Talk:Australia

First sighting of Australia by Queiros

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According to some sources, the first European to see the Australian continent was Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós (Quiros in Spanish) who sailed the South Pacific in 1605. The members of his expedition saw the northern tip of Australia, though they did not make landfall. Quirós landed on a large island which he took to be part of the southern continent, and named it La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo (The Austrian Land of the Holy Spirit), for King Philip III, who belonged to the House of Habsburg or House of Austria. The island was in fact in the New Hebrides archipelago, today the country of Vanuatu. The island is still called Espiritu Santo. This information is not in the article. I have therefore included the following sentences: Etymology section: In 1606 Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós sailing on a Spanish expedition arrived in Espiritu Santo and named the island "La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo". History section: European explorers first sighted Australia in the early 17th century. Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandez de Queirós, who led a Spanish expedition to the South Pacific in 1605, was probably the first European to see the Australian continent . The Torres Strait is named after Luis Váez de Torres, a member of the Queiros expedition. However, the first recorded European sighting of the mainland and the first landfall were attributed to the Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon... The discovery of Australia is contested between Dutch explorer Willem Janszoon and Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandez de Queiros. There are references for both interpretations, all of them reliable. This is why I suggest using the term "probably" when mentioning Queiros' first sighting of the Australian mainland. JCRB (talk) 13:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC) Sorry, JCRB, but I don't this is appropriate. I just took a look at some parts of Richardson on Google Books. Richardson's thesis appears to be that these claims re de Queirós are likely to be untrue - the source should not be misconstrued in the WP article. Moran's pamphlet is useless as a source and should not be quoted at all. The lack of scholarly credence for this theory is reflected in the Australian Government's culture portal making no mention of it. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC) Point 1 (Etymology Section). I am waiting to hear comments about this fact. Point 2 (History Section) Richardson says that the masses supposedly said on Australian soil were in fact said on Espiritu Santo. Therefore Moran's claims that Queiros made landfall are probably untrue, I agree. However, my point is not about landfall, but about the first sighting of the Australian continent. Richardson clearly says: "Torres certainly sailed through the strait that bears his name in 1606 and may possibly have seen the tip of Cape York in the distance..." (page 20, "Was Australia Chartered before 1606?" by W.A.R. Richardson) This means there is a reasonable possibility that Torres, part of the Queiros expedition, sighted Australia before the Dutch. Also, let me add that a government's failure to mention a historical event on their website is no proof whatsoever that such an event did not take place. I can show you many official websites which ignore or forget significant events in their history. JCRB (talk) 11:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC) "May possibly have" does not mean there is a reasonable possibility that somebody who landed 2,700km away thinking that he was still in Australia actually saw the country. At best it's giving him the benefiot of the doubt. --AussieLegend (talk) 11:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC) Indeed. It's tempting to believe that there were European discoverers before Janszoon, but we do not know for certain that there were any other before him. You cannot accord a "reasonable possibility" with the status of "historical event". And that is certainly why the Australian Government does not recognise any claim prior to Janszoon's - there is no proof, just some vague possibilities. In relation to Queiros, you've gone from "probably" down to "may possibly" and "a reasonable possibility". On that basis, we may as well include an equally "reasonable possibility", the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia, which holds that the continent was discovered in 1521, a full 85 years before Janszoon. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC) Agree with Jack. Going back to your Etymological point: we should only include this if there is any demonstrated link between de Queirós's naming of what is now Vanuatu and the name later given to the southern continent, Australia. While the two look very similar, that does not mean there are etymological or historical links. The continent's name derives from word/s meaning "southern", whereas "Austrialia" appears derived from "Austria". As far as I can see, we are dealing with a superficial similarity that has no basis in etymology. But I'm happy to be corrected. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:44, 7 September 2010 (UTC) Thanks for your comments. Again, I am not arguing that Torres or Queiros sighted Australia for certain before the Dutch, rather, that this possibility exists, and that it should be mentioned. Regarding the Portuguese discovery of Australia in 1522, yes I have read about that. They called it Jave La Grande ("Jave the Great") and there are 16th century maps of a coast very similar to the Australian coast with Portuguese names on it. Maybe this should also be mentioned with a link to the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia. Regarding the Etymology of Australia, I think the issue needs no further explanation: In "A note of Australia del Espíritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt and published by Samuel Purchas in Hakluytus Posthumus" English writer Richard Hakluyt talks about Espiritu Santo island, discovered by Queiros in 1606 which he called "Austrialia del Espiritu Santo". Queiros belived he was in Australia. What part of that historical and etymological link don't you see? JCRB (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC) No, no, no. It's not that there was known to be a large land mass with the name of Australia, and all any explorer had to do was actually find it. That's not it at all. There was believed to be a large southern land mass. It did not have a name, because its very existence was only in the realm of fantasy and postulation. Queros sighted the place we now call Vanuatu. He called it Austrialia del Spiritu Santo - a reference to Austria, nowhere else. The etymology of the word "Austria" is from a German word that means "east" (of Germany); it's Österreich in German (Öster-reich = Eastern Realm), which was rendered in Latin as Austria. It has nothing to do with the Latin australis, meaning "south", which was the basis of the name of Australia. The fact that Queiros believed (mistakenly) he'd found the Great Southern Land, and the name he gave to that place, have nothing to do with the name later given to the actual Great Southern Land. There is a superficial similarity, that's all. The confusion of Austria with Australia is something we take modern-day Americans to task for all the time. Please let's not have it making an appearance here. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC) Oh I get it. You're saying it's pure coincidence that "Austr-i-alia del Espiritu Santo" (name given by Queiros) and "Australia del Espiritu Santo" (first recorded use of the word Australia in English) are almost identical? Oh, I see. That's a really convincing argument. JCRB (talk) 19:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC) Quite a bit of confusion happening here. In February 1606, Janszoon landed on Cape York near Weipa, the first definitely known landfall by a European on Australian soil. He thought this was a continuation of New Guinea. He did not realise he had stumbled upon the Great Southern Land. In May 1606, Queiros discovered a group of islands to the south-east of New Guinea. He named them Austrialia del Espiritu Santo, in honour of his patron, who was of the royal house of Austria. Although he believed and claimed he’d discovered the Great Southern Land or Terra Australis (he hadn’t – he’d discovered Vanuatu), at no time did he ever give it a name that actually means that or anything like that. It is a pure coincidence that the Latin word for southern (australis) and the German word for eastern (öster, and its derivatives in Latin: Austria, Austrialia; which have given us the English name of that country, Austria) are so similar and easily confused. Blame Queiros for not picking his name more judiciously. It has no doubt contributed to the absolute furphy that Queiros landed near Gladstone, Qld, and was the "true" discoverer of Australia. There is no evidence that Queiros ever came within a bull’s roar of Australia. Even if Queiros did actually land on Australian soil, of which hypothesis there is no evidence, Janszoon beat him by 3 months anyway. When Hakluyt wrote in 1625 about "Australia del Espíritu Santo", he was certainly referring to the discovery made by Queiros (i.e. Vanuatu). He did not exactly copy Queiros’s spelling, but they were less strict in those days about such things. Despite what some old history textbooks might have said, the terms "Austrialia del Espíritu Santo" or "Australia del Espíritu Santo" have never been directly applied to the landmass now known as Australia. They have always referred to what was believed to be the Great Southern Land (which we now know as Australia), but what is actually Vanuatu. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:40, 10 September 2010 (UTC) No, no confusion at all. If the "first recorded use of the word Australia in English" was in "A note of Australia del Espíritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt and published by Samuel Purchas in Hakluytus Posthumus", then the article should say where this name came from. Regardless of where they were (Queiros was indeed in Vanuatu) the point is the name "Australia del Espiritu Santo" came from Queiros' expedition, which landed in Espiritu Santo and called the island that way (thinking he was in mainland Australia). A short sentence mentioning this should be enough. That's all. JCRB (talk) 03:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC) It's probably not coincidence, but due to the same etymological background of the word. Europeans had thought there was a great "terra australis" for ages. It was on medieval maps and the like, although just as a large blob. When they found land in the south, they named it after this. I believe the first use of Australia in English is often claimed to be by Matthew Flinders, though I'm sure someone knows more than me. If someone finds some random island and calls it the southern land, that doesn't really relate to Australia at all. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 05:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC) True, Europeans thought there was a Terra australis incognita since long ago, and the first European to claim the discovery (though mistakenly) and to give it a name (La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo), was Queiros in 1606. This name was later used by Richard Hakluyt in 1625. JCRB (talk) 12:55, 11 September 2010 (UTC) JCRB, you say "Queiros' expedition, which landed in Espiritu Santo and called the island that way (thinking he was in mainland Australia)" as though he named it after Terra Australis when in actual fact, as JackofOz has repeatedly noted, he named the island in honour of his royal patrons, the Habsburgs of Austria. You cannot claim that the word Australia derives from this Austrialia, or that the corruption of Austrialia in an obscure 17th century document in anyway contributed to the later use of Australia. I'll agree, though, that if we are to mention this earliest recorded instance of Australia in a published text, then we need also to say "where this name came from" — and that is as a corruption Austrialia. In an etymology section of an overview article, we do not and should not be delving into (unsubstantiated) theories of alternate discovery. — cj | talk 05:40, 17 September 2010 (UTC) I have once more removed the contested information because as far as I can see, there is not any consensus for its addition. It is a reference to a totally different place thousands of miles away.--Dmol (talk) 12:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC) I would encourage editors who oppose including the sentence on Queiros and Australia del Espiritu Santo to explain their arguments here, instead of threatening to block editors for "potential" edit-warring. I would like to see what type of arguments are used in the face of verifiable information. JCRB (talk) 20:09, 16 September 2010 (UTC) The reasons have been explained ad nauseum and in great detail above. There is no consensus to add this information. It appears that you are the only editor seeking to add it.--Dmol (talk) 20:56, 16 September 2010 (UTC) I need to be convinced that the use of a word meaning east (AustrIalia) has anything to do with a word meaning south (Australis). HiLo48 (talk) 21:08, 16 September 2010 (UTC) Dmol, the reasons have not been explained ad nauseam. The expression "ad nauseam" applies to very long, unproductive and tiresome discussions. We have only started discussing the Etymology issue recently. I wish you provided reasonable arguments beyond "there is no consensus". CJ, I partly agree with you, and I appreciate your reasoning. If the article mentions the earlist recorded use of the word in English, it should also say "where this name came from". I also think that it should say who gave it this name: navigator Pedro Fernandes Queiros who landed in the main island of Vanuatu, thinking he was on mainland Terra Australis. By the way, the Spanish article on Australia says that "Austr-i-alia" has a double etymological root: "Austria" (for the Habsburgs of Austria, the Spanish dynasty of the time) and "Austral" meaning southern (Queiros was searching for Terra Australis or "Southern Land"). The combined "Austrialia" was later corrupted or translated incorrectly to English as "Australia" [1] JCRB (talk) 14:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC) No, we do not need to talk about Queirós, because what we are talking about from an etymological point of view is the earliest recorded use of the word Australia. This earliest recorded use was not by Queirós, but by a writer describing the island and corrupting its name. To delve deeper into the matter is to dapple in a history of Vanuatu and Spanish exploration. That is not our interest here. As to your "double etymology" idea, I'm unconvinced, and the burden is with you to prove it. — cj | talk 00:56, 22 September 2010 (UTC) Again, I have to agree only partially. Yes, the double etymology hypothesis needs to be proven. However, I disagree that mentioning Queiros as the navigator who gave Australia an early version of its name, later corrupted by Master Hakluyt, is "to dapple in a history of Vanuatu and Spanish exploration". Queiros was not in a random island he decided to call "Austrialia". He was on an island he believed was Australia. The link between the name and the land he thought he had reached, cannot be ignored. JCRB (talk) 10:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC) All the Queiros thought he found was some mythical southern land, which had nothing to do with modern australia except that both navigators thought they found a southern land mass. The move from "Australis" to "Australia" was probably not a big step. This source [2] by the australian government says that Flinders thought of it himself. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC) There seems to be an element of not hearing the arguments, though JCRB has certainly continued to engage on the talk page and (mostly) not in the article mainspace. I am still seeing no link between the two superficially similar names, and therefore no need for discussion in a section on the etymology of "Australia". Look at it from a different angle: if a lay reader who knew nothing of the subject read about Queros's name for Vanuatu, would they be given a better understanding of the historical origin of the country's name? No. Because it isn't where the name came from. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC) I really think this argument is exhausted. You say "the link between the name and the land he thought he had reached, cannot be ignored." But the point is, there is no link - not without proof that he named the island in the fashion of Terra Australis. The available evidence shows that he in fact named them for the Hapsburgs of Austria. Etymologically, the only relevance this has for this article is that the superficial similarity Austrialia and Australia caused one writer to mistakenly use the later in reference to the former, and that this mistake was the first recorded instance of Australia. — cj | talk 06:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC) Yup, well and truly dead and flogged --Merbabu (talk) 09:53, 23 September 2010 (UTC) I agree with that. The current sentence should be sufficient. Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC) See new section belowNickm57 (talk) 23:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from MelbGuy1, 29 September 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} as of august 2010 australia's unemployment rate is 5.1 percent, reference link: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0

