Talk:Pablo Casals

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Please note: Before making any further proposals to changing the name of this article from Pablo Casals to Pau Casals, please read the following article on why the article is so named: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names) Thank you. --Technopat (talk) 23:10, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

It should be moved to Pau Casals--83.60.62.39 (talk) 19:09, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

After a exhaustive research, I changed the link of the El Vendrell to the current because they are using this.

I searched the name in a Catalan Encyclopedia, and I find that his birth name was Pau Casals i Defilló. If you don't belive me I can scan the page of that Encyclopedia. Jacquard2 09:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Resulta que per que canviïn la pàgina de pablo a Pau, s'ha de demanar formalment. El que cal fer és demanar-ho en massa per tal que ens escoltin. Però, no obstant, hi ha un problema, el bibliotecari que porta el tema ha arguït que no el canvia ja que buscant pel google veu que Pablo té uns resultats de cent i pico mil pàgines mentres que Pau, només en té menys de la meitat de l'altre. Jacquard2 19:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I've added back the "Pablo" version of his name - it is very common in English speaking countries, and as we're dealing with an article in English here, it has to be mentioned. In fact, I'm pretty sure that "Pablo" is more common than "Pau" in English, meaning the article really ought to live at Pablo Casals - I'll leave it for the time being, however. --Camembert

Yes, all the examples I've seen of printed references and labels of his phonograph records for most of his career, both in the USA and Latin America, exclusively refer to him as "Pablo Casals". Pau may have been his real name, but professionally in many countries he was well known as "Pablo". -- Infrogmation 17:45 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I have been reading his live in a Catalan Enciclopedia, and I noticed that his real name was PAU CASALS i DEFILLÓ, not pablo carlos salvador casls i defilló.

I've decided to move it here, to "Pablo" (at last). --Camembert

Camember, your imposition is an abuse! You are disrespectful with Pau Casals, you do not respect the natural and original name of a person, nor you respect her memory, the memory of somebody who struggled for the freedom of the people and received the medal of the peace of the ONU. He spoke to the ONU in the year 1971, where was received like Pau Casals. This man who for the fascist dictatorship (I do not speak about you, camember) of Franco had to run away from her Catalonia and went exile himself, this Spanish dictatorship that so much hatred sowed against the Catalans. I claim Pau Casals for her name, I claim Pau Casals that he composed the hymn of the ONU, I claim Pau Casals that he struggled for the Freedom and the Peace, which never accepted the IMPOSITION. Camember, your imposition is an abuse!

His name wasn't Pablo but Pau. It's easy as that. I know about his live and I'm sure that this mistake would offend him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Great Mike (talk • contribs) 12:43, 8 August 2006 .

The title should be moved back to Pau Casals, because it was his true name, and because it was his wish to be known by that name. I fail to see how there can be an arguent when Pau himself settled the matter. As I see it, this case is analogous to Bombay redirecting to Mumbai and others similar (see lenghty discussions, votings and agreed policies). --RR' 23:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The discussion has been going on for years, often emotionally. References would help, for example pointers to writings by Casals himself stating his own wishes about his name. Thank you, -- Infrogmation 00:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Please could you post here his own wishes to be called pablo against pau?

The Discussion of if it is Pau or Pablo, has finished in the wikipedia française they decided that the birth name is the name that he prefered. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pau_Casals --¿No querías caldo? Pues toma tres tazas.

Logic tells us that the name he performed and recorded under is more likely to be the name he preferred to use in his public life rather than the name he was given at birth. The English-language encyclopedia article must give the name he was most known as in English, of course giving his birthname in a prominent place on the header. Many, if not most musicians (and many other prominent figures in history) are known by names other than their birthnames and the Wikipedia articles are clear on that. --Technopat (talk) 10:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Why can't the editor of this page understand that the title of a person must use the real name. Other common nicknames should only be used to redirect users to the real name. That is the purpose of an enciclopedia isn't it? Or, should the L.A. Lakers Catalan basketball player, Pau Gasol, should be also be titled as "Pablo"? Pablo is a Spanish name and Pau is a Catalan name. Of course that in the United States are more people with Spanish names (most common), but that should not be an argument to hide other less-common names. Please, lets respect all cultures. Visca el Barça i Visca Catalunya :) --Xavier Castellà —Preceding undated comment added 23:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC).

Casals was known in the English-speaking world as Pablo - as documented in several places on this page and in the article itself - well before Franco arrived on the scene. If documented evidence is presented that Casals was born Pau - and to date no-one has presented such evidence - it would certainly be interesting, but again irrelevant. The English Wikipedia article entry must be the name by which an artist is most well-known, and giving prominent position - as the article does - to the person's full name in whatever language corresponds to his/her birthplace, etc.

As far as I know, no-one has ever referred to Gasol as Pablo, so it is again irrelevant.

It has nothing to do with respecting all cultures, it's a simple matter of making an encyclopedia entry easy to find. Try finding a famous person in the original version of Chinese, Farsi or any other language and you will understand why.--Technopat (talk) 00:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

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How long did Pablo live in Puerto Rico? -- Antonio 100 percent Boricuaaaaaaaaaaaa!! Martin

From 1956 up to his death in 1973, as far as I know (his move to Puerto Rico is noted in the article under the "Later years" heading). --Camembert

Camembert, the most common name of Pau or Pablo in english is Paul.

Pau Casals was catalan and very proud of it. If you use the castelian name of paul, pablo, I supose he will prefered if you used the form: (...) also known as Pablo Casals.

Your name is Camembert nobody calls you cheese cause is the most common name in english.

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Is Catalan now a separate nationality to Spanish? I've noticed that several articles about artists are being amended (by the same person, I think) from Spanish to Catalan Spanish. Is this being overly sensitive? Surely the Catalan part can be included in the main body of the article and not be treated as a separate nationality? Does Catalonia issue separate passports from Spain? Are nationals of Manchester to be referred to as "Mancunian English"? Will Americans from Miami now be called "Floridian Americans" and will we start seeing references to "Québecois Canadian", "Corsican French" "Tuscan Italian" as nationalities? Orbicle 15:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

But you accept Sean Connery being defined as a Scott and not as a Briton? Ripero (talk) 21:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Orbicle, Catalonia is a nation since more than 1000 years ago. Now we are administratively under 2 different states that his the kingdom of Spain and the republic of France. On the 11th September of 1714, Catalonia lost his freedom in a historical resistance in Barcelona. How he spoke the ONU Pau Casals: "I am Catalan, Catalonia has had the first parliament of the world". No, we have own passport, it is not allowed us to have it. But we struggle for Catalonia, a millennial nation! --sebas 84.77.198.72 20:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

So be it! But the worst combination of all would be Spanish Catalan because it would mean he was Spaniard form Catalonia... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.37.50.212 (talk) 19:02, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Orbicle, Catalan is "now" (and has been for centuries) a separate nationality. The issue of passports is irrelevant. A passport is issued by a state. Not all nationalities have states and nobody is claiming that Catalonia is a state. See for example Poundmaker, who is described as Cree in the first sentence, and not "American." In checking this example, I was also surprised to see that the article is under his Cree name, which I have never encountered in any literature, and "Poundmaker" is a redirect. Carolynparrishfan 13:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

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Pablo Casals is an imposition of the dictatorships in Spain, in which prohibited the natural, original and official name Pablo Casals.

This dictatorships has caused that is used at the present time by ignorance of some authors.

Other authors use it like vindication of the facist dictatorship, the terror and the deprivation of liberties of the free citizens.

Thank you! -- Correction: Pablo Casals is an imposition of the dictatorships in Spain, in which prohibited the natural, original and official name PAU Casals.

This dictatorships has caused that is used at the present time by ignorance of some authors.

Other authors use it like vindication of the facist dictatorship, the terror and the deprivation of liberties of the free citizens.

Thank you!

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Changed on the legacy Pablo Casals Cello Foundation to the correct name's foundation Pau Casals Foundation Jacquard2 22:09, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

He wanted to be named Pau (not Pablo) because Pau was his name in catalan, his language, and specially because PAU in his language means PEACE. I don't understand why english wikipedia are not able to respect something than even spanish wikipedia respects. --reventlov

Name move?

I just reverted a unilateral move of the article from "Pablo" to "Pau". Personally I am fine with either title, but please let us have some discussion and consensus first. A note to those suggesting that "Pablo" is only the imposition of the Franco Fascist dictatorship, that he lived his later life elsewhere-- "Pau" was not illegal in Puerto Rico or other countries where he was still commonly billed as "Pablo". However if someone could please quote Casals' OWN WORDS stating he wished to be known as "Pau", that would probably make a strong case -- Infrogmation 18:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Infrogmation, in 1972, Pau Casals and his wife Marta created the Pau Casals Foundation for the purpose of bequeathing to Catalonia the whole legacy the maestro had conserved in the house in Sant Salvador. The people of Catalonia were to be the guardians of that heritage.Which is the name that he puts for the foundation? He is very expensive, Pau Casals Foundation! The link at this article, in english. Link to the oficial heritage of Pau Casals, the Pau Casals Fundation, in Catalan, English, Spanish and French. Link to the original letter of Pau Casals, signed by Pau Casals. Pau Casals was a fighterof the peace. It always liked him to say Peace, Peace and Peace, and he explained that this was the way of his life to the same as that of his name (his name, Pau, means Peace in catalan) -- Abat sise 13:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

____________________________________________________________________________

I don't know if it's possible to quote him asking to be called by his name, maybe he wasn't relly bothered with the name "Pablo"... However, what he said infront of the United Nations will give you a general idea about his point of view: Words of gratitude pronouced by Pau Casals in front of the United Nations Assembly when he was awarded the Medal of Peace on the 24th of October of 1971:

"This is the greatest honour I have ever received in my life. Peace has always been my greatest concern. Yet in my childhood I learned to love it. My mother—an exceptional, brilliant woman—used to speak to me about it when I was still a child, because in those years there were also a lot of wars. Moreover, I am Catalan. Catalonia had the first democratic Parliament much before than England. And it was in my country where there was a beginning of united nations. At that time—the eleventh Century—they met in Toluges—today in France—to speak about peace, because the Catalonian people of that time were already against war. That is why, the United Nations, which work only for the ideal of peace, are in my hearth, because everything relating to peace goes directly there. "I have not played the cello in front of an audience since long years but I think I must do it this time. I am going to play a melody from the Catalonian folklore: The singing of the Birds. Birds, when in the sky, go singing: Peace, peace, peace. And this is a melody that Bach, Beethoven and all great people would have admired and loved. And, in addition, it springs up from the soul of my country: Catalonia."

As you can see, he claims to be Catalan several times. He also says that Catalonia is his county, not Spain. Because of that we can esaly asume that he would like to be called by the Catalan form of Pablo (Pau). You can also see that he was a peace lover and Pau, in Catalan, means "peace" ("Pablo" doesen't mean nothing in any language). (unsigned comment by User:Great mike)

Note: please sign your discussion comments. (Just put 4 tildes ~ in a row at the end of a discussion comment and your user name and time of comment will be added automatically.) Your statement is poetic, but rather than "asume" we try to go for evidence. Eg, if no statement in his own words can be found, how did he sign his name, if the letters of the first name are legible? How was he billed when performing in nations other than Spain under Franco? Legal documents-- contracts, passport? -- Infrogmation 18:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Legal documents -- contracts, passport. Could the editors post here some documents that credited him as Pablo Casals?

