Talk:Genesis creation narrative

Ex Nihilo

Reference to ex nihilo has been deleted as this is a theological and later concept that may or may not be attributed to the text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.197 (talk) 15:30, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Ex nihilo is ubiquitously addressed regarding these verses in biblical scholarship (even biblical scholars who don't interpret this text as ex nihilo at least take note of that fact), and notable in multiple fields of interest -- historical, philosophical, and scientific. As such it is essential for this article.EGMichaels (talk) 15:56, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

For the record - and I don't think this has been made quite clear - the Hebrew of the first sentence of Genesis 1 is inherently ambiguous when you try to translate it into English. It's not ambiguous in Hebrew, only in English. This allowed Philo of Alexandria to interpret the passage in terms of Platonic philosophy, with Yahweh (or rather, given the context, Elohim) taking the place of Plato's immaterial "uncaused cause". Philo had little impact on Jewish thought at the time, but his idea was adopted by the early Church Fathers and subsequently by the Jewish rabbis. Nevertheless, modern biblical scholars almost universally agree that the original author/s of the passage didn't have creation from nothing in mind. They believe this because (a) Plato hadn't drawn anyone's attention to the ontological problem involved; and (b) the framework structure of Genesis 1 supposes that Elohim is creating order out of chaos rather than being out of non-being. So, in brief, the modern scholarly consensus is that there's no ceration ex nihilo in Genesis 1 as conceived by the original author, whoever he may have been. PiCo (talk) 11:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Pico, Wenham goes into great detail rebutting your statement. Let's leave this to the experts, shall we?EGMichaels (talk) 12:28, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Wenham is a deeply religious man, an Evangelical Christian. It's hardly surprising that he takes this point of view. But it's not the point of view of mainstream scholars as represented by Coogan, Alter, and others. Wenham's is a fringe view, as he himself admits when writing for mainstream publications. The passage by Wenham that you refer to comes, incidentally, from a confessional Christian source rather than from a scholarly source. PiCo (talk) 04:20, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Scope Proposal (not a name proposal)

In light of what I just wrote to Hand, I propose that we try to agree on the scope of the article. Given the present title "Genesis creation myth," I think that anything not directly pertinent to Mesopotamian mythological parallels Genesis as a creation myth should be exported to other articles. Discussion?EGMichaels (talk) 18:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

This is again wandering into defining this article as just "one of many" interpretations of Genesis or "Genesis as myth" which again goes against the meaning / definition of creation myth. The scope of this article should be to describe the creation myth in genesis just like all of the other "XXXXXX creation myth" articles do. If additional sections are added that discuss various interpretations that's fine but those are just interpretations of the creation myth. In short, "Genesis creation myth" does not equal "Mythological parallels/interpretations in/of Genesis" thus the scope should be pretty clear. Nefariousski (talk) 18:32, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Nefariouski -- I'm just trying to keep this article focused to SOMETHING. Right now you're making "genesis creation myth" to supposedly equal "genesis creation narrative." Let's keep this focused on mythology and leave the rest for other (already existing) articles. None of the other "XXXXXX creation myth" articles have all this out of scope crap piled in.EGMichaels (talk) 18:51, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

This is the umpteenth time that someone has suggested that the phrasing of titles of other articles is relevant to this article. The relevant rule is Use Common Names. When people talk about creation stories, they talk about creation stories. The use of "myth" as a technical term which doesn't carry judgement with it is an academic usage which fails the UCN rule.

The section on UCN gives examples such as using Venus de Milo instead of Aphrodite of Melos. Even though scholarly articles will more often use the latter term. Or using Nazi Party instead of the full blown German name, or even National Socialist Workers Party. The same thing should apply here. The use of "story" already runs the risk of implying that the account is fiction, but by far the most common way the account is referred to is as the Genesis creation story.

Furthermore, the run-of-the-mill user of Wikipedia looking up the Genesis creation account is going to be looking primarily for what's in that account. And only secondarily what various schools of thought have to say about that account. One of these is the idea that the Genesis account cribs from Mesopotamian myths. So that deserves a section. But it hardly deserves to be the entire article. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 18:56, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Lisa, once the content fits the title, I don't think there will be a real problem. The only people who would read it would be looking for mesopotamian parallels and contrasts. Well, there are parallels and contrasts. Why not have an article on it? But the rest of the stuff needs to move to more... common... titles.EGMichaels (talk) 19:16, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Nice thought, but I think people will call POV Fork on that. Not that there isn't sometimes a reason for a POV fork, but I don't think your proposal is going to go anywhere. I think it's probably time for mediation. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 19:37, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Lisa, this may survive the POV Fork call just from the fact that the other articles already exist.EGMichaels (talk) 20:02, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Support scope change - The scope of this article must be "Genesis as a creation myth" as defined in the article Creation myth. Period. --Noleander (talk) 19:39, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Noleander -- uh, is that a typo? You just said you opposed my proposal and then argued in favor of it. I'm trying to get the article to do EXACTLY what you just said. Everything NOT about Genesis as a creation myth should be moved to other already existing articles.EGMichaels (talk) 20:00, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good. I was concerned about your limiting words "Mesopotamian mythological parallels" ... those strike me as unnecessary. --Noleander (talk) 20:14, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry -- my bad on that. Good catch :-)EGMichaels (talk) 20:15, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose the only reason why "Genesis as a creation myth" is proposed is to open the door to have other articles that present Genesis as something else, e.g. "as the real story of the world's origin". But there is no need to have various articles that only offer different (and often fringe) interpretations of the beginning of Genesis when this can be presented in a single coherent article. These constant discussions to avoid calling Genesis a creation myth make me sick. Since we call a cigar a cigar, why not call a creation myth a creation myth? There is no need to always bow to the biblical literalists. · CUSH · 07:19, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Cush, you are opposing the existence of other articles that already exist, such as Allegorical interpretations of Genesis.EGMichaels (talk) 12:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

And? Allegory is something else anyways. And even interpretations that take Genesis as symbolic still are contained within the scope of the article. "Creation myth" == "origin of the world through supernatural means". I don't see how "Genesis as a creation myth" makes any sense. · CUSH · 12:26, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Cush, why have allegory in the scope of an article about myth? Why have all the other crap? Genesis creation is a creation myth, no? Then get the non-myth stuff out of here. It's almost like you don't want to be happy unless you're unhappy about something. Why demand the inclusion of details that you so obviously dislike? There are OTHER articles already in existence to contain those details.EGMichaels (talk) 12:31, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Stop annyoing everybody with suggestions of name changes just because you don't like the word "myth". Myth is a neutral determination, and there is no reason to not have interpretations of the judeochristian creation myth in the article which deals with the creation myth. "creation myth" itself is not an interpretation of Genesis, but a description. So the as is not justified. · CUSH · 12:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? This proposal isn't to change the NAME (though I think the name is a problem), but rather to delete everything in this article that wouldn't be in it if it were something like "Norse creation myth" or "Greek creation myth." Keep the myth stuff and export the non-myth stuff. This article is an unfocused disaster and needs to get rid of all the crap that doesn't belong in a "creation myth" article. Why do you insist on treating the Genesis myth differently from the Greek myths? Those other articles don't have all the non-myth crap. Why insist on keeping it here?EGMichaels (talk) 13:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with including interpretations and impact of creation myths in the respective articles. I would prefer that to artificially splitting up articles to satisfy particular POVs. · CUSH · 14:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad that you don't see a problem with it. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is built by collaboration.EGMichaels (talk) 14:19, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Articles on books and movies often have sections dealing with interpretations and cultural impact, why should that be different for two rather short paragraphs of the bible? Because you say so and want a separate article where you can present Genesis as something else? · CUSH · 14:26, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Cush, as I said -- those other articles already exist. Piling non-myth stuff in this article is just redundant. In any case, what I was trying to say is that what you think and what I think are important parts of collaboration, but not the only parts. There are all kinds of editors here with information from reliable sources. That information needs to be located in places that readers will be able to find them. One wouldn't look for allegory under this title, or myth under the allegory title. We editors need to be aware of how searches will be done (hence Lisa's comment about common names). "Creation myth" certainly is a common title among creation myths, but relatively uncommon for most, er, commoners.EGMichaels (talk) 14:55, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Strong oppose. Cush is right - this is merely another attempt to placate Biblical literalists. As has been pointed out time and time again, Genesis is a creation myth, at least as that term is understood in reliable sources. To imply otherwise, as this latest in a long line of proposed moves does, puts Genesis on a different, and unfair, footing to comparable creation myths from other religions. Oh, and it completely ignores the gargantuan quantity of evidence that falsifies the literal interpretation of Genesis. --PLUMBAGO 10:22, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Plum, as far as I can tell, neither Noleander nor I are biblical literalists. Please stop making these bizarre accusations. My problem with this article is that it is DIFFERENT from other creation myth articles, not that it is the same. This article has a whole bunch of residual crap in it from the original article that was hijacked. Well, that crap needs to go to the other articles that exist, and this article needs to focus on the mythic aspects of the creation story. Rather than making it harder for you to get the point across (which you have such evangelistic zeal for), a focus on myth should make it easier for you. Again, my proposal is to treat this article THE SAME as the other "creation myth" articles. You are the one trying to treat it different.EGMichaels (talk) 12:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Strong oppose. Cush is right, Plumbago is right. The first two chapters of Genesis are a creation myth, no more and no less. Everything in them has to be treated.PiCo (talk) 10:47, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Pico, uh, Noleander and I BOTH seem to agree with you here. The first two chapters of Genesis are a creation myth. That's why the other crap needs to go into the other articles out there.EGMichaels (talk) 12:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

So help me understand. What is the "other crap" that you are proposing go elsewhere? Nefariousski (talk) 16:43, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Basically anything that wouldn't be in a "Norse creation myth" or "Greek creation myth" article -- especially things that already have articles, like allegory or creationism.EGMichaels (talk) 17:03, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to create the version you think would be best in your userspace for others to check out? Nefariousski (talk) 17:31, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. I'll try to put something along the lines of the other existing articles. Might take a few days. Everything's chaos over here with the new baby.EGMichaels (talk) 19:29, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

"The first two chapters of Genesis are a creation myth, no more and no less."

— Cush, Plumbago and PiCo, appendix to "Genesis creation myth", Wikipedia, 2010.

Hmmm, while I think I get your point PiCo, I'm not really sure you believe what you're saying.

I think you're impressively sensitive to the best scholarship (of all colours) when you see YHWH himself as key to this text.

The evangelical Christian community in Sydney that I come from (in keeping with a very widely held scholastic Christian tradition) views all of Genesis 1-11 as broadly a "theologically motivated polemical mythology": the theology is viewed as foundational to later biblical material, the polemic is against the polytheistic (biblically "idolatrous") cosmology of the surrounding ancient Near East.

"The first two chapters of Genesis" do not stand alone. Chapter 1 culminates in a Sabbath. Chapter 2 culminates in Marriage. Chapter 2 also sets the groundwork for a mythologically expressed explanation for the origin of sin, in turn explaining the empirically demonstrable problem of evil, worked out in detail in chapters 3 (original sin) and 4 (ongoing sin--fratricide, polygamy and violence).

Now, while I'd dearly love for the scope of the article to be as wide as possible, so we could "preach the gospel" from the many reliable sources that do precisely that from Genesis 1-3, I'm not really sure that is what the oppose votes above have in mind.

Also, given your own preference for a post-exilic date for the final composition of Genesis, PiCo, surely you'd agree Genesis 1-2 have a very specific theological agenda. Given that very notable scholastic view, it's odd you should say these chapters are myth, no more and no less. On that view, debunking the myth involves considerably more evidence and rationale than recognition of a mythological literary genre.

Ultimately, I'm not big on restricting the scope of work at Wiki, so I'm kind of with the oppose votes here. However, since motivated and educated people are gathered here right now, it might be wise for at least just us to focus our attention on things most directly bearing on the namespace topic: the mythological features of Genesis 1-2, which is a literary question, not a theological one.