MelbGuy1 (talk) 22:09, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

 Done Thanks, Stickee (talk) 00:05, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

re: biggest worldwide selling albums missing

If Opera and Symphony's get a paragraph, contemporary music deserves a mention.

referring to wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_worldwide

ACDC's back in black is the second biggest selling album of all time, the Bee Gee's ranked 9th with Saturday Night Fever. There are other notable internationally acclaimed musicians (eg. kylie minogue, olivia newton john, inxs, jet). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.190.211.91 (talk) 18:26, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

The theory of Portuguese discovery and Torres...

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For the sake of clarity I've created a new section and included some of the discussion from above, that had moved into this topic. Hope you dont mind, JCRBNickm57 (talk) 23:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC) Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC) Surely you mean to suggest "first sighting by Torres"? Quiros was on his way back to Mexico when Torres was navigating the strait that now bears his name. Quiros could not be said to still be in command of an expedition that he had abandoned! My view is Torres' success was remarkable, and I think Brett Hilder has established a high likelyhood that Torres did see the tip of what is now Cape York. However, its clear from existing records that (if they did see Cape York) the Spanish did not recognise the land they saw for what it was. Thus, the sighting, if it occurred, contributed nothing to European knowledge of the world. This is also Mike Pearson's thinking about the contentious Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia- if it happened, it contributed nothing to "expand European knowledge of Australia, the portrayal of Jave La Grande having no greater status that any other conjectural portrayal of Terra Australis." For that reason, I feel its not appropriate to mention either in the short summary on this page. Both Torres, Quiros and "the Theory..." all have detailed pages of their own! Nickm57 (talk) 22:10, 11 October 2010 (UTC) Nickm57, yes, I meant the "first sighting by Torres" who was part of Queiros' original expedition. Indeed, there are different sources which prove this first sighting. You mentioned Brett Hilder and his "high likelyhood" that this ocurred. There are other sources. In The First Discovery of Australia and New Guinea (1906) [3] the author, George Collingridge says: "Sailing along the shores of the islands to the north of Australia, between Cape York and Prince of Wales Island, Torres regained the coast of New Guinea [...] He had discovered Australia without being aware of the fact, and had completed the Spanish circumnavigation of New Guinea." See this map for the full route of Torres [4]. In a timeline at the end of the book, Collingridge also writes: "1606. Torres sails towards Australia from the New Hebrides, passes through the straits that bear his name, and discovers Australia, without, apparently, being aware of the fact." So according to this historian Torres was the first European to sight Australia (and to sail its waters) although he did not make landfall. Regarding the prior discovery of Australia by the Portuguese, there are also a number of sources which prove this, largely based on the Dieppe maps, specially this one [5] and this one [6] which show the Australian landmass south of Java and Sumatra, but farther to the east. In the same work Collingridge explains that these maps were purposely distorted by the Portuguese so that Australia appeared in the hemisphere assigned to Portugal by Pope Alexander (in the Treaty of Tordesillas). Collingridge provides an interesting illustration comparing the real and the fictitious location of Australia here [7]. He also explains: "the Portuguese, who were the first to make discoveries in these seas, must have been perfectly aware that the coasts they had charted lay more to the east, and if they dragged them out of position and placed them under Java as shown in these maps, it was in order to secure to themselves the lion's share, for their line of demarcation, as fixed by Pope Alexander". So according to the above information, both Torres (in 1606) and the Portuguese (in the 16th century) arrived in Australia before the Dutch. Whether they made this knowledge available to other Europeans or not, is not really the point. Many discoveries were kept secret during the 16th and 17th centuries so that competing nations did not threaten trade or power in the newly discovered regions. Regarding the fictitious position of Australia in the above-mentioned map, this is what Spanish pilot Juan Gaetan said about the Portuguese charts: "I saw and knew all their charts. They were all cunningly falsified, with longitudes and latitudes distorted, and land-features drawn in at places and stretched out at others to suit their purposes, etc., etc., and when they found out that I understood their little pranks they made strenuous efforts to get me to enlist in their service, and made me advantageous offers, which, however, I scorned to accept"' [8] So clearly it was customary to protect valuable information like maps and trade routes by keeping them secret and even falsifying documents. With this in mind, it seems highly probably that the Portuguese arrived Australia in the 16th century. Therefore, the article should mention both of these prior discoveries. JCRB (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC) Scope of the history section in this article. A WP article on Australia, in its short history summary section, should not need to include reference to unsubstantiated or speculative matters, and this includes suggestions of voyages by the Portuguese. The full History of Australia and European exploration of Australia articles, linked from this page, do make passing mention of this theory. The same applies to speculation about what Torres may have seen, even though his voyage was documented. My benchmark for whether it’s appropriate to mention this theory in this article is still based on Mike Pearson’s comment. Whether such sightings occurred or not, they went unrecorded and were not exploited or celebrated. They contributed nothing to European knowledge of Australia, and therefore are at best, curiosities of our own history. Many reading this discussion will have contributed to articles on European exploration of Australia and read Collingridge’s works of the late 19th century. May I recommend to interested Wikipedians some of the more recent writers like Bill Richardson, Gayle K. Brunelle and Robert King. I think this is where informed contemporary thinking is, on the Dieppe maps and any possible connection to Australia. Nickm57 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC) By the way JCRB – you suggest "many other' discoveries of the 16th and 17th century were kept secret. I would have more sympathy for your argument to include this topic if I could think of any comparable secret discoveries! On the contrary, I suggest most "new world" geographical discoveries were blabbed about in 16th and 17th century Europe very quickly! Nickm57 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC) Generally unknown discoveries: European maritime expeditions from the Age of Exploration up to the 18th century were usually kept secret to prevent rival powers from gaining access to profitable trade, or from establishing bases that would threaten their colonies. This meant either locking away the documents that recorded the discovery, or distorting the charts as I explained above. Discussing 18th century Spanish travel literature, Professor Garcia Sanchez from Eastern Washington University writes: "Although the production of [Spanish] narrative was very abundant, due to the secretiveness the Borbonic government kept on those explorations, they didn’t have a lot of popular acknowledgement like similar narratives in the rest of Europe". There are territories which the Portuguese or the Spanish discovered in the 16th century, but due to the policy of discretion this has not been acknowledged sufficiently. In territories where a different European power eventually took over, this is specially the case. For example, according to this theory Hawaii was probably discovered by the Spanish in 1555. See also this article[9]. The discovery of the Spice Islands or Moluccas was also kept secret by the Portuguese for a few decades until the unification of Spain and Portugal under the Iberian Union. The route of the Manila Galleons itself was kept rigorously secret for almost its full duration (1565-1815) allowing the Viceroyalty of New Spain and the Casa de Contratacion to operate a transpacific monopoly between the Philippines and the Americas undisturbed for at least one century. So not all discoveries were disclosed. In fact, documents of exploration such as logbooks and maps were sometimes locked away for a very long time. According to this book (quoting the WP article) "the Hawaiian islands were not known to have any valuable resources, so the Spanish would have not made an effort to settle them". The same thing happened to the Mariana Islands (specially Guam) discovered by Magellan in 1521, and visited by various explorers afterwards (among them Legazpi and Urdaneta in 1565) but not settled until 1668. Scope of the history section: As for the scope of the history section, I think we need to be more open-minded towards information that we are not used to. Just because the Portuguese discovery of Australia is not mainstream in English-language literature, does not mean it is inaccurate. Just because the Torres discovery is not "generally accepted" nowadays does not mean it should be ruled out. Let the reader decide that for himself. A short mention of these two possible discoveries and a link does not in any way harm the article. What's more, it contributes to it. JCRB (talk) 18:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC) Well, I've said my bit for now, I'm sure the many other contributors to this page have an opinion too.Nickm57 (talk) 23:37, 13 October 2010 (UTC) Yes and I agree. JCRB, there is simply no scope for discussion of these obscure matters in this summary article, as to do so would run up against Wikipedia's policies about due and undue weight. — cj | talk 06:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC) I disagree. I think I've produced sufficient sources to justify at least a small reference to the prior discoveries. These are not "obscure matters" but verifiable information which is relevant to the article. JCRB (talk) 16:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC) It's quite irrelevant, because whether it happened of not, it had no bearing on the creation of the Australia we know today, and has had no effect on Australia's development. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:31, 16 October 2010 (UTC) Still, it's part of Australia's history. JCRB (talk) 17:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC) That may be so, but it is in no way of such importance that it deserves a spot in the summary of Australia's history, a short summary at that. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC) I've been watching these discussions with interest and while I didn't really want to get involved I'm forced to because that dead horse is really starting to stink. I have to agree with the arguments presented by others, there's really no place for mention of this in this article. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC) Totally agree with above. There has not been any consensus to add the info, despite pages of discussion. Dead horse.--Dmol (talk) 07:34, 17 October 2010 (UTC) I wouldn't say a constructive discussion "stinks". All of this is useful information about Australia's early history. As for the "dead horse"(?) the long discussion was about Etymology. That's over. This discussion is about prior discoveries. Please don't try to kill the discussion just because you don't agree. JCRB (talk) 21:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC) I'm afraid you've missed what we're getting at, which is that the discussion was pretty much ended so long ago that, like most dead things that remain unburied, it's going nowhere and needs to be buried as soon as possible. The discussion has been going on for seven weeks now, we've just changed tack slightly, and you're the only one who doesn't seem to get that there's no place for any of this information in this article. The discussion is no longer constructive, and hasn't been for some time. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:46, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Additional Sources To move forward, I will produce a number of additional sources to support that both the Portuguese and the Torres discoveries deserve a mention. First, let me say that when reading the contradicting versions of the discovery of Australia, it was surprising to see that most sources agreed that Willem Janszoon had arrived before Torres. The Dutch explorer was there in March 1606, whereas Torres arrived in August or September 1606. If Torres had sighted Australia after the Dutch, why do historians like Earp (1852) or Collingridge (1895) claim that Torres discovered it? Or why do many others like Clark (1962), Rients (1969) and Ziegler (1970) dwell on this possibility? Why the debate if Janszoon clearly preceded Torres? I looked into this and found out that Janszoon actually ignored he was in Australia. Janszoon thought he was in a southern extension of New Guinea [10]. That's why authors such as Collingridge claim that Torres discovered the continent, not Janszoon. The Dutch navigator thought he was sailing along the south of New Guinea, not in a new island. This fact would disqualify him as the "first discoverer". This is an extract from the Project Gutemberg Australia article cited above: "Willem Janszoon, was actually in Torres Strait in March 1606, a few weeks before Torres sailed through it. But provisions ran short, and nine of the crew were murdered by natives [...] so that the Duyfken did not penetrate beyond Cape Keer-weer on the west side of the Cape York Peninsula. Her captain returned in the belief that the south coast of New Guinea was joined to the land along which he coasted, and Dutch maps reproduced this error for many years to come. So Janszoon thought he was sailing along the south coast of New Guinea. Now, Torres also saw Australia, but was "unaware of the fact" (according to most historians) because there are no records of his discovery. However, unlike Janszoon, Torres did know the land he saw was a separate island. He could have known this because he sailed the strait (Torres Strait) that separates New Guinea from Australia. Clark (1962) says "what he noticed was an archipelago of islands without number." [11] So, if Torres saw a new landmass separate from New Guinea which (supposedly) no other explorers had seen before, why didn't he claim this discovery? Why are there no charts of Northern Australia from Torres' expedition? Well, according to Trickett in his book "Beyond Capricorn" (2007) which follows the thesis of Kenneth McIntyre (1977) and Fitzgerald (1984), Torres already had information about that strait. That's why he did not claim its discovery. Trickett argues that being Portuguese, Torres knew about the early discoveries of Cristóvão de Mendonça, the navigator who "discovered" Australia in 1521 according to the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia. Haiblen (2007) writes the following about Trickett's thesis in Clio Journal of History (Dickinson College): "...as Torres was Portuguese (though he sailed for the Spanish), he may have had inside knowledge of Mendonca’s alleged voyages. Trickett proposes that Torres already knew of the strait before reaching it, as