A letter signed by "Pau" Casals: http://www.bib.ub.es/www10/temes/1exipc.jpg --reventlov

First of all, let me apologise for editing the main page without reading the discussion above. It was such a clear thing for me that I couldn't think there would ever be such a discussion.

Let's go to the facts. There are two things being discussed here:

1) Casals Catalan vs Spanish, and

2) Pau vs. Pablo.

Let's try to shed some light on these.

1) The first point is clear: Casals was both, Spanish and Catalan. He was born (and lived for many years) in a state called Spain, so he's Spanish. No doubt. However, he was born (and grew up) in a region which some centuries ago was independent from the rest of Spain, with some different traditions and culture: Catalonia. So, because of this, he also was Catalan, no doubt of this either. There's a point: obviously not all Spanish people are Catalan, but also not al Catalan people are Spanish, since the historical Catalonia extended e.g. to the South of France. So, it should always be said that he was Catalan and Spanish.

But being isn't the same as feeling. Did Casals felt more Catalan than Spanish? I haven't read his memories, so I am not an authority on that, but from his UN speech it seems he felt Catalan. The quotes in the Pau Casals Foundation website also suggest that: “This house is the expression and synthesis of my life as a Catalan and an artist”, etc.

2) His name was Pau. I think everybody agrees on this: he signed Pau (jpg above), he called his foundation "Pau Casals", etc. On the other hand, I can accept he was called Pablo by many people, so I understand the "Pablo" appearing in the article. However, I wouldn't say "commonly known as" but "also known as", since I think this would better fit the reality: some of us knew him as Pau, others as Pablo, but we cannot survey the world population to know which of the two forms is more used.

Other things I think should be changed are:

- The page title: I think it should be "Pau Casals" (like in the first sentence of the article), and have the "Pablo Casals" article redirect to here.

- The disambiguation page only presents "Pablo", that's really strange for me. I think the disambiguation page should be complete and have both "Pau" and "Pablo".

- The "Pablo Casals Cello Foundation" that appears in the text should be cited as its true name, "Pau Casals Foundation" (I believe the registered one is "Fundació Pau Casals", but they also translate the "Fundació" to "Foundation" at their website). Notice no "Cello" in the name: the foundation runs both cello fellowships and activities and Casals' museum.

Just a final comment: it's funny seing so much discussion in the English page about Pau Casals, when in the Spanish page (where politics and language matters about topics like that could be more passionate and even violent) there's no discussion at all, and everybody agrees on "Catalan" and "Pau".Ripero 01:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Pau Casals signs as Pau, not Pablo (see the jpg above). Pau Casals declares himself Catalan, not Spanish. Catalan and Spanish Wikipedias say "Pau Casals", not "Pablo Casals". Therefore, I think that the most appropiate name for the article is Pau Casals, and a redirection from Pablo to Pau, not the opposite.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 19:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. If it's a Catalan name it should be written the Catalan way and "Pablo Casals" to be a redirection page. -- Magioladitis 23:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I've started looking in to this a little bit and am starting to come to a different conclusion based on material I've seen from when he was alive. I recently saw a signed photograph by Casals-- it is clearly signed "Pablo". I can place a copy of this on line for reference if you have any doubt. In the USA there is absolutely no legal restrictions nor presure against Catalan names; he could have called himself "Pau" if he chose. His recordings from when he was alive in the USA and Latin America are listed as "Pablo", and I have read a number of articles and interviews from when he was alive refering to him simply as "Pablo". I am starting to suspect that the campaign to remove any reference to him as "Pablo" is something from after he died, not necessarily going along with anything he insisted on himself. I also note that a google seach with the word "cellist" (to get English language results) shows 162,000 hits for "Pablo Casals" and 11,400 hits for "Pau Casals". I therefore suggest that "Pablo Casals" is the name he is most commonly known by in English. Googling simply "Pau Casals" gets 345,000 hits; while 549,000 for "Pablo Casals", suggesting it is more common even not considering language. I suspect that "Pablo Casals" was the name he commonly used internationally. I am therefore leaning towards leaving it "Pablo" for much the same reason that we have the article on the fellow born Ehrich Weiss at Harry Houdini or the many other examples where the article is at the name they were most commonly known by professionally rather than their birth name. Respectfully, -- Infrogmation 01:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Could you post the link with the photograph in which appears the name Pablo? I saw and it was manipulated with a Photoshop or similar. Then with an exhaustive search, I could see the REAL name written by him. The letter is in that address: http://www.bib.ub.es/www10/temes/1exilar.htm Search by PAU CASALS. ( link: http://www.bib.ub.es/www10/temes/1exipc.jpg ) Inforgmation, are you afraid because his real name wasn't pablo? could you show to us evidences that the name he prefered was pablo?

PS: The link with (I assume) your photograph http://www.grafologianet.com.ar/Firmas.htm It is clearly manipulated with a computer program. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.61.32.241 (talk)

PAU was his name.

Pau was his name. Because of the dictatorship, all the first names had to be in Spanish. That means that even if he went to live in Puerto Rico, he still had "Pablo" on his passport. I don't think he could change his name to Catalan in Puerto Rico. He considered himself Catalan, as he said at the United Nations Assembly (http://youtube.com/watch?v=AKlkO3Tt3Kw). I'm sure he would have changed his name to Catalan with the Spanish "democracy". So, that's why I think his name should be PAU, a beautiful name in Catalan that also means "peace". To put his name in Spanish is nonsense. The English Wikipedia talking about a Catalan musician through Spanish: nonsense. This is what we, the Catalans, have to suffer for not being independent and being under the rule of Spain, France and Italy. We live under the shadow of these big countries, and a lot of people don't even understand this!

Orbicle, what you say is nonsense as well. Go to Corsica and tell a person from there that he/she is French. Then listen to what they tell you. Or a better one, go to Scotland and tell the Scottish they're British. I'm sure you're English or American, or from a big colony which doesn't respect the minority, am I right? You all behave in the same way. You wouldn't think the same if you were from a country which was invaded by a bigger country and ruled by it since then, with all the consequences.

Anyway, it's always the same thing over and over again. His name was PAU. If you still put a foreign name to him it means you don't respect him. Marta.

Clearly this is a very emotional issue for some folks. Please see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Let's stick to the facts. If we have some documentation about him wanting to change his legal name but being prevented from doing so, add a reference. However, removing all mention of "Pablo"from the article is not a matter of "respect"; some might even think it is dishonest censorship to refuse to mention that he was known by that name to millions of fans, he had records issued under that name, appeared at performances under that name, signed autographs with that name. If the name is objectionable; explain with referenced facts; that can go in the article. But please don't expect the world to pretend the name "Pablo Casals" never existed when there is ample doccumentation that it did. Hope this helps, -- Infrogmation 02:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

cleary you don't respect each others. First of all, you don't respect the neutral point of view. you are confused by the people that claim that the name was pablo, and you said in 5 february 2007 (comments above) that you found a photograph with the name pablo could you post it? It is that photograph? http://www.grafologianet.com.ar/Firmas.htm it's clearly manipulated with photoshop or similars. Some people are aporting new thing that are focusing on the name was Pau nor the pablo you say, could you demonstrate that the name he prefered was pablo? -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.61.32.241 (talk)

No, that image has nothing to do with what I was talking about. A signed photo of "Pablo Casals" (as he himself signed it) can be seen by any visitor to the Longe Vue House & Garden, a tourist attraction in New Orleans. Per your request, I shall put it online within the next day or so. However I hardly think such evidence is rare. I could also scan old articles or record labels refering to "Pablo Casals"; such can be found easily in many libraries. Any attempt to pretend he was not called that is silly, and trying to say that the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of people who loved his beautiful music who bought his records which were labeled "Pablo Casals" must have been motivated by disrespect for Casals or support for Fascism is absurd if not worse. -- Infrogmation 12:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

File:PabloCasals1963Signed.jpg

Photograph singed "Pablo Casals"

Here you go. Click for full size. Hope this helps. -- Infrogmation 13:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

As you said, this photograph is (was) (as I could saw when it was posted) a "tourist attraction". Would you like a photograph signed as PAU CASALS? I could find here in Catalonia a lot, maybe a thousand more than your's one photograph. --81.61.33.92 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.61.33.92 (talk) 22:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

This image does not contibute to this discussion, it is a simply image, a photo like the letter signed as PAU CASALS. PS: Could you post the messages that someone posted before? You don't respect each others. PS2: The link with the speech at the United Nations (He says from his lips that he was a Catalan http://youtube.com/watch?v=uD43EKR4Qc4 (this is with subtitles) http://youtube.com/watch?v=e4c0nW5WSMI (this is dubbed in catalan) in the videos the words of the Mr. Casals are both in english so you, (a folk american new orleans) don't must have some troubles to understand him; Ah! did you found something if you search for pablo casals united nations ? and if you search for pau casals united nations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.231.98.136 (talk)

Whether it "contributes to this discussion" or not, the anon at 81.61.32.241 specifically requested it. Despite the user's insults, I granted the request. That anon has since shown themselves to be nothing but a vandal who cares nothing for Casals but only for deliberate insults and disruption, and so has been blocked. As to your question, I know of no one here who have challenged that Casals was Catalan. Cheers, --

Infrogmation 03:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Please Infrogmation I'm Glad you show me the insults that you are accusing me to say. Pleeease show them to all of us. Pleease restore the lasts comments on this board, if you restore them you are possibiliting other people to judge if I insulted you, or if I insulted anyone. And about the photo of you are proud of, clearly shows to the visitors an ERROR. The SURNAME was CASALS not the surname they show CASAL. --Toca'm els collons!

• Let's try to stop being emotional, and stick to the facts. Casals birth name was Pau, because he was born in Catalonia and educated in a Catalan family. It is also true that he was known with the spanish name Pablo, during a big part of his professional career. As of today, both "Pau Casals" and "Pablo Casals" are very common terms used everywhere. I just tried a google search, using quotation marks to get more precise results, and we have 443.000 results for "Pau Casals" and 405.000 results for "Pablo Casals". It is therefore very important to mention both of them at the introduction of the article. I will do it now.Jordiferrer (talk) 10:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

May be we can resurrect him! So we can ask him in person why did he use "Pablo" instead of "Pau", his birthname, early during his career or during Spanish's dictatorship... (so we don't have to rely on hundreds over hundreds of personal correspondence where he signs as "Pau") furthermore, it'd be a wise idea to ask him about why he went on exile as well. Just in case in the future any folk here gets the idea to change his "exile" for "vacation", because he read a letter where he stated having a great time in New York... I'd take it seriously if it wasn't because I know that for normal people Pau's life and basically the effects of Spanish's dictatorship are not well known, due to the pre-democratic silence's pact.

Facts: Pau Casals, was born as it's written, but used "Pablo" due to the censorship its people suffered of its language and culture. The name "Pablo" was the only allowed by the government authorities (even before dictactorship) and that is why is better known worlwide, but he used as much as he could his birthname.

In fact, what he is precisely claimming at his speech in the United Nations (this video we all have seen thousands of times) is being CATALAN.

