Talk:Ashkenazi Jews

Once and for all, should Sholem Aleichem and Mikhail Botvinnik be in the collage?

Sholem Aleichem and Mikhail Botvinnik had been in the collage for many month, but Avaya1 reverts it to the "old consensus" which didn't have Sholem Aleichem or Mikhail Botvinnik (it had John von Neumann and George Gershwin instead).

Lets, once and for all, answer the questions:

• Should Sholem Aleichem be in the collage (or should John von Neumann or George Gershwin be instead of him).
• Should Mikhail Botvinnik be in the collage (or should John von Neumann or George Gershwin be instead of him).

Please state here what you think about who should be in the collage! 90.196.60.197 (talk) 15:49, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yes to Sholem Aleichem. Yes to Mikhail Botvinnik. The reason Sholem Aleichem should be in the image, as many already stated on this page, is due to the fact Yiddish is the language of Ashkenazi Jews, and Sholem Aleichem is the biggest name in Yiddish literature ever. Botvinnik should be in the image is to represent the Jewish achievements in chess, and to give more equal representation to Jews with east-European ancestry (who are underrepresented in this collage, in my opinion). 90.196.60.197 (talk) 15:49, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• I guess yes(for both). But in Wikiepdia, I think the only way this can be decided is by first establishing criteria for inclusion in the collage. For instance, currently the collage includes Golda Meir but not David Ben Gurion nor Haim Weizman, arguably two most important figures 20th century Jewish history. And what about Trotsky? Not a practicing Jew, but an Ashkenazi Jew nonetheless. Ultimately, it is impossible to compare apple and oranges, and thus the choice will always be somewhat arbitrary. Not sure how to approach this. - BorisG (talk) 16:40, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree about the idea to include Trotsky! I think Golda Meir was included over Ben Gurion to give more representation to women. I agree more changes should be done, but I think we should leave it for the next vote just not to confuse too many things together. I think the criteria is to give as much representation as possible to Jews in different areas. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 17:39, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

You mean 'different areas' of human endevour or different geographical areas/countries? Or both? - BorisG (talk) 17:51, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Both. Sholem Aleichem is important to give representation to the Yiddish culture, Botvinnik is notable because of his achievements in chess, but he also will help increase the representation of the East European Jews. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 19:11, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yes to Sholem Aleichem to both and Mikhail Botvinnik. Strong NO to Trotsky. Sholem Aleichem is distinguish Jewish author who described in his books the Jewish life in exile with focus on the Ashkenazim diaspora in which he grew-no many other represent Ashkenazim more than he does. Mikhail Botvinnik is fantastic example for the distinguish achievements of Jewish people in chess, mainly of Jews from east Europe, Trotsky was by no doubt Jewish, by no doubt Ashkenazi-but like Marx he alienate himself from Judaism, therefore not the typical successful candidate to be included in the collage. We need candidates that can easily attract large consensus. --85.64.90.2 (talk) 18:25, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• No and I don't understand why you want to over-turn a selection that had a massive consensus behind it, from many different members, after months of discussion. It's also important to represent one mathematician, whereas we already have many writers in the consensus-selection.Avaya1 (talk) 20:32, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Because you can't not have a representative of the Yiddish culture, and all the people who commented so far agree that Sholem Aleichem has to be in the collage. I don't agree that we have to have at least one mathematician, as long as you have representatives of the exact sciences (which we have plenty) its fine. I think it's more important to have a representative of the Yiddish culture (Sholem Aleichem), and of the Jewish achievements in chess (Botvinnik). I looked at the archive, and the old selection had far from "massive consensus behind it". In fact, you can see numerous times after that "consensus" many people brought up and objected the fact Sholem Aleichem wasn't there. For close to half a year Sholem Aleichem was in the collage, and so was Botvinnik, but then "suddenly" you decided it's "against the consensus" and started reverting it. So here we are, trying to find out what the real consensus is. People have a right to reach a new consensus, and decide to change things. Wikipedia is not "few guys in 2008 decided on something and from now one nothing can be done". Also, it's not about changing the whole old selection, but it is about doing two modifications to improve the collage (modifications which are not even new because they lasted here for half a year). 90.196.60.197 (talk) 20:39, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