Torres never laid claim to its discovery. This opinion is supported by the world map of Cornelius Wytfliet (1597) which shows a gap between New Guinea and the Great South Land nine years prior to Torres’ being there." [12] This evidence links the Mendonça voyage in the Theory of Portuguese discovery with the thesis that Torres discovered Australia, or that in fact, he re-discovered it. Earp wrote in his book "Gold Colonies of Australia": "Torres [...] discovered the insularity of the northern portion of the country [Australia] by passing though the Strait which now bears his name, and so round Cape York into the Arafura Sea. It would almost appear from his having thus pronounced the country to be an island [...] that Torres had obtained reliable information from some one who had preceded him." [13] So Torres most likey already knew the strait, as well as Australia itself, that's why he did not claim to have discovered either of them. As for the absence of records of his voyage (almost a century after Mendonça's expedition) again the reason is the secrecy with which Portuguese and Spanish explorations were conducted. This has been explained before in this talk page. In fact, the British only came to know about Torres' expedition 150 years later, when Manila (part of the Spanish East Indies) was briefly occupied by British troops in 1762. (Curiously, this was only 8 years before James Cook arrived in Australia). Earp explains: "The discovery by Torres has only become known at a comparatively recent date, and the way in which it became known is curious. On the capture of Manila in 1762 by British troops, [a British official] found amongst the Government state papers,a copy of the letter from Torres to the King of Spain, who, with the usual jealousy of European monarchs at this period, had kept the secret of his discoveries from becoming generally known. The discovery of this letter however, places the fact beyond doubt." To conclude, Portuguese navigator Luis Vaz de Torres crossed the strait that bears his name, and sighted Australia (northern tip of Cape York) which he recognized as a separate island in 1606. Although Dutch explorer Janszoon preceded Torres in sighting (and landing) in Australia, he did not recognise it, believing it was an extension of New Guinea. This fact weakens the thesis that Janszoon "discovered Australia". Also, the above sources suggest that Torres had prior knowledge of both Australia and the Torres Strait. Not only did he "pronounce the country an island" with little evidence, but he did not claim such an important discovery. The possibility of Torres having "inside knowledge" of Mendonça's voyages of 1521 "because he was Portuguese" (as Haiblen suggests) is reinforced by the fact that this was the period of the Iberian Union, when the crowns of Portugal and Spain were united under Philip II and later Philip III of Spain. During this time, all matters relating to the Indies came under the control of the Spanish Council of the Indies, suggesting that all Spanish expeditions from the late 16th century already knew about Mendonça's voyage. In my opinion, all of the above exceedingly justifies a small mention of both Torres and the Portuguese discovery of 1521, which are in fact historically related. JCRB (talk) 00:56, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Hi JCRB. The point of this page is to discuss improvements to the article, not simply to try to convince others of your POV (strongly held, I can see, by your recent edits to Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia and European Exploration of Australia). I know there is a fine line sometimes, but I think its clear you do not have consensus for adding these matters on WP, partly because they appear to be your own cobbling together of several different writers views, together with several convenient historical shortcuts, and partly because it's not appropriate in the context of the article. Hope I don't sound rude, that's not my intention, but I think its time to be direct. Nickm57 (talk) 05:11, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Hi Nickm57, thanks for your comments. I don't think you're being fair though. There is a lot of information out there about the prior discoveries of Australia, and I'm only trying to include a reference to this (here and in the articles you have mentioned). I have looked through many sources to get a full picture of the "discovery" issue, not to push a particular point of view. As it stands, the article ignores an important thesis supported by a whole bunch of historians, including Kenneth McIntyre (1977), Fitzgerald (1984) and Peter Trickett (2007) - take a look at Beyond Capricorn. I'm only saying a reference to this would improve the article. JCRB (talk) 10:55, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Hi JCRB -you seem to be determined to debate with someone what you’ve written, so here’s what I mean by “historical short-cuts” and pushing your own POV: “According to some sources, the first European to see the Australian continent was Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós.” Simply plain wrong, a fact finally acknowledged above after a lot of discussion. “…being Portuguese, Torres knew about the early discoveries of Cristóvão de Mendonça.” Again, simply wrong. We don’t know anything at all about Torres’ background. He may have been Swedish for all we know (joke). We also know little about de Mendonca, and nothing at all of his possible voyages. Snowy Haiblen, Peter Trickett as historians? No. Snowy Haiblen, who is quoted repeatedly above, appears to be a high school student (Dickson College is a Canberra High School, a fact easily checked). Peter Trickett is a retired journalist who specifically says his book is not written as an academic text. G. Butler Earp, also cited as an authority on Australian History, was writing an "Immigrants Guide to Australian goldfields" in 1852. You have selected these writers because they fit your thesis. By the way, McIntyre was also not a historian and never claimed to be. Lawrence Fitzgerald also was not a historian. He was a retired military officer (and being a surveyor, closest to qualified on the topic of map reading). C.M.H. “Manning” Clark, the one trained historian cited above, does not dwell on the possibility of a Portuguese or Spanish discovery as claimed. The brief reference appears on page 17 of Volume 1 of his 6 Volume History of Australia. The section about Torres in the strait that now bears his name begins “…It is clear that it (the change by Torres from using the north coast of New Guinea to sail to Manila) had nothing to do with hopes of discovering new land. His (Torres’) mind was on other things. What he noticed was the archipelago of islands without number…” There are existing charts of parts of Torres voyage and a well known account by Don Diego de Prado y Tovar. Torres also made a report to the Spanish king. These “secret” reports (according to your thesis) make no reference whatsoever to a land that could be Australia, although they are most insightful about New Guinea. I actually think its odds on the Spanish voyage under Torres sighted Cape York. But I dont think it warrants mention here for the reasons I mentioned some days ago. Having said my piece again, please note I'm not a contributor to this page. I think you need to accept consensus and move onto something new! Nickm57 (talk) 11:30, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Nickm, I am not determined to debate anything with anyone, just to improve an article that omits historical info supported by various writers, including historians. If you choose to ignore Beyond Capricorn (2007) even if not written "in academic style", and the previous writers who have demonstrated this theory, it will be contrary to the interest of readers. As for the other sources (Dickson College) I stumbled upon them after a quick search. I could have quoted others. Information about the prior discoveries is everywhere. Another source is Ian McKiggan (1977) who wrote "The Portuguese Expedition to Bass Strait in A.D. 1522", and Eric B. Whitehouse [14]. Hellen Walis, the map curator of the British Museum also supported the thesis [15]. The WP article lists others. Regarding your other points: The first statement about "Queiros discovering Australia" is not mine. The thesis belongs to early 20th century Archbishop of Sydney Patrick Francis Moran. I do accept however, that this could be wrong, based on the other sources which say his expedition turned back after landing at Espiritu Santo. As for Torres being Portuguese, there are Portuguese and British historians who say so. He could have also been Spanish. Still, what's the point? The question is that it was likely he knew about the early Portuguese voyages in Asia (Goa, Malacca, Sumatra, Timor, Moluccas, etc) including that of Mendonça because he was working for the Spanish crown - which from 1580 to 1640 was united with Portugal. As for Mendonça, indeed we know little of his voyages, except that he was in Asia in the 1520's, and died in 1532 as Captain of a Portuguese fortified city in the Persian Gulf. Again, it's not up to us to decide whether this is "true". The question is there are reliable sources which argue both ways. Regarding Clark, point taken. I meant that he considered the possibility that Torres saw the northern coast of Australia, not that he discovered it. According to Collingridge and others, he already knew about Australia so he did not need to "discover" it. As for Trickett and Fitzgerald not being "historians", fine. Thanks for looking that up. Does that rule them out as "verifiable sources"? Their argument follows that of earlier historians such as George Collingridge which you have not mentioned. As for Kenneth McIntyre the WP article does say he was a historian. Also, Ian McKiggan was a matematician who made a detailed study of the eastern coast of Australia based on the Dauphin map (part of Dieppe Maps) allowing for "mathematical corrections in longitudinal errors in early mapping". See page 130 [16]. Frankly, there is so much evidence linked with the theory of Portuguese discovery that it is hard to ignore: the Dieppe Maps, the Cornelius Wytfliet (1597) map, the Carronade Island cannons, the Mahogany Ship, the ruins in Bittangabee Bay, the words of Portuguese origin in Aboriginal Australian language discovered by Dr. Carl-Georg von Brandenstein etc. Yes, some historians like Pearson and Richardson have criticized all or part of this evidence. The fact remains that it is is supported by a bunch of writers and/or historians, recent and old. The Australian Minister of Science said about Kenneth McIntyre's book: "I found its central argument... persuasive, if not conclusive." In the 1980's the theory even became part of Australian school history reading lists . I think that's all I will say for now. JCRB (talk) 11:46, 20 October 2010 (UTC) You seem to be making a full time job for yourself trying to promote this obsession of yours. As has clearly been stated above many times, there is no consenus for this information in this article. It's not that hard to understand. Why do you insist on ranting on about it.--Dmol (talk) 11:56, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Can we archive the discussion in one of those blue boxes? --Merbabu (talk) 12:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC) While people keep responding I suspect the discussion will continue. If people stop responding, it will probably be archived forever this time next month. --AussieLegend (talk) 12:15, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Been watching this from the sidelines for a while. My interest in this aspect of Australia's history woud be satisfied with a sentence in the article saying There is some (considerable?) speculation among historians regarding the possibility that earlier European explorers may also have sighted the Australian coastline. Follow it by as many references as people want to add. HiLo48 (talk) 20:16, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Hilo48, thanks for your suggestion. I think "speculation" is an understatement given the sources that back the theory. Perhaps the following is better (blended in the existing paragraph): "Prior to the arrival of Europeans there were sporadic visits by fishermen from the Indonesian archipelago. Depending on the sources, the first European sighting of the Australian mainland is attributed to Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon or to Iberian explorer Luís Vaz de Torres who both sailed the Torres Strait in 1606 . Although Janszoon preceded Torres by a few months, the Dutchman believed he was in New Guinea. Torres sailed between Cape York and Prince of Wales Island but did not land in Australia. An alternative theory suggests that the Portuguese discovered the continent in the early 16th century. In either case, the first recorded European landfall was that of Janszoon who sighted the coast of Cape York in early 1606, and made landfall on 26 February at the Pennefather River on the western shore of Cape York, near the modern town of Weipa..." JCRB (talk) 16:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Im sorry JCRB, but still gives too much weight to a theory, and a theory about an incident that did not greatly affect Australia, if at all. It appearing on a very short summary of Australian history would be WP:UNDUE weight. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Outsiders view...For the Canada (FA article) and History of Canada article (currently updating for GA level) we had a similar problem. That is that many wish to add lots of info about the Portuguese Crown claims and its territorial rights in Canada. We came to a compromise in both articles by simply saying "The extent and nature of Portuguese activity on the Canadian mainland during the 16th century remains unclear and controversial". So was thinking the same could be done here...basically a mention is passing.Moxy (talk) 16:28, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Proposed text Chipmunkdavis, I don't think that short reference to the alternative theory is giving it "too much weight". It's just one sentence. As for the mention of Torres' voyage, I can't think of a much shorter reference. Maybe you prefer the following: "Prior to the arrival of Europeans there were sporadic visits by fishermen from the Indonesian archipelago. The first European sighting of the Australian mainland is attributed to both Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon and to Iberian explorer Luís Vaz de Torres depending on the sources. They both sailed the Torres Strait in 1606 . Although Janszoon preceded Torres by a few months, the Dutchman believed he was in New Guinea. An alternative theory suggests that the Portuguese discovered the continent in the early 16th century . Not taking into account this theory, the first recorded European landfall was that of Janszoon who sighted the coast of Cape York in early 1606, and made landfall on 26 February at the Pennefather River on the western shore of Cape York, near the modern town of Weipa..." JCRB (talk) 14:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC) Absolutely not. You might be content to argue ad nauseam, but you will have proved nothing other than your being a nuisance. Your position has been repeatedly disproved and contradicted. Please take the time to read some of the policy pages referred to you throughout the discussion above. — cj | talk 14:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC) CJ, your attitude is out of line. Please respect other editors. The only "nuisance" is your inability to counter arguments with arguments.JCRB (talk) 11:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC) JCRB - you are on your own here. And it is clear that you have exhausted the patience of the community. Time to walk away from this one. --Merbabu (talk) 12:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Seeking consensus to close discussion