So please, could we move this page to his birthname "Pau Casals" (and end this discussion once and for all), while pointing he was well-know in his time to the name of Pablo due to political censorship? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.19.50.211 (talk) 13:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Style and Musicianship

Someone with some expertise and knowledge about Cello performance really ought to initiate a section on Casals's distinctive playing style. After all, this is what made him great. I'm a pianist, and I don't feel qualified even to start such a section, but an article on arguably the greatest cellist of the twentieth century ought to explicate what it was that accounted for his prominence. 66.108.4.183 (talk) 00:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC) Allen Roth

His name wasn't Pablo but Pau

His name wasn't Pablo but Pau!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!--81.36.195.183 (talk) 19:11, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Read the previous discussions about it and The Wikipedia naming conventions. His Catalan name is Pau, but he's known in English as Pablo. If you have sources (per the naming conventions) that prove that he should be named Pau here, please present them. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

-- I'm from El Vendrell, Pau Casals' hometown and resting place. Everybody here, as well in all Catalonia, call him Pau Casals. It's obvious for me that he was officially spanish, but he was also catalan, and I'm sure (read his speech at UN) he felt his nation was Catalonia. It's also obvious his name was Pau Casals. Oh, please! Franco forbid using catalan names, and that was one of the things Pau fought the most. I will go to the graveyard to take and upload a photo of his tomb, where you can read "Pau Casals". Also here there is the house where hi born, the house where hi lived, mouseums... Everywhere he is called Pau Casals. Neutral politics have nothing to do with this. The fact that we (catalans) feel bad about this doesn't mean it's not true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.225.182.144 (talk) 13:54, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the conventions but it is so sad to translate person's names like this.--80.37.230.224 (talk) 07:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Casals and United Nations

The passions raised by the question of language are no excuse for descalificaciones here at Wikipedia, or anywhere else, for that matter. So please respect the conventions of polite debate. And sign your contributions.

Not only do I defend, politely, the right to use “minority” languages, but I have long been a fan of Casals and first came across the name Pau when I came to live here in Spain. All other references, recordings, etc., that I have use the name Pablo. As has been mentioned here, he had plenty of opportunity, living outside Spain, to choose the name by which he wanted to be known, and the evidence points to the name Pablo. As Infrogmation repeatedly states, if there is referenced evidence to the contrary, please post it here.

It is perfectly clear that the English language edition of Wikipedia needs to use the English-language version of somebody’s name, if one exists, because it would otherwise be impossible for anybody not knowing the birth name to find out any information about said person. If relevant, and referenced, there is plenty of space in the body of the article to include other versions, including foreign-language spellings, etc.

Just so that what I mean is perfectly clear to everyone, a person born in China, for example, would have his or her name here at the English-language edition of Wikipedia in English or nearest equivalent. In the English-speaking world, Casals was known as Pablo. In his Catalunya natal, he is/was known as Pau.

But just to check, I took up the suggestion of one of the most aggressive contributors to this discussion page - and wishing to be neutral, chose only the surname - and Googled the following at 18:30 (local Spanish time) today: Casals AND United Nations http://www.google.es/search?q=casals+AND+United+Nations&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:es-ES:official&client=firefox-a.

Sorry again, but I'm unable to see the name Pablo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.205.127 (talk) 18:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The first page to appear is the Spanish-version of the United Nations Radio website http://www.un.org/radio/es/6567.asp which refers to Pablo Casals.

Sorry the UN radio return a PAGE NOT FOUND, maybe due to it was Pau Casals?

The second page to appear is the following English-language fact sheet posted by the Public Inquiries Unit, Department of Public Information, United Nations and reads as follows (being only a fact sheet, they obviously state that it is not an official UN document):

Not an official document.
For information only.

August 2005

Does the UN have a hymn or national anthem? Though many songs have been written about the United Nations or on related themes, there is no official anthem or hymn for the Organization. One such song, or hymn, was written and performed at the United Nations on 24 October 1971, on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the United Nations, by Maestro Pablo Casals of Spain. The words were written by poet W.H. Auden of the United Kingdom. The two, though they had never met, were brought together in this unusual collaboration by then United Nations Secretary-General U Thant. For centuries, poets and musicians have sung in praise of war and celebrated victories in battles. U Thant was intrigued by the fact that there existed no hymn to peace. Pablo Casals was a personal friend of his, and when approached by U Thant, he readily agreed to write the music. As the Secretary-General explained, the song was to be based on the preamble to the Charter of the United Nations. Although it would not be formally adopted as the official anthem of the United Nations, U Thant hoped it would be performed on appropriate occasions. While Casals greatly liked the ideas contained in the preamble, there was no way he could put music to such a document. The task to write an appropriate poem, based on the theme of peace and ideals enshrined in the preamble, fell on W.H. Auden, then regarded as the greatest living English poet. When a representative of the Secretary-General approached the poet, he immediately agreed to write the poem. In three days’ time, Auden finished writing A hymn to the UN, which was then set to music by Casals. On 24 October 1971, the Orchestra of the Festival Casals, with the Maestro himself as conductor, presented the hymn in a première performance at UN headquarters. A Hymn to the UN Music: Pablo Casals Words: W.H. Auden
(There follows the lyrics to the anthem)
This fact sheet has been issued by the Public Inquiries Unit, Department of Public Information, United Nations.

The 3rd page to appear is an English-language blog, called “Catalonia the next state”: http://cataloniathenextstate.blogspot.com/2007/05/pau-casals-special-concert-at-united.html which refers to Pau (and is a version of the Wikipedia article).
--Technopat (talk) 17:22, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

A new voice in the never ending discussion

I can't belive Pau Casals article is written in his Spanish translated name. He would have died before being Spanish, sure he would be so deceptioned to see his name, anywhere, written in Spanish. I DEMAND his name to be changed for his birth name PAU (meaning peace in Catalan, when Pablo means NOTHING). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.140.173.9 (talk) 09:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• Please read earlier discussion, thanks. -- Infrogmation (talk) 02:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I see, many editors say the name is Pau Casals, this editors bring pooves. It is also the name in catalan, spanish and many of the wikipedias.--Ssola (talk) 12:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Casals and his parents are the only people who decide his name. Casals signed as Pau, and the name Pablo doesn't exists in catalan. Pau Casals says many times he is catalan, just catalan! --Ssola (talk) 12:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• • I know wikipedia is not a democracy, but many of the people, many of the wikipedias, all the ownwrritted documents from Casals say his name is Pau, the catalan name. The wikipedia can't follow a wrong name only because many people have been wrong during the history.--Ssola (talk) 12:15, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Normal English usage is Pablo. Those who feel the need of a Catalan name should read the Catalan Wikipedia. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
      • Normal English name is Paul not Pablo. Pablo is the name in Spanish. If you want to name him Pablo, you should read the spaniard wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.205.127 (talk) 18:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I cite the portuguesse wikipedia: Ironicamente, Pau Casals tornou-se conhecido internacionalmente pelo seu prenome em castelhano, Pablo, sendo que foi um grande incentivador da luta contra a ditadura de Francisco Franco e o domínio nazista. Ao fim, o nome imposto pelo regime franquista ficou gravado.--Ssola (talk) 20:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

How nice; the Portuguese Wikipedia is not a reliable source; the Schwann catalogue, however, is. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

How nice! you're kidding!, the Schwann catalogue isn't a reliable source, no citation quotes, doesn't bring information about who has wrote the article... You're kidding, sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.205.127 (talk) 18:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

No, of course I'm not kidding. Schwann's doesn't need footnotes; they're not free to be edited by every cause-monger, and so don't have to have them to be marginally credible. 23:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Schwann is an encyclopedia, and all the encyclopedic articles needs footnotes. If they don't cite notes, it won't be an article to be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.37.220.139 (talk) 00:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Infrogmation, you're the only one in this wiki who wants to name this artist as Pablo. As I said few months ago, the name was Pau, but the prove you contributed to the discussion was a photograph signed by him as Pablo (as you said, you saw this signature in a hotel, do you remember?

The only thing you assured not to move the article to Pau Casals was: Pablo was his artistic name so many people only knew him by his artistic name. Can you remember your words? Is that the only reason not to move the article to Pau? In other way: No one calls George W. Bush as Jorge Bush (latin-american name), they call him as George Bush. Why you want to name Mr. Casals by his artistic name, and not by his real name??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.205.127 (talk) 18:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah!, Infrogmation, another reason ton to move the article to his real name was:

• • • 736.000 pages for Pau Casals against 2.470.000 for the spaniard name.

You don't want to redirect the page to the real name just because you want to attract by the name which has more pages. Just one question, how many people visits this page, in a week or a month? maybe 3 or 4 persons? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.205.127 (talk) 18:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

¿Jorge Bush? ¿El Greco? - or in the case of cities: ¿Londres? ¿Pekín? We could go on like this, wasting editors' valuable time, until the cows come home, but why don't we all just try to improve the article by adding useful and informative information on Casals, his interesting life and his wonderful music.

If Casals was internationally known - at least in the English-speaking world - as Pablo Casals, that is the name of the article for the English-language Wikipedia. The article clearly states his name in Catalan, it clearly states his love of Catalunya and it clearly states his hatred of Franco. Can anyone reading the article doubt Casals' feelings and love for Catalonia (the English word). I don't think so.

As Infrogmation rightly and repeatedly points out, please provide references that Casals used the name Pau - in public - before Franco forbade the use of Catalan during the dictatorship. --Technopat (talk) 18:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Thought some of you might be interested in the following: In 1911 (for those of you unfamiliar with Spanish history, several years before Franco prohibited the use of Catalan), the New York Times announced that Pablo Casals would appear at the London Musical Festival (Crystal Palace): http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C0CE3DE1031E233A2575AC0A9629C946096D6CF

--Technopat (talk) 22:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

For you (Technopat), which you don't really know what happened in Spain much befor franco dictatorship, since 1931 (the second spanish republic), ALL the names in Spain were obligated to be wrotten in Spanish, not in catalan, euskera or galego. Don't try to manipulate the readers, if you want to talk about history, show ALL the history NOT a small part of it. It will explode in your hands. --k —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.37.220.139 (talk) 00:14, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Since the paper is from April 19, 1911, the reign of Alfonso XIII, what does this have to with the price of tea in China? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In 1911 wasn't permitted to name a person in Catalan, Euskera or Galego. It was obligated to mention them ONLY in Spanish form. After the died of franco, it was permitted to register catalan, euskera or galego names. Want some more historical skills of spain? Just because you don't know history from spain, and concretly from Catalunya (the country of Pau Casals). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.37.220.139 (talk) 01:04, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

←At the risk of going too far off-topic, but in the interests of furthering my education, if Casals was actually christened Pau - which nobody doubts - just when was the use of the Catalan name prohibited? First someone said "by Franco", then in the earlier dictatorship (Primo de Rivera), and now it turns out that already by 1911. Please provide references - which will obviously be in Spanish - but here on the talk page that doesn't really matter, does it? By the way, I can assure you that I have no interest whatsoever in manipulating history - I find Orwell's 1984 the best antidote to totalitarian leanings, and Wikipedia as the perfect vehicle for permitting that Pau and Pablo can co-exist on the same page.--Technopat (talk) 10:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Just for your request:

Before 1931 (the second Spanish Republic), ALL the regions in Spain -no matter if we're talking about Catalonia, Galicia or Euskadi (all of them have their own culture, their own language, their own history (which their history contribute to all the history in Spain)- were administrated by governors of the capital (I'm refering to the central government -I don't know the exact translation into english sense-), this administrators were usually military (We know as Capità General (in catalan) or Capitán General (in spanish). Due to this lack of region governement the region history (again, no matter if we're talking about Catalunya, Euskadi or Galicia), was prohibited, the language was banned from school, from the public life (I don't know the correct english sense, for example, You couldn't talk to another person in the street, in a restaurant... in your own language, only in the imposed language, Spanish. So nobody could express in freedom. After 1931, people could express in their own language, in school, children could learn catalan, euskera, or galego.