If you wish to include a Yiddish writer, then it makes sense to replace him/her with another writer. I don't understand why you wish to remove the only mathematician. There also has to be a consensus before you change the current selection. This selection was reached after months of discussion between many members. The main criteria we found was to represent a range of different occupations. Avaya1 (talk) 20:42, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Because you don't have much writers here, and the writers here are too notable and from different genres to replace. The exact science are represented well enough. Besides, I wasn't the one who decided to do the change, it was here for around half a year, resulting in a situation we have two different collages with a revert war (with you reverting to the old version). After that discussion we will understand which is the correct one, and then you are welcome to suggest other changes, that's what talk pages are for. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 20:48, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrate? That's what you don't get, just because you were here long doesn't mean you have more authority then others in the group. It's not about you and your friend "arbitrating" the others, it's about a constructive discussion meant to make the collage better. You didn't answer the question, does it seem reasonable Sholem Aleichem is not in the collage, after his name was brought up so many times on the talk page in that context? It's not about "arbitrating", it's about discussing and finding the right consensus. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 20:51, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

He's the admin who usually monitors this article. It's fine to include Aleichem, but first you need a consensus for including him. You also have to explain why you're choosing the other photos to remove, rather than just deciding who you wanted to remove on your whim. As for mathematicians, von Neumann is the only one there. I don't understand why you are talking about exact sciences, since mathematics is not an exact science or part of science, although von Neumann also contributed to the sciences. Avaya1 (talk) 21:02, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah but to be fair isn't it better to call a neutral admin who never picked a side in such debates on this page? I agree about the idea to achieve a consensus, that's why I started this discussion. I wasn't the one who decided who to remove and who to put, I started the debate here between the 2 collages which were "competing" in the first place. Whenever you look at revert wars here, it was always between the old version and the new version which had been here for half a year. I think after we decide which one of those 2 collages to use, then we could discuss other changes. Right now it's about deciding which collage is the consensus one, and afterwards if you or anyone else wants you can discuss other changes. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 06:19, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yes to Sholem Aleichem. For all the talk about Yiddish in the article, Yiddish authors are - noticeably - almost completely absent from the collage (the collage shows mostly German writers). More Yiddish writers should be added, including Nobel prize winning Yiddish author Isaac Bashevis Singer. The priority of the collage should be to represent the "traditional Yiddish language of Ashkenazi Jewry" that is talked about so much in the article. (and perhaps to show such world-renown geniuses such as Freud, Einstein, and Marx)Jimhoward72 (talk) 23:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Can't say much about Botvinnik and his contribution in Jewish culture, but can definitely confirm that Sholem Aleichem not only greatly contributed into development of the Jewish literature, but also was an inspiration to many other Jewish people of the Russian Empire among which is Mark Warshawski. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 00:15, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

That's so true! Sholem Aleichem is THE Jewish writer, and for many when thinking about Jewish literature his name will be the first to come to their head. At the end of the day, I can't think of any other writer who was writing entirely about Jewish themes, but his plays were shown all over the world in different languages and people of different races and religions going to see them. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 06:23, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yes to Sholom Aleichem, for the reason mentioned by all, that he is the Yiddish writer. No to Trotsky for the reason mention by 85.64.90.2. Perhaps have George Gershwin instead of Botvinnik, and that would be a compromise version. Debresser (talk) 19:52, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

As much as I prefer Botvinnik to von Neumann or George Gershwin, if I would have to choose between von Neumann and Gershwin I would also choose Gershvin. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 20:01, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand why you think that you can choose that we have to replace either Gershwin or von Neumann. I don't see the justification for removing these two particular figures, except your arbitary preferences. Why are we supposed to remove them? My view on Aleichem is that given that Aleichem is already in the infobox for Jews, I don't think there is a need for him to be in another infobox. However if we want him in, it surely makes more sense to replace him for another writer. Avaya1 (talk) 03:50, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The key in your sentence is "my view is", and you have to remember it's your view, and as you can see from this discussion it doesn't represent the majority view. No one said if someone is at Jews he can't be at Ashkenazi Jews. The fact is, Yiddish is the language of the Ashkenazi Jews and Sholem Aleichem is the biggest name in Yiddish culture. I didn't replace them, it was done ages ago, that's what it was for half a year. People here clearly showed what is the collage they prefer, and it's the one with Sholem Aleichem and Botvinnik. After that discussion finishes you are welcome to open a new one about putting Gershwin on von Neumann instead of someone else. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 06:48, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• In the past, editors here have generally tried to include well-known individuals (and typically exemplary ones), and also tried to ensure a broad cross-section of professions. By those standards, Gershwin would likely be the most famous, and von Neumann would remain the only mathematician. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:04, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