I'd like to formally propose that we close and archive this discussion. It's clearly going nowhere and until such time as it's closed, JCRB is going to keep adding content regardless of the fact that, despite weeks of discussion, there has been no consensus to endorse any of his proposals and plenty of opposition to everything he's suggested. Can we please reach some consensus, otherwise the page is going to be 99.999% pointless discussion, instead of just 92%. --AussieLegend (talk) 14:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Close it down. I'm not even going to give any reasons why, or JCRB will start arguing again.--Dmol (talk) 10:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. CLose it down now. It's already passed the point of disruption. --Merbabu (talk) 10:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Pointless POV-pushing by JCRB which is not benefiting the article in anyway. No point on continuing on the road which takes you to a dead end. Bidgee (talk) 11:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Despite your aggressive opposition and rude comments, and for those of you not interested in this discussion, let me summarize the following:

• So far, this is and has been a constructive discussion. The terms "pointless" or "dead" are obviously inappropriate for a discussion which has advanced since it started:

a) Following a revision of the sources, the Queiros discovery was ruled out.

b) A consensus was reached on the Etymology section.

c) Editor HiLo48 suggested a short mention of the Theory citing a similar discussion and solution in the Canada article, which I clearly support.

• The Theory of Portuguese discovery is supported by a good number of Australian and non-Australian writers, from George Collingridge (1895) to Kenneth McIntyre (1977) which the Australian Minister of Science Barry Jones said he found "persuasive, if not conclusive", Eric B. Whitehouse (1978), Ian McKiggan (1977), Helen Wallis (1981), Fitzgerald (1984) and Peter Trickett (2007), specially his book Beyond Capricorn.
• In the 1980's the theory became part of Australian school history reading lists.
• Despite opposition by other authors, this theory can be considered central to Australian history, if not mainstream.

For all of the above I suggest: first a more constructive, open-minded, and specially polite attitude by some editors, and second, a short mention of this in the history section with a link to the main article. JCRB (talk) 13:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

After much reading on this topic, I have come to discover that even if all the claims are true they did not affect Australia historically. SO realy this info should be added to Portuguese Empire and/or Portuguese discoveries because it had no barring on Australia's history or affected its inhabitants. This topic is more about Portuguese mariners and what they have accomplished rather then Australia. That said the "Theory" should be linked at least in the see also section, unless people think its Content forking. The reason the Canada article does mention this topic is because of accounts of Aboriginal Canadians being kidnapped and taken back to Europe, thus had an affect on the native populations and there oral history. Is there any accounts of any contact between the Portuguese and Aborigines of Australia? Because just seeing the land does not mean there was any influence. Moxy (talk) 15:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Moxy (talk) 15:06, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Moxy, thanks for your comments. The Canadian and Australian case are almost identical. Following your argument that an event with no repercussion on a country's history deserves no mention, then the fact that Aboriginal Canadians were taken back to Portugal should not be included in the Canada article either because this had no influence on Canada's history in any way. Still, there is proof of Portuguese contact with Aboriginal Australians. Dr. Carl-Georg von Brandenstein discovered there are words of Portuguese origin in Aboriginal Australian language which suggests ample contact between both cultures . As for simply "seeing the land", the Portuguese explorers didn't simply see it, they chartered its coastline (see the the Dieppe Maps, and the Cornelius Wytfliet map of 1597). In fact, mathematician Ian McKiggan (1977) made a detailed study of one of the Dieppe Maps and proved it represents the eastern coast of Australia taking into account mathematical corrections in longitudinal errors in early mapping (See page 130 [17]). Again, this is supported by Helen Wallis (1981), Fitzgerald (1984) and Peter Trickett (2007) among others. JCRB (talk) 17:19, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

"Australia has strong international teams in cricket..."

Is this still the case? Given that the men's team is no longer ranked in the top four of the ten "test cricket nations". In addition I note that the criteria used for suggesting that Australia is "strong" at the sport relates to the one day form of the game which many expert commentators is now suggesting is becoming moribund. Silent Billy (talk) 22:16, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, no longer in the top four, but they're still in the top ten, out of the 200 or so countries in the world. Sure, most don't play international cricket, but it's still a pretty strong position. I would draw a parallel with a game like baseball. Beyond the top three or four countries, baseball would be a minor sport, but we would probably still say that the fifth best team is a strong one (out of 200). HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Also, consider that wikipedia is meant to take a long-term view. Australia has for many decades been strong interenational side. A recent fall in form is just that - recent. Perhaps the article wording could be tweaked to something like "long been a strong international team" or similiar. see WP:RECENT. --Merbabu (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm with Merbabu, per RECENT, with a reference that says that Aust has historically been a strong cricket team. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

You guys waste too much of your lunch money YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Formal name of the Monarch. The present Elizabeth is Australia's first Elizabeth, not second.