Did you visit Pau Casals Foundation located in El Vendrell? of course no because all the reference are from other and no from the artist foundation.

If nobody doubts he was christened Pau, why you want to maintain this page as Pablo, put the correct name in the header and in the first line specify that he was known as Pablo Casals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.37.220.139 (talk) 14:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation, but you still haven't answered my question (...if Casals was actually christened Pau - which nobody doubts - just when was the use of the Catalan name prohibited?). In answer to your question as to why we(?) keep the article on the English-language Wikipedia under the name Pablo (If nobody doubts he was christened Pau, why you want to maintain this as Pablo...?) the reason is very simple: throughout his long and productive career that is what he was known as - at least in the English-speaking world. The fact that many, and possibly most, modern-day references in El Vendrell, or wherever - especially in his own country - refer to him as Pau (¡y faltaría más!) is unfortunately irrelevant. If anyone can produce references that Casals called himself Pau in public, and in English, please do so.

I answered your question, but you don't read carefully. I give you a hint: From 3th line to 10th line.

The article is seriously lacking in references, and by pure chance, the two I have produced, from the UN and from the New York Times - hardly sources that can be accused of being anti-Catalan - both refer to him outside of Spain, Catalonia or El Vendrell, as Pablo. If Pau was the name on his birth certificate, then that would mean it was officially recognised at the time he was born. If the law/ruling authority later imposed the "castellanización" of his name, it would be interesting to add that fact to the article, and when, duly referenced (and it's obvious that I don't mean in his particular case). As someone has already pointed out, living as he did outside Spain, Casals had plenty of opportunities to refer to himself as Pau if he wanted to and there does not seem to be any evidence of that, at least in the English-language literature. --Technopat (talk) 16:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The "castellanización" was imposed in Catalunya after 1714. Don't mess it around. If he preferred his name pablo, why he needed to defend Catalunya in all the ceremonies he was invited? Why he preferred to defend Catalunya in the UN against to defend the spanish people who were exilied from the dictatorship, WHY??

I think strongly that you know the history of Spain and concretely from Catalunya.

In Catalunya, from 1714 to 1931 (due to the Aragón Crown lost the war against Phillip V - Phillip V forbade the languages, the history and the emblems of the territories). This means If you wanted to be crhistianised with a Catalan name, it was forbidden!! In 1931 after the second republic came, this prohibition was released and people could be christianised with Catalan names. In 1939, the dictatorship came and all of this was, again, forbade.

• I've removed the request from Wikipedia:Requested moves, since the request stood incomplete for five days. Scanning the discussion above, I would like to say that the whole issue of whether or not he was legally allowed to use his Catalan name is not really important for naming purposes. The one and only thing that really matters is WP:COMMONNAME: what was the subject of the article best known as in the English world? Please look at Mark Twain for an example of an American writer who is listed under his pen name. What the subject of the article would have wanted is irrelevant. Please keep Wikipedia's naming conventions in mind when carrying out this debate, it generally makes it easier to find consensus. Thank you!--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 07:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it is ashaming for a serious wikipedia to put one person a mistaken name even knowing it. I thing it supposes a total lack of respect towards a person who fought for the peace and the freedom. Your arguments are simply ridiculous, I mean, why should we care how many entries are on the web? what really cares is his real name, and the name he wanted to be called! I could expect to find this kind of attitudes in the spanish wikipedia but I really didn't expect this lack of respect towards catalans coming from yours! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.156.166.98 (talk) 16:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Search engine test

Let's use Wikipedia:Search engine test to see the use of the names below in english community (enlgish webs). Compare:

• [1] Results 1 - 10 of about 386,000 for "Pablo casals"
• [2]Results 1 - 10 of about 541,000 for "Pau Casals". 40% more.
• Speaking in United Nations.

Mentoning himself as Pau Casals:

• A letter.
• Another letter from Prades.

Is obvious.--Ssola (talk) 17:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Greetings Ssola and All, At the risk of repeating myself and repeating what others have also pointed out, let's see if we can get some perspective on this:

1. No editor - as far as I know - has any objections to the article referring to Casals as Pau - in fact Wikipedia guidelines clearly state that the full name is to be given, whenever possible, which it is, right there on the first line. However, the article must appear under the name he was commonly known by. That is basic Wikipedia MoS.

2. The fact that a Google search brings up a certain number of occurences of a word/name is totally irrelevant for a number of reasons, including the fact that said number does not refer to an individual and unique document each time but rather that any single document is being repeated an infinite number of times at different websites. Likewise, it's possible that more documents have appeared about Casals written in Catalan over the last 20 years, say, than in English, which would not alter the fact that Casals was known in English - and this is the English-language Wikipedia - as Pablo.

3. Re. the two letters signed Pau, Casals was naturally more likely to use his name Pau when writing in Catalan - which is the case of the two letters above - but that doesn't alter the fact that to the English-speaking public he was known as Pablo, and as far as anyone knows, he made no attempt to change that. The article at Wikipedia must therefore be under that name.

4. As has been pointed out now several times, by means of example, what name is used for our Henry VIII in Spain or in Catalunya. Casals first came to the attention of the English-speaking public long before Franco - criminally in my opinion - banned the use of Catalan. And with successive rulers prohibiting the use of Catalan for several centuries, except for a brief period before Franco, as was pointed out above, I very much doubt that there is a birth certificate that proves he was christened Pau.

5. When a reliable source can demonstrate that Casals wanted to be known in public as Pau, together with documented evidence that the name Pau was used in the English-speaking world, then I think editors at this article can seriously enter into debate about what to do about it, but until then there really doesn't seem much to discuss - however many Google hits can be produced.

6. Please try to understand that this is not a matter of disrespect towards a great musician or an insult to the Catalan language - like other illustrious people before me, I, too, speak Catalan at home :) - But in the same way that this discussion is being carried out in English at the English-language version of Wikipedia, the subject must also be referred to under his English-language name... although no-one is seriously suggesting we change it to Paul, I hasten to add. --Technopat (talk) 19:40, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I know, and many Catalan people know, that saying our name in spanish is like an insult (especially if we are strong Catalan language defensors), you know, the opresion stills afecting us. Names haven't to be modificated. I could search references for this three sentences but I don't want to lose more my time. Insulting is not permited at wikipedia. I'm leaving this discussion, I prefer making grow ca-wiki. Just to make all you know that is the reason Catalan people (we) are angry when we see this page: we feel insulted in his place. I hope english wikipedia will understand any time. Thanks for your responses and sorry for my bad english. Adéu-siau!--Ssola (talk) 11:41, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

For me, as a catalan that has heard the name Pau Casals, in catalan, for more than 30 years, it was very surprising to see the spanish Pablo here as the title. Even the spanish wikipedia is using Pau. When I made my first google test, I saw a similar number of results for "Pau Casals" and "Pablo Casals". However, if we use advanced filter to search only english pages, it is true that Pablo is more commonly found. I now understand it better. As Technopat said, a reliable source is needed to check wether he wanted to be known as Pau or not. Jordiferrer (talk) 16:57, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Casals a citizen from Puerto Rico?

Here's a question: did Pablo/Pau Casals obtained the Puerto Rican nationality while living there? If he did, it should be noted in the bio section and if he didn't then categories such as "People from San Juan, Puerto Rico", "Puerto Rican classical cellists" and "Puerto Rican-Spaniards" should be removed. Please provide sources. Statemens without reputable and verifiable sources are worth nothing here. Cheers!! --Karljoos (talk) 16:03, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The only information we have is that he lived in Puerto Rico, but the nationallity isn't mentioned in our work. If there is no information the categories should be removed, he was only catalan.

PS:Moved to Pau because of the talk section efore.--Ssola (talk) 16:15, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a "Puerto Rico Citizenship". Puerto Rico is a commonwealth of the United States of America. All Puerto Ricans have only American citizenship, even if they wanted a "Puerto Rican citizenship", they can't have it because it DOESN'T EXIST.--

You have moved it without seeking consensus - and after your previous request to move it was turned down. As has been explained to you time and time again, Wikipedia naming conventions are clear in that the article has to be named following the easiest route to finding it. Want some more examples? Mick Jagger is the name of the article. Whatever his name was at birth, and whatever explanations and details and justifications are given in the article, the name for the article is NOT Michael Jagger - a search using that name will redirect.--Technopat (talk) 17:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the search engine test has been made in consensus to see what is the most commonly used name in the language, isn't it? The google resarches I did were 'only in english pages and show perfectly the results. Finally, I should say you have done your reversion without any consensus like me... Any reason for not reverting you?--Ssola (talk) 19:16, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I hadn't seen this till just now, or I would have replied sooner. Your edit was reverted as per Wikipedia MoS guidelines and the fact that any major edit - especially if potentially controversial - must be made following consensus. By the way, consensus at Wikipedia does not mean a majority imposing their views on a minority, but to seriously engaging in rational arguments leading to a good article. It does not mean edit-warring, so in answer to your question, I'm sure that is why you hadn't reverted my revert :) --Technopat (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

J! I just asked if there was any source clearly indicating that Pablo/Pau Casals, who did live in Puerto Rico, became legally a citizen of Puerto Rico (=obtained the nationality/passport or otherwise was legally granted Puerto Rican status). Please do provide sources, otherwise he should be called a “Spanish-Catalan” (Spanish for legal status of those who have Spanish nationality and Catalan for cultural origin). Please I do not wish to engage in another absurd dispute between Spanish Spaniards and Catalan Spaniards. I am just asking about PUERTO RICO. Thank you. --Karljoos (talk) 19:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Puerto Rico

Since nobody has provided information about Pau/Pablo Casals becoming a citizen of Puerto Rico after leaving Spain in 1936 I think that Pau Casals should be deleted from the "WikiProject Puerto Rico". He did indeed die there, he married a Puerto Rican and lived there some time, but since he did not become Puertorican and does not represent the local people, history, language, and culture he should not be in the project. Also, how come PC is both in the PR and Catalan Projects and not in the Spain project??? Thank you --Karljoos (talk) 14:23, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

This might be a shaky issue. Casals was known to be quite fond of Puerto Rico, where he lived a good portion of his life. There is a museum dedicated to him in San Juan, Puerto Rico, plus the Festival Casals is celebrated annually in the island. He is considered a very important figure here. I think he deserves to stay within the WikiProject Puerto Rico. I'll see what edits I can make to the article to make more notable the importance he had to Puerto Rico. Thief12 (talk) 16:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

While it is true that he did live there 22 of his 97 years and that there's a festival and a museum in Puerto Rico named after him (as there's one in Spain and many other festivals around), he was not born there and so far no one has provided a source indicating that he became legally a Puerto Rican. Also, fondness is something extremely subjective, and if someone wants to add something like that in the article should add a direct quote from Casals that can be verified. I really don't see why he should be in the PR project.-Karljoos (talk) 17:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Pablo Casals vs. Pau Casals

On wp-FR, after another move of our article fr:Pablo Casals to fr:Pau Casals, we have chosen, after reverting the move, to add a whole indefinite protection against any other move...