That's far from being "most likely", when you see what others commented here :-) As you can see, people don't really care about having or not having a mathematician in the collage, which makes sense because why a mathematician? Why not chemist? And about Gershvin... people outside America don't know him. As it was said before, you can't not have Sholem Aleichem in the image, and so far most people were favorable of Botvinnik. It's not a dictatorship so you have to except a consensus. As I said before, we need a neutral administrator to arbitrate the discussion and not one which the archive pages clearly show has strong personal opinions which prevent him from being neutral. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 06:48, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

You're right, this isn't a dictatorship, which is why I recommend you wait for a consensus to develop, rather than trying to edit-war in your preferences. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:57, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

It's funny now you have something to say after not showing up at the dispute resolution discussion. The consensus is already clear from the discussion. Big Yes for Sholem Aleichem (want to argue with that?), and most people supported Botvinnik in. Very few supported Gershwin in, and even less supported Von Neumann (in fact, only you and Avaya1). 90.196.60.197 (talk) 07:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• Sholem Aleichem should be the first one to enter the collage. No one will argue with the fact von Neumann is a great scientist, but he is not as known as other scientists in the selection. He is quite controversial for his part in developing the atomic bomb and for his call to use it against the Soviet Union and any country which wasn’t an ally of the US. Von Neumann is a bad selection just like Trotsky because of his controversial views. About Botvinnik I think it’s good to have him in because Jews achieved a lot in chess and he was very famous at the time. Gershwin is great but we already have Mahler in the selection so the musical field is already represented. PC poet robot (talk) 09:29, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Avaya1, can you please stop your silly revert war? The consensus is clear from this discussion, Sholem Aleichem obviously stays, Botvinnik also stays. Also, after your party didn't show up to the dispute resolution I would expect you to keep your head down a bit (and please don't try to say you didn't see the invitation, from your "contributions history" you were clearly editing other articles at that time on Wikipedia). Be decent and respect the consensus. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 19:54, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

There's certainly support for Sholem Aleichem, but not for removing the other choices, and certainly not for Botvinnik. As for the new user above called "PC poet robot", he is surely a sock-puppet of yours (from looking at his edit-history - what are the chances that a new editor would register to wikipedia especially for this page, and then in less than a dozen edits support you on both the talk page of this article and the 1895 World Championship article)? A request for comment would be better - but the question has to be neutral as to who we want to swap for who, rather than being arbitrarily decided by you that two figures have to be swapped for another two (that you arbitrarily chose for removal). Avaya1 (talk) 20:42, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Most people clearly said they want Botvinnik in. If they would want Gershvin or Von Neumann in, all those people would say so, but they didn't. All I can recommend for you is to start another discussion, asking weather to include Gershvin and/or Van Neumann, and instead of who. The fact is, Botvinnik is the representative of Jewish success in Chess, and Sholem Aleichem is a representative of Yiddish culture and got ultimate support. Seriously, start a new discussion on the topic and it will be much more effective. People do respond to those stuff at the end of the day and results are achieved. "Should Gershvin and Von Neumann be in the selection, and instead of who?" I personally wouldn't mind replacing Bernstein for Gershvin, though don't think Von Neumann should be in it at all, but it's not up to me to decide! 90.196.60.197 (talk) 07:57, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you show which editors have "clearly said they want Botvinnik in", using diffs? I haven't seen that here yet, but perhaps I have missed the posts. Also, regarding your statement that "If they would want Gershvin or Von Neumann in, all those people would say so, but they didn't", please review argument from ignorance, argument from silence, and Wikipedia:Silence means nothing. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:57, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Look up and read. How many people said Botvinnik in? Not how many said Gershwin in or Von Neumann in? Good, solves it. Arguments were brought up against Von Neumann being to controversial here in the first place. I suggested to Avaya1 on his wall to start a new discussion: Gershwin, Bernstein, Von Neumann, Botvinnik, which 2 should be in the collage? And then see what people say. Ask Avaya1 why he still didn't do that, that would answer a lot of questions. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 07:54, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yes to Sholem Aleichem and Gershwin, and to Botvinnik if there is room.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:41, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Which 2 people should be in the collage - Botvinnik, Gershwin, Bernstein, Von Neumann

Just to calm Avaya1 and Jayig ones and for all. Which 2 people out of the following 4 do you think should be in the collage (after we already established Sholem Aleichem is definitely in in the previous discussion):

• Mikhail Botvinnik
• Leonard Bernstein
• George Gershwin
• John von Neumann

Please write which 2 should be in the collage and write a comment explaining why you think so! 90.196.60.197 (talk) 08:04, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yes to Botvinnik, as a representative of Jewish success in chess and to give more representation to Jews from Eastern Europe. Yes to Bernstein simply because him and Gershwin are composers but in my opinion Bernstein is better known. Big NO to Von Neumann, as it was pointed out in the discussion on top the guy advocated use of nuclear weapon, or in other words supporting mass murder on innocent people. He was proud of the atomic bombs dropped over Japan and he wanted the same done to the Soviet Union, so big No to Von Neumann. Besides, we already have representatives of the exact sciences. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 08:04, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd also choose Bernstein over Gershwin. No opinion on the other two. Debresser (talk) 10:13, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