Whatever people decide, clearly title and scope go together. At the moment we have a very narrow title: the literary character of Genesis 1-2. I think that's the ideal place to start, personally. It largely excludes the theological and sociological questions which are huge. But, yes, that means sorting through those other vast topics is simply being deferred to another article, or more likely many articles. Alastair Haines (talk) 05:36, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Right now I'm waiting for EGM to describe just what it is he thinks should not be treated in this article - he wasn't very explicit in his lead post, and from what he's said later about excluding sections on Creationism I might be able to agree with him. As for what In personally mean when I say that Gen.1-2 is a creation myth, I mean that these two chapters are an integrated whole that can't be torn apart - nor can you add Gen.3-11 to them, even though they all form part of the Primeval History, because those following chapters aren't about Creation. Anyway, let's wait for EGM. (Incidentally, I'm not trying to "debunk" Genesis 1-2 - I don't even like using the term "myth" to describe it). PiCo (talk)

Support I have to agree, this article seems to put a lot more into disproving this creation myth than any other myth, so either we should make the scope similiar or but all the geology all the scientific stuff else where. Weaponbb7 (talk) 22:58, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

What? This article is not supposed to deal with geology or anything that would put the creation myth into a competition with actual science. Can you point out where this article introduces "scientific stuff" anywhere? The only place where such material could possibly be referenced is a section where it deals with the far out claims made by creationists and their use of pseudoscience. · CUSH · 09:05, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose. This makes no sense at all. There is something that has music by Henry Purcell and words by John Dryden. Sometimes performers just talk like in a theatre piece, sometimes they sing as in an opera. This work is generally called King Arthur, but that title is already taken by King Arthur. So it needs to be disambiguated, and the disambiguator that was chosen is "(opera)": King Arthur (opera).

The present proposal is as if I went to that article, complaining that King Arthur isn't actually an opera at all. That it is generally called a semi-opera, but that that is an inherently POV term because it stresses the music aspect and doesn't make it sufficiently obvious how important the dialogues are. Then, after my attempt to have it renamed to King Arthur (theatre piece with music) has failed and people got so angry at my POV pushing that they even rejected the compromise proposal King Arthur (Dryden/Purcell), I would propose:

"I propose that we try to agree on the scope of the article. Given the present title King Arthur (opera), I think that anything not directly pertinent to King Arthur as an opera should be exported to other articles."

Obviously it would be even more wacky if I did something similar to push some strange idea that this semi-opera is actually a true historical account of the exploits of a historical King Arthur and his pal Merlin. I will spare you the details of that version. Hans Adler 11:34, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Hm...Adler has my curiosity up. Are we going to ever learn the details of that version??? And the King Arthur example is elegant. I still believe that the hold up with GCM is still the title. As has been pointed out, Genesis creation myth (GCM) implies that all of Genesis is a creation myth. There appears to be general agreement that is incorrect. Next, it narrows down to Gen. 1-11 being creation myth. Again, incorrect. The minimum subset, then, is Gen. 1-2, which seems widely agreed upon in the literature. As Alastair Haines points out along with his other inimitably sage editorials, the literary character of Genesis 1-2 is the ideal place to start.

I submit that the present title has been our focus of thought and discussion for so long that it's nigh on to impossible to block it from our minds to properly consider scope. Further, the text normally is driven by the title, as Adler has articulated. Creation according to Genesis still is the best title because it lacks unnecessary specificity such as "myth," "account," "narrative," "1-2," "1-11," etc. etc. "According to" is no problem because there is much precedence for use of that phrase with no truth-or-consequences valency implied or intended. The World According to Humphrey (a classroom rodent); The World According to Twitter; The World According to Mr. Rogers (children's TV program host); The Gospel According to Peanuts; The Gospel According to The Simpsons; The NBA According to the Sports Guy. None of these is taken to imply truth, except possibly for devotees of the Sports Guy. The point: "according to" is truth neutral. The Gospel According to John means different things to the average Christian in the pew than it means to a scholar who doesn't believe John wrote it.

Final observation: Creation according to Genesis was the title of the Wiki article until late 2009. It was when creation myth became an even more virulent Talk page issue that a very few editors decided not only to prevent any quashing of the phrase in the opening paragraph, but to put it into flashing neon lights in the title so that anyone offended by the term in conjunction with Genesis would be thoroughly outraged. I can think of no more NPOV title than Creation according to Genesis. Because we sometimes label certain literature as "myth" because we do not believe that the world works that way, the label becomes as way of holding it at arm's length so as to clarify that we do not share that belief (Walton, John H. "The Lost World of Genesis One: Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate." IVP Academic, 2009. ISBN-13: 978-083083704 Web: )

Thank you. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 01:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

We are evidently going in circles. Your claim that "Genesis creation myth (GCM) implies that all of Genesis is a creation myth" doesn't make more sense than the claim that "Cambridge University implies that all of Cambridge is a university", and it doesn't seem necessary to take this seriously.

Your second paragraph recklessly ignores that many of the titles you cite are parodies of titles which are intended to imply truth.

I agree with most of your final paragraph, except the claim that "Creation according to Genesis" is NPOV. It is not: The article is about a creation myth which can be found in Genesis, so "Genesis creation myth" is an obvious title. "Creation according to Genesis" is not an obvious title at all, unless you know that some people believe it actually happened that way. That's not something we should convey in the title, because it's frankly too absurd. I don't want to dig in the archives now, but I guess the attempts to purge the term "creation myth" from the article have made someone to propose the current title, perhaps as a kind of revenge, and then editors noticed the POV problem with the previous title. So far as I am concerned the article could be called "Genesis creation story". Hans Adler 01:44, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Hans, if I have the right accent and come across with a modicum of dignity and appropriate decorum, etc., "I am a professor at Cambridge" would never generate a challenge question like "Cambridge what???" "Cambridge" becomes shorthand in academic circles for the Cambridge University. Even "I'm a graduate of Cambridge," absent a reason to question the obvious implication, would not make one wonder if it was a trade school in the city.

What do parodies have to do with the "according to" argument? Let's focus just on "Gospel according to John." It doesn't sound like a parody; it is a phrase still being printed in most New Testaments; I've never heard from a pulpit a disclaimer like "The New Testament reading this morning is from the Gospel according to John—uh, I mean what everyone thought was written by the Apostle John until the Age of Enlightenment." Or, "The Old Testament reading today is from the Creation account according to Genesis 2—er, I mean the Creation myth in Genesis 2." I acknowledge that some of the parodies are a bit absurd, but then there are those who have been saying Genesis 1 and 2 are quite absurd.

I cannot find even a single suggestion that "according to" implies either truth or untruth. It's simply a statement of source. How often do we use the phrase "according to" in writing a Wiki article? Over and over again. If we are NPOV, we report the facts, what WP:RS say about the topic. We say where we find the claim, where we find counterclaims, etc.

With respect to creation literalists, I'd be very surprised if that comes as a surprise to you. Just look at any list of the various types of creationists. Creationism#Types of Biblical creationism correctly says "Young Earth creationism is the belief that the Earth was created by God within the last ten thousand years, literally as described in Genesis creation myth, within the approximate time frame of biblical genealogies (detailed for example in the Ussher chronology)." While that is neither my view nor yours, it is the view that is sacred to a large proportion of Orthodox Jews and conservative Christians that apparently would be a huge surprise to you. "Creation according to Genesis", IMHO, "fits" everyone. There is no question that Genesis contains two (some say one) creation stories or narratives or accounts or whatever; the questions begin when we go from reporting to interpreting. No one questions that it is there. There is no serious question about its antiquity or entitlement to canonicity. There is huge disparity among interpretations.

Again, I urge a return to "Creation according to Genesis" since it was the best received (least challenged) and longest-running title, and is the most neutral I can even imagine. Let's leave it to the reader's opinion about Genesis, particularly creation narratives, about the Old Testament in general. If you review the archives of the change to the present title, I believe you will agree that there was not some clear consensus, and that it was ultimately improperly performed by a Sysop in an untimely manner. That's another story, but one that should be considered when deliberating whether the mythic title even has the right to be there today.

Now, back to King Arthur. Would it be POV to write, "According to Tennyson, Arthur and Lancelot were.... However, according to Adler, there is no evidence of such a claim which he describes as "preposterous." He says more attention should be given to Merlin's role in...." ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Friends, I'm a naive optimist perhaps, but I trust working together here is far from as difficult as it currently seems.

As I read comments above, Genesis literalists are not currently represented among those of us who are presently commenting. At the risk of offending brothers and sisters I respectfully disagree with, I am willing to declare my true colours in that I do not personally subscribe to their reading of the text which is the subject of this article.

Let me add, of all matters Christians may choose to be dogmatic about, it is my experience that insisting on a literal reading of Genesis is the most counterproductive to recommending Christianity to a general audience. Were I a passionate anti-Christian, I would love the arguments in defence of reading Genesis literally to be advanced at Wiki, because I'd be confident it would give readers the same mirth it would give me. However, as a Christian who would dearly love others to "repent and believe the good news", I could surrender both humility and academic integrity and seek to silence their point of view.

But let me leave off the hypotheticals, we have work to do. As bitter a pill as it is for me to swallow, and critics of Christianity will probably not understand how very bitter it is for me to say this: Wiki policy is absolutely clear that all substantial points of view must be presented without fear or favour. We are not about truth de re (that is, the facts of the matter) but truth de dicto (the facts of what has been said about the matters we encyclopediarize).

This article is not an article about whether a God or many gods exist, or whether one God who might exist, has spoken in human history in the Hebrew Bible, specifically Genesis. There are other articles for that (though I've not investigated their quality). So there is a scope restriction already.

The question is whether we limit the current article to summarising (in a long piece of organised sustained prose) literary analysis of Genesis (as EGM proposes), or whether we also admit the question of what kinds of truth-functional propositional content there may be in the literary text we're documenting. If we also admit the latter, and indeed there is a case for that, we must document the considered opinion of the literal Genesis movement.

This is what I find strange. People who oppose the scope restriction are essentially providing a mandate for documenting the case for a literal reading of Genesis at this article. Yet some of those people have articulated they don't want that view anywhere at Wikipedia. Just as strange is the insistance on title, which also leans towards requiring some treatment of "myth" v. "reality". The new title screams for that question to be addressed and all notable PsOV to be documented. It puts the Genesis literalist PoV square on the centre of the table.

Frankly, I think Creation according to Genesis is the topic we all want addressed. It actually permits scope to document the abundant scholastic treatment of evidence that whatever truth Genesis may contain, it does not extend to a host of physcial, geological, biological or chronological details. But that also entails the presentation of the contrary POV.

What I'd most dearly love to document is the scholarship on the theological implications of Genesis. That's where I personally resonate with a vast constellation of reliable sources (however wrong they may all be). But I'm not going to push that agenda, nor fight for a title that admits it. It is such a huge topic, it can have its own article some time.

What do readers want, or what can we give them to put decision making in their hands? I return to my earlier point. The current title lends itself to the first question we should be asking about the text anyway: what is its literary character? There is more than enough material in hundreds of thousands of sources on that topic alone. Let's become experts on it, all of us. We could do some Jigsaw reading and push this project forwards. Alastair Haines (talk) 06:03, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Alastair, am I sensing ambiguity in your final 3 paragraphs above? I'm having trouble reconciling "Frankly, I think Creation according to Genesis is the topic we all want addressed" with "The current title lends itself to the first question we should be asking about the text anyway: what is its literary character?" How does Genesis creation myth provide a better venue for exploration of literary character than Creation according to Genesis? How can our defining the literary character of Genesis be of practical assistance to anyone with a genuine interest in the subject? That Genesis is an ancient text/story/narrative is nothing revolutionary by way of genre. The word "myth" predisposes many readers of Judeao-Christian persuasion to be on the defensive before they read on. We cannot become expert when there is such diversity of expert opinion. Wouldn't it be a sufficient contribution to somehow catalog in the article the main tributaries of how it is variously viewed. The range is so great: from a false belief or a fictitious story all the way to word-for-word literal from the mouth of God─and numerous intermediate positions between the two extremes.

I also will appreciate your opinion on the issue of theological basis for Jews, Christians, and to some extent, Muslims. If Genesis were only about creation, it would be a somewhat different (at least less serious) issue. But the fact is that even Jesus himself quoted from the creation passages as a source for a theological point he was making (e.g., marriage). Paul did the same thing. Then there are those who see later parts of Genesis as containing prefigurations of the salvific nature of Jesus' mission and role as "savior" and "messiah." There are myriads of folks who depend on the validity (definitions vary) of Genesis to authenticate their faith in the NT, and ultimately in Christianity. For more than 1800 years, the Christian church has upheld the sanctity and validity of the creation narrative (now plural), the sacrificial system introduced in Genesis which became NT atonement of one sort or another, Abraham, Moses, the Exile, and so on.

Clearly there are deep theological implications─perhaps literary character/genre─in how Genesis is understood. That's not our calling, however. But the strong linkage─between virtually all of Genesis and the theology of redemption in both Orthodox Judaism and New Testament Christianity─makes the Hebrew creation accounts very unique among the so-called creation myths of the world). Some say cosmogony is preferable to myth because it disambiguates the huge ambiguity in the common understanding of "myth." At a minimum, we do tremendous disservice to many in three major world religions to overemphasize the creation myth designation in the very title. Further elaboration of what myth means or doesn't mean is much like the judge instructing the jury to disregard what they just heard from a witness.