Note that wikiquote:Special:Contributions/Ssola, who has made two renamings of wp-FR (2008/11/09 and 2009/02/01), one on wp-IT (2008/11/09, reverted), one on wp-SV (2009/02/01, not reverted yet) and one on wp-EN (2009/01/21), is also requesting to rename the article on wikiquote-EN... Hégésippe | ±Θ± 07:59, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I gived reasons. I recently visited Pau Casal's museum and it's fantastic :). How did his wife call him? I don't know. I said I wasn't going to continue this talk, but I needed to write this message.--Ssola | Catalan roxs talk —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:59, 7 February 2009 (UTC).

I'm glad you enjoyed the visit to Casal's museum and I'm sure it's well worth it. I also have no doubt whatsoever that his wife called him Pau. But it really is not relevant to the article at the English-language Wikipedia - which is only concerned with the name that Casals used in public when referred to by English speakers.--Technopat (talk) 00:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree that the only concern should be the one you name. There are other concerns, such as how the particular person was called, which is more accurate, etc. There are many other examples in the wikipedia where the correct name prevailed over the most popular name in English, such as Mumbai (instead of Bombay).

It should be pointed out that this is one of the many instances where the google test just doesn't work. The proportion between Spanish speakers and Catalan speakers is 32 to 1. So it stands to logic that the sources will follow the same pattern and translations to English from Spanish will be much more numerous.

As I see it, the page should be renamed, to priorize the "person" over the "commercial brand".--RR (talk) 09:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for not replying to your note earlier, RR. I'm afraid that, once again, the Google search for Spanish vs Catalan is irrelevant. The only possible criterion for the English-language Wikipedia is what the English-language references use, at least during his lifetime - including his international career before Franco's dictatorship, give the name Pablo. It is only after his death - and in homage to his Catalan origins and the huge efforts to "normalise" the use of Pau that this name becomes increasingly widespread. However, every single public figure with an article at Wikipedia goes under the name he or she is most commonly recognised under - with a logical reference to his or her real name included in the first paragraph. --Technopat (talk) 23:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Why do you guys argue so much about Casals being "Spanish" or "Catalan" or "Pau" or "Pablo" and you don't say anything about being listed in the Puerto Rican program or classified in the categories "Puerto Rican classical cellists" and "Puerto Rican-Spaniards"??? I find this very interesting indeed.

I guess that's because categories are not exclusive. In some regards, he could be classified as Catalan, Spanish and Puerto Rican at the same time. In the same way he can be classified simultaniously as a cellist, conductor and composer. However, the name in the article is exclusive: it's one or the other.--RR (talk) 16:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Just visited the Festival Casals de Puerto Rico/Puerto Rican Casals Festival, founded by him, personally, as Pablo Casals, in 1956 [[3]] so he obviously had no objection as of the late 1950s, to being known as Pablo. --Technopat (talk) 16:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I have one of Casals' early 12" 78 records, Melody in F and Largo on Columbia A5649. The articles states that he made his first recordings in 1915. According to http://settlet.fateback.com/COLA5500.htm, this recording was made in December 1914. I don't know which is correct. Bruce Walters, April 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.27.102.221 (talk) 07:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

His name is PAU CASALS, no Pablo Casals —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.159.176.72 (talk • contribs)

On top of google search results, let me add that both the spanish wikipedia and the catalan one refer to him as "Pau Casals" as the article title. --Jordiferrer (talk) 10:16, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Look to the catalan meaning of "Pau" and you will find another argument for Pau Casals proudness on his name. -- 217.228.253.226 (talk) 10:58, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand why the English wp is among the last still sticking to the Hispanized name "Pablo" instead of the original Pau Casals. In many similar cases, the Catalan name was preferred (for example Francesc Ferrer i Guàrdia instead of Francisco Ferrer Guardia, Antoni Gaudí instead of Antonio Gaudí, etc.). I suggest the article be finally moved to Pau Casals: not only it's the original name, but it's also more used: Pablo Casals has 414,000 google entries, and Pau Casals 727,000; also in English pages, Pau Casals is more used than Pablo Casals (192,000 vs. 138,000 hits). I therefore see no reason to keep the current title. Viator slovenicus (talk) 20:20, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

If nobody has any objections, I propose the page to be moved from "Pablo Casals" to "Pau Casals". From the discussions above, it seems to me that the large majority of editors supports this move anyway. Viator slovenicus (talk) 19:36, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there are objections. On both sides. Note that "Pablo" is not merely "the Hispanized name", but how he was known (as well as how he billed himself, how his records were labeled, and how he signed his name) in the United States and other English speaking countries. I don't see any indication that "the large majority of editors" favor such a move as most of the comments are the accumulation of many years of people passing through most of whom have shown no indication to otherwise participate in editor nor improvement of the article. Infrogmation (talk) 01:17, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, as far as I know, Antoni Gaudí was also known in contemporary English sources as Antonio Gaudí, and Eugeni d'Ors was not only known as Eugenio d'Ors, but he also signed almost all of his works after 1920 under that name. And nevertheless, they are both listed under their original Catalan name. If you google Casals name (only English entries!), you will see that Pau Casals is much more common than Pablo Casals. Viator slovenicus (talk) 21:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

For what is worth, I've documented the reason he was known as Pablo Casals in his professional career — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.122.64.188 (talk) 17:18, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your good faith effort, but if you take a little time to read up about Casals, you will find that is obviously false. He was already internationally known as "Pablo Casals" decades before the start of the Franco regime, so it had nothing to do with the policies of Franco. Infrogmation (talk) 19:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Conservatory

I don’t speak Spanish, but “Conservatory de Musica y Declamacion” doesn’t look right. Conservatory de ...? Wouldn’t it be something like Conservatorio? And doesn’t Declamacion have an accent on the o? -- JackofOz (talk) 08:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Pau Carles Salvador

In Catalonia and Spain, Christians are given several names, usually three, when they are baptized, but only the first of those names is used and known after that. It does not make sense to add "Carles Salvador" to his name "Pau", as this only brings confusion. This is the common practise with all persons from spain and catalonia who have an article at wikipedia. Why Pau or Pablo casals should be different? See catalan wikipedia where Pau Casals i Delfilló is used. Jordiferrer (talk) 15:14, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Google: Pau Casals 891.000 > Pablo Casals 741.000

I believe Pau would be grateful to have his real name on the biggest encyclopedia ever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mezod (talk • contribs) 23:36, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Mezod, I fully understand what you mean, but unfortunately in the english speaking countries they are used to use the spanish "Pablo" instead of his native "Pau". See long discussions above. If you limit the google search to pages in english language, what do you get? --Jordiferrer (talk) 12:08, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

You contradicted your own argument: in English-speaking countries they would refer to him as PAUL, not PABLO. You should know what you're talking about before you, eh, talk.63.118.154.94 (talk) 19:12, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I am aware of the difference of results between "pablo casals" and "pau casals" google-searching in english. I am sure that difference will increase thanks to incorrect informations such as this wikipedia. Sometimes people is wrong, and someone has to put them on the right track. Once, I thought wikipedia meant to do that. Anyway, it's awkward that the article starts with a name which isn't the article name. --Mezod (talk) 20:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

His name was Pau, not Pablo

I'm not from Catalonia. I live in Málaga, a city in the south of Spain. It's not a question of politics. He prefered to be called Pau, and more than this, that was his true name. Apologize my English.

Pau Casals

To support the preferent use of Pau instead of Pablo, I'd like to quote from his auto-biography Joys and Sorrows – Reflections by Pablo Casals, as told by Albert E. Kahn:

"It was natural for me to use the Catalan name "Pau" in preference to the Spanish "Pablo." When I was young, it was still the custom in Catalonia to use Spanish baptismal names. And so I'd been called Pablo. But I later came to much prefer my Catalan name-Catalan, after all, is the true language of my people. More than once I'd told my managers I wanted to use the name "Pau" in my concert tours. But they'd argue, "Audiences have come to think of you as Pablo Casals. Nobody will know who Pau Casals is." But now, in naming my own orchestra, I no longer felt under this restriction."

And it was not really a custom in Catalonia to use the Spanish baptismal names, it was just mandatory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.115.144.17 (talk) 08:23, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Not until later in Franco era; he was using Pablo long before then. Infrogmation (talk)

Marriages

Someone please correct the following. Look at the Sub-section for Puerto Rico and see:

'On August 3, 1957, at 80, Casals married 20 year old Marta Montañez'

followed later in the same paragraph by:

'He subsequently married Marta Angélica Montañez y Martinez on April 3, 1957.[11]'

Just another one of the many, many blunders stupid 'editors' make on Wikipedia. 63.118.154.94 (talk) 19:10, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Proposed changes in the lead

Change:

... was a Spanish Catalan cellist and conductor ...

to

... was a Catalan cellist, conductor and composer ...

• because there is no such thing as a Spanish Catalan, as there is no such thing as an English Scottish

+But there is such a thing as a French Catalan, as I discovered some 30 years ago when a strikingly beautiful woman announced herself to me as such Reffik (talk) 21:49, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

• and because he was also a composer

+Here I agree (and his motet O Vos Omnes is very beautiful)

• and because Xan always redirect to X people (like Scotish)

And

... known during his professional career as Pablo Casals ...

to

... known in some countries as Pablo Casals ...

• because in Catalonia has always been known as Pau Casals, even in Spain

Please comment --Polmas (talk) 21:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Please see coments by User:Ripero on this issue from 01:47, 27 December 2006 above. This article has long been subject to people unilaterally removing all mention of "Catalonia" on one side, and other people removing all mention of "Spain" on the other side. I think best to keep mentioning both. Casals was born in the part of Catalonia within the borders of Spain at the time, as opposed to being a Catalan born within France, no? Infrogmation (talk) 00:41, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Name disputes

At the very top of this Discussion page is this note:

Please note:

Before making any further proposals to changing the name of this article from Pablo Casals to Pau Casals, please read the following article on why the article is so named: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names)

Thank you.

This seems to be the relevant text from that link:

Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. For cases where usage differs among English-speaking countries, see also National varieties of English below.
... The term most typically used in reliable sources is preferred to technically correct but rarer forms, whether the official name, the scientific name, the birth name, the original name or the trademarked name. Other encyclopedias may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register as well as what name is most frequently used.

Also see WP:STAGENAME, as follows:

The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not their "real" name

Also, in reference specifically to both Casals and Artur/Arthur Rubinstein, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music#WP policy on names: personal vs professional, as follows:

Pablo, and Artur -- both New Grove [i.e., The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians] and Library of Congress prefer these forms of the names for Casals and for Rubinstein. Given that this is en.Wikipedia, I suggest that we follow these authorities. (Oxford [i.e., The Oxford Dictionary of Music] also prefers Pablo, but does give Arthur over Artur. I have a copy of Oxford 5th, but it was easy enough to simply call my local library for Grove and LC. Anyone else could easily verify this information themselves. The (American) LC catalog is online. For instance, it lists his autobiography My Young Years and My Many Years [by] Arthur Rubinstein as Rubinstein, Artur, 1887-1982. For Pau Casals it says "See Casals, Pablo, 1876-1973." The New Grove Dictionary will be the same in any country.)