If there is so much difficulty to be found in choosing Bernstein vs. Gershwin, perhaps an alterative Ashkenazi musician may serve as a compromise. Would any one of the following garner more acceptance:

• Vladimir Horowitz
• Emanuel Ax
• Victor Borge
• Yehudi Menuhin
• Itzhak Perlman
• Jascha Heifetz
• Pinchas Zukerman
• Bronisław Huberman
• Arnold Schoenberg
• Aaron Copland
• Billy Joel (for what it's worth :) )
• Beverly Sills (I don't think Robert Merrill rates as highly, personally)
• Jacques Offenbach
• Georg Solti

-- Avi (talk) 17:39, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you there are musicians which deserve to be in the collage more, like Bob Dylan or Vladimir Horowitz. I think though we should stick to those name which were already discussed extensively in the past, simply to avoid the discussion becoming to big. But common sense is with you in this one. PS Great taste in music! 90.196.60.197 (talk) 18:56, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• I vote for Sholem Aleichem, Leonard Bernstein (certainly over Gershwin), and Mikhail Botvinnik. Definitely no to von Neumann. This is a matter of historic sense and aesthetic balance, and both are subjective opinions. But this is my vote on this dispute, in any case. warshy^¥¥ 17:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Sholem Aleichem is for sure already in per previous discussion, but I agree with you 100% about all the rest said. I don't see how anyone can seriously promote Von Neumann, that's one guy that if you would give him to rule America for a day would cause more death and destruction that anyone before him in human history. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 18:56, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• I don't really care if Gershwin or Bernstein are in, though Bernstein is more famous. I am against von Neumann even being considered as one of the people representing Ashkenazi Jews. As it was said earlier, the guy is not that famous for most people and those who do know about him usually have a negative opinion due to his support of nuclear weapons (which if anything is embarassing for us Jews). I think Botvinnik is a good idea to represent Jews in chess. 81.171.159.172 (talk) 12:25, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• Is the voting here restricted restricted to the four individuals at the top? Botvinnik would be fine, as far as I'm concerned. As for musicians, I think Mahler and Schoenberg are head and shoulders above Bernstein and Gershwin. Toccata quarta (talk) 17:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd be happy to consider someone new, for what it is worth. -- Avi (talk) 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree about Mahlr and Schoenberg (Mahler is already in). I wouldn't say it's restricted to those 4 individuals. I just named those 4 because their names were brought up in previous discussions and to keep the discussion simple and not to too wide, though obviously if many people will suggest someone whose not on the list he'll be in. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 19:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

STOP REVERTING please

I'm probably not involved enough and could lock this page myself, but it will be pretty easy to get m:The Wrong Version locked until y'all can come up with a decision. I'd rather not need to have this locked, but… -- Avi (talk) 20:11, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't think there should be an issue, the two discussions above clearly show what people support and what is "the right version". I don't think there should be more reverting. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 20:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Lise Meitner

Why Lise Meitner picture is in the articale As an adult, she converted to Christianity, following Lutheranism, and being baptized in 1908.

It doesn't change the fact she was ethnically Jewish, and the article talks about Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group and not as a religion (for that go to Judaism). 90.196.60.197 (talk) 13:17, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

The openning was written by antisemites. It contradicts the main article.

The Ashkenazim(the use of Ashkenazis is a slur) trace themselves to the People of Israel not to the mystorious Kzhars. 132.64.218.139 (talk) 23:31, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree! I reverted it, but I find it a joke it survived here for so long. I read a lot about the Khazars and I personally wish Ashkenazi Jews did have some Khazarian blood, but the fact is, genetic studies proved Ashkenazi Jews came from Israel and have nothing to do with the Khazars. 90.196.60.197 (talk) 13:20, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

The edits he made were quite disgusting. He will be brought before an administrator if he restores the content in question.Evildoer187 (talk) 23:12, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I looked at his edit history, I don't think the guy is mentally stable. He deletes known proven facts and puts made up stuff which don't make any sense. He did the same thing on Saladin where he deleted the fact he's Kurdish and wrote he's Turkic. It's just weird! 90.196.60.197 (talk) 07:04, 9 June 2013 (UTC)