Being an academician, I acknowledge that we academics sometimes contribute more to the problem than to the solution with our esoterics. The very fact that this particular article may be approaching a new Wiki record for dissent and major unrest and accusatories certainly is telling us something. But are any of us hearing it? ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 20:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Mea culpa! Sure, I'm ambiguous in that I think all of us posting here are interested in more than just a question of literary classification: several people have expressed a concern regarding the truth value of Genesis as a chronology, others of us have pointed out the importance of the theology of Genesis. So I find it odd that we've titled the article in such a way that a discussion of literary genre is really the only on topic discussion under it as heading. Those of us who would like to document the debate in reliable sources regarding the many theological aspects of Genesis must do so at other articles. Those of us who would like to document the debate in reliable sources regarding the truth value of the chronology must also do that at other articles. It looks to me like there's a consensus that the literary genre of Genesis is one of the least of our concerns, yet we're supposed to have formed consensus that this is the topic we shall document here: the creation narrative in Genesis ... as mythological genre.

The key to my ambiguity is that, on the one hand I'm asserting the above, while at the same time I'm asserting that documenting the debate in reliable sources regarding the literary classification of Genesis 1-2 is actually an extremely valuable exercise, one so valuable, in fact, that in my own personal opinion, it is precisely the work that logically preceeds the very extensive work needed on the bigger questions we're all interested in.

So, I guess I'm not rigid about this scope question, I'm just keen that we grab the serendipity or providence of this focus on comparing and contrasting Genesis to the surrounding creation myths. Genesis is arguably the first great piece of myth-busting literature, or so several hundred or more reliable sources are going to teach us.

"The adherents of these [ancient near eastern] myths believed that by myth (word) and by ritual (act) they could reenact these myths in order to sustain the creation."

"[Genesis] serves as a polemic against the myths of Israel's neighbours".

— Bruce K. Waltke, "The Creation Account in Genesis 1:1-3: Part IV: The Theology of Genesis 1", Bibliotheca Sacra '132' (1975): 327–342.

Genesis is absolutely all about myths, and how very wrong and dangerous they are. Genesis agrees with all of us more than we recognize we agree with one another. But I should leave it to sources and the keen minds of others here to flesh that out.

Have I clarified some, good Sir? Alastair Haines (talk) 07:01, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Alastair, thanks so much for your points here. You've definitely hit the nail on the head, even in the ambiguity: we could make the article match the title, or make the title match the article. Like you, I really don't care either way. There is real value in having an article on Genesis creation in the literary genre of myth. It speaks to both sides of the issue: Genesis as myth, or Genesis as polemic against myth. I apologize for not being around much. I've been horrifically sick most of the week and have been sleeping through the days. But I did want to say I appreciate your input here and plan to take it up with you as soon as I can. I am not ignoring you here.EGMichaels (talk) 17:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Scholastic views of Genesis as demythologizing polemic (and theological prologue)

To my knowledge, scholars (Jewish, Christian and atheist) other than the Genesis literalist movement, tend towards viewing Genesis as a very carefully constructed literary work, aimed at presenting Yahweh worship as superior to the polytheistic mythologies of the surrounding cultures. The details and dating of that vary quite widely. If there's anything like scholastic consensus on anything to do with Genesis, it is this "myth-busting" one-upmanship. The technical term most often used is polemic. I'll try to provide a bit of an annotated bibliography here. I'll simply add to it from time to time without signing. I'd appreciate others contributing. Let's see how we go. Alastair Haines (talk) 14:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

The view that Genesis 1 is "amythological" (rather than the later view that it is deliberately demythologizing) is famously attributed to Julius Wellhausen, who contrasts the mythology of Genesis 2 and 3 with the "sober reflection about nature" of Genesis 1.

"In the first account we stand before the first beginnings of sober reflection about nature, in the second we are on the ground of marvel and myth. But the materials for myth could not be derived from contemplation, at least so far as regards the view of nature which is chiefly before us here; they came from the many-coloured traditions of the old world of Western Asia. Here we are in the enchanted garden of the ideas of genuine antiquity; the fresh early smell of earth meets us on the breeze. The Hebrews breathed the air which surrounded them; the stories they told on the Jordan, of the land of Eden and the fall, were told the same way on the Euphrates and the Tigris, on the Oxus and Arius."

—Julius Wellhausen, Prolegomena, (BiblioBazaar, 2007), p. 379.

• Alexander Heidel (1954), The Babylonian Genesis, Chicago University Press. [viewed as original presentation of Genesis as polemic]
• Gerhard F. Hasel (1972), "The significance of the cosmology in Genesis I in relation to Ancient Near Eastern parallels", Andrews University Seminary Studies '10': 1-20.
• Gerhard F. Hasel (1974), "The Polemic Nature of the Genesis Cosmology", Evangelical Quarterly '46': 81–102. [supports Heidel]

"The author's purpose in giving a six-day structure to his creation narrative (a structure unknown in any other ancient creation narrative) was to set forth a pattern, for man to follow, of working for six days. It should be noted that it is not only the literary structure (i.e., the six-day arrangement of the material) that relates to the theme of man's work. The content of 1:1-25 [does also.]"

—Ian Hart (1995), "Genesis 1:1–2:3 as a prologue to the Book of Genesis", Tyndale Bulletin '46/2': 315–336.

"The image [of God] is to be understood not so much ontologically as existentially: it comes to expression not in the nature of man so much as in his activity and function."

—DJA Clines (1968), "The Image of God in Man", Tyndale Bulletin '19': 101.

"There is neither a divine earth, nor divine beasts, nor divine constellations, nor any other divine spheres basically inaccessible to man. The whole demythologised world can become man's environment, his space for living, something which he can mould."

—Hans Walter Wolff (1974), Anthropology of the Old Testament, (SCM), p. 162. Translated from the original German published 1973. Review in JSOT '5Current' (1978).

Alastair, I appreciate what you're trying to do, and I agree with your overview of the field, but I think you're getting off the topic of the article. Despite the title, it's not meant to suggest that all of the Book of Genesis is myth; it's meant to be about the creation myth in Genesis 1-2, no more. Perhaps a small amendment to the title is called for to make this clear. (Ok, just saw the next thread - things move fast around here.)PiCo (talk) 04:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Alastair -- thanks for your overview. Since the current title contains the characterization of "myth" we need to include other elements that are not currently in place, such as common and unique aspects in relation to other mythological cosmogonies. Berkhof, for instance, sees the unity of humanity to be a unique aspect of this narrative. The unity of deity, and creation ex nihilo (already touched upon) should also be organized in a section for "comparison with other cosmogonies." Even if the title of the article is returned to something less polemic, the polemic aspects of Genesis should probably be retained.EGMichaels (talk) 16:56, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

Genesis creation myth → Creation according to Genesis — The article was the most Stable under this name, Secondly if the first thing we have to say in the introduction is a defense of how "it is neutral"; than odds are it is not neutral. Weaponbb7 (talk) 17:44, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

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'In this Discussion Please dont use Straw man Arguments, they insult both the User writing them and the Users Reading them'

• Support The article was the most Stable under this name, Secondly if the first thing we have to say in the introduction is a defense of how "it is neutral"; than odds are it is not neutral Current title seems to be a POV-push of how it is just myth; whether or not it is a myth or not in academia. It is unacetable to label something held as sacred to half the world (Jew+Christian+Muslim), This is not Censorship but common sense. The instability of This article since i think an acceptable middle ground would run something like

"Creation according to Genesis refers to the text found in the opening two chapters of the book of Genesis, the first book of the Hebrew Bible. This text has been identified as a creation myth by scholars,[1] and has religious significance for Christians and Jews."" (AFA Prof suggest two months ago)

Weaponbb7 (talk) 17:44, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• OPPOSE "Creation according to Genesis" implies reality, it is inaccurate and in disharmony with other articles about other creation myths. This article is not religious propaganda. We have already discussed this at great length and we will not have a small minority of editors force their ideology down everybody's throats. · CUSH · 18:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC).

According to Genesis is just what it is. if people want to take Genesis and take it as literal fact that is their prerogative. Weaponbb7 (talk) 18:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Cush, I think you're shying at shadows - does anyone think "Creation according to the Rig Veda" would imply acceptance of the Vedas as history or fact? PiCo (talk) 04:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support - It's high time this POV-pushing sham of a title was put out of its misery and restored with something more sensible and less partisan. The current title was only chosen for the sake of its offensiveness value. I think the few editors who insisted on this title have already received all the mileage reward they're ever going to get, hope they enjoyed it. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• OPPOSE Why does Christian-judeo religious belief deserve special treatment? The genesis creation myth clearly meets the definition on the Myth page of wikipedia as a "sacred myth". We haven't gone around changing Greek Mythology to something like "Heros and gods according to ancient Greeks". Christian Mythology refers to this as one of a body of myths. Myth: "academic use of the term generally does not pass judgment on its truth or falsity". Myth: "a myth is a religious narrative explaining how the world and humankind came to be in their present form" -- the term is neutral from an encyclopedic perspective. If this is changed, then the Myth article needs to be changed to say something like "Myth means that the story is false". I don't think you'll find a source on that to use as a reference! Reboot (talk) 19:03, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, theologians have never agreed on a scholarly definition of "myth", and it is a complete fiction to pretend that they ever have. (Sources.) Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Not sure why that is important. I'm fairly sure anthropologists and archaeologists would use the term quite casually. What's your point? Reboot (talk) 02:08, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose The moved to Genesis creation myth first passed 7 weeks ago (Talk:Genesis creation myth/Archive 6#Requested move .28as a way to resolve every reasonable concern.29) and was reaffirmed in this exact same request 4 weeks ago (Talk:Genesis creation myth/Archive 6#Reinstate article.27s original and title.22 Creation According to Genesis). WP:LETGO Currently comes to mind. It's time that this discussion be left and everyone move on.--Labattblueboy (talk) 19:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Labattblueboy, Observe the Archives since beginning of of those 7 weeks the past seven weeks have generated more controversy than any all the other section of the archive combined.Weaponbb7 (talk) 19:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Indeed I am aware. I went through the discussion and saw no indication that consensus has changed and frankly, I am really not a fan of seeing multiple move requests in a short periods of time. Its sets a poor precedence for people inputting request repeatedly until their desired result is achieved. You will find that my positions is quite consistent in such cases, wherein I will support moves if consensus has changed or been formed and oppose when move request are continuously hammered. I should note that I am certainly open to changing my position if consensus is clearly shown to be 'Creation according to Genesis'. My opposition is entirely based on a procedural motivation.--Labattblueboy (talk) 19:35, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

You call this consensus? I'd hate to see a page you thought didn't have one!EGMichaels (talk) 19:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not the one who makes the call one way or the other. All I can say is that two different admins, who are both extremely active in the requested move area, thought so.--Labattblueboy (talk) 20:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the last admin had the same reaction I did -- there was no consensus and a third title should be found. I then tried to bring folks together to brainstorm for a third title and was gamed beyond anything I've ever seen on Wikipedia.EGMichaels (talk) 21:22, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support The move to Genesis creation myth was out of line with the umbrella content of the article and has proven to be highly disruptive and POV. Although I do see the benefit of a Genesis creation myth article as a study of Genesis in relation to ancient near eastern myth, within the literary genre of myth -- the very people promoting the title "Genesis creation myth" are the same people who oppose limiting the article to that genre. Since the advocates of "Genesis creation myth" cannot limit the content of the article to that subject, we should return the article to its previous NPOV title.EGMichaels (talk) 19:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support There was nothing wrong with "Creation according to Genesis." It's clear, descriptive and perfectly neutral. Why use the loaded word "myth" in the title of this article, where it will be misunderstood and viewed as provocative by many readers? The technical term "creation myth" should be introduced in the body of the article where its neutral scholarly intent can be made crystal clear.--agr (talk) 20:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Weak Support I've always been uncomfortable with the "myth" language. I would prefer "Creation according to the Book of Genesis" b/c I think "Genesis" alone is a little ambiguous. But the proposed title is better than the current title. NickCT (talk) 20:32, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Abstain—votes belong to sources not editors—I choose to represent Julius Wellhausen, who says Genesis 2 is myth and Genesis 1 is not. But Julius and I graciously conceed that a vote of Wikipedia editors is more likely to establish what will help readers better than stuff written in books. Alastair Haines (talk) 21:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

But they're both Creation Myths (as defined as a religious account of the creation of life, the earth, universe etc...) hence why the title is appropriate. Nefariousski (talk) 23:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

On behalf of Julius Wellhausen, I can pass on that he has changed his mind, he wrote in 1878 that Genesis 1 is "sober reflection" but that Genesis 2 and 3 are "marvel and myth", but he is willing to change his mind since Nefariousski must know better than he does. :)) Alastair Haines (talk) 06:24, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support - "myth" carries a negative connotation. JFW | T@lk 21:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Support When terminology used by regular people and academics don't match, the rule on Wikipedia is to use the common term. All of the arguments that "myth" isn't dismissive of the account may be true, in an academic context. But that isn't relevant. Story and account are neutral terms, which do not have either a denotation or a connotation which favors one side of the question of the account's historicity. I would be willing to compromise with either Genesis creation account or Genesis creation story, but Genesis creation myth is intentionally and unnecessarily incendiary. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 21:38, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Abstain—which has the advantage that one can do it multiple times—this time I represent the Oxford English Dictionary, which I'm reliably informed isn't permitted sufferage at Wikipedia, unless an editor chooses to give it a voice.

myth 1. A purely fictitious narrative usually involving supernatural persons, actions, or events, and embodying some popular idea concerning natural or historical phenomena.