In the infobox we are told that the Monarch is Elizabeth II. Is this name technically correct? Elizabeth I was never monarch of Australia. The present one is the first Elizabeth who has been monarch of Australia, not the second. HiLo48 (talk) 17:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The present one isn't Elizabeth I one though, she's Elizabeth II, regardless of the fact that she's the first Elizabeth to be our queen. This discussion has been had somewhere but I can't remember where I saw it. I do remember though that Elizabeth II was correct. --AussieLegend (talk) 17:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It would be interesting to see that discussion. It's been during my lifetime that she became formally known as Queen of Australia. I'm not pushing a POV here. I'm sure there would be a formal protocol or something. But it just sort of makes sense to me that that addition of Australia to her title would have made her Queen Elizabeth I of Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 20:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Maybe an initial step would be finding a credible external reference saying that the current Queen is called "Queen Elizabeth I of Australia". Format (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not pushing for a change if the title is right. Just wondering why it is the way that it is. I've done some research and reached List of titles and honours of Queen Elizabeth II. It has a section called Scottish controversy which says "...only in Scotland did the title Elizabeth II cause controversy as there had never been an Elizabeth I in Scotland." A legal case was made, but "lost on the grounds that the pursuers had not title to sue the Crown". All very interesting. I learnt a lot on my way to that point. It's all very complicated. HiLo48 (talk) 07:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

First sighting of Australia by Queiros

Extended content

According to some sources, the first European to see the Australian continent was Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós (Quiros in Spanish) who sailed the South Pacific in 1605. The members of his expedition saw the northern tip of Australia, though they did not make landfall. Quirós landed on a large island which he took to be part of the southern continent, and named it La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo (The Austrian Land of the Holy Spirit), for King Philip III, who belonged to the House of Habsburg or House of Austria. The island was in fact in the New Hebrides archipelago, today the country of Vanuatu. The island is still called Espiritu Santo. This information is not in the article. I have therefore included the following sentences: Etymology section: In 1606 Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós sailing on a Spanish expedition arrived in Espiritu Santo and named the island "La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo". History section: European explorers first sighted Australia in the early 17th century. Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandez de Queirós, who led a Spanish expedition to the South Pacific in 1605, was probably the first European to see the Australian continent . The Torres Strait is named after Luis Váez de Torres, a member of the Queiros expedition. However, the first recorded European sighting of the mainland and the first landfall were attributed to the Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon... The discovery of Australia is contested between Dutch explorer Willem Janszoon and Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandez de Queiros. There are references for both interpretations, all of them reliable. This is why I suggest using the term "probably" when mentioning Queiros' first sighting of the Australian mainland. JCRB (talk) 13:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC) Sorry, JCRB, but I don't this is appropriate. I just took a look at some parts of Richardson on Google Books. Richardson's thesis appears to be that these claims re de Queirós are likely to be untrue - the source should not be misconstrued in the WP article. Moran's pamphlet is useless as a source and should not be quoted at all. The lack of scholarly credence for this theory is reflected in the Australian Government's culture portal making no mention of it. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC) Point 1 (Etymology Section). I am waiting to hear comments about this fact. Point 2 (History Section) Richardson says that the masses supposedly said on Australian soil were in fact said on Espiritu Santo. Therefore Moran's claims that Queiros made landfall are probably untrue, I agree. However, my point is not about landfall, but about the first sighting of the Australian continent. Richardson clearly says: "Torres certainly sailed through the strait that bears his name in 1606 and may possibly have seen the tip of Cape York in the distance..." (page 20, "Was Australia Chartered before 1606?" by W.A.R. Richardson) This means there is a reasonable possibility that Torres, part of the Queiros expedition, sighted Australia before the Dutch. Also, let me add that a government's failure to mention a historical event on their website is no proof whatsoever that such an event did not take place. I can show you many official websites which ignore or forget significant events in their history. JCRB (talk) 11:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC) "May possibly have" does not mean there is a reasonable possibility that somebody who landed 2,700km away thinking that he was still in Australia actually saw the country. At best it's giving him the benefiot of the doubt. --AussieLegend (talk) 11:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC) Indeed. It's tempting to believe that there were European discoverers before Janszoon, but we do not know for certain that there were any other before him. You cannot accord a "reasonable possibility" with the status of "historical event". And that is certainly why the Australian Government does not recognise any claim prior to Janszoon's - there is no proof, just some vague possibilities. In relation to Queiros, you've gone from "probably" down to "may possibly" and "a reasonable possibility". On that basis, we may as well include an equally "reasonable possibility", the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia, which holds that the continent was discovered in 1521, a full 85 years before Janszoon. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC) Agree with Jack. Going back to your Etymological point: we should only include this if there is any demonstrated link between de Queirós's naming of what is now Vanuatu and the name later given to the southern continent, Australia. While the two look very similar, that does not mean there are etymological or historical links. The continent's name derives from word/s meaning "southern", whereas "Austrialia" appears derived from "Austria". As far as I can see, we are dealing with a superficial similarity that has no basis in etymology. But I'm happy to be corrected. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:44, 7 September 2010 (UTC) Thanks for your comments. Again, I am not arguing that Torres or Queiros sighted Australia for certain before the Dutch, rather, that this possibility exists, and that it should be mentioned. Regarding the Portuguese discovery of Australia in 1522, yes I have read about that. They called it Jave La Grande ("Jave the Great") and there are 16th century maps of a coast very similar to the Australian coast with Portuguese names on it. Maybe this should also be mentioned with a link to the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia. Regarding the Etymology of Australia, I think the issue needs no further explanation: In "A note of Australia del Espíritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt and published by Samuel Purchas in Hakluytus Posthumus" English writer Richard Hakluyt talks about Espiritu Santo island, discovered by Queiros in 1606 which he called "Austrialia del Espiritu Santo". Queiros belived he was in Australia. What part of that historical and etymological link don't you see? JCRB (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC) No, no, no. It's not that there was known to be a large land mass with the name of Australia, and all any explorer had to do was actually find it. That's not it at all. There was believed to be a large southern land mass. It did not have a name, because its very existence was only in the realm of fantasy and postulation. Queros sighted the place we now call Vanuatu. He called it Austrialia del Spiritu Santo - a reference to Austria, nowhere else. The etymology of the word "Austria" is from a German word that means "east" (of Germany); it's Österreich in German (Öster-reich = Eastern Realm), which was rendered in Latin as Austria. It has nothing to do with the Latin australis, meaning "south", which was the basis of the name of Australia. The fact that Queiros believed (mistakenly) he'd found the Great Southern Land, and the name he gave to that place, have nothing to do with the name later given to the actual Great Southern Land. There is a superficial similarity, that's all. The confusion of Austria with Australia is something we take modern-day Americans to task for all the time. Please let's not have it making an appearance here. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC) Oh I get it. You're saying it's pure coincidence that "Austr-i-alia del Espiritu Santo" (name given by Queiros) and "Australia del Espiritu Santo" (first recorded use of the word Australia in English) are almost identical? Oh, I see. That's a really convincing argument. JCRB (talk) 19:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC) Quite a bit of confusion happening here. In February 1606, Janszoon landed on Cape York near Weipa, the first definitely known landfall by a European on Australian soil. He thought this was a continuation of New Guinea. He did not realise he had stumbled upon the Great Southern Land. In May 1606, Queiros discovered a group of islands to the south-east of New Guinea. He named them Austrialia del Espiritu Santo, in honour of his patron, who was of the royal house of Austria. Although he believed and claimed he’d discovered the Great Southern Land or Terra Australis (he hadn’t – he’d discovered Vanuatu), at no time did he ever give it a name that actually means that or anything like that. It is a pure coincidence that the Latin word for southern (australis) and the German word for eastern (öster, and its derivatives in Latin: Austria, Austrialia; which have given us the English name of that country, Austria) are so similar and easily confused. Blame Queiros for not picking his name more judiciously. It has no doubt contributed to the absolute furphy that Queiros landed near Gladstone, Qld, and was the "true" discoverer of Australia. There is no evidence that Queiros ever came within a bull’s roar of Australia. Even if Queiros did actually land on Australian soil, of which hypothesis there is no evidence, Janszoon beat him by 3 months anyway. When Hakluyt wrote in 1625 about "Australia del Espíritu Santo", he was certainly referring to the discovery made by Queiros (i.e. Vanuatu). He did not exactly copy Queiros’s spelling, but they were less strict in those days about such things. Despite what some old history textbooks might have said, the terms "Austrialia del Espíritu Santo" or "Australia del Espíritu Santo" have never been directly applied to the landmass now known as Australia. They have always referred to what was believed to be the Great Southern Land (which we now know as Australia), but what is actually Vanuatu. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:40, 10 September 2010 (UTC) No, no confusion at all. If the "first recorded use of the word Australia in English" was in "A note of Australia del Espíritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt and published by Samuel Purchas in Hakluytus Posthumus", then the article should say where this name came from. Regardless of where they were (Queiros was indeed in Vanuatu) the point is the name "Australia del Espiritu Santo" came from Queiros' expedition, which landed in Espiritu Santo and called the island that way (thinking he was in mainland Australia). A short sentence mentioning this should be enough. That's all. JCRB (talk) 03:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC) It's probably not coincidence, but due to the same etymological background of the word. Europeans had thought there was a great "terra australis" for ages. It was on medieval maps and the like, although just as a large blob. When they found land in the south, they named it after this. I believe the first use of Australia in English is often claimed to be by Matthew Flinders, though I'm sure someone knows more than me. If someone finds some random island and calls it the southern land, that doesn't really relate to Australia at all. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 05:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC) True, Europeans thought there was a Terra australis incognita since long ago, and the first European to claim the discovery (though mistakenly) and to give it a name (La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo), was Queiros in 1606. This name was later used by Richard Hakluyt in 1625. JCRB (talk) 12:55, 11 September 2010 (UTC) JCRB, you say "Queiros' expedition, which landed in Espiritu Santo and called the island that way (thinking he was in mainland Australia)" as though he named it after Terra Australis when in actual fact, as JackofOz has repeatedly noted, he named the island in honour of his royal patrons, the Habsburgs of Austria. You cannot claim that the word Australia derives from this Austrialia, or that the corruption of Austrialia in an obscure 17th century document in anyway contributed to the later use of Australia. I'll agree, though, that if we are to mention this earliest recorded instance of Australia in a published text, then we need also to say "where this name came from" — and that is as a corruption Austrialia. In an etymology section of an overview article, we do not and should not be delving into (unsubstantiated) theories of alternate discovery. — cj | talk 05:40, 17 September 2010 (UTC) I have once more removed the contested information because as far as I can see, there is not any consensus for its addition. It is a reference to a totally different place thousands of miles away.--Dmol (talk) 12:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC) I would encourage editors who oppose including the sentence on Queiros and Australia del Espiritu Santo to explain their arguments here, instead of threatening to block editors for "potential" edit-warring. I would like to see what type of arguments are used in the face of verifiable information. JCRB (talk) 20:09, 16 September 2010 (UTC) The reasons have been explained ad nauseum and in great detail above. There is no consensus to add this information. It appears that you are the only editor seeking to add it.--Dmol (talk) 20:56, 16 September 2010 (UTC) I need to be convinced that the use of a word meaning east (AustrIalia) has anything to do with a word meaning south (Australis). HiLo48 (talk) 21:08, 16 September 2010 (UTC) Dmol, the reasons have not been explained ad nauseam. The expression "ad nauseam" applies to very long, unproductive and tiresome discussions. We have only started discussing the Etymology issue recently. I wish you provided reasonable arguments beyond "there is no consensus". CJ, I partly agree with you, and I appreciate your reasoning. If the article mentions the earlist recorded use of the word in English, it should also say "where this name came from". I also think that it should say who gave it this name: navigator Pedro Fernandes Queiros who landed in the main island of Vanuatu, thinking he was on mainland Terra Australis. By the way, the Spanish article on Australia says that "Austr-i-alia" has a double etymological root: "Austria" (for the Habsburgs of Austria, the Spanish dynasty of the time) and "Austral" meaning southern (Queiros was searching for Terra Australis or "Southern Land"). The combined "Austrialia" was later corrupted or translated incorrectly to English as "Australia" [18] JCRB (talk) 14:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC) No, we do not need to talk about Queirós, because what we are talking about from an etymological point of view is the earliest recorded use of the word Australia. This earliest recorded use was not by Queirós, but by a writer describing the island and corrupting its name. To delve deeper into the matter is to dapple in a history of Vanuatu and Spanish exploration. That is not our interest here. As to your "double etymology" idea, I'm unconvinced, and the burden is with you to prove it. — cj | talk 00:56, 22 September 2010 (UTC) Again, I have to agree only partially. Yes, the double etymology hypothesis needs to be proven. However, I disagree that mentioning Queiros as the navigator who gave Australia an early version of its name, later corrupted by Master Hakluyt, is "to dapple in a history of Vanuatu and Spanish exploration". Queiros was not in a random island he decided to call "Austrialia". He was on an island he believed was Australia. The link between the name and the land he thought he had reached, cannot be ignored. JCRB (talk) 10:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC) All the Queiros thought he found was some mythical southern land, which had nothing to do with modern australia except that both navigators thought they found a southern land mass. The move from "Australis" to "Australia" was probably not a big step. This source [19] by the australian government says that Flinders thought of it himself. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC) There seems to be an element of not hearing the arguments, though JCRB has certainly continued to engage on the talk page and (mostly) not in the article mainspace. I am still seeing no link between the two superficially similar names, and therefore no need for discussion in a section on the etymology of "Australia". Look at it from a different angle: if a lay reader who knew nothing of the subject read about Queros's name for Vanuatu, would they be given a better understanding of the historical origin of the country's name? No. Because it isn't where the name came from. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC) I really think this argument is exhausted. You say "the link between the name and the land he thought he had reached, cannot be ignored." But the point is, there is no link - not without proof that he named the island in the fashion of Terra Australis. The available evidence shows that he in fact named them for the Hapsburgs of Austria. Etymologically, the only relevance this has for this article is that the superficial similarity Austrialia and Australia caused one writer to mistakenly use the later in reference to the former, and that this mistake was the first recorded instance of Australia. — cj | talk 06:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC) Yup, well and truly dead and flogged --Merbabu (talk) 09:53, 23 September 2010 (UTC) I agree with that. The current sentence should be sufficient. Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC) See new section belowNickm57 (talk) 23:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from MelbGuy1, 29 September 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} as of august 2010 australia's unemployment rate is 5.1 percent, reference link: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0

