Talk:Prime Minister of Canada

This & the other Commonweath PM Infoboxes...

...needs to be changed, so that only the office of Governor General is shown as the appointer. This article is about the office of Prime Minister, not the individuals who held it or the individuals who appointed them. GoodDay (talk) 00:34, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. Current prime minister is relevant. Past are as well. Not sure what the exact issue is. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:25, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Agree with GoodDay, it should be about the office. 117Avenue (talk) 04:55, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Infobox again

The previous format seems to have achieved consensus and is standardized across articles while this edit seems to imply that it doesn't. Would like more details on the dispute as it's breaking WP:BRD cycle. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:31, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I just asked the anon at his/her talk page why he/she switched infobox styles at this article and all the others about ministers. The long-used infobox template can, of course, be edited to include any additional information. The arms, however, besides being not directly related to ministerial offices, are copyright protected, anyway. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 19:38, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

The Infobox

It appears Miesianiacal does not agree with the changes I have made to the infobox. He has told me to take it up on the talk page, so I will. I have spent three hours changing every government infobox so it corresponds with all the other political infoboxes on the English Wikipedia. This standard infobox is used by all of the world leaders, government ministers in other countries, and all other government posts. We have the exception of Canada, which I found rather odd. Canada's government ministers are the only one with a different infobox. So, I decided to change them. Miesianiacal reverted me saying that it has to be consistant with the other government infoboxes, and I thought that he simply didn't notice that I changed ALL the other government infoboxes: the cabinet posts and the premiers. But, it seems that he simply doesn't like my change.

Here are my reasons why I think we should change the infobox:

1. Every political infobox on the English Wikipedia uses it

2. They look outdated, and the one I want to replace it with looks (in my opinion) much cleaner

3. It is the standard infobox for all politicians, why does Canada have to be different?

Here are some examples of the infoboxes used across the English Wikipedia:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_the_United_Kingdom

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_for_Foreign_Affairs_%28Australia%29

4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PM_of_India

5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_Defense

6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China

7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_France

And those are just some. Every political infobox is the same.

I thought something like this would be a no brainer, considering I think it's just an update to the old infoboxes and consistancy is important on Wikipedia, obviously I was wrong, so I want to apologize.

So, I'd like to start a discussion. What are people's opinions? 174.7.90.110 (talk) 19:49, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

The infobox style used on articles about Canadian federal and provincial ministries was used on articles about ministries of other countries; at least, it used to be. Whether or not the latter were changed in time isn't of consequence here, anyway; see WP:OTHERSTUFF.

The infobox used on Canadian ministry articles is part of a colour coded series used to aid readers; federal ministries have silver and red bars, provincial ministries have silver and blue. This ties in with the articles on governors - light purple and red for the federal governor general and light purple and blue for provincial lieutenant governors - as well as the articles on monarchy in Canada - deep purple and red for the federal crown and deep purple and blue for the provincial crowns.

As far as appearance goes, what looks best is a matter of personal preference; "I don't like it" isn't a valid justification for an edit. If, though, thre's agreement that something in the long-used infobox should be changed (appearance, content), the change can be made to the template, which will the appear on all articles the template is used in, rather than changing the infobox on every single article. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 20:12, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I realize that there is a colour-coded system, but what I'm saying is that I think we should change all of them, so that they correspond with the other political infoboxes. When I look around Wikipedia, (besides the infoboxes about the monarchies), the only government ministers that use this colour-coded system is Canada, which I then tried to change. I'm willing to change every single one, but of course I'll only do it if there is a consensus. Besides the reason of a colour-coded system, is there any other reason why Canada should be the only country to use this system for their government ministers? 174.7.90.110 (talk) 20:20, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

As I said, other countries' minister infoboxes used to be the same one as used on Canadian minister articles; it was, for example, at Prime Minister of Australia (before you changed it). The monarchy infobox is used on all monarchy articles (see Monarchy of Sweden, Monarchy of the United Kingdom), as is the one for governors (at least, governors of Commonwealth realms; see Governor-General of Jamaica, Governor of New South Wales). I don't know that we're ever going to get consistency right across Wikipedia for ministy articles; there must be hundreds. Keeping it consistent within Canadian articles seems tidy enough. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 20:52, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand, but I think that all the government ministers should have the same infobox as the other political infoboxes across Wikipedia, which there isn't actually that many of them. The examples you selected are all posts related to the monarchies of various countries. I think we should let the monarchies have their own colour-coded system, but update the government ministers, which as I said, there are not too many of them, so they are consistant with all the others across Wikipedia. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 21:01, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. I don't see a value in dispensing with the colour coded infoboxes on Canadian ministry articles, differentiating them from articles on other Canadian government positions/offices, just so they use the same infobox as used on other countries' ministry articles. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:09, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