Alastair Haines (talk) 21:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Alastair Haines, i dont think any one hear is debating whether it is a creation myth, but whether it is necessary to be in the title. As an anthropologist i agree its the Genre but lets be it as the Genre and not as the title. Weaponbb7 (talk) 22:11, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Dear Weaponbb7, I am personally sympathetic to your proposal, but my opinion is irrelevant. I have simply attempted to give votes to the OED and Julius Wellhausen, who clearly agree with you that the current title is deficient. However, I'm still running around as fast as I can, listening to dead people who can speak intelligently to support your alternative title. Julius does call Genesis 1 and 2-3 "accounts" (at least in the English translation). Julius writes so lucidly and lyrically that I'm charmed away from listening to others. Must go, the dead are clamouring to be heard. Alastair Haines (talk) 22:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support a move to a neutral name without a POV problem. Grantmidnight (talk) 22:29, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose, with alternatives okay. "Creation Myth" is a standard term, with quite an anthropological pedigree. And it can be used for verifiable events, so long as it refers to a ritualized, collective imagination of how they happened. See, for example: "The scientific culture is no exception; we have our own scientific creation myth called cosmology" [1]. Still Genesis creation account or something similar sounds just peachy, too.--Carwil (talk) 22:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support-ish—grrr, I forbid anyone to count this as a vote—Genesis creation account, Genesis creation narrative and Genesis creation story seem deficient as alternative titles for this topic. Too many scholars doubt that what is being offered in the early chapters of Genesis is simply an account or narrative of creation. The Sabbath thingy, for one, has everything to do with what people actually do, rather than merely what might have happened. And some people still get married don't they? If people want this article to discuss creation in Genesis, then that is what it should be called (and it covers more and less than Genesis 1-2). If people want it to discuss Genesis chapters 1 and 2, then that is a rather odd division of the book, since chapters 2 and 3 are married to one another. Why Creation according to Genesis, when in is shorter than according to, and implies somewhat less? Alastair Haines (talk) 22:42, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Alastair, thanks for your vote. Seriously, though, how is "story" anything but neutral? If anything, it can be seen as meaning something made up. It certainly doesn't imply that it happened, even if you think "account" would. I think Genesis creation story is probably the best choice. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 23:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Noooo! Dat no vote! Yukyyy! The OED says: "Lisa is right, story is neutral, myth is not." The only problem is Julius Wellhausen and others think Gen 2ff are a story, involving borrowings from other myths, BUT (and it's a big but) Gen 1 is a "sober reflection". Not only that, "image of God", "Sabbath", "original sin", "marriage", etc. go beyond a mere alleged account of an alleged creation, in the view of many scholars. Perhaps, although Julius might not agree with Lisa, most other scholars would: "story" is a richer word than account, permitting "morality play"-type interpretations. Lisa may understand better than other editors here that Genesis is more about telling people how to understand the now rather than the then. I guess that does make it a story, but other editors might not be interested in those story parts, just the parts that are about creation, which they think are an alleged (and demonstrably false) narrative. Alastair Haines (talk) 23:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• • Strongly Support BOTH #1 Creation in Genesis; #2 Creation according to Genesis. But to my honored colleague Alasair Haines I must say, drat it! While you were writing your above thesis proposing the dropping of "according to," I was writing my below thesis supporting it. Why have none of us proposed Creation in Genesis 'ere now? It's painful to admit that it has never occurred to me.

(1) Both Creation in Genesis and Creation according to Genesis avoid unnecessary specificity such as "myth," "account," "narrative," "Gen. 1-2," "Gen. 1-11," etc.

(2) Weaponbb7 's proposal, "According to", still is a great choice. It is not even marginally POV. It is truth neutral, as is Creation in Genesis. It simply means "As stated or indicated by." The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene is a gnostic gospel not recognized as scripture by any Christian group; yet, no one objects to the prepositional phrase "According to" in its title. Christianity still accepts the title "The Gospel According to John" and it continues to be printed in many versions of the New Testament─even though many modern scholars disclaim its authorship by John. "Creation according to Genesis" is simply a good way of saying "Creation as reported by (or in) the Book of Genesis." It carries no connotation of validity. The "reputation" rests with the word "Genesis" and whatever the reader may believe about the creation narratives. But "myth" in any form carries a highly significant connotation of falsity─disclaimers notwithstanding. We collectively have wasted so much time arguing about "myth" and who has it helped? We are not writing a refereed academic journal article. We are supposedly writing for the "average reader." No one has been able to show that "myth" to the average reader does NOT mean "purely fictitious narrative."

(3) "Creation according to Genesis" was the title of the Wiki article until late 2009. It was when creation "myth" became an even more virulent Talk page issue that a very few editors decided not only to prevent any quashing of the phrase in the opening paragraph, but to put it into flashing neon lights in the "title" so that anyone offended by the term in conjunction with Genesis would be thoroughly outraged. I can think of no more neutral a title than "Creation in Genesis" with "Creation according to Genesis" a very close second.

(4) John Walton, Wheaton graduate professor of Old Testament and Ph.D. from Hebrew Union College, says: "We sometimes label certain literature as 'myth' because we do not believe that the world works that way. The label becomes a way of holding it at arm's length so as to clarify that we do not share that belief." That's hardly NPOV.

(5) This all started with a move to demythologize the article (dropping "myth" from anywhere but perhaps a footnote). I was among that group. My impression today is that the non-mythers have made a huge compromise and backed off from that stance, agreeing with "myth" being listed as an a.k.a., but not in the title. It would be so nice if the "myth group" would conciliate and meet halfway. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 23:38, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

How very astute and irenic, good Sir! It's a pity we don't have your words on the very great quality of Lisa's proposal. If we are to extend some kind of literary classification to the title, "story" seems exactly the right word to me. But if we can't all feel that we have something good to say, perhaps it is best we say nothing at all. CiG or CatG would be the way to go: "creation" first word as some people are more interested in creation de re, rather than Genesis de dicto.

Perhaps I shouldn't throw even more dust in the air, but I'm not even sure "creation" is the best word. More precise terminology would be: "origins", "beginnings", brshit (Hebrew), "archeology" (Greek), "genesis" (Latin). "Creation" is inherently POV imo, because the English language assumes the monotheism associated with the Judeo-Christian God, Yahweh. "Creation" implies an agent: "created by ..." Indeed, this is precisely what scholars identify as the radical demythologizing of Genesis 1: how is "the Beginning" to be understood? As the unilateral direct creative purpose and action of Yahweh. That is the first sentence of Genesis. Alastair Haines (talk) 23:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Now, now, now my dear academicians. Let's not overly confuse the fake scholasticism with real educated wit! ;-) Granted, bereshit is the title in Hebrew and not bara, but the subject matter of origins here falls pretty well into the more specific subject of "creation" rather than simply "beginning." I've been looking for that third alternative for a full month now, and Alastair has been the first to give one that avoids all the words both sides love to hate: I LOVE "Creation in Genesis." Bravo! Poli kala, ha chaver sheli.EGMichaels (talk) 01:39, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. It's pretty much been stated before; I agree that "mythology" is a POV violation. It has been brought up that "Genesis" may also have to be unambiguated, so a possible title may be "Creation according to Book of Genesis" or something like that. Backtable _{Speak to me}^{concerning my deeds.} 01:25, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment: Backtable's proposal is a good condensing to a potentially workable consensus. Maybe I need to take a little away from other things I've proposed, though. Reference to the whole Book of Genesis might give a little too much scope, and dilute our focus. Creation in the prologue to Genesis is my best refinement of Backtable's excellent suggestion to disambiguate the Genesis part of the title. EGM's points are also taken on board here. "Creation" simply is an unavoidable term. Alastair Haines (talk) 02:08, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose': The term creation myth is the standard (and hence neutral) term. This has been demonstrated with reliable sources (many of Oxford's reference works like their Dictionary of the Bible, Encyclopedia Britannica, and relevant experts affirming what is mainstream as opposed to cherry picking sources that simply do not use the term) ad nauseum on these talk pages, including two previous Requested Moves. In light of that, allow me to point to the archives instead of retyping all of that again, though by request I'm happy to dig them out again. Some important notes: This RM presents no new information from the past two RM's. Editors who participated in the last two RM's should be notified about this RM. Many of the support votes above wreak of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Lofty "It's POV" claims (presumably a violation of a neutral POV) tied to support votes without supporting reason or reliable sources should be discarded as a waste of bandwidth. Ben (talk) 04:08, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

What does it matter that it's the standard academic term? Wikipedia needs to be understandable to the average reader. Everyone understands "story". You know that the average reader doesn't understand "myth" the way academics do. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 04:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

"Wikipedia needs to be understandable to the average reader." For once I find myself supporting Lisa - will wonders never cease. PiCo (talk) 04:33, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Lisa, the problem is not so much that "the average reader" doesn't "understand" myth the way academics do, but rather that the editors promoting the use of the term do not use it in the way academics do. In the archives are reams and reams of arguments on the falsehood of Genesis. When pressed to give any example on any subject in which the term myth would NOT mean "false", Ben slapped me with an ANI for being unreasonable! Even after I gave an example of how several academics (Tolkien and Lewis) used the term in a pivotal conversation (in which Lewis converted to Christianity precisely BECAUSE it was myth), Ben et al were still not able to follow my lead. Given that the editors promoting the use of the term "myth" are not only unable to use it in an academic sense, and even accused me of being unreasonable for requesting such an academic sense, they can no longer be taken as credible promoters of said "academic" sense. I do know that Alastair is capable of using the term in this way, as is Afa Prof. But then, they are academics in real life (and don't just play it on WikiTV).EGMichaels (talk) 11:46, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Curious, EGM, that's a very long way of saying "Lisa is right". I'm surprised at PiCo's surprise at supporting Lisa: she's made some of the briefest and best contributions to this discussion imo. But I'm new here, forgive me. Alastair Haines (talk) 12:34, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

No, Lisa's not "right"; Lisa is "quite right." Just wanted to add a bit there! There is an irony here: those who can use "myth" in a non prejudicial way are also able to use synonyms instead. Those who demand to use the term myth, however, are clearly doing so because they are trapped in a prejudicial use. Those who claim an academic use, then, are clearly not doing so precisely because of their adamant refusal to consider anything else. This isn't the ASV, and we aren't stuck with some rigid concordance here.EGMichaels (talk) 14:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure the editors here appreciate your speculation into their motives. --King Öomie 15:10, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

King, take a look at that pointless ANI Ben hurled at me and see the repeated arguments that "well, it's not fact." And the "unreasonableness" Ben was accusing me of? Uh, asking for any example on any subject in which "myth" is used for something that is not false. That's not speculation on my part. It was hurled in my teeth on the ANI. You can't cram something down someone's throat and then accuse him of "speculation" when they gag on it.EGMichaels (talk) 17:00, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention the sock puppet crap Weaponbb7 (talk) 20:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Hey, whatever works, right? I haven't seen much of Deadtotruth after that. And to be honest, I haven't been so motivated myself.EGMichaels (talk) 20:41, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

@Ben Tillman-what case would you make for naming this article "Genesis creation myth" when neither of the sources you've listed above (Oxford's Dictionary of the Bible and Encyclopedia Britannica) refer to it by name as the "Genesis creation myth" or even contain the phrase? Although they do describe the story as a "creation myth" they do not refer to it by that name, and the reader entering that search term is "redirected" to articles with alternative titles. I've checked the Columbia Encyclopedia--same result: no use of the phrase "Genesis creation myth". Professor marginalia (talk) 17:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

This article's topic does not have a name, so mainstream reference works will simply offer a description of what they're talking about. How exactly they phrase that description will obviously vary according to editorial constraints, preferences, and so on, however one thing the mainstream references do agree on is the descriptor creation myth. Our article title (description) must be consistent with other mainstream reliable sources (NPOV) up to terminology used, not word order. The current title satisfies this. As an added bonus, this article title is consistent with our other similar articles, including the main creation myth article, which is undoubtedly helpful to our readers and editorially sound. It's easy to find sources that use the exact phrase "Genesis creation myth" (I was recently reading Tree of Souls and it had no problem using that phrase), but this completely misses the point: this article's topic does not have a name. Ben (talk) 01:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

