more parents with Jesus, it does not indicate that Jesus is a contemporary of Paul. St.Trond (talk) 18:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Your interpretation seems wild and desperate distortion of plain meaning to me, but we won't get anywhere arguing the toss. Ellegård is not a reliable source. He's an amateur. His specialism is the English language, not ancient history. The sentence can't be included. Paul B (talk) 11:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I have yet to see any evidence that Alvar Ellegård is a reliable source. I am singularly unimpressed by a purported Bible scholar relying on the King James as a source. What matters is that this is a fringe view among Bibl scholars, although persistent among some dilettantes, and the article gives it full justice. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

St.Trond is clearly trolling here. Why should we try to argue in good faith with someone who says things like, "If we all stuck by what is logical, then there had been no entry for Jesus in Wikipedia"? Let's move on. john k (talk) 18:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Chronology 2

I have reworked the paragraph, and find it convenient to reset the discussion. I propose to add the following paragraph at the end of the "Chronology" paragraph:

Alvar Ellegård finds that Paul reveals no knowledge of the existence of Jesus as his contemporary. Ellegård finds this to be a theological problem with the Christian Chronology, which has been noticed earlier. According to Ellegård, the same may apply to the following texts, which he shows to be roughly contemporary to Paul: the Pastor of Hermas, Didache, The first letter of Clemens Romanus, The letter of Barnabas, The Letter to the Hebrews and The Revelation of John. St.Trond (talk) 06:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Ellegård is not a reliable source for this article. He may be appropriate for the Jesus Myth article. Feel free to raise this at the ‎Reliable Sources noticeboard. Paul B (talk) 09:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Addition to the Purpose sub-section under '3.7 Ministry'

This section is currently good, in terms of structure: paragraph 1 quoting Jesus' description of his own ministry, followed by paragraph 2 quoting author's descriptions.

I think someone with the required permission (I'm not a seasoned editor yet) should also include the John 18:37 self-description Jesus gives of his purpose:- "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." (John 18:37)

That is all.

Rob.m.baker (talk) 00:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment on authenticity of Mark 16

Two editors (including moi) have differing views on whether a comment regarding the authenticity of the "longer version of Mark 16" properly belongs in the Jesus article. (Edit 'diff' is | here. To my way of thinking, a long(ish) article such as this, should be kept closer to the subject. The "longer version of Mark" article is already linked to in the article, so should be sufficient I think, if readers wish to explore that issue. ^rossnixon 01:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

History Assumed

I have read through previous posts, and though close, none that I could find specifically address the presumption in this sentence: "Most critical scholars in the fields of history and biblical studies believe that some parts of the New Testament are useful for reconstructing Jesus' life".

The sentence would fairly read: "Most critical scholars in the field of biblical studies believe that some parts of the New Testament are useful for reconstructing Jesus' life". OR ""Most critical scholars in the field of biblical history believe that some parts of the New Testament are useful for reconstructing Jesus' life"

This removes the following problems with the original statement: 1) Critical scholars of history are often mis-represented or under-represented in biblical studies, particularly relating to the historical Jesus. 2) The word "most" implies that to-date there has been a fair assessment of a full pool of "historians". And if (1) is true, then we are using the word "most" to define a pool that is known to be based on an incomplete survey. 3) Perhaps most critical scholars dealing only in history (and not the combined history of biblical studies) would not test-out the historical Jesus. History can be clearly removed from history related to a particular text (especially a sacred text). 3) To add the weight of "most critical scholars" of history to this argument subtly reinforces the idea that there is agreement on the historical evidence of Jesus' life.