By the way, I just did a quick survey of about a dozen articles on ministers of finance, foreign affairs, and defence in a range of countries (France, India, United Kingdom, Sweden, Noreway, etc.) and none used an infobox at all. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:14, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

That's not right... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_of_the_Exchequer, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_for_Foreign_and_Commonwealth_Affairs, all UK government positions use them. Also, the following countries have the infobox for government ministers(if you look at the infoboxs of the leaders - prime minister, president, chancellor, etc. - they all use the infobox that I want to be used.)

Australia

United States

Germany

China

EU

Iran

Russia (somewhat)

174.7.90.110 (talk) 21:26, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) See:

Minister of Finance (India), Minister of Finance of Hungary, Minister of Finance (Norway), Minister of the Economy, Industry and Employment (France), Minister of Finance (Japan), Ministry of Finance (Chile), Minister of Finance (Egypt), Ministry of Finance (Greece), Italian Minister of Economy and Finance, Ministry of Finance (Russia), Minister of Finance (Finland), Ministry of Finance (Iceland), Ministry of Finance (Netherlands)

Minister for National Defence (Greece), Ministry of Defence (Netherlands), Minister for Defence (Sweden), Defence Minister of Pakistan, Minister of Defence (Finland), Ministry of Defence (Belgium), Minister of Defence (India), Italian Minister of Defence, Minister of Defense (France), Estonian Minister of Defence, Ministry of National Defence and Sport (Austria), Ministry of National Defense (Chile)

Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Greece), Ministry of Foreign and European Affairs (France), Minister of Foreign Affairs (New Zealand), Minister of Foreign Affairs (Italy), Minister of Foreign Affairs (Hungary), Minister of Foreign Affairs (Pakistan), Minister of Foreign Affairs (Denmark), Minister of Foreign Affairs (Norway)

There are more. Also, while there are indeed ministry articles that use the infobox you prefer, there are others that have an infobox that's neither the one used in Canadian articles or the one you like; refer to all articles on Romanian ministries, for example. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:55, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm content with the status quo. GoodDay (talk) 21:53, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

So, GoodDay, are you saying that you prefer the current infobox over the one I propose? 174.7.90.110 (talk) 21:59, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, as I said before, if you look at all positions of the leaders of all countries, they use the infobox I prefer. Look at all the prime ministers, presidents, chancellors, premiers, etc. of all countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_heads_of_state_and_government ::174.7.90.110 (talk) 22:04, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I checked them over & I understand your consistency argument. I'm just not certain it's worth the hassle. GoodDay (talk) 22:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

The thing is, when you look at all the government ministers (not the monarch related positions) there aren't that many of them to change. I've already changed most of them, before Miesianiacal stopped me. I only have about six more to do on the Australian government ministers, and that is it. The hassle would be all mine, and I if I get a consensus to do it, I would be fine with doing it all myself. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 22:11, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm surprised you've changed the Australian infoboxes. The Aussie editors are usually quite protective of articles related to their country. Anyways, I won't revert your changes nor will I revert Mies' reverts. I don't get too involved with disputes anymore - having went through a RFC/U, will have that effect. GoodDay (talk) 22:15, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Alright. Thanks for your input. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 22:18, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

No prob ;) GoodDay (talk) 22:25, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (Always with GoodDay!!!) Anon, you made it sound as though there was consistency across all articles on ministries and the Canadian ones were the only odd ones out. I've demonstrated that such is not the case at all; there is no consistency. Some use an infobox, some don't, some of those that do use different ones than others. So, it's safe to say that the consistency with other articles argument is moot. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:31, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

No, that's not what I said. There may be a variation of some government ministers not using an infobox, or using the infobox I prefer, or in your historical example, using a different infobox all together, BUT if you look at all heads of state and government, EXCEPT Canada and Australia, (which I changed), they all have the infobox that I prefer. That is one of my consistancy arguments. The other is that I think we should lave the colour-coded system JUST for the monarchies, and make sure the premiers, government ministers in Canada have the same infobox as the other government ministers that do have an infobox. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 22:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Was asked to comment here - I also think the old version better - that said why don't we have the same template for all "commonwealth nations"?Moxy (talk) 22:35, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