It isn't referred to as proper name, but it is commonly referred to by a handful of terms that are very close to a "name". The Tree of Souls probably isn't the best representative of "common usage". The book is about myth, Jewish myth, and every page in it talks about one myth after another taken from the Hebrew texts, almost none of them besides this one will have "myth" in the article here in Wikipedia. Using this book as a guide, why not Genesis flood myth instead of Noah's Ark, Myth of Enoch instead of Enoch (Biblical figure), Myths of the Messiah instead of Messiah, and the Exodus myth instead of The Exodus. (Notice again-no redirects because nobody talks this way. I will say that "Genesis creation myth", like these, is an atypical usage for most contexts--that makes it awkward to use in most sentences). Professor marginalia (talk) 03:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. The present title is leading to confusion and instability. Incidentally, Genesis 1-2 is only one of a number of places where the Hebrew Bible deals with creation - it might be more inclusive if the title were Creation according to the Hebrew Bible. PiCo (talk) 04:15, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Regarding PiCo's point, it's beyond the Hebrew Bible. For example, Gen 14:19; 14:22; Deut 32:6; Eccl 12:1; Isaiah 27:11, 40:28, and {{Bibleref2-nb|Isa|43:15}. Several New Testament passages also affirm the Genesis 1-2 creation narratives: Rom 1:25; Col 3:10; 1 Pet 4:19, and others. They are affirmed by Jesus in the Gospels of Matthew19:4 and Mark10:6. Not only is it a creation account, narrative, story, and anything creation myth might represent, Genesis is the beginning of the development of the doctrine of creation to the Christian faith. According to "The doctrine of creation" in The Cambridge Companion to Christian Doctrine, "among all the theologies, myths and theories, Christian theology is distinctive in the form and content of its teaching. It is credal in form, and this shows that the doctrine of creation is not something self-evident or the discovery of disinterested reason, but part of the fabric of the Christian response to revelation." The Apostles' Creed, recited in thousands of Christian churches every Sunday, begins: "I believe in God the Father, maker of Heaven and Earth." That foundational theology comes from Genesis. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm very impressed with PiCo's ability to both to modify his position slightly in response to other opinions, and more importantly to extend the proposal in a direction that allows key reliable sources to be recruited to help us give readers a complete picture. Like PiCo and AFA Prof01 I agree we could helpfully expand the article, without it becoming unwieldly, by incorporating scholastic analysis of the well-known Genesis passages alongside a substantial but very countable and finite set of "creation and myth" related passages in Hebrew Bible and New Testament. I lean more towards PiCo's suggestion, because extending to the New Testament means we'd be inclusive of Christians, but exclusive of Muslims and Mormons. Expanding to incorporate those movements would make this article cumbersome.

Perhaps some of the boffins here could allay any concerns the rest of us might have, by giving a list of the "creation and myth" related passages most pertinent to addressing the issues most readers would be interested in regarding the first few chapters of Genesis. I do remember once personally finding very helpful, scholastic examination of various Psalms and Job in comparison and contrast with Genesis and the surviving ANE literature.

I'm also particularly keen to hear back from editors opposed to the current proposal. I want to ensure that we have heard them clearly, that we are all aware of the sources they cite in support of their position, and that every possible attempt is made to reach a common mind, rather than a "lowest common denominator" compromise. If they're not very active, I may take up their cause, as best I can, to ensure we don't crowd out important sober criticisms in the current, apparently rather one-way direction this discussion seems to be going.

But to be very specific just now, AFA Prof01, Sir, how do you feel about keeping things to just the Hebrew Bible? Alastair Haines (talk) 12:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Whether the article discusses only references in Hebrew scriptures, or includes references from scriptures Christian, Mormon, Islamic or whatever should not affect the title. The primary subject of this article is still the account in Genesis. If there is an account of creation in the Bible that is not based on Genesis (and I am not aware of any) it might be mentioned as an aside here or have its own article if there is sufficient material for one. --agr (talk) 17:08, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed.EGMichaels (talk) 18:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Alastair and agr→I'm losing track. As far as keeping things just to the Hebrew Bible, aka Old Testament, are we saying "Creation in Hebrew Bible" (or something similar)?

I agree with agr that the primary subject of this article is still the account in Genesis─which leads to the question of how much of Genesis, but if the title does not specify quantity, then we don't need to deal with that today. I also agree that the subsequent biblical, and possibly qur'anic, creation references that are clearly based on Genesis can be handled in their own sections within the article, or in their own articles given sufficient material─also a future decision. In principle, I am amenable to most any title proposals that refer to Genesis or Hebrew, sans "myth" or any variation of that term. I also accept your concern about "creation" moving to "origin" or other more neutral synonym.

Re: New Testament. In re-thinking my initial objection and the comments that followed, I withdraw my objection to PiCo's idea. My hope is that the agreed-upon title neither demeans nor denigrates post-Genesis OT or NT references and quotes back to the Genesis accounts. Thanks! ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 23:48, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

OPPOSE "Creation myth" can't be parsed out into "Creation" and "myth", electoral college doesn't equal a university where people study elections etc... Formal / informal etc... (it's all in the FAQ) Not to mention policy support is overwhelming for current title.

• WP:WTA#Myth and Legend

(relevent sections) "Formal use of the word is commonplace in scholarly works, and Wikipedia is no exception...be consistent; referring to "Christian beliefs" and "Hindu myths" in a similar context may give the impression that the word myth is being used informally." Being that the usage of "Creation Myth" in articles (and their titles) about creation myths is near unanimous across different belief systems changing this convention for Judeo-Christian related articles violates the word and spirit of WP:WTA. A sample of the other articles are as follows:

Chinese creation myth

Sumerian creation myth

Ancient Egyptian creation myths

Pelasgian creation myth

Tongan creation myth

Mesoamerican creation myths

Creation Myth

Keeping in mind that this isn't a case of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS since WP:WTA makes a specific example for uniform usage and the usage of "Creation Myth" is clearly the dominant usage for Religious and Supernatural cosmogenical articles.

• WP:RNPOV

Usage of "Creation Myth" is clearly in line with this policy. The policy states "Wikipedia articles on history and religion draw from a religion's sacred texts as well as from modern archaeological, historical, and scientific sources." The latter three almost unanimously use the term "Creation Myth" while the first describes it as a historical fact (which we should not use for a myriad of reasons that I'm sure everyone reading this understands).

At best if any reliable sources can be found that are critical of usage of the term "Creation Myth" (not myth as a stand alone since the Electoral College can not be classified as a College any more than definitions of myth, particularly the informal/colloquial definitions can be applied to the term "Creation Myth") a section disucssing this criticism should be added to the article and the main Creation Myth article but shouldn't contradict usage of the term per "Some adherents of a religion might object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith because in their view such analysis discriminates against their religious beliefs. Their point of view must be mentioned if it can be documented by notable, reliable sources, yet note that there is no contradiction."

Per the section that states "Several words that have very specific meanings in studies of religion have different meanings in less formal contexts, e.g. fundamentalism and mythology. Wikipedia articles about religious topics should take care to use these words only in their formal senses in order to avoid causing unnecessary offense or misleading the reader." editors of this article have, in good faith, created a FAQ, cited formal definitions, wikilinked to the main Creation myth article (which also has a detailed formal definition) and added a footnote to the the term "Creation Myth" to further clarify formal usage. All of which meet and possibly exceed the due diligence required to ensure that the formal meaning is understood.

• WP:UCN

Usage of "Creation Myth" in the title has been furthermore contested after the first article RM, another RM was started about a week later to remove the term from the title, that RM also was declined and closed (albeit with some arguement and complaint regarding it possibly being closed too soon). UCN tells us "Articles are normally titled using the most common English-language name of the subject of the article. In determining what this name is, we follow the usage of reliable sources, such as those used as references for the article", considering the vast majority of cited sources including archaelogical, scientific, historical and other scholarly/academic writings use the term "Creation Myth" as opposed to other colloquial variants the title meets UCN.

Furthermore the usage of "Creation Myth" abounds in reliable sources doing a quick google search shows that its use clearly meets the "common usage" section of UCN "Common usage in reliable sources is preferred to technically correct but rarer forms, whether the official name, the scientific name, the birth name, the original name or the trademarked name"

UCN also tells us "Where articles have descriptive titles, they are neutrally worded. A descriptive article title should describe the subject without passing judgment, implicitly or explicitly, on the subject. " alternatives such as "Story" or "account" imply value judgements regarding veracity one way or the other (Story most often being defined as fiction, account commonly being used in factual / historical context). Additionally changing the name causes a loss of precision (also discussed in UCN) since "Creation Myth" is the formally defined academic term and as such doesn't allow for any ambiguity (only one definition) whereas other alternatives do.

Some editors have brought up different variants of google tests that show "Creation Story" or some other suggestion to have more "hits" than usage of "Creation Myth" again we look to UCN for guidance and see "Titles which are considered inaccurate descriptions of the article subject, as implied by reliable sources, are often avoided even though it may be more common. For example, Tsunami is preferred over the more common, but less accurate Tidal wave." which tells us that accuracy should value accuracy above hit counts when colloquial and non-arcane formal terms are in consideration for a article name.

• WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV

Using terms and phrases such as Creation account/story or Creation according to... Violate NPOV policy since they either provide a value judgement regarding the veracity of the creation myth in question or they assume that there is only one interpretation of the creation myth (in the account of "Creation according to Genesis". Being that even amongst religious circles significant interpretation and variation of Genesis exists usage of language like "according to", which implies a single interpretation invalidates alternative interpretations or opens the door for a myriad of alternative articles like "Creation according to Genesis (Mormon Interpretation)" et, al...

• WP:NOT#CENSORED

Included for reasons already stated and re-stated above

Nefariousski (talk) 23:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Apart from UCN those refer to article content not title. UCN actually supports the move to a neutral title.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 23:47, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• SUPPORT move, per user agr and WP:UCN. A title such as myth is telling people what to believe, an encyclopedia needs to be neutral.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 23:47, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• oppose. There's nothing terribly wrong with "creation according to Genesis", but if people are going to write (and read) an encyclopedia they ought to learn what "myth" means in a scholarly context. The use of the word has nothing to do with whether the story is true or false. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:32, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: Akhilleus — I don't think Wikipedia has a mission to promote "scholarly" terms. The purpose of a title is to identify an article. Within the body of the article is ample space to wax eloquent on the "scholarly" use of the word myth in relation to the subject of the article. But "myth" is not an indispensable term to the basic purpose of identifying the subject of the article. Bus stop (talk) 10:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose: this title is neutral in that all creation myths share the same format. There is no policy-based reason for this one, or any of them, to be different. I see a lot of "I don't like it" and "it makes people uncomfortable" but no arguments based on policy. Auntie E. (talk) 00:42, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: I've gone through the exercise of summarising arguments for and against. It seems to me that what is claimed above is close to the truth: we are getting to the point that there is little new information (see Ben's comment). The basis of conflict is clear and the relevant policy is cited by both sides and claimed in support of both positions: all points of view from the neutral point of view--WP:NPoV. The question, according to people who've posted so far, is: whether formal use of the word "myth" (see WP:WTA#Myth and Legend) in the title presents Genesis as "purely fictitious", according to the common usage of the word, which would certainly be PoV, or whether failure to use the word in this formal sense would introduce a PoV treatment of Genesis in comparison with the creation myths covered in other articles.

The support case boils down to insisting on WP:UCN and the oppose case boils down to insisting on WP:WTA#Myth. Personally, I think WP:WTA trumps WP:UCN (Though it should be noted that WTA does say formal senses of myth are diverse and recommends "use care to word the sentence to avoid implying that it is being used informally", emphasis added). Were that all there was to the matter, were I closing this discussion, I'd close it as proposal rejected.

However, there is, in fact, a lot of information that has not been presented in the discussion above. If we allow the oppose case to stand--"myth" in the title is the formal usage--then the applicability of that formal usage depends on reliable sources having a unanimous (or at least consensus) agreement on the applicability of the word "myth", in its formal sense, to Genesis or to some identifiable part of Genesis. If reliable sources diverge, we cannot use the formal sense without favouring those who apply myth to Genesis over those who don't.

So, to close this discussion, we must turn to reliable sources of information. The support case will be upheld if it can be demonstrated that at least a significant and notable minority of scholars consider Genesis not to be formally classifiable as myth. The oppose case will be upheld if it can be demonstrated that all but a WP:UNDUE minority of scholars consider Genesis to be myth in the formal sense of the word.