Milkunderwood (talk) 00:19, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

My own copy of Grove calls him Pablo and does not mention any other possibility. But then my copy of Grove is from 1929 (3rd edition, reprinted from 1927) and so clearly has not benefited from modern scholarship. Reffik (talk) 21:56, 19 July 2012 (UTC)


http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussió:Pau_Casals_i_Defilló:

Acabo de llegir l'article en la viquipedia en anglès pero el nom surt en castellà. A la pàgina de discussió ja hi han forces comentaris sobre el tema demanant al administrador que ho canvïi; davant la negativa del administrador no sé que s'hi podria fer. JacquardJacquard

L'administrador, si és que se'n pot dir així, només fa les coses per lluïr-se, va xulejar que com que havia vist en una foto la firma del mestre, com que estava signada pablo, no ho canviaria. El grup que hi havia allà, li va estar mostrant repetides probes conforme no es sentia castellà, davant que l'administrador es feia el xulo que havia vist la signatura amb el nom de pablo, se li va mostrar una carta escrita pel mestre i signada Pau Casals. Després va al·legar que si podíem aportar contractes en que es veiés el nom de Pau, se li va demanar que aportés contractes, passaports... amb el nom de Pablo, encara estem esperant que pugui demostrar que preferia abans que res, ser anomenat Pablo. Jacquard 12:07, 28 ago 2007 (CEST)

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pau_Casals:

Pau Casals
Pablo Casals o Pau Carles Salvador Casals i Defilló (El Vendrell, 29 de diciembre de 1876 - San Juan de Puerto Rico, 22 de octubre de 1973), más conocido como Pau Casals, y también como Pablo Casals en Latinoamérica y el mundo anglosajón, es uno de los músicos españoles más destacados del siglo XX. De padre español y madre puertorriqueña, Casals es considerado uno de los mejores violonchelistas de todos los tiempos.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discusión:Pau_Casals:

== Pau o Pablo ==
Legalmente su nombre era Pablo, ya que hasta que no se promulgaron las leyes de normalización linguística no se podia poner un nombre en catalán en el registro civil. (Es lamentable que haya quien diga que el catalán no ha estado perseguido, aunque hay que reconocer que la exclusiva no le corresponde a Franco) Esto explicaria porque siempre firmaba como Pablo Casals. También hay que decir que durante su exilio en latinoamérica se le conocia como Pablo Casals.

Cameta (discusión) 08:59 16 jun 2009 (UTC)

El catalan era perseguido y menospreciado. Si se mantuvo en pie fué debido a la perseverancia, valor y amor a la tierra que hemos tenido.

Milkunderwood (talk) 02:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The spanish page for Casals offers three clear examples on how he signed:

http://www.bibliographos.net/IMG/jpg/casals.jpg http://www.fritzhenle.com/ http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1961-pablo-casals-signed-autograph-candid-photo

So, if we want to mix up politics with the case, that's fine. But the case is clear: he signed as Pablo, so it doesn't seem he was bothered at all by being called that way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.62.15.91 (talk) 01:32, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

An easy solution to all of this would be to state his TRUE NAME (Pau), and then also to note that his professional name for many years was "Pablo." I think that Mestre Casals would be very upset to know that his Catalan identity were STILL being erased by Spaniards and their protectors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.212.250.144 (talk) 12:36, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

His name in English is Pablo, and this is the English Wikipedia. The article begins 'Pau' and explains. Rothorpe (talk) 18:16, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Removal of "Pau" in other articles

I just noticed El cant dels ocells ‎ (which is a Catalan-titled artice) had "Pau" changed to "Pablo" referencing this page. I see no grounds on this page for such a change so I reverted it. 20 or 30 similar changes have been made which I haven't reverted. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:39, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

The IP 131.111.185.66 made the same change again: quote: (Undid revision 596555089 by In ictu oculi (talk) Please look at the talk page of Pablo Casals: Pablo is the common name. Users will find Pau if they click for further information.) Well evidently I'm looking at the page and the IP isn't or he/she would know I just made the above comment. :unquote - WP:TITLE only refers, not surprisingly, to titles. As far as the MOS of whether to use a Spanish/Catalan name in an article on a Catalan song there are other issues to consider, such as in-page consistency. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:51, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I have already apologised for reverting your revert: I had not seen your message here and would not have done so had I known. The general tone of this page indicates that Pablo is preferable since it is his common name and used throughout music. One need only perform a quick search on Amazon to see its prevalence. I noticed an article containing Pau and changed that and subsequently changed other articles as an effort to maintain consistency. Please note that I am not involved in the whole Catalonia 'dispute' whatsoever and am approaching it from a purely musical point of view, not any kind of political one. I could understand if you wished to use Pau on an article that is explicitly to do with Catalonia, but I am unsure of doing so elsewhere. If Pau is used, though, I think it is understandable for Pablo to be used alongside, so that there is absolutely no confusion for the reader. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 23:07, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

what is used in relation to the song? In ictu oculi (talk) 23:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I have quickly gone through your link and, at least from the first page, it does not appear as if they prefer Pau. The first, second, third uses Pablo, whilst the fourth and fifth uses Pau. Note that the fifth is a book specifically about music in Catalonia, so it is perhaps biased. The sixth is a mirror of a Wikipedia page, and none of the seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth are written in English. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 23:51, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I have looked further through your link (up to the end of the fourth page) and they overwhelmingly prefer Pablo. For this reason, I have restored my edit. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 03:32, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Do you have consensus to remove "Pau" and insert for a third time "Pablo", because I don't agree - and while I only noticed the change to the song article since I created the song article and therefore it's on my watchlist, in my view sources discussing the Catalan song use the Catalan names of Catalan musicians in relation to the Catalan song - as with the link I gave you. So if you don't mind would you please not insert "Pablo" into the article until there is some consensus to ban the musician's Catalan name from every en.wikipedia article. Thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:27, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I made the edit in good faith and the edit appears to be supported by sources, which, to me, justifies my change. I would be happy to discuss this further. I am not sure what you mean about the sources you have mentioned in your previous link. I followed this link and, as I wrote above, it appears as if Pablo is used more often in relation to the song, not just generally. I cannot understand your rationale for keeping Pau when it is not commonly used for the cellist himself, it does not appear to be used often in relation to the actual piece, and it is not the name that was decided to be most appropriate for the actual article on Casals. I am not sure how valid this analogy is, but would we use only the Japanese name for an artist when discussing a Japanese work? I could imagine it being mentioned alongside, but it does not seem to make sense for it to be used by itself, as it is being used for Casals in your article. Similarly, on Wikipedia, we talk about Turin, not Torino, even though Torino is the national name, and some Italians might oppose this decision. I must ask you that you do not turn this into some kind of debate about the validity of Catalan names or anything related to this: my edit was made independent of these issues, and I would have made the same edit if it were for any other kind of language. Please do not bring Catalan politics into it. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 20:42, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Okay so based on this I will follow the Google Books and restore the Catalan name to articles directly related to Catalan culture. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:05, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

You are not following Google Books: these books use Pablo more commonly in relation to the song. You are citing a single book in your link about Catalan musicians. I have just done a Google Books search to find books focused on Catalan culture that mention Casals. Of the four that I could find, two mention Pablo and two mention Pau. I am disappointed you have not addressed any of my above points: I would have expected more from an experienced Wikipedia user. You did not discuss any of my concerns or provide any further details from external sources. Incidentally, I would be appreciative if you could tell me how to encourage other editors to state their opinions. I think it would be beneficial if more editors could participate in this, rather than just us two. Rather than reverting you, I shall attempt to come to a compromise that achieves what we both wish. I shall go through my original edits again. For those articles that appear directly related to Catalan culture (not just where there is a slight reference to Catalonia), I shall restore Pau and include a note that mentions Pablo. I hope the use of Pau will be satisfactory to you, whilst the use of Pablo will be consistent with the rest of Wikipedia and the majority of English sources elsewhere, and will be beneficial for the reader. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 20:52, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

"I shall restore Pau and include a note that mentions Pablo." Please do not. There is no consensus and you have been reverted by 2 editors. You don't seem to have understood what the Google Books show, nor do have you cited any MOS guideline. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:27, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

There is no consensus because no other editors have contributed towards this discussion. Note that there is no consensus against what I have suggested, either. Please may you explain your objection to including both names? I have explained twice what the Google Books show and you have ignored this. The books typically use Pablo and, in matters directly related to Catalonia, the usage is mixed. Do you dispute this? I can quote a section of the MOS for you now:

'For foreign names, phrases, and words generally, adopt the spellings most commonly used in English-language references for the article, unless those spellings are idiosyncratic or obsolete. If a foreign term does not appear in the article's references, adopt the spelling most commonly used in other verifiable reliable sources (for example other English-language dictionaries and encyclopedias).'

As I have explained, the sources indicate that Pablo is more common generally, and the usage of Pablo and Pau is mixed even in articles directly related to Catalonia. Going by this MOS guideline, Pablo is acceptable to be used without any mention of Pau. After considering your comments, I went back and altered some of my edits to include Pau alongside Pablo in suitable articles. I thought that was a gesture that would satisfy everyone. Instead of being understanding of what was intended to be a kind gesture, you have accused me of edit warring. I think this is unfair and does not assume good faith. I cannot help but feel as if you are being unhelpful: I have provided information that has been ignored by you and instead you assert a single viewpoint. I hope you might be able to consider this reply thoroughly and address what I have written properly. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 23:51, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Which Wikipedia articles are involved in this name dispute? Dezastru (talk) 00:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, Dezastru. I have just posted to the editor assistance page to request further help: I felt as if communication with the other user was becoming problematic. For a full list of pages that I edited, please see my contributions page. I made a series of edits that changed Pau to Pablo before I recognized any kind of opposition. The user reverted my change on El cant dels ocells. I wrongly reverted his change, not realising he had posted a message to this talk page. After I saw this, I undid my revert and replied to him. After looking through his source list, I could see that Pablo was more common, so I reinstated my revert, which I believed to be correct. The above discussion then ensued. I thought I was being sensible by suggesting my above compromise, yet the user still appears to disagree with it. This compromise constitutes my second set of editing. Almost all of these edits were made to pages that still had my original edit. The user then asserted here that he disagrees without any further elaboration. I tried to address his points and provided a quotation from the MOS. I have not heard anything since. The user posted on El cant dels ocells. The message was quite misleading and has ignored the comments I have made here. I have replied to the message to explain this to other users. Please let me know if I can provide any further information for you. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 00:21, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

there are a couple of issues here:

1. The immediate issue is that 131.111.185.66 continues to push through edits 2 or 3 times when he/she has been reverted by more than 1 other editor. Even if he/she is "right" this isn't acceptable. 131.111.185.66 also doesn't seem to see the difference between Turin (which is a city and has an English exonym) and Pau/Pablo (which is a person and has two names or both in different English sources)