MelbGuy1 (talk) 22:09, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

 Done Thanks, Stickee (talk) 00:05, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

re: biggest worldwide selling albums missing

If Opera and Symphony's get a paragraph, contemporary music deserves a mention.

referring to wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_worldwide

ACDC's back in black is the second biggest selling album of all time, the Bee Gee's ranked 9th with Saturday Night Fever. There are other notable internationally acclaimed musicians (eg. kylie minogue, olivia newton john, inxs, jet). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.190.211.91 (talk) 18:26, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

The theory of Portuguese discovery and Torres...

Extended content

For the sake of clarity I've created a new section and included some of the discussion from above, that had moved into this topic. Hope you dont mind, JCRBNickm57 (talk) 23:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC) Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC) Surely you mean to suggest "first sighting by Torres"? Quiros was on his way back to Mexico when Torres was navigating the strait that now bears his name. Quiros could not be said to still be in command of an expedition that he had abandoned! My view is Torres' success was remarkable, and I think Brett Hilder has established a high likelyhood that Torres did see the tip of what is now Cape York. However, its clear from existing records that (if they did see Cape York) the Spanish did not recognise the land they saw for what it was. Thus, the sighting, if it occurred, contributed nothing to European knowledge of the world. This is also Mike Pearson's thinking about the contentious Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia- if it happened, it contributed nothing to "expand European knowledge of Australia, the portrayal of Jave La Grande having no greater status that any other conjectural portrayal of Terra Australis." For that reason, I feel its not appropriate to mention either in the short summary on this page. Both Torres, Quiros and "the Theory..." all have detailed pages of their own! Nickm57 (talk) 22:10, 11 October 2010 (UTC) Nickm57, yes, I meant the "first sighting by Torres" who was part of Queiros' original expedition. Indeed, there are different sources which prove this first sighting. You mentioned Brett Hilder and his "high likelyhood" that this ocurred. There are other sources. In The First Discovery of Australia and New Guinea (1906) [20] the author, George Collingridge says: "Sailing along the shores of the islands to the north of Australia, between Cape York and Prince of Wales Island, Torres regained the coast of New Guinea [...] He had discovered Australia without being aware of the fact, and had completed the Spanish circumnavigation of New Guinea." See this map for the full route of Torres [21]. In a timeline at the end of the book, Collingridge also writes: "1606. Torres sails towards Australia from the New Hebrides, passes through the straits that bear his name, and discovers Australia, without, apparently, being aware of the fact." So according to this historian Torres was the first European to sight Australia (and to sail its waters) although he did not make landfall. Regarding the prior discovery of Australia by the Portuguese, there are also a number of sources which prove this, largely based on the Dieppe maps, specially this one [22] and this one [23] which show the Australian landmass south of Java and Sumatra, but farther to the east. In the same work Collingridge explains that these maps were purposely distorted by the Portuguese so that Australia appeared in the hemisphere assigned to Portugal by Pope Alexander (in the Treaty of Tordesillas). Collingridge provides an interesting illustration comparing the real and the fictitious location of Australia here [24]. He also explains: "the Portuguese, who were the first to make discoveries in these seas, must have been perfectly aware that the coasts they had charted lay more to the east, and if they dragged them out of position and placed them under Java as shown in these maps, it was in order to secure to themselves the lion's share, for their line of demarcation, as fixed by Pope Alexander". So according to the above information, both Torres (in 1606) and the Portuguese (in the 16th century) arrived in Australia before the Dutch. Whether they made this knowledge available to other Europeans or not, is not really the point. Many discoveries were kept secret during the 16th and 17th centuries so that competing nations did not threaten trade or power in the newly discovered regions. Regarding the fictitious position of Australia in the above-mentioned map, this is what Spanish pilot Juan Gaetan said about the Portuguese charts: "I saw and knew all their charts. They were all cunningly falsified, with longitudes and latitudes distorted, and land-features drawn in at places and stretched out at others to suit their purposes, etc., etc., and when they found out that I understood their little pranks they made strenuous efforts to get me to enlist in their service, and made me advantageous offers, which, however, I scorned to accept"' [25] So clearly it was customary to protect valuable information like maps and trade routes by keeping them secret and even falsifying documents. With this in mind, it seems highly probably that the Portuguese arrived Australia in the 16th century. Therefore, the article should mention both of these prior discoveries. JCRB (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC) Scope of the history section in this article. A WP article on Australia, in its short history summary section, should not need to include reference to unsubstantiated or speculative matters, and this includes suggestions of voyages by the Portuguese. The full History of Australia and European exploration of Australia articles, linked from this page, do make passing mention of this theory. The same applies to speculation about what Torres may have seen, even though his voyage was documented. My benchmark for whether it’s appropriate to mention this theory in this article is still based on Mike Pearson’s comment. Whether such sightings occurred or not, they went unrecorded and were not exploited or celebrated. They contributed nothing to European knowledge of Australia, and therefore are at best, curiosities of our own history. Many reading this discussion will have contributed to articles on European exploration of Australia and read Collingridge’s works of the late 19th century. May I recommend to interested Wikipedians some of the more recent writers like Bill Richardson, Gayle K. Brunelle and Robert King. I think this is where informed contemporary thinking is, on the Dieppe maps and any possible connection to Australia. Nickm57 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC) By the way JCRB – you suggest "many other' discoveries of the 16th and 17th century were kept secret. I would have more sympathy for your argument to include this topic if I could think of any comparable secret discoveries! On the contrary, I suggest most "new world" geographical discoveries were blabbed about in 16th and 17th century Europe very quickly! Nickm57 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC) Generally unknown discoveries: European maritime expeditions from the Age of Exploration up to the 18th century were usually kept secret to prevent rival powers from gaining access to profitable trade, or from establishing bases that would threaten their colonies. This meant either locking away the documents that recorded the discovery, or distorting the charts as I explained above. Discussing 18th century Spanish travel literature, Professor Garcia Sanchez from Eastern Washington University writes: "Although the production of [Spanish] narrative was very abundant, due to the secretiveness the Borbonic government kept on those explorations, they didn’t have a lot of popular acknowledgement like similar narratives in the rest of Europe". There are territories which the Portuguese or the Spanish discovered in the 16th century, but due to the policy of discretion this has not been acknowledged sufficiently. In territories where a different European power eventually took over, this is specially the case. For example, according to this theory Hawaii was probably discovered by the Spanish in 1555. See also this article[26]. The discovery of the Spice Islands or Moluccas was also kept secret by the Portuguese for a few decades until the unification of Spain and Portugal under the Iberian Union. The route of the Manila Galleons itself was kept rigorously secret for almost its full duration (1565-1815) allowing the Viceroyalty of New Spain and the Casa de Contratacion to operate a transpacific monopoly between the Philippines and the Americas undisturbed for at least one century. So not all discoveries were disclosed. In fact, documents of exploration such as logbooks and maps were sometimes locked away for a very long time. According to this book (quoting the WP article) "the Hawaiian islands were not known to have any valuable resources, so the Spanish would have not made an effort to settle them". The same thing happened to the Mariana Islands (specially Guam) discovered by Magellan in 1521, and visited by various explorers afterwards (among them Legazpi and Urdaneta in 1565) but not settled until 1668. Scope of the history section: As for the scope of the history section, I think we need to be more open-minded towards information that we are not used to. Just because the Portuguese discovery of Australia is not mainstream in English-language literature, does not mean it is inaccurate. Just because the Torres discovery is not "generally accepted" nowadays does not mean it should be ruled out. Let the reader decide that for himself. A short mention of these two possible discoveries and a link does not in any way harm the article. What's more, it contributes to it. JCRB (talk) 18:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC) Well, I've said my bit for now, I'm sure the many other contributors to this page have an opinion too.Nickm57 (talk) 23:37, 13 October 2010 (UTC) Yes and I agree. JCRB, there is simply no scope for discussion of these obscure matters in this summary article, as to do so would run up against Wikipedia's policies about due and undue weight. — cj | talk 06:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC) I disagree. I think I've produced sufficient sources to justify at least a small reference to the prior discoveries. These are not "obscure matters" but verifiable information which is relevant to the article. JCRB (talk) 16:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC) It's quite irrelevant, because whether it happened of not, it had no bearing on the creation of the Australia we know today, and has had no effect on Australia's development. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:31, 16 October 2010 (UTC) Still, it's part of Australia's history. JCRB (talk) 17:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC) That may be so, but it is in no way of such importance that it deserves a spot in the summary of Australia's history, a short summary at that. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC) I've been watching these discussions with interest and while I didn't really want to get involved I'm forced to because that dead horse is really starting to stink. I have to agree with the arguments presented by others, there's really no place for mention of this in this article. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC) Totally agree with above. There has not been any consensus to add the info, despite pages of discussion. Dead horse.--Dmol (talk) 07:34, 17 October 2010 (UTC) I wouldn't say a constructive discussion "stinks". All of this is useful information about Australia's early history. As for the "dead horse"(?) the long discussion was about Etymology. That's over. This discussion is about prior discoveries. Please don't try to kill the discussion just because you don't agree. JCRB (talk) 21:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC) I'm afraid you've missed what we're getting at, which is that the discussion was pretty much ended so long ago that, like most dead things that remain unburied, it's going nowhere and needs to be buried as soon as possible. The discussion has been going on for seven weeks now, we've just changed tack slightly, and you're the only one who doesn't seem to get that there's no place for any of this information in this article. The discussion is no longer constructive, and hasn't been for some time. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:46, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Additional Sources To move forward, I will produce a number of additional sources to support that both the Portuguese and the Torres discoveries deserve a mention. First, let me say that when reading the contradicting versions of the discovery of Australia, it was surprising to see that most sources agreed that Willem Janszoon had arrived before Torres. The Dutch explorer was there in March 1606, whereas Torres arrived in August or September 1606. If Torres had sighted Australia after the Dutch, why do historians like Earp (1852) or Collingridge (1895) claim that Torres discovered it? Or why do many others like Clark (1962), Rients (1969) and Ziegler (1970) dwell on this possibility? Why the debate if Janszoon clearly preceded Torres? I looked into this and found out that Janszoon actually ignored he was in Australia. Janszoon thought he was in a southern extension of New Guinea [27]. That's why authors such as Collingridge claim that Torres discovered the continent, not Janszoon. The Dutch navigator thought he was sailing along the south of New Guinea, not in a new island. This fact would disqualify him as the "first discoverer". This is an extract from the Project Gutemberg Australia article cited above: "Willem Janszoon, was actually in Torres Strait in March 1606, a few weeks before Torres sailed through it. But provisions ran short, and nine of the crew were murdered by natives [...] so that the Duyfken did not penetrate beyond Cape Keer-weer on the west side of the Cape York Peninsula. Her captain returned in the belief that the south coast of New Guinea was joined to the land along which he coasted, and Dutch maps reproduced this error for many years to come. So Janszoon thought he was sailing along the south coast of New Guinea. Now, Torres also saw Australia, but was "unaware of the fact" (according to most historians) because there are no records of his discovery. However, unlike Janszoon, Torres did know the land he saw was a separate island. He could have known this because he sailed the strait (Torres Strait) that separates New Guinea from Australia. Clark (1962) says "what he noticed was an archipelago of islands without number." [28] So, if Torres saw a new landmass separate from New Guinea which (supposedly) no other explorers had seen before, why didn't he claim this discovery? Why are there no charts of Northern Australia from Torres' expedition? Well, according to Trickett in his book "Beyond Capricorn" (2007) which follows the thesis of Kenneth McIntyre (1977) and Fitzgerald (1984), Torres already had information about that strait. That's why he did not claim its discovery. Trickett argues that being Portuguese, Torres knew about the early discoveries of Cristóvão de Mendonça, the navigator who "discovered" Australia in 1521 according to the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia. Haiblen (2007) writes the following about Trickett's thesis in Clio Journal of History (Dickinson College): "...as Torres was Portuguese (though he sailed for the Spanish), he may have had inside knowledge of Mendonca’s alleged voyages. Trickett proposes that Torres already knew of the strait before reaching it, as Torres never laid