Because of my day job, I happen to know dozens of reliable sources that think Genesis is self-consciously demythologizing literature. And that doesn't even count Genesis literalists, who I don't spend much time reading. Even excluding that--I would think--rather notable group, there is sufficient scholarly opinion that Genesis is "anti-myth" or "polemical", that Wikipedia would look ignorant or partisan were it to title this article as though they didn't exist.

I've interacted in this thread considerably more than I intended and now I will leave it. I think editorial opinion has gone as far as it can, and nothing new will come up. It is now up to people to actually turn to reliable sources to see how they can decide the matter for us.

If anyone actually looks, they will find plenty of (non-Genesis-literalist) scholars who do not think "myth" in its formal sense is a suitable description of Genesis. Anthropologically, for example, other things, but not creation, were ritualized in ancient Israel. The formal concept of myth is absolutely important in scholastic treatment of Genesis, because, in it's day, it was the mother of all myth-busters. If you can't find the scholars who say that, you're either not looking, or you're beyond help. ;)

Best wishes to all, Alastair Haines (talk) 05:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Alastair WTA is about article content so how can it trump UCA which is about naming articles?--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 12:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

How does WTA#Article and section titles lead you to that conclusion? Alastair Haines (talk) 18:55, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support Though Genesis creation story or "account" are both preferable. WP:COMMONNAME trumps the "myth" policy, and the current title is in fact strikingly rare in scholarly use as an overall term, though there is no shortage of sources treating the Genesis story as a creation myth, but that is a different matter. I won't repeat the statistics on this, originally produced by D Bachmann, but they're here. Johnbod (talk) 15:48, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I would think sources that treat Genesis as a creation myth count in favour of the current title, even if they don't show up in searches on the terms "creation myth" or "Genesis creation myth". But I don't want to frustrate people I agree with any more than I already have. Thanks for this input, John. Alastair Haines (talk) 19:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

This discussion is about the title. Creation myth should be mentioned very early on, and linked, but that does not mean we need it as the title. Johnbod (talk) 21:50, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose but .....yech..that "note" attached to the article name needs to go! According to WP:COMMONNAME the "neutral" arguments are irrelevant. What matters is the terminology most commonly used. Using that standard, and my several very ad hoc hit counts (scoping google, google scholar, google books, the handful of online reference libraries I have access to and printed sources I've collected on the subject) to gauge common usage in reliable sources (and without the wiki padding the counts), Creation according to Genesis is the clear loser. But first is "Biblical creation story", no "myth", or Genesis creation story. Next come Genesis creation account or Biblical creation account. Both versions using "myth" fall way behind. However Creation according to Genesis is very clearly in last place. The fact that neither "Biblical creation account" or "Genesis creation account" have redirects, even while they're far more often used terms than "Genesis creation myth", is telling in itself, but having witnessed I don't know how many edit battles over pipes like [[Genesis creation myth|Genesis creation] ], I will say both the pro and anti "myth" fiends are scratching their own private itch and need to put the guns away and defer to sources. Give It a Rest already. Professor marginalia (talk) 06:13, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Summary

The following is a summary of comments above, irrespective who offered the comments, or how many people did. Except for comments regarding points of order (or process), comments regarding the presumed motives or attitudes or alleged behaviour of other parties have been omitted.

• Proposal: rename (and move) article
• Main issue: word "myth" in current title
• Alternative titles:

1a Creation according to Genesis, also

1b Creation in Genesis (choice of preposition);

2a Creation in prologue to Genesis, and

2b Creation in Hebrew Bible (choices of scope);

3a Genesis creation account, and

3b Genesis creation story (choices of genre designation).

• Points made to Support move:

• "myth" is not neutral (implies "purely fictitious" OED, see also WP:NPoV)
• "myth" is PoV (e.g. Julius Wellhausen thinks Gen 2 myth, Gen 1 not myth, see also WP:NPoV)
• Sense of "myth" is not ordinary English usage (OED, see also WP:UCN)
• Article history shows "myth" to have destabilized content -- verification?
• Use of "myth" in title requires explicit disambiguation in text
• Technical use of "myth" is best introduced and applied within the article
• Many scholars believe Genesis (particularly chapter 1) to be deliberately demythologizing in an ANE literary context (WP:RS and WP:NPoV)
• WP:COMMON; the current title is much less commonly found in scholarship than alternatives [2].

Point of order

• Recent change of title to include "myth" based on poor process

• Points made to Oppose move:

• Absence of word "myth" from title implies Genesis is factual (WP:NPoV)
• "myth" does not imply purely fictitious (see Myth)
• "myth" applicable in anthropology when there is collective ritualization
• "creation myth" is an inseperable collocation, or standard phrase (no one was there at the time)
• There are lots of "creation myth" articles at Wikipedia (WP:NPoV)

Points of order

• This decision has already been made
• There is no new information in this discussion -- verification?

Alastair Haines (talk) 04:36, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment For consistency with religious cosmology, Islamic cosmology, Hindu cosmology, Buddhist cosmology etc. the correct title for this article is Judeo-Christian cosmology. Currently we have Biblical cosmology, which is not as complete and should be merged into this article, and Christian cosmology which is a redirect to Biblical cosmology. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:47, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

  Nonsense. There is so much more to this article's topic than cosmology. This article is about the creation myth found in Genesis, that is all. Ben (talk) 23:41, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support change to Biblical cosmogony or Judeo-Christian cosmogony (after corrective moves) ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 21:30, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support change to Biblical cosmology, and merge content into that article. Excellent catch. Ἀλήθεια 14:29, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment: cool new suggestion, though it suggests a survey of all existing Genesis-Creation-Cosmology related article titles currently at Wiki wouldn't go astray in helping people consider coverage with adequate information. Alastair Haines (talk) 19:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment for clarification: I would be glad to assume responsibility for any searches and/or corrections or redirects should this proposal necessitate it. I very much like the idea of Cosmo...(something). In strict usage, cosmology refers to the study of the universe as it is now (or at least as it can be observed now); cosmogony refers to the study of the origins of the universe. NASA had to struggle with the terms when it conducted the Genesis Mission. (Interesting that they report no struggle with the word "Genesis" and went forth with it.) It would appear that we have some Wiki article titles that might need correction. Here is what NASA has written about it:

Cosmology is the study of the structure and changes in the present universe, while the scientific field of cosmogony is concerned with the origin of the universe. Observations about our present universe may not only allow predictions to be made about the future, but they also provide clues to events that happened long ago when...the cosmos began. So—the work of cosmologists and cosmogonists overlaps.

— http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/educate/scimodule/Cosmogony/CosmogonyPDF/CosCosmolTT.pdf

• Support I don't think that "standard terms" are necessarily neutral. We say holocaust denial to indicate the widespread belief in the non-Islamic world that the Holocaust is real, and that the deniers are promoting a POV that is outside of the historical mainstream. Likewise, we speak of scientists disagreeing with the "consensus" about global warming indicating that their view is within the scientific mainstream.

• It would really help our NPOV policy if we would take pains to use neutral titles, as opposed to titles which imply support for a mainstream against a minority. Creation in the Book of Genesis is 100% neutral, in the sense that it makes no comment on whether the Book of Genesis is right or wrong.

• The whole point of neutrality is for us to step back editorially from presuming to evaluate the veracity of sources. We merely say that A said B about C. I thought this was settled way back in 2001 and 2002, but apparently there has arisen a "consensus" that we shouldn't be neutral any more lest we mislead our readers somehow into thinking that two opposing POV's have equal validity. --Uncle Ed (talk) 00:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

In support of what Uncle Ed is saying above, I find at WP:AVOID: "Article and section titles should be chosen, where possible, to avoid implying a viewpoint." Bus stop (talk) 01:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

If "myth" were being meant in a non-judgmental way, there would be no need to retain it in favor of any other other neutral synonym (or in the case of "Creation in Genesis" no synonym at all).EGMichaels (talk) 01:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. I support the move from Genesis creation myth to Creation according to Genesis. The title presently on the article gratuitously carries commentary. Titles should identify subjects and go no further. The phrase "creation myth" represents a characterization of Genesis that is not intrinsic to its identity. That other articles use the term "creation myth" may or may not be justified or represent the best title for those articles. Our responsibility is to get the title right for this article. We should not rely on what in some instances may represent missteps in naming other articles. The particulars of each article should be examined individually. Bus stop (talk) 02:04, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. If you want to promote biblical literalism, or protect the tender eyes of Christians, go to conservapedia. It's a creation myth not unlike all the other creation myths and we should not give it any special place of privilege by naming it in a way that falsely implies some rational basis for believing it. —David Eppstein (talk) 15:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

That's a straw man argument. I don't know of anyone promoting the view you seem to oppose.EGMichaels (talk) 16:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. The terms "creation myth" and "creation mythology" apply ex vi termini to all religious traditions. Presuming exceptionalism for the Book of Genesis will not change either common English usage or basic Wikipedia policies. Keahapana (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

This isn't about exceptionalism, but about use. It is not the most common term, and in fact links in other articles require Creation according to Genesis in many places just to lure people into this article. If you have to hide behind an entirely different name just to pull readers in, why not use the functional name?EGMichaels (talk) 21:27, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support This move was done in stealth without fair consultation with the religious WikiProjects who contribute to this article. It's obvious from the great deal of opposition to the move, that the reason for this is because the move couldn't have possibly occurred otherwise. It's time to change the title back. Masterhomer 02:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support I agree, this title change was a strange move, and that it's time to change the title back. I have been fully convinced by Alastair Haines arguments and his use of sources to hold up his position. SAE (talk) 12:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose; those who think "myth" is pov are not familiar with the correct terminology. You might as well go argue for a move from Retraction to Changed my bullshit statement (per The Fugitive (1993 film) for those of you unfamiliar with that, as well.) Ignorance is no argument; nor is faith. This is not the Catholic Encyclopedia; nor is it Conservapedia - the threshold for inclusion here is verifiability, not truth, and the rationale for terminology is and should remain accuracy. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 17:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: My primary argument would not be that myth is POV. My primary argument is that myth is extraneous. A title doesn't need added commentary. A title needs essential material. The purpose of a title is identifying the subject of the article. Adding the word "myth" to the title adds unnecessary commentary. No — no one said this was the Catholic Encyclopedia — except you. You are arguing against a straw man. Obviously there are those for whom the Book of Genesis is literally true. But they are not arguing for an indication of that in the title. The article is adequately identified by a title such as Creation according to Genesis. Yes — the threshold for inclusion here is verifiability. And there is adequate space within the body of the article for exploring all the verifiable material pertaining to Genesis as a "creation myth." Bus stop (talk) 20:37, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is a page about a creation myth found in an ancient text. Creation doesn't proceed "according" to a text, that's backwards. It's like calling Ragnarök something like Destruction according to Poetic Edda. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: The phrase, "Creation according to Genesis," is not prescriptive; it is descriptive. The Book of Genesis describes its version of how creation came about. It is not telling us how creation should come about, or will come about. Bus stop (talk) 21:09, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment -- I think "The End of the World According to the Poetic Edda" is an interesting mental exercise that demonstrates Alastair's suggested title. "The End of the World in the Poetic Edda" simply shows a literary portion of that mythos, just as "Creation in Genesis" shows a literary portion of the biblical mythos. Readers, sources, editors, and article are completely free when discussing what the text says without embedding a value judgment within the title. Thanks for the example, Science! "The Poetic Edda End of the World Myth" is both unwieldy and unnecessary. It is more off balance than Thor's unfortunate mjolnir after Loki turned himself into a gnat and spoiled the forging of the thunder hammer. But "The End of the World in the Poetic Edda" is far superior. Perhaps we can make a small aside (while I'm offline for Pesach for the next two days) and explore the proper title for Ragnarok. OF COURSE "Ragnarok" is the best title, but only because it has such a snazzy name all to itself. Let's assume it didn't have such a cool name and come up with a different hypothetical title, using the same arguments we have been using about the present article. If a particular argument becomes recognizably silly (or unnecessary) for "Ragnarok" then we might see it easier. The first thing I would like everyone to notice, though, is that the title is not "Ragnarok myth". The "myth" is unnecessary.EGMichaels (talk) 21:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Poetic Edda eschatology would be the correct one since it incorporates the term in most common academic use. The parallel to something like Poetic Edda creation myth (or Book of Revelations eschatology for a needed article on the tales told in that particular book) is obvious to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScienceApologist (talk • contribs)

• Support change. I am now convinced by the sound reasoning of Alastair Haines. It would be helpful to build out the new article on Biblical cosmogony. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 03:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources

Pico, you deleted refs that included Philip Schaff on the basis that the refs weren't by biblical scholars. Philip Schaff founded the United Bible Societies and edited/authored/produced dozens of scholarly biblical references including the 30+ volume set on the early church fathers as well as an 8 volume set on the history of the christian church and a four volume set on the creeds. Your deletion of Philip Schaff's refs on the basis that he isn't a biblical scholar is nothing more than vandalism. See 08:51, 22 March 2010 PiCo (talk | contribs) (69,263 bytes) (None of these are reliable sources - please stick to biblical scholars.) Please explain.Deadtotruth (talk) 20:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Philip Schaff died in 1893 - more than a century ago. The field has changed radically since then, and he can't be accepted as a reliable source. You should try to restrict your sources to those published in the last 15 years, as anything prior to that is likely to be out of date. The bulk of your "sources" are such irrelevancies as astronomers, mathematicians, and journalists. Please explain why you think these are acceptable sources for a scholarly article. I'll delete the silly ones in three days unless you can provide a good explanation.PiCo (talk)

The field is relatively small, and limiting reliable sources to the past 15 years isn't reasonable. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 03:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Lisa, the field of biblical studies of ancient Hebrew religion has undergone a revolution since the 1980s with the work of Smith, Day and others - no contemporary scholar would get his work published if he didn't take this into account. Therefore a cutoff around 1980 is entirely reasonable. PiCo (talk) 03:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Pico, if Schaff isn't a biblical scholar, NO ONE is. Give it a rest.EGMichaels (talk) 04:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

EGM, we're talking about reliable sources, not biblical scholars. Of course Schaff was a biblical scholar - but "was" is the operative word. PiCo (talk) 04:22, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Pico, you're being unreasonable. Besides, you deleted Wenham half a dozen times too. You can't just delete things and make up reasons as you go.EGMichaels (talk) 04:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I certainly don't want to be unreasonable, and I sincerely believe that I have a good point. I don't know that I can state it any more clearly than I already have, but I'll try. Wikipedia has to be based on reliable sources - I think we can agree on that. As this is an article about an issue in biblical scholarship, that means we have to use biblical scholars - who do, in fact, study the influence of ANE myth on the HB (Wenham does this himself). Biblical scholarship, like any field, advances and changes over time - later scholars build on and incorporate the work of earlier ones, theories which seem solid are overturned, new ones arise, and for this reason we need to use the latest scholarship available to us (hence my choice of a cut-off of about 1980, when the current revolution in scholarly approaches to the HB got underway). For this reason Schaff is not acceptable as a reliable source - anything valuable in Schaff will be reflected in contemporary scholarship, and outdated ideas/readings/etc will be avoided. Similarly, we can't use journalists, mathematicians and astronomers as sources on biblical scholarship. Finally, Wenham: yes, I hope you'll put the book you have in mind here, and then I'll tell you why it's not a reliable source - note that it's not Wenham himself who's at issue, but the publication he's writing in. PiCo (talk) 04:43, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

By your logic Darwin couldn't be quoted in an article on Darwinism. Schaff is one of the foremost biblical scholars ever. As for the publication Wenham was writing in, it was his own commentary on the book of Genesis that you deleted -- over and over and over again. Stop trying to delete other people's work and instead try to help people add to the encyclopedia.EGMichaels (talk) 04:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I've just checked back to the article, and I can't see either Schaff or Wenham - are we talking about the same thing? (I'm talking about the list of about 12 footnotes in the first sentence of the 3rd or so paragraph of the lead). As for Darwin, no, if we interpret Wiki policy strictly and correctly, he shouldn't be quoted directly in an article on evolution, only indirectly through secondary and tertiary sources. Things move on in the field of evolution, too.PiCo (talk) 04:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I think we all agree that the idea of basing Wikipedia on secondary sources is essential, and actually part of the foundational pillar WP:RS. However, in my experience, it is poorly understood even by established editors, and is frequently used as a bid to silence precisely the RS we need to be depending on. The problem is that people latch on to the idea, but push it to mean something it cannot mean: "whoever speaks most recently settles the matter." Wikipedia is not about "settling the matter."

We probably need to produce a clearer explanation of the epistemology of Wikipedia, and I don't think it's all that hard in theory. The history of reliable published commentary on topics can be approximated by a tree, with branches at various points where contemporary scholars diverged into various PsoV. It is our job to give readers a picture of the whole tree, ideally verified by a reliable source on the history of debate on a given topic. We may ignore minor branches if they are WP:UNDUE, but major branches must be included.

Sources from the last decade cannot be priveleged over earlier sources, because in ten years they themselves would become redundant. Unlike normal publishing where writers often argue to a conclusion, we are liberated from that responsibility. We are simply documenting the history of published ideas up to the time of writing. Wikipedia should grow over time, because it has more history to document, unless scholarship on the topic reaches a consensus or polarity that never changes.

The irony is that every Wikipedia article is a history article, referencing primary sources: real scholars, who really spoke to the topic of the article. It cannot be otherwise. If we aimed only to report secondary sources--what B says about what A said--then we couldn't actually report what B said about A, unless we had C, who told us what B said about what A said. Using the "secondary source" idea illogically can sound like responsible, neutral protection of content, but it's not what it seems if it is removing "branches" from the history of ideas our project is committed to documenting.

If Carl Linneaus had not documented the numerous branches of the tree of life (science), Darwin would have found it much more difficult to find an explanation for what had not as yet been observed! A Wiki contributor can never be more than a Linneaus, our reader must be the Darwin. Alastair Haines (talk) 06:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Alastair. Very well stated! Pico, if Wenham and Schaff aren't there at the moment, you must have deleted them. I know you've deleted Wenham at least six times that I've had to restore in the past -- since this recent scholar's commentary on Genesis (written in the time frame you claim) was still fodder for your hatchet. I think that you (Pico) are trying to make Wikipedia do something it isn't designed to do. This is a glorified bibliography, reporting on the history of views given by other sources. Darwin could be quoted as well as those who have understood him. The Primary is given with the lens of the secondary and perhaps tertiary. We don't settle disagreements, but rather list them, ref them, and give the reader a starting place for real research. For me at least, Wikipedia is a good resource to FIND resources. While I'd never do a paper off of Wikipedia, I'd certainly check Wikipedia to see what references are there. That's the primary value of this site. But deleting views and sources, while permissible in a piece of writing that aims to settle a matter, is unwarranted here unless those sources are so fringe that they are undue.EGMichaels (talk) 12:32, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Fair warning Pico -- I just cited two (gasp) historians...EGMichaels (talk) 12:54, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I also corrected a stated third party view about Wenham from Wenham's own words. If Gunkel was quoted correctly, then Gunkel was mistaken. I left the Gunkel reference intact, on the assumption that the editor was reading it correctly. But Wenham himself does not think what Gunkel appears to think he thinks (inconceivable!).EGMichaels (talk) 13:36, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

PiCo, you wrote "Lisa, the field of biblical studies of ancient Hebrew religion has undergone a revolution since the 1980s with the work of Smith, Day and others - no contemporary scholar would get his work published if he didn't take this into account. Therefore a cutoff around 1980 is entirely reasonable."

All this means is that there is a current style in that field of scholarship that you personally approve of. You want to delegitimize anything before that, because you want to exclude all sources that don't fit your personal worldview.

You can't do that. Yes, you can include sources that you like. No, you cannot exclude sources that you dislike. I'm perfectly willing to have an RfC on this issue if you choose. Just let me know. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 15:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Lisa, I honestly don't know what you're talking about. What I'm talking about when I draw a distinction between pre- and post- 1980 (or thereabouts) is the pretty universal acceptance by contemporary scholars of the view that the religion of ancient Israel/Jordan, c.1200-400BC, grew organically out of Canaanite religion and underwent numerous changes during that period. This contrasts completely with the previous paradigm, which saw Israelite religion pretty much in the terms presented in the Torah - a once-off revelation or revolution dating from around 1400 BC or thereabouts (think Kaufmann, although admittedly he's an extreme case, Albright, etc). The revolution came about as a result of increasing familiarity with the Ugaritic texts and the de-historicising of the OT by Van Seters and others, and the terms have been set by Day and Smith in particular. Anyway, I ask you to be clearer, as I just don't know what it is you mean by "worldview".PiCo (talk) 09:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear, Pico, I don't think anyone has a problem with the POV you want to include -- they just have a problem with your deliberate exclusion of other POVs. Indeed, it is even appropriate to show (as Alastair stated) a development of POVs through time culminating in the most current view. But eliminating the trunk can leave the branches floating in a false vacuum. Hardly any view on any subject comes without some kind of precedent -- even if that precedent is rejected. That's what this article is saying about Genesis (i.e. that it did not arise in a vacuum); how much more does it apply to the secondary sources!EGMichaels (talk) 16:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Good point Tim. For the last 100 years or so, nearly all scholars have come to agree that Genesis itself is a secondary source. I'm pretty sure PiCo agrees with that too. Alastair Haines (talk) 02:43, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

EGM: To make this manageable, can we just address one thing that causes me problems, namely the inclusion in the article of huge numbers of sources which are clearly not reliable, and which I think we can both agree are not reliable - I mean astronomers, mathematicians, journalists etc. Wenham is of course notable, and on Schaff you can put forward a respectable argument (I'd disagree, but it wouldn't annoy me to have to argue my case). Can you agree that the astronomers shouldn't be cluttering up the article? PiCo (talk) 09:50, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Pico, if you'll recall, you deleted Philo and Wenham repeatedly, on the grounds that this reliably sourced traditional view was not notable. Well, the point being made is that this is not only notable, but traditional (Philo), normative (Wenham), and pervasive (a score of other sources from different fields). Had you left Wenham alone to begin with, we'd be resting on it now. Your problem was ex nihilo, and you made up any argument you could to delete any reference to it by any means. I'm sorry, you created this need. And I'm not inclined to compromise with you here because the last time I compromised with Philo, you moved it (as per the compromise) and then the next day DELETED it on the grounds that it shouldn't be in the very place you moved it!

In any case, I'll be offline for a few days. Please remember that nothing is ever truly deleted here. I plan to check to see if the refs are intact when I come back from Pesach.EGMichaels (talk) 12:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

More myth concerns

Here are some comments I wrote 27 Mar 2010 at Talk:Creation myth. I want to include them here: ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that the common, ordinary use of the word "myth" is so dominant in societal thinking, all the way back to the days of our bedtime stories, that it's only reasonable for the reader to assume that he/she certainly already knows what that simple four-letter word means. Therefore, how reasonable is it even to suspect that any reader might reason that they don't know what "myth" means, with or without the "creation" prefix? Is this line of reasoning by Wiki's fictitious "ordinary reader" logical for any of us to even imagine:

IS THE FOLLOWING A LIKELY SCENARIO??

"Hm, 'myth'. That's something that is imaginary or not true. It's fictional like the Santa Claus myth or 'Peter and the Wolf' and the Loch Ness monster and urban legends. But just in case 'they' are thinking of some other kind of myth (though I don't think there IS any other kind), maybe I'd better look it up by clicking on the light-blue Wikilink." Hogwash!

From umpteen years teaching in university classrooms, and almost as many years as a student, I know that people are loathe to look something up if they think it's somehow beneath their dignity on the basis that "I already know that. When we read the word "myth," unless we are among "the few and the proud" who are specifically schooled in a technical/academic/literary genre, highly atypical usage of the word, our kneejerk response is to run with the MOST familiar definition we've had of that word throughout our lifetime. And that's going to be an untruth that has been whitewashed as truth.

May I illustrate from the Wall Street Journal's use of the word myth, and the connotation they clearly expect from readers:

• Jun 20, 2009 . "A Doctor's View of Obama's Healthcare Plans: The Myth of Prevention."

• Feb 20, 2010. "The Myth of the Techno-Utopia." The complete sentence: "It's fashionable to hold up the Internet as the road to democracy and liberty in countries like Iran, but it can also be a very effective tool for quashing freedom. Evgeny Morozov on the myth of the techno-utopia."

• Apr 24, 2009: "...the Treasury for getting only 66 cents in value for every TARP dollar spent. This accusation would be troubling if true, but the 66 cent claim is a myth. The 66 cent conclusion is no more sound than a subprime mortgage."

• November 20, 2009: Lies, Myths, and Yellow Journalism. "Because this editorial is based on deception (or, more charitably, bad journalism), it's not surprising that harmful myths about education reform are also woven in. The myth that spending more money on poor and minority kids is a waste ("some of the worst school districts in the country spend the most money on students"), the myth that vouchers help kids from low-income communities (they haven't worked, which is why they're off the table), the myth that strict accountability will close the achievement gap (it won't, although accountability with clear standards, and with more capacity to meet those standards will), and the myth that teachers' unions are the enemy (they have problems, but reformers need to work with, not against them).

An ordinary Google search of Wall St. Journal + "myth" turned up these and many more. Please try the search for yourself on any of your favorite printed sources that contain OpEd's. We can continue to play ostrich and bury our heads in the sand, or we can stop trying to force "myth" with all its shades of gray down people's throats.