That would mean changing a lot of other infoboxes, like the one on the British Prime Minister, Indian Prime Minister, etc. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 22:40, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I guess its just to hard - because I would guess each country has there own standards for there articles.Moxy (talk) 22:43, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I just want to know, Moxy, what do you prefer in the old infobox, over the one that most political positions use? 174.7.90.110 (talk) 22:45, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

They have the same info so the only way to judge them is by looks - I would have to say the old one is better - only because I think the coat of arms was way to big in the new version. However I do like the new layout, because I am not a fan of the to color lines under the title "Prime Minister of Canada", as the contrast does not meet our basic standers for color contrasts (My wife is color blind and she say's she sees no words in the 2 colored strips (see WP:CONTRAST). ALSO - File:Coat of arms of Canada.svg is copyrighted not sure we can even use it in this fashion.Moxy (talk) 22:56, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay, well, if I remove the Coat of Arms and replace it with the Office of the Prime Minister logo, does that mean I can get your support on this? 174.7.90.110 (talk) 22:58, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

(ec)That would be a yes - BUT and a big butt at that, at this point we would need more involed before you (or me) move ahead with any changes, because the removal of the old one has been contested by a few editors. I will be honest - this will likely evolve into a long debate - if your up for it - all you have to do is prove your points and it may happen in time. Thus far here in this talk we have all good civil editors so the conversation should progress in the same manner if "YOU" are willing, because its you that will have to convince people. My only suggestion to improve the current version is to fix the color bars so all can read the text in them.Moxy (talk) 23:09, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Anon, your words: "This standard infobox is used by all of the world leaders, government ministers in other countries, and all other government posts. We have the exception of Canada..." Now you've changed it to "all articles on heads of state and government except Canada's use this infobox" (I'll assume you've just temporarily forgotten that monarchs are heads of state and their articles don't use your preferred infobox). But, that wasn't the case before you edited the articles on the Australian and New Zealand prime ministers. Plus, there are articles on heads of state and government that don't use the infobox; see Prime Minister of Afghanistan, Prime Minister of Algeria, Prime Minister of Angola, Chief Minister of Anguilla, Prime Minister of Antigua and Barbuda, Prime Minister of Armenia, Prime Minister of Aruba, Prime Minister of Azerbaijan, Prime Minister of Barbados, Prime Minister of Belarus, Prime Minister of Bhutan, Chairman of the Council of Ministers of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Prime Minister of Bulgaria, Prime Minister of the Cook Islands, Prime Minister of the Czech Republic, Prime Minister of Georgia, Prime Minister of Iceland, Prime Minister of Jamaica, Prime Minister of Jordan, Prime Minister of Latvia, etc., etc. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 23:12, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Um... no. First off, when I said heads of state and heads of government, I was NOT including the monarchs, as I said before, if you DO NOT count the monarchs, you can clearly see that they all use the infobox I prefer. Second, every single ony of your examples either doesn't have an infobox because no one implemented it or they in fact DO HAVE my prefered infobox. For example, we have Prime Minister of Barbados and Prime Minister of Bulgaria. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 23:23, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Question what is the most used one (before any recent changes) ? As Wikipedia:CONSISTENCY is something to be considered here and WP:TIES - PS WP:OTHERSTUFF an essay does not apply here (its for deletion).Moxy (talk)

I am certain that the most used infobox template is the one I am proposing. If you look at various world leaders, (not monarchs) they all use the new template except Australia, New Zealand and Canada (I did change Australia and New Zealand and so far they seem to be okay with it). 174.7.90.110 (talk) 23:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC) You can see what I am saying by looking at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_heads_of_state_and_government. The monarchs are the only one with the old template. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 23:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I feel that infoboxes for people and places are one of the things that should be standardized across the encyclopedia. However, I think that Template:Infobox minister office looks nicer than Template:Infobox Political post. Is there any chance we can consensus to add the coloured bars, smaller portrait, and section breaks into the later template? —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 23:05, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't changing the standard infobox by adding the coloured bars still create the problem of inconsistancy across Wikipedia? 174.7.90.110 (talk) 23:23, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I might be commenting too late, but I think Infobox Political post is better. I see no need to colour code the ministries, and it does produce a CONTRAST issue. Infobox Political post looks more how an infobox should look, and includes fields for an emblem, and incumbent since. I think we should move to this to be consistent, and get rid of these silly colours. 117Avenue (talk) 01:17, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