claim to its discovery. This opinion is supported by the world map of Cornelius Wytfliet (1597) which shows a gap between New Guinea and the Great South Land nine years prior to Torres’ being there." [29] This evidence links the Mendonça voyage in the Theory of Portuguese discovery with the thesis that Torres discovered Australia, or that in fact, he re-discovered it. Earp wrote in his book "Gold Colonies of Australia": "Torres [...] discovered the insularity of the northern portion of the country [Australia] by passing though the Strait which now bears his name, and so round Cape York into the Arafura Sea. It would almost appear from his having thus pronounced the country to be an island [...] that Torres had obtained reliable information from some one who had preceded him." [30] So Torres most likey already knew the strait, as well as Australia itself, that's why he did not claim to have discovered either of them. As for the absence of records of his voyage (almost a century after Mendonça's expedition) again the reason is the secrecy with which Portuguese and Spanish explorations were conducted. This has been explained before in this talk page. In fact, the British only came to know about Torres' expedition 150 years later, when Manila (part of the Spanish East Indies) was briefly occupied by British troops in 1762. (Curiously, this was only 8 years before James Cook arrived in Australia). Earp explains: "The discovery by Torres has only become known at a comparatively recent date, and the way in which it became known is curious. On the capture of Manila in 1762 by British troops, [a British official] found amongst the Government state papers,a copy of the letter from Torres to the King of Spain, who, with the usual jealousy of European monarchs at this period, had kept the secret of his discoveries from becoming generally known. The discovery of this letter however, places the fact beyond doubt." To conclude, Portuguese navigator Luis Vaz de Torres crossed the strait that bears his name, and sighted Australia (northern tip of Cape York) which he recognized as a separate island in 1606. Although Dutch explorer Janszoon preceded Torres in sighting (and landing) in Australia, he did not recognise it, believing it was an extension of New Guinea. This fact weakens the thesis that Janszoon "discovered Australia". Also, the above sources suggest that Torres had prior knowledge of both Australia and the Torres Strait. Not only did he "pronounce the country an island" with little evidence, but he did not claim such an important discovery. The possibility of Torres having "inside knowledge" of Mendonça's voyages of 1521 "because he was Portuguese" (as Haiblen suggests) is reinforced by the fact that this was the period of the Iberian Union, when the crowns of Portugal and Spain were united under Philip II and later Philip III of Spain. During this time, all matters relating to the Indies came under the control of the Spanish Council of the Indies, suggesting that all Spanish expeditions from the late 16th century already knew about Mendonça's voyage. In my opinion, all of the above exceedingly justifies a small mention of both Torres and the Portuguese discovery of 1521, which are in fact historically related. JCRB (talk) 00:56, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Hi JCRB. The point of this page is to discuss improvements to the article, not simply to try to convince others of your POV (strongly held, I can see, by your recent edits to Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia and European Exploration of Australia). I know there is a fine line sometimes, but I think its clear you do not have consensus for adding these matters on WP, partly because they appear to be your own cobbling together of several different writers views, together with several convenient historical shortcuts, and partly because it's not appropriate in the context of the article. Hope I don't sound rude, that's not my intention, but I think its time to be direct. Nickm57 (talk) 05:11, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Hi Nickm57, thanks for your comments. I don't think you're being fair though. There is a lot of information out there about the prior discoveries of Australia, and I'm only trying to include a reference to this (here and in the articles you have mentioned). I have looked through many sources to get a full picture of the "discovery" issue, not to push a particular point of view. As it stands, the article ignores an important thesis supported by a whole bunch of historians, including Kenneth McIntyre (1977), Fitzgerald (1984) and Peter Trickett (2007) - take a look at Beyond Capricorn. I'm only saying a reference to this would improve the article. JCRB (talk) 10:55, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Hi JCRB -you seem to be determined to debate with someone what you’ve written, so here’s what I mean by “historical short-cuts” and pushing your own POV: “According to some sources, the first European to see the Australian continent was Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós.” Simply plain wrong, a fact finally acknowledged above after a lot of discussion. “…being Portuguese, Torres knew about the early discoveries of Cristóvão de Mendonça.” Again, simply wrong. We don’t know anything at all about Torres’ background. He may have been Swedish for all we know (joke). We also know little about de Mendonca, and nothing at all of his possible voyages. Snowy Haiblen, Peter Trickett as historians? No. Snowy Haiblen, who is quoted repeatedly above, appears to be a high school student (Dickson College is a Canberra High School, a fact easily checked). Peter Trickett is a retired journalist who specifically says his book is not written as an academic text. G. Butler Earp, also cited as an authority on Australian History, was writing an "Immigrants Guide to Australian goldfields" in 1852. You have selected these writers because they fit your thesis. By the way, McIntyre was also not a historian and never claimed to be. Lawrence Fitzgerald also was not a historian. He was a retired military officer (and being a surveyor, closest to qualified on the topic of map reading). C.M.H. “Manning” Clark, the one trained historian cited above, does not dwell on the possibility of a Portuguese or Spanish discovery as claimed. The brief reference appears on page 17 of Volume 1 of his 6 Volume History of Australia. The section about Torres in the strait that now bears his name begins “…It is clear that it (the change by Torres from using the north coast of New Guinea to sail to Manila) had nothing to do with hopes of discovering new land. His (Torres’) mind was on other things. What he noticed was the archipelago of islands without number…” There are existing charts of parts of Torres voyage and a well known account by Don Diego de Prado y Tovar. Torres also made a report to the Spanish king. These “secret” reports (according to your thesis) make no reference whatsoever to a land that could be Australia, although they are most insightful about New Guinea. I actually think its odds on the Spanish voyage under Torres sighted Cape York. But I dont think it warrants mention here for the reasons I mentioned some days ago. Having said my piece again, please note I'm not a contributor to this page. I think you need to accept consensus and move onto something new! Nickm57 (talk) 11:30, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Nickm, I am not determined to debate anything with anyone, just to improve an article that omits historical info supported by various writers, including historians. If you choose to ignore Beyond Capricorn (2007) even if not written "in academic style", and the previous writers who have demonstrated this theory, it will be contrary to the interest of readers. As for the other sources (Dickson College) I stumbled upon them after a quick search. I could have quoted others. Information about the prior discoveries is everywhere. Another source is Ian McKiggan (1977) who wrote "The Portuguese Expedition to Bass Strait in A.D. 1522", and Eric B. Whitehouse [31]. Hellen Walis, the map curator of the British Museum also supported the thesis [32]. The WP article lists others. Regarding your other points: The first statement about "Queiros discovering Australia" is not mine. The thesis belongs to early 20th century Archbishop of Sydney Patrick Francis Moran. I do accept however, that this could be wrong, based on the other sources which say his expedition turned back after landing at Espiritu Santo. As for Torres being Portuguese, there are Portuguese and British historians who say so. He could have also been Spanish. Still, what's the point? The question is that it was likely he knew about the early Portuguese voyages in Asia (Goa, Malacca, Sumatra, Timor, Moluccas, etc) including that of Mendonça because he was working for the Spanish crown - which from 1580 to 1640 was united with Portugal. As for Mendonça, indeed we know little of his voyages, except that he was in Asia in the 1520's, and died in 1532 as Captain of a Portuguese fortified city in the Persian Gulf. Again, it's not up to us to decide whether this is "true". The question is there are reliable sources which argue both ways. Regarding Clark, point taken. I meant that he considered the possibility that Torres saw the northern coast of Australia, not that he discovered it. According to Collingridge and others, he already knew about Australia so he did not need to "discover" it. As for Trickett and Fitzgerald not being "historians", fine. Thanks for looking that up. Does that rule them out as "verifiable sources"? Their argument follows that of earlier historians such as George Collingridge which you have not mentioned. As for Kenneth McIntyre the WP article does say he was a historian. Also, Ian McKiggan was a matematician who made a detailed study of the eastern coast of Australia based on the Dauphin map (part of Dieppe Maps) allowing for "mathematical corrections in longitudinal errors in early mapping". See page 130 [33]. Frankly, there is so much evidence linked with the theory of Portuguese discovery that it is hard to ignore: the Dieppe Maps, the Cornelius Wytfliet (1597) map, the Carronade Island cannons, the Mahogany Ship, the ruins in Bittangabee Bay, the words of Portuguese origin in Aboriginal Australian language discovered by Dr. Carl-Georg von Brandenstein etc. Yes, some historians like Pearson and Richardson have criticized all or part of this evidence. The fact remains that it is is supported by a bunch of writers and/or historians, recent and old. The Australian Minister of Science said about Kenneth McIntyre's book: "I found its central argument... persuasive, if not conclusive." In the 1980's the theory even became part of Australian school history reading lists . I think that's all I will say for now. JCRB (talk) 11:46, 20 October 2010 (UTC) You seem to be making a full time job for yourself trying to promote this obsession of yours. As has clearly been stated above many times, there is no consenus for this information in this article. It's not that hard to understand. Why do you insist on ranting on about it.--Dmol (talk) 11:56, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Can we archive the discussion in one of those blue boxes? --Merbabu (talk) 12:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC) While people keep responding I suspect the discussion will continue. If people stop responding, it will probably be archived forever this time next month. --AussieLegend (talk) 12:15, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Been watching this from the sidelines for a while. My interest in this aspect of Australia's history woud be satisfied with a sentence in the article saying There is some (considerable?) speculation among historians regarding the possibility that earlier European explorers may also have sighted the Australian coastline. Follow it by as many references as people want to add. HiLo48 (talk) 20:16, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Hilo48, thanks for your suggestion. I think "speculation" is an understatement given the sources that back the theory. Perhaps the following is better (blended in the existing paragraph): "Prior to the arrival of Europeans there were sporadic visits by fishermen from the Indonesian archipelago. Depending on the sources, the first European sighting of the Australian mainland is attributed to Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon or to Iberian explorer Luís Vaz de Torres who both sailed the Torres Strait in 1606 . Although Janszoon preceded Torres by a few months, the Dutchman believed he was in New Guinea. Torres sailed between Cape York and Prince of Wales Island but did not land in Australia. An alternative theory suggests that the Portuguese discovered the continent in the early 16th century. In either case, the first recorded European landfall was that of Janszoon who sighted the coast of Cape York in early 1606, and made landfall on 26 February at the Pennefather River on the western shore of Cape York, near the modern town of Weipa..." JCRB (talk) 16:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Im sorry JCRB, but still gives too much weight to a theory, and a theory about an incident that did not greatly affect Australia, if at all. It appearing on a very short summary of Australian history would be WP:UNDUE weight. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Outsiders view...For the Canada (FA article) and History of Canada article (currently updating for GA level) we had a similar problem. That is that many wish to add lots of info about the Portuguese Crown claims and its territorial rights in Canada. We came to a compromise in both articles by simply saying "The extent and nature of Portuguese activity on the Canadian mainland during the 16th century remains unclear and controversial". So was thinking the same could be done here...basically a mention is passing.Moxy (talk) 16:28, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Proposed text Chipmunkdavis, I don't think that short reference to the alternative theory is giving it "too much weight". It's just one sentence. As for the mention of Torres' voyage, I can't think of a much shorter reference. Maybe you prefer the following: "Prior to the arrival of Europeans there were sporadic visits by fishermen from the Indonesian archipelago. The first European sighting of the Australian mainland is attributed to both Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon and to Iberian explorer Luís Vaz de Torres depending on the sources. They both sailed the Torres Strait in 1606 . Although Janszoon preceded Torres by a few months, the Dutchman believed he was in New Guinea. An alternative theory suggests that the Portuguese discovered the continent in the early 16th century . Not taking into account this theory, the first recorded European landfall was that of Janszoon who sighted the coast of Cape York in early 1606, and made landfall on 26 February at the Pennefather River on the western shore of Cape York, near the modern town of Weipa..." JCRB (talk) 14:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC) Absolutely not. You might be content to argue ad nauseam, but you will have proved nothing other than your being a nuisance. Your position has been repeatedly disproved and contradicted. Please take the time to read some of the policy pages referred to you throughout the discussion above. — cj | talk 14:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC) CJ, your attitude is out of line. Please respect other editors. The only "nuisance" is your inability to counter arguments with arguments.JCRB (talk) 11:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC) JCRB - you are on your own here. And it is clear that you have exhausted the patience of the community. Time to walk away from this one. --Merbabu (talk) 12:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Seeking consensus to close discussion