None of us were around when the term "creation myth" was spawned by a group of the intelligencia who probably had at least a couple of years of Greek, so the choice of words isn't our fault. But we do have other terms that are not ambiguous, even terms that no less prestigious an agency than NASA has chosen, such as cosmogony. True, it's not well known, but since it isn't, that's the type of word that most of us WILL click on if it's blue. Thanks. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Dear Sir,

I, for one, can appreciate what seems like common sense, pleasantly expressed, well-reasoned and supported by a diversity of recent publications addressed to a general, intelligent and educated audience in your post above.

I'd like to grab the opportunity, not simply to second your opinion, however. I'd like to push you to engage more with the concerns of readers and editors who may think Genesis has some kind of historical cultural value, but is rather clearly not the sort of explanation of the origin of the world and humanity that is now pretty much accepted among educated people around the globe.

Out of politeness, a lot of people may be willing to agree to drop "myth" from the title of this article. Others, I suspect, will be willing to drop "myth" from the tile because it's hardly the ordinary scholastic way of referring to the Genesis anyway.

But, I'd like to hear your thoughts regarding the claim I made above, that Genesis is actually a secondary source. That is, it was hardly the first piece of ancient literature to address the "origin question." Do you think that is a fair statement? Was other literature, that might fairly be described as "myth" already known to the writer, writers or editor, editors of Genesis? At least by the time of it reaching the form in which it has been transmitted to us? Are you aware of any scholars who think that Genesis engages with this already "published" pre-existing mythology?

Now, here's the rub, does Genesis, as secondary source, endorse, quote and assume the veracity of the prior material? Does it critique it? Or is it some combination of assuming or accomodating parts of prior works, while critically presenting a new point of viw? What do the Genesis scholars you've read say? Are they all in agreement? Do they divide on "party lines"?

If, for example, Genesis thought populating the "heavens and the Earth" with a plethora of supernatural agents was a load of mythological bunkum, what might it say instead? What could it say to communicate that idea to people in the habit of thinking otherwise?

Aren't there ancient sources that describe monotheists as atheists? Isn't it possible modern atheists have more in common with ancient monotheists than they realise? A modern atheist views even monotheism as mythological God of the gaps nonsense, however ancient monotheists had very much the same view of the even more ancient polytheists and animists.

It's awfully frustrating watching people talking at cross-purposes when their reasoning is so very similar, just they are so dreadfully dogmatic about vocabulary.

To say Genesis 1 is technically myth is to say: 1. that it must be taken literally and 2. that there can be no God. I would not have thought either of those statements to be matters of self-evident truth without any dissenting points of view. Alastair Haines (talk) 06:15, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

[to Alastair Haines] My esteemed colleague, thank you for your gracious compliments, though far too generous. I am far less than your peer when it comes to the sophistry you express here. Please know that I am a theorist only in my chosen field of science, and express myself mostly in a practical meat-and-potatoes way. Therefore, I am both unworthy and unqualified to respond to your sage inquiry with any modicum of expertise or wisdom.

With that sincere disclaimer, I proceed: I completely agree that Genesis has historical/cultural value, and I personally do not hold to the literalist explanation you depict. However, I don't consider that the issue here. For the sake of discussion, let's assume there is a large group of intelligent, educated, respected people who believe the message of Genesis creation to be that "Almighty God" created the universe and all that is in it. They subscribe to divine inspiration but not to divine dictation. They are willing to consider the possibility that the intent of the biblical writings was not to provide some sort of scientific and historical schema of creation. Perhaps, they say, the meaning of creation for the writers of Genesis was something other than the present understanding of literal-historical. Let's further assume that they have a "high view" of Scripture that is reasonable and moderate (by some definition. Therefore, they aren't literalists; they just believe God created the heavens and the earth, that it's very incompletely understood just how he did it, though we are in process, albeit imperfectly, of learning the "how's" through science; that the J and P sources believed God is Creator and did their best to write a historical narrative through the prism of their inspired world view. The sources wrote no political or cultic treatise and mentioned no rituals—unlike the cosmologies of some of their predecessors and neighbors.

Today, some consider the Genesis accounts to be a demythologized myth (technical use of term), but that doesn't mean we must ignore the influences upon their narratives brought to bear on the writers by their cultural milieu and other creation stories. The writers were not monastics.

Let's even assume that more than a few of these hypothetical 21st century moderates do believe that the Creator set it all in motion, is still very much involved in the universe he created, and that ongoing natural and supernatural processes (not to exclude evolution) are indications of this. To these folks, as well as to the 3rd graders whose upbringing has led them to these same conclusions at a much less mature level, we throw the "myth" curve ball. Darwin write that the OT is a "manifestly false history of the earth." Rather than focus on the possibility that Genesis creation narratives were never intended to be historic account, religious objections to Darwin's assessment have focused on the word false, and many evolutionists have agreed with the Darwinian "false history" claim. This is why I personally believe the word "myth", even with a thousand notes to say it doesn't mean untrue, is manifestly offensive to such a huge number of readers and editors.

Thanks again for your supportive comments and your provocative (but at times over my head) thoughts. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:15, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

From my research, historically there was no controversy. Apparently, both the patristic and medieval church interpreted the Genesis accounts allegorically or figuratively. I read that the Protestant reformers rejected the allegorical method in favor of a more literal-historical method of interpretation. Even then, an exegetical emphasis on what appeared to be the plain meaning of the text did not place the Bible in serious conflict with the new science of the day, in that there was some latitude in the application of a literal approach.

Restart-article naming dispute

I propose we squash on sight two categories of argument:

1. The dictionary/intelligencia/man-on-the-street says "myth" means such-and-such; and
2. The "we're special" crowd who're asking for preferential treatment need to be brought up short because "fair is fair".

This dispute is over the article's name, which by WP guidelines is to be the most commonly used name. Can we please focus on that? None of us here were given the responsibility or power of coming up with the name In Real Life. So our opinions of what the name in real life should be Do Not Matter. Are WP editors "pushing" a given terminology beyond what can be supported as common usage? That should be the focus. As well as paying heed to what phrases readers will attempt in their lookups. I'm weary watching this same dispute flare again and again, while most of the arguments are completely beside the point. Professor marginalia (talk) 06:25, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

In real life, the first two chapters of the book of Genesis are a creation myth. That is why this article is called just that. "Genesis creation myth" describes accurately and comprehensively the subject matter here : what 1. Genesis contains and 2. what the focus of this article is. The title is in accordance with numerous WP guidelines, as discussed at length many many times around here. The approach of the many Christian and Jewish editors who only say "I don't like that" and "my relifigion is true and special" is not encyclopedic. · CUSH · 07:02, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

There's something about what Prof. Marginalia says that seems to get to the heart of what matters for a good clear discussion.

But all that's missing in the discussion above, imo, is quotes from reliable sources on the subject.

May I ask what you think the topic or subject of this article is? It might not have a common name.

As far as I can tell, this article is supposed to document scholastic analysis of "what Genesis says about Creation".

"In Genesis, creation ..."

I would have thought there'd be endless permutations of good titles, the problem would be picking one, not sticking with one.

As long as it has the common names "Genesis" and "creation" people will find it won't they?

Perhaps I don't understand what the article is supposed to be about. What do you think is the topic here? Alastair Haines (talk) 07:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

At Cush, it would help if you could cite reliable sources for your opinion that "Genesis 1-2" is a creation myth.

Most sources I know, of all colours, see Genesis 1 and Genesis 2-3 as distinct units. Just which scholars are you reading?

"Myth" is a comprehensive description of just what? The Sabbath? Marriage? You don't even get talking snakes until chapter 3.

While you may have a point that unwritten policy says Wikipedia is supposed to be written from the atheist, rather than agnostic point of view, even atheist scholars see that Genesis 3 is part of the Genesis myth of human origins.

Your case needs reliable sources, not editorial assertion. Alastair Haines (talk) 07:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

(ec):::Reframe your argument so that it doesn't rely on Fallacy #2 and focus on the chestbeating "we called it that because that's what it's called" stuff. As I said, the "fair is fair" fallacy is irrelevant. The other issue raised is the key: and every time I've researched this claim, the "we called it that because that's what it's called" stuff, it doesn't completely hold up. There's more than one agenda behind the POV-pushing on this here at wp. So what have you got to to show this is what it's typically called? Please...lay it out here. Professor marginalia (talk) 07:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

@Alastair Haines-I've noted above what I've found to be the most commonly used phraseology. Professor marginalia (talk) 07:34, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes! I'd read it already, but now I have you associated with your thoughts (proceeding as they do from some real checking in sources). I still prefer Creation in Genesis, which is a topic title, not a phrase or name, and does not imply any propositions. I don't think Creation according to Genesis formally implies that the Genesis account is true, but I can see why some people are sensitive to the plausible possibility of that proposition being formed by some readers encountering that title. Genesis creation story, does imply a proposition, but I would think a demonstrably true and unambiguous, non-technical one.

But finally, I don't think this current debate can be settled by phrase searches in sources, because I doubt there's a consensus in scholastic terminology or common usage. I don't think it will be settled by all editors who care coming to agreement, either. I think it will need to be settled by supplying a rationale based on reliable sources and policy, that will stand up because its sources and reasoning withstand scrutiny.

I am extremely interested to see how the proposal is closed, because there's enough in the discussion to do it already, yet a lot of temptation to close it irrationally. It's a good test of the capacity of those who staff the system to actually uphold it without fear or favour.

We will see what we will see, but I certainly value the thoughts you've posted Prof. M. Alastair Haines (talk) 08:05, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Written by Jews?

Since Jews have always believed that the Genesis account was authored by God, I'm changing that in the lede. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like an incredibly silly reason. However, I wonder if we can be sure it was written by Jews. A priori it is not clear (although I may be exposing my ignorance by saying so) that substantial parts weren't written by someone non-Jewish first, and later adopted by Jews. Hans Adler 16:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

What rather wonderful contributions by both of you.

Lisa is providing perhaps the oldest documented PoV, that survives in many reliable sources right up to the present day.

Hans is asking precisely the question that has occupied scholars for most of the 20th century, though it is generally phrased as a question of how much editing rather than straight borrowing was done by whom, when and with what purpose.

Bravo! Alastair Haines (talk) 17:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

One cannot just replace a reference to actual authorship with insubstantial claims to alleged authorship. Replacing fact with faith is dishonest, unencyclopedic, impermissible. · CUSH · 19:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Plenty of sources.

• Aish.com
• Chabad.org
• Ohr.edu
• Zechariah Fendel, Legacy of Sinai: A History of Torah Transmission, Rabbi Jacob Joseph School Press, 1981

It isn't faith, Cush. It's fact, based on scholarship and knowledge which has gone on for millenia. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 20:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Serious concerns re: some of the sources cited

Reviewing the excessive footnoting for ex nihilo, we have cites to :

Forty Minutes with Einstein-I check the page given and no mention of a) Genesis b) Biblical creation or c) ex nihilo. Nice.

Wrinkles in Time- quote: "Until the late 1910s humans were as ignorant of cosmic origins as they have ever been. Those who didn't take Genesis literally had no reason to believe there had been a beginning." you gotta be kidding.

Quantum Reality: Beyond the New Physics - I couldn't check the Doubleday version, but page 177 of the hardback has this: "I want to know how God created this world" by Albert Einstein. No "ex nihilo", no "Genesis"--and it's a book about quantum physics!

Creation: the Story of the Origin and Evolution of the Universe -quote: "If the universe was truly created, though, there had to be nothing here before the creation. And again this is something that is difficult for most people to visualize, difficult because we usually associate "nothing" with empty space." Terrible.

Creation Ex Nihilo by Fain - :"According to Judaism, 'something from nothing', or the openness of the world, is openness to God. World one, the physical world, was open from the beginning and was created from nothing." both an oblique and obscure reference, certainly not cited much (if ever), but at least it comes closer to verifying the statement than the other refs cited. sorta.

Show Me God: What the Message from Space Is Telling Us About God - It has a picture of Albert Einstein pointing at the title. I'm not even bothering to check inside this one. This is a joke.

Then there's Clontz's Comprehensive New Testament. I'd like someone to quote this, because the description reads, The Comprehensive New Testament only requires a sixth grade reading level and is the most accurate translation of the Nestle-Aland 27th edition Greek New Testament ever produced." Hmmm. New Testament?

Another good one, God and the Astronomers-that one actually disagrees with the statement it's attached to. The book claims Genesis creation describes creation out of "formless matter", not creation ex nihilo.

Before the Beginning-if it's not self-published, it's very close to it - these titles give some indication we're not talking top drawer academic research publisher here [3]

This leaves - St. Augustine and Philo, which are essentially primary source for all intents and purposes here. This is an embarrassment-I'm zapping all but Augustine and Philo, and we need to do better than this. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:46, 29 March 2010 (UTC)