2. As far as I am aware we have a general practice on en.wp where there are 2 names in use (as often happens in the Balkans) to mix and match spellings in context of the specific article - so we don't suddenly jump from Hungarian name to German name in a list of Hungarian musicians for example. The reasons for this relate to in-text-body consistency in articles. In particular this may present problems in any article that also mentions Orquestra Pau Casals. For this reason a blanket ban on all use of Pau is probably going to need an RfC. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:33, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I think your first bullet point is problematic. The only time I pushed through an edit was my first revert on El cant dels ocells. It is not correct to say that I 'continue to push through edits 2 or 3 times'. Later, I changed those pages I edited to include both names. There was no pushing through edits: I was making an edit to reinstate what you wished to have. Turin was a single example: I could give many more. Torino is still often used in English sources. I have given an MOS link above that you have not addressed. This suggests the most common name should be used, which is Pablo. I have not asked for a 'blanket ban on all use of Pau'. After seeing that some might prefer Pau to be used on Catalan-related articles, I instated Pau alongside Pablo in these articles. I made these changes but was accused of edit warring. If anything, it appears that you wish to have a 'blanket ban' on all uses of Pablo in Catalan-related articles. I must ask: do you object to Pablo being mentioned alongside Pau in these articles for the sake of clarification? This is what I have done, but you still seem unhappy with it. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 00:43, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

In answer to the question which articles are effected the articles where "Pau" has been removed can be seen here, labelled current. I think it's about 30 articles, circa 22:46, 21 February 2014

• El cant dels ocells ‎ (See talk on article page (common name).) -
• Josep Maria Corredor i Pomés ‎- reverted, but repeated (current)
• Lluïsa Vidal ‎ (current)
• École Normale de Musique de Paris ‎ (→‎Notable alumni and academics) (current)
• Conchita Badía‎ (See talk on article page (common name).) (current)
• White Terror (Spain) ‎ (→‎Fate of Republican exiles) (current)
• Ingo Goritzki ‎ (See talk on article page (common name).) (current)
• List of Presidential Medal of Freedom recipients ‎ (→‎Music) (current)
• C-32 highway (Spain) ‎ (→‎Southern section (El Vendrell-Sant Boi de Llobregat))
• Francesc Pujols ‎ (See talk on article page (common name).)
• Emánuel Moór ‎ (See talk on article page (common name).) (current)
• Catalan people ‎reverted, but repeated (current)
• Prades, Pyrénées-Orientales ‎ (→‎Notable people) (current)
• Francisco Ayala (novelist) ‎ (→‎Biography: See talk on article page (common name).) (current)
• Costa Brava ‎ (→‎Events and festivals: See talk on article page (common name).) reverted by User:Davidpar, pushed through again (current)
• Forest of Remembrance‎ (→‎Inauguration: See talk on article page (common name).)
• El Vendrell ‎ (→‎Notable people from El Vendrell) (current)
• Cadaqués ‎ (→‎People) (current)
• Alejo Carpentier ‎ (→‎Music) (current)
• Paul Tortelier ‎ (current)
• Palau de la Música Catalana ‎ (→‎Artistic history)
• List of Spaniards ‎ (→‎Classical) (current)
• Palau de la Música Catalana ‎ (→‎Lluís Millet hall)
• List of Catalans ‎ (→‎Musicians and singers: See talk on article page (common name).) reverted, but repeated (current)
• Luis A. Ferré ‎ (→‎Early life) (current)
• Artur Schnabel ‎ (→‎The Berlin years) (current)
• October 22 ‎ (→‎Deaths: See talk on article page (common name).) (current)
• Music of Catalonia ‎ (See talk on article page (common name).)
• Gold Medal of the Generalitat of Catalonia ‎ (See talk on article page (common name).)
  

I reverted only 1, El cant dels ocells‎, after discussion I had reverted 4 more Palau de la Música Catalana, List of Catalans, Francesc Pujols and Josep Maria Corredor i Pomés where forcing a Spanish name into a Catalan-titled Catalan culture article seems particularly inappropriate. 131.111.185.66 just pushes through the edit again, hence the current. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:49, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I should make a clarification to the above. For the four discussed at the bottom (Palau de la Música Catalana, List of Catalans, Francesc Pujols and Josep Maria Corredor i Pomés ), I did not push through the edit again. If I had done that, I would have removed Pau and included Pablo. Instead, I kept Pau as it was and included Pablo alongside for clarification. There is a big difference between these two situations. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 00:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

I think this can wait till tomorrow and let the other editors comment. On El cant dels ocells you made several repeat edits, on Costa Brava you just did a straight repeat edit. On these four you inserted this:

(from article Josep Maria Corredor i Pomés)........At the end of the War and with the republicans defeated, Corredor went into exile in Montpellier and finished his studies at the University there. When the Second World War ended he settled in the French Catalan city of Perpignan where he was married, had a daughter and started a prolific career as a cultural activist. Shortly he met the main figures from the Catalan exile such as Pompeu Fabra, Antoni Rovira i Virgili and Pau Casals (often known by his Spanish name, Pablo Casals) to whom Corredor became personal secretary.

Etc.

That (and the other 3) appear WP:POINTY, every Catalan has a Catalan and Spanish name. But more importantly you did not have agreement to do that. In fact you were asked not to put back Pablo. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:08, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Why do you think it appears pointy? I do not mean for it to have anything to do with the entire debate about Catalonia. It is simply the insertion of a common name to help the reader. I was only asked not to put back Pablo after I had done so. I would not have thought you could have had a problem with such edits, which kept Pau in place. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 01:14, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

The MOS passage cited above (from MOS:FOREIGN) does appear to be the governing guideline. Based on the principle outlined there, any dispute on several of the articles listed above can be resolved quickly. Luis A. Ferré, List of Presidential Medal of Freedom recipients, and Alejo Carpentier should use Pablo. Forest of Remembrance should use Pau. El cant dels ocells probably should use Pau. Dezastru (talk) 01:18, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Dezastru, thank you for your comment. I am very grateful that you have taken your time to look through this situation. Because of your suggestion for Forest of Remembrance, I have rearranged my ordering of Pablo and Pau so that Pau is more prominent. This is not necessarily a long-term solution: I have done so just so your recommendation is most adhered to in the meantime. I have a question, though, with which you might be able to help me. In articles where Pau is used, would it be inappropriate to mention the name Pablo alongside the first instance of the word so as to help the reader? I revised my edits to incorporate this, but In ictu oculi still seemed unhappy with it. I have asked Il ictu oculi below what his opinion is of this, but he has ignored my question entirely so far and instead written something irrelevant. I am surprised why this would be problematic, because it means that Pau is included whilst Pablo is there to avoid confusion. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 01:28, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

As long as the name is linked to the Wikipedia bio article, I don't know that the alternative format of the name needs to be provided parenthetically in each instance. Generally speaking, the most widely recognized name in English is Pablo Casals. It's the name preferred by Britannica.com. The Associated Press report on the inauguration of the Forest of Remembrance used Pablo (but Spanish-language news sources used Pau). Pablo also has been the predominantly recognized name in Puerto Rico. However, on articles specifically dealing with Catalan topics, it probably makes sense to use Pau. Dezastru (talk) 02:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I should clarify what I tried to write above. I wanted to ask about using Pablo once at the very first use of the word Pau and just using Pau afterwards. Is this appropriate, or do you think that Pablo should be eliminated entirely from any article that is related to Catalonia? I would have thought that one brief mention would be helpful for many. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 02:28, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I understood your question. Again, that probably is not necessary because the name is Wikilinked to a bio article about Casals, which in its first line explains that he is known as both Pablo and Pau. If Wikilinking weren't available, then a parenthetical mention of the name variant or a footnote mentioning the name variant would be very helpful in each article. But because a link to the Casals article is invariably provided, there shouldn't be any confusion if only one variant of the name is used in each of the other articles. (Note that many sources include only a single variant of his name.) Dezastru (talk) 14:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Question for Il ictu oculi

In ictur oculi, I have a suggestion through which we might be able to resolve this unfortunate situation. I have a question to ask you. Please may you answer it explicitly? From your answer, we might be able to reach some understanding. There are some Catalan related articles where Casals is mentioned. Do you oppose any mention of Pablo alongside Pau in these articles, or do you wish for Pablo not to occur on any Catalan related article? 131.111.185.66 (talk) 01:03, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I suggest you sleep on it and hear what other editors say tomorrow. Good night. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that you have not answered my question, which should have been simple to answer. I ask that you do answer, though, because I hope that, from knowing precisely what you want, we can start to resolve this. Please do not ignore this question. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 01:14, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Please understand that I am not the only editor of these articles. There have been dozens of editors involved in making the articles the way they are. As I said above I consider the main problem that your edits are always on top. The second problem is that articles need in-article consistency and context, this is a MOS issue. The third problem is that an edit like this, other than WP:MOSBIO lead looks WP:POINTY.

Pauline Viardot's performances inspired composers such as Frédéric Chopin (often known by his Polish name Fryderyk Chopin), Berlioz, Camille Saint-Saëns and Giacomo Meyerbeer,....

Now, I suggest you sleep on it and hear what other editors say tomorrow. Good night. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:22, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

In icut oculi, you have still not answered my question. Please may you do so? It is difficult to know what you want to see in the articles without you telling me properly. I am not sure what you are saying by my edits 'always being on top'. Sometimes I included Pablo before Pau and other times I included Pau before Pablo. I tried to do this in the way that was most consistent with the actual article without giving any preferential treatment. I think it is very unfair to claim that I am trying to disrupt Wikipedia: I am giving up my time, when I have many other things to be doing, in order to try and help. Your example is not comparable: the name Frédéric is by far the most common name in English for Chopin, which means that there is no need to clarify by using Fryderyk. On the other hand, Pau is not the most common name in English for Casals, which is why it is useful to clarify by using Pablo. I hope you can see this difference. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 01:37, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I forgot to say, I am not going to sleep any time soon. Regardless, I hope you have a good night too. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 01:38, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand why there is a discussion at all when an editor uses a name variant consistent with the Wikipedia article name, which is Pablo Casals. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:25, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Michael. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:18, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the current disagreement is mainly over what the term should be in the Pablo Casals article, despite the fact that the discussion is taking place on the Talk page for that article. It's on style preference for other articles, articles that happen to mention Casals. Dezastru (talk) 13:40, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

131.111.185.66. I answered the question "Do you oppose any mention of Pablo alongside Pau in these articles," above - it looks WP:POINTY, as to "do you wish for Pablo not to occur on any Catalan related article?" I have no such wish. I wouldn't care if there was a blanket ban and removal of all trace of his Catalan name, if that is what the editors who have created and worked on these articles and written "Pau" want.
Frédéric / Fryderyk is simply a formatting example, obviously the specific example doesn't have the same ratio as Pau / Pablo for various reasons including that Poland doesn't have 2 major languages, Spain does. The example could equally be Greek / Turkish, German / Czech name, Russian / Ukrainian name, etc. whatever. The basic issue here is that (1) the subject apparently is controversial - see Talk page above. And (2) that currently en.wp uses the Spanish name Pablo [site:http://en.wikipedia.org "pablo casals" -"talk" 260x "Pablo Casals"] vs 60x "Pau Casals". (these search parameters are not ideal, if anyone knows a better search go to it, but they give an idea of the proportion). This is a lot of articles, to go through so many articles at speed without discussion - or stopping to talk to the editor at Costa Brava, is not a good sign. We see this sort of thing all the time on en.wp in relation to other national/regional issues. It needs consensus. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:18, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry, I thought you were trying to say that it was 'POINTY' for Pablo to be included, not that the question I was asking was 'POINTY'. The reason I asked is that, if you were happy to have Pablo included, the problem we currently have here would not exist. The problem is that you seem unhappy for Pablo to be included on any Catalan related article, even though Pablo is used overwhelmingly in English. I am not calling for Pau to be removed everywhere: I can understand why it might be nice to use it on artices discussing Catalan culture, yet it is problematic if users do not know that Pau Casals is Pablo Casals, especially because many users would not click the hyperlink and read on unaware. I must admit to being confused by Pau when I first saw it.