I'd like to formally propose that we close and archive this discussion. It's clearly going nowhere and until such time as it's closed, JCRB is going to keep adding content regardless of the fact that, despite weeks of discussion, there has been no consensus to endorse any of his proposals and plenty of opposition to everything he's suggested. Can we please reach some consensus, otherwise the page is going to be 99.999% pointless discussion, instead of just 92%. --AussieLegend (talk) 14:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Close it down. I'm not even going to give any reasons why, or JCRB will start arguing again.--Dmol (talk) 10:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. CLose it down now. It's already passed the point of disruption. --Merbabu (talk) 10:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Pointless POV-pushing by JCRB which is not benefiting the article in anyway. No point on continuing on the road which takes you to a dead end. Bidgee (talk) 11:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Despite your aggressive opposition and rude comments, and for those of you not interested in this discussion, let me summarize the following:

• So far, this is and has been a constructive discussion. The terms "pointless" or "dead" are obviously inappropriate for a discussion which has advanced since it started:

a) Following a revision of the sources, the Queiros discovery was ruled out.

b) A consensus was reached on the Etymology section.

c) Editor HiLo48 suggested a short mention of the Theory citing a similar discussion and solution in the Canada article, which I clearly support.

• The Theory of Portuguese discovery is supported by a good number of Australian and non-Australian writers, from George Collingridge (1895) to Kenneth McIntyre (1977) which the Australian Minister of Science Barry Jones said he found "persuasive, if not conclusive", Eric B. Whitehouse (1978), Ian McKiggan (1977), Helen Wallis (1981), Fitzgerald (1984) and Peter Trickett (2007), specially his book Beyond Capricorn.
• In the 1980's the theory became part of Australian school history reading lists.
• Despite opposition by other authors, this theory can be considered central to Australian history, if not mainstream.

For all of the above I suggest: first a more constructive, open-minded, and specially polite attitude by some editors, and second, a short mention of this in the history section with a link to the main article. JCRB (talk) 13:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

After much reading on this topic, I have come to discover that even if all the claims are true they did not affect Australia historically. SO realy this info should be added to Portuguese Empire and/or Portuguese discoveries because it had no barring on Australia's history or affected its inhabitants. This topic is more about Portuguese mariners and what they have accomplished rather then Australia. That said the "Theory" should be linked at least in the see also section, unless people think its Content forking. The reason the Canada article does mention this topic is because of accounts of Aboriginal Canadians being kidnapped and taken back to Europe, thus had an affect on the native populations and there oral history. Is there any accounts of any contact between the Portuguese and Aborigines of Australia? Because just seeing the land does not mean there was any influence. Moxy (talk) 15:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Moxy (talk) 15:06, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Moxy, thanks for your comments. The Canadian and Australian case are almost identical. Following your argument that an event with no repercussion on a country's history deserves no mention, then the fact that Aboriginal Canadians were taken back to Portugal should not be included in the Canada article either because this had no influence on Canada's history in any way. Still, there is proof of Portuguese contact with Aboriginal Australians. Dr. Carl-Georg von Brandenstein discovered there are words of Portuguese origin in Aboriginal Australian language which suggests ample contact between both cultures . As for simply "seeing the land", the Portuguese explorers didn't simply see it, they chartered its coastline (see the the Dieppe Maps, and the Cornelius Wytfliet map of 1597). In fact, mathematician Ian McKiggan (1977) made a detailed study of one of the Dieppe Maps and proved it represents the eastern coast of Australia taking into account mathematical corrections in longitudinal errors in early mapping (See page 130 [34]). Again, this is supported by Helen Wallis (1981), Fitzgerald (1984) and Peter Trickett (2007) among others. JCRB (talk) 17:19, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

"Australia has strong international teams in cricket..."

Is this still the case? Given that the men's team is no longer ranked in the top four of the ten "test cricket nations". In addition I note that the criteria used for suggesting that Australia is "strong" at the sport relates to the one day form of the game which many expert commentators is now suggesting is becoming moribund. Silent Billy (talk) 22:16, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, no longer in the top four, but they're still in the top ten, out of the 200 or so countries in the world. Sure, most don't play international cricket, but it's still a pretty strong position. I would draw a parallel with a game like baseball. Beyond the top three or four countries, baseball would be a minor sport, but we would probably still say that the fifth best team is a strong one (out of 200). HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Also, consider that wikipedia is meant to take a long-term view. Australia has for many decades been strong interenational side. A recent fall in form is just that - recent. Perhaps the article wording could be tweaked to something like "long been a strong international team" or similiar. see WP:RECENT. --Merbabu (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm with Merbabu, per RECENT, with a reference that says that Aust has historically been a strong cricket team. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

You guys waste too much of your lunch money YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Formal name of the Monarch. The present Elizabeth is Australia's first Elizabeth, not second.

In the infobox we are told that the Monarch is Elizabeth II. Is this name technically correct? Elizabeth I was never monarch of Australia. The present one is the first Elizabeth who has been monarch of Australia, not the second. HiLo48 (talk) 17:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The present one isn't Elizabeth I one though, she's Elizabeth II, regardless of the fact that she's the first Elizabeth to be our queen. This discussion has been had somewhere but I can't remember where I saw it. I do remember though that Elizabeth II was correct. --AussieLegend (talk) 17:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It would be interesting to see that discussion. It's been during my lifetime that she became formally known as Queen of Australia. I'm not pushing a POV here. I'm sure there would be a formal protocol or something. But it just sort of makes sense to me that that addition of Australia to her title would have made her Queen Elizabeth I of Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 20:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Maybe an initial step would be finding a credible external reference saying that the current Queen is called "Queen Elizabeth I of Australia". Format (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not pushing for a change if the title is right. Just wondering why it is the way that it is. I've done some research and reached List of titles and honours of Queen Elizabeth II. It has a section called Scottish controversy which says "...only in Scotland did the title Elizabeth II cause controversy as there had never been an Elizabeth I in Scotland." A legal case was made, but "lost on the grounds that the pursuers had not title to sue the Crown". All very interesting. I learnt a lot on my way to that point. It's all very complicated. HiLo48 (talk) 07:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)