You're not late at all. Thank you for your comment. I'm glad that people are starting to see the issues that I have with this infobox. I mean, there are a number of issues with this infobox, including the contrast issue, but for me at least, the main problem I have is that it's not consistant with the other infoboxes all across Wikipedia. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 01:40, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

There is no consistent use of infoboxes across Wikipedia. This fact has been demonstrated to you with tangible evidence. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:14, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

There absolutely is. The infobox I prefer is the one used by almost all political officies that do have an infobox. The only exceptions are the monarchs (which I don't count as political figures) and Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, (which I changed Australia and New Zealand and they seem to be fine with the change). That leaves out Canada. That fact can be clearly demonstrated by the link I provided above that looks at heads of state and heads of government. And by the way, if you only look at heads of government, it's very hard to find one that has an infobox and does not use the one I prefer. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 17:24, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is the link again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_heads_of_state_and_government 174.7.90.110 (talk) 17:30, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

So, not all political office articles have infoboxes, and of those that do, not all, just most, use the same one. As I said: inconsistent. Canada, therefore, isn't "left out" of anything except maybe the majority of articles that use infoboxes. But, even if that is the case, so what? We have an infobox system that works and has been accepted for years. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:37, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

And it's been accepted for too long. I'm glad you have finally admitted that the majority of of articles that have an infobox use the one I prefer. Consistancy is very important on Wikipedia, and I think it's time that Canada joins the rest of Wikipedia in implementing an updated infobox that does have the number of issues brought up above by me and other users. I think the choice is very clear: we need to have a consistancy across Wikipedia, and the only way to do it (and it would be an improvement) would be to change the infobox to the standard political infobox used across Wikipedia. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 18:16, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'm all for consistency, but I think that this is going to turn into a popularity contest of sorts: which infobox is favoured by the most editors? To settle that, I think you're going to have to take this discussion to another, larger forum, and get a lot of input. WP:CANADA might be a place to start. What happens after that depends on what the majority of Canadian editors want. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:27, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I disagree that this should be a question of which is liked better; I think that being standardized provides more atheistic benefit than looking nicer.. In my opinion, the default should be standardized infoboxes and that we should only use a different one if (1) the standardized one lacks a feature that would provide important encyclopedic information for Canada, and (2) that feature cannot be or won't be implemented in the standardized template. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 20:13, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I meant which infobox is used consistently will be decided by which is liked better. On the other hand, there could be some hybrid of the two. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 00:34, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that is an excellent point. In this case, it is clear that the political infobox (my preference) is the standardized one used across Wikipedia. And the exceptions do not apply here because not only does the standardized infobox provide the same information as the old one, but it provives EVEN MORE information.

This reason, along with the fact that (in my opinion and others) the standard infobox looks better and does not have any colour contrast issues, make the choice very clear. Now, Miesianiacal, is it possible that with the level of support for the change, you can allow me to change these infoboxes? I'm new here, so I do want to know: does it look like a consensus has been reached? 174.7.90.110 (talk) 22:10, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

You do not have consensus. Please see WP:CON. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 00:34, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, from what I see, there are four (including me) who support the change, and one who doesn't: you. That may not be a consensus, but I think it shows the level of support is high. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 00:44, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I see only one other user firmly in favour of your proposal. I also don't believe this is a decision to be made between only five editors. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 00:49, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Question? You talking about this one page or all pages? Because if you/we are talking about all of them we here are a small group (see WP:LOCALCONSENSUS). If you are talking about them all you should ask for more input before changing them (see Wikipedia:Requests for comment). The process to ask for more input is actually very easy (its automated) see this. Plus is there consensus here yet?Moxy (talk) 23:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'm talking about all the pages for Canada. You see, I've already changed the infoboxes for the Australian prime minister and the New Zealand prime minister, and people seem to be fine with the change. The Cabinet of Australia already has been updated to the new infobox by someone else a long time ago, and the New Zealand Cabinet doesn't have any infoboxes. The rest of the heads of state and government ALL accross Wikipedia (not including the monarchs, which I DO NOT want to change because they are not political figures), already have the same infobox, which is the new one I am proposing. The only infoboxes that need to be changed are that of the Cabinet of Canada and the prime minister of Canada. So, the only changes that would be made would be to Canadian political offices, so they match the political offices all across Wikipedia. The change ONLY applies to Canada, no one else. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 00:25, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Why do you want to only have the infoboxes for political offices look the same? I thought you were seeking consistency in appearance. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 00:51, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, first off, I wanted the political offices to have consistantcy considering the infobox template is called "political office", so I didn't find it appropiate to also change the monarchies' infoboxes. Second, if we were to include the infoboxes of the monarchies, then this discussion would have to include users from Australia, Norway, Denmark, Japan, and anywhere else that a monarchy is present. It would get just too big. The thing is however, when you look at the government leaders (i.e. NOT the monarch) infoboxes of each of the countries I have mentioned, they all use the infobox I prefer. I absolutely want consistancy, but I want consistancy for all political offices. The monarchies can have their own infobox because if we tried to change that, the dicussion would have to include WAY too many countries. 174.7.90.110 (talk) 01:04, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm even less in favour of the idea now, then. The infobox used here is part of a series themed in such a way as to differentiate different types of government office while also graphically linking together all articles on government posts, which sovereigns and her governors are. I think it would be rather odd to have colour coded boxes on monarch and viceroy articles but the articles about ministries using something completely different. Again, I'm open to some kind of hybrid. But, also again, I believe this discussion is going to have to move to a bigger forum. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 01:13, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

That "series" where the government ministers and the monarchs and their viceroys use the same template only includes Canada... We should make it consistant with all the other articles on Wikipedia. What you're saying means you think what Australia, Denmark, Norway, Japan, the United Kingdom, among others is "odd". Every single one of them have their monarchs using your prefered template and their heads of government, using the template I am proposing. Why should Canada be left alone? And why would it be "odd" for Canada to do this when all the others are doing the same thing, and it looks perfectly fine...? 174.7.90.110 (talk) 01:21, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

What looks "odd" or "fine" is obviously a matter of personal opinion. I was only expressing mine. I've no idea what motivated Australian, New Zealand, or other editors to do what they did; I do personally think it's messy, though and could be improved one way or another.

I'm intrigued to think if there's a way to merge the coding - whether coloured or not - into the political office infobox you prefer. The ones for monarchs and viceroys could then be changed accordingly. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 01:25, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Although I prefer they simply be changed to the standard infobox so they truly are consistant, I am willing to accept your proposal because that would ensure that the infobox template , would be the same everywhere, but it would adhere to the coding you like on the old infobox. I'm not someone who can do that, however. Are you experienced enough with this kind of stuff to do it? 174.7.90.110 (talk) 01:32, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I mean to have the template appear to be part of the same series everywhere; presidents with one indicator, prime ministers with another, federal, provincial, and state, etc. I might be able to that, yes. But, a discussion will have to be had first at Template talk:Infobox political post. Further, there might be objections from those who edit the monarchy articles (though I doubt there'd be much protest).

Alternately, all coding is obliterated from all infoboxes, for everyone: politicians, monarchs, viceroys alike. I think that would be a loss, though.

Fixing what you perceive to be mess is just going to create what others might perceive to be other messes, I'm afraid. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 01:53, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, then I think the easiest way to resolve this is simply to do what I proposed. If you are willing to withdraw your objection and be okay with it looking "odd" to you, then this whole thing would be delt with. Is there any way you can withdraw your objection. I mean, it's not like you are deeply opposed to it, right? You just think it would look odd. So in the name of consistancy and as a favour to a new editor, do you think you could let me do this? I'd greatly appreciate it... 174.7.90.110 (talk) 02:13, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

My objection stands; I am quite deeply opposed to it. If you can get consensus at WP:CANADA, I'll have no choice but to concede, of course. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 02:27, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I, for one, would support the standardized infobox having some quick reference colour or icon to show if the person is monarch or elected, executive or legislative, national or regional. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 02:52, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you think we could win over hearts and minds at Template talk:Infobox political post, though? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 02:54, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

You know what, the more that I think about this, the more I want to go through with changing the actual template. A reference colour or icon to show the type of office would be informative to everyone on Wikipedia and would solve our problem, and it would solve the consistency issue because it would be the infobox for all offices on Wikipedia. I know this is going to be a rough road and considering it involves all of Wikipedia, it is going to take a long time to reach a consensus, but I'm up for it! Are you guys in? 174.7.90.110 (talk) 03:17, 6 February 2012 (UTC)