I was not aware that this should even be a controversial matter: I treated it initially as any other case of common name, essentially treating Pablo Casals as a stage name and Pau as the little-known birth name. The notion of common usage is prevalent throughout Wikipedia. Please consider your previous link: https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=casals+%22El+cant+dels+ocells+%E2%80%8E%22&num=10 I have now gone through the first three pages in detail. From what I have seen, 11 use Pablo, 2 use Pau, one's usage cannot be determined (there are not enough free previews), and the others are written in a foreign language. Even in relation to the song you mentioned, Pablo appears to be more prevalent. It does not make sense to use a name that is not known by many and might cause confusion without any kind of clarification. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 20:21, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

In answer to that please see Wikipedia:MOS#Consistency_within_articles. There's a problem with your Option 2 below, does WP:MOS actually allow Option 2 to be applied? Remember that we are only talking about 30 of 305 articles. The 275 on general musical topics already had "Pablo Casals", the Castillian name. The 30 of 305 which for many years have quietly had the Catalan name are largely Catalan-culture topics, such as Palau de la Música Catalana. Whatever we may think of the balance between "Catalan" related mentions 1,050 results vs 1,730 results most of both the 1,050 books and the 1,730 have one thing in common - at least the better edited ones - they don't randomly zig zag between Catalan and Castillian names in the same sentence. If your removal of "Pau" from the remaining 30 of 305 articles is confirmed (as it seems it will be) how do the creators/contributors to these articles in future implement Wikipedia:MOS#Consistency_within_articles in articles like Palau de la Música Catalana, Music of Catalonia, [[El Vendrell]‎] Gold Medal of the Generalitat of Catalonia where all the other names are Catalan, but one Catalan is now to be written in Castillian? But it's not a question you need to answer - as you have already made the edits. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:44, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Request for comment

The cellist Pablo Casals is typically known as Pablo Casals in English texts, but as Pau Casals to Catalan speakers. The established consensus on Talk:Pablo Casals is for the article Pablo Casals to use Pablo, but the issue of which name to use on other articles has never been properly discussed. There exist some Wikipedia articles related to Catalonia that mention Casals. For some of these articles, the original editor happened to use the name Pau. My question for editors is whether the less common Pau should remain in these articles without any clarification that Pau Casals is actually the famous Pablo Casals. As far as I can see, there are three possibilities:

• Option one: change Pau to Pablo
• Option two: keep Pau and include a note that Pau Casals is Pablo Casals
• Option three: keep Pau and remove any mention of Pablo

I have included below further information about the history of the dispute, evidence confirming that Pablo is the common name and copies of relevant Wikipedia guidelines. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 22:39, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

1. History of problem

Around a week ago, I came across the name Pau Casals in a Wikipedia article. After searching, it turned out that this is the well-known Pablo Casals. There is consensus on Talk:Pablo Casals for Pablo to be used on the article because Pablo is used overwhelmingly in English. I performed a search on Wikipedia and found some pages that still used Pau and changed them in good faith to Pablo. The user User:In ictu oculi reverted my edit on El cant dels ocells and gave a Google Books search link to ask which name is more common. The link given, however, actually indicates that Pablo is used more often in English in relation to the song (see 'Evidence'). Still, the user opposed my changes ('So if you don't mind would you please not insert "Pablo" into the article until there is some consensus to ban the musician's Catalan name from every en.wikipedia article.'). I tried to discuss this further with the user, but he seemed to ignore the evidence I was presenting. Since it appeared as if he opposed my removal of Pau in Catalan-related articles, I changed my edits to include Pau alongside Pablo, explaining that Pau is his Catalan name and Pablo is his Spanish name. The other user again opposed these edits and reverted even more of them ('I reverted [these articles] where forcing a Spanish name into a Catalan-titled Catalan culture article seems particularly inappropriate'.). I asked the other user numerous times whether he opposes any use of Pablo in these articles to help the reader, whilst citing sources indicating that Pablo is the common name and related Wikipedia guidelines, but he or she refused to answer, claiming my question was 'pointy'. He or she has now stopped replying to all comments about this issue, meaning that the discussion cannot develop. I posted on WP:EAR for assistance on this issue. A helpful user (User:Spinningspark) gave me his or her advice and also suggested I post to WP:RFC. Because the other user appears unwilling to accept any of my comments or engage in further discussion, I have decided to seek suggestions through WP:RFC.

2. Evidence that Pablo Casals is the common English name

There is significant evidence that Pablo Casals is used more often to Pau Casals in English sources, both generally and in relation to more specific matters. I have provided below what I have already found. Please note that it is very difficult to rely on standard Google searches (the type that give hundreds of thousands of hits). The reason for this is that it gives many foreign sources and it cannot determine which name a source prefers if a source mentions both somewhere. For example, if one types 'Pau Casals' into www.google.co.uk, excluding the six Youtube videos (of which four use Pablo and two Pau), three websites use Pablo primarily and one uses Pau primarily, even though we are searching for Pau. Please note that the order of search results might change over time: this means that the numbers I have given below might be slightly different if they were counted again.

3.General mentions of Casals

A very quick way is to compare the number of hits we get for an Amazon music search for Pablo and Pau. Pablo gives 400 results and Pau gives 38 results:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=sr_pg_3?rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Apablo+casals&page=3&d=1&keywords=pablo+casals&ie=UTF8&qid=1393709203
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=pau+casals&rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Apau+casals
This is not completely precise, though, because results for Orquestra Pau Casals and incorrect metadata might cause some results to be over counted. A possible alternative is simply to type Casals into Amazon and to filter those results not related to the cellist Casals. I have just done this for the first four pages of results: 34 use Pablo, 1 uses Pau and 3 do not give enough information.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=casals&rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Acasals
Further, we can consider mentions of Casals in books. In Google Books, 'Pablo Casals' gives 85900 hits and 'Pau Casals' gives 17600.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=casals&hl=en&biw=1600&bih=792&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ei=hFUSU-C-HYWs7Qbu6IG4Cw&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAQ#hl=en&q=pablo+casals&tbm=bks
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=casals&hl=en&biw=1600&bih=792&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ei=hFUSU-C-HYWs7Qbu6IG4Cw&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAQ#hl=en&q=pau+casals&tbm=bks
Because of the concerns I gave for general Google searches, the reliability of these can be doubted. For this reason, I searched 'Casals' and went through the uses on the first three pages of results: 17 use Pablo, 0 use Pau and 2 do not give enough information:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=casals&hl=en&biw=1600&bih=792&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ei=hFUSU-C-HYWs7Qbu6IG4Cw&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAQ#hl=en&q=casals&tbm=bks

4. Casals and El cant dels ocells

The other user initially gave the below link to ask which name is most common when referring to El cant dels ocells:
https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=casals+%22El+cant+dels+ocells+%E2%80%8E%22&num=10
At first, one might think that Pau is more common. This is not correct, however. Firstly, many of the results are for non-English (Catalan) sources, and so should be excluded. Secondly, some results only mention Casals in the sections given on the page: one has to click on the actual book to find whether the book uses Pablo or Pau. I have looked through the first three pages of results: excluding foreign results, 11 use Pablo, 2 use Pau and 1 does not given enough information.

5. Casals and Catalonia

Because of the other user's focus on using only Pau on Catalan articles, I performed a specific search for books on Catalan musicians. I managed to find four such books written in English. Two use Pablo and two use Pau. The small sample size is problematic, but it still appears sufficient to suggest that Pablo is often used in Catalan related texts outside Wikipedia.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=R4ZESwAACAAJ&dq=casals+catalan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sqQLU7CzBsWp7AbSzYCQDg&redir_esc=y
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lwQCywAACAAJ&dq=casals+catalan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sqQLU7CzBsWp7AbSzYCQDg&redir_esc=y
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ssQhIHb-gx8C&pg=PA97&dq=casals+catalan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sqQLU7CzBsWp7AbSzYCQDg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=casals%20catalan&f=false
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VNyocuVg5m0C&pg=PA173&dq=casals+catalan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sqQLU7CzBsWp7AbSzYCQDg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=casals%20catalan&f=false

6. Wikipedia guidelines

As you know (probably better than I do), Wikipedia has some guidelines as to what should be done in these kinds of situations. I have found the following recommendations that might be relevant. Frustratingly, a lot of the description of 'common name' occurs with respect to the article title rather than the body of the article. I have still found the following, though:

• MOS:FOREIGN: 'Spell a name consistently in the title and the text of an article. ... For foreign names, phrases, and words generally, adopt the spellings most commonly used in English-language references for the article, unless those spellings are idiosyncratic or obsolete. If a foreign term does not appear in the article's references, adopt the spelling most commonly used in other verifiable reliable sources (for example other English-language dictionaries and encyclopedias).'
• WP:EN: 'If a particular name is widely used in English-language sources, then that name is generally the most appropriate, no matter what name is used by non-English sources.'
• WP:LINK: 'Do not unnecessarily make a reader chase links: if a highly technical term can be simply explained with very few words, do so. ... Don't assume that readers will be able to access a link at all, as, for example, they might have printed an article and be reading the hard copy on paper.'
• WP:SURPRISE: 'When the principle of least astonishment is successfully employed, information is understood by the reader without struggle. The average reader should not be ... surprised or overwhelmingly confused by your article.’

Many other guidelines exist that explicitly concern the use of a common name. I have not copied these here because they relate primarily to the titles of articles. They might still be relevant, however.

7. Would Casals be offended by the use of Pablo?

This seems like a silly caption, but it appears as if a lot of the opposition to Pablo is based on issues of Catalan nationalism by current users, not by the opinions of Casals himself. Whilst we do not tend to alter our usage to reflect a dead subject's preferences, hopefully mentioning this here might alleviate some concerns about Pablo causing offence. Below are links to three signatures made by Casals where he signs his name as Pablo (as posted on Talk:Pablo Casals in 2012). I must make a very important warning: the second link also contains a photograph that could be regarded by some as indecent. Please do not open the link if you would rather not see such an image.
http://www.bibliographos.net/IMG/jpg/casals.jpg
http://www.fritzhenle.com/ (the top-right photograph)
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1961-pablo-casals-signed-autograph-candid-photo
The signatures by themselves do not constitute evidence that suggest we use Pablo. I have included them merely to confirm that Casals seemingly did not oppose the use of Pablo.
131.111.185.66 (talk) 22:39, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Survey

Please post your comments below.

• This user is the user who submitted the above question and who performed the original edits.

Support option one or option two. As explained above, Pablo is the common name in English. It is reasonable to believe that very many English speakers will not realise that Pau Casals is Pablo Casals (I did not realise this until very recently, for example, and I have heard of Pablo Casals for many years). Even if a link such as Pau Casals were made, many users would not click the link. There is no excuse for obfuscating such an important relationship. The whole point of Wikipedia is to help readers, and excluding Pablo from all Catalan articles prevents this. I would not mind whether Pau is included too, as long as Pablo is there for clarification. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 22:39, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

• Comment The presentation of options is subtly biased. I mention this without any intent of impugning the motives of the RfC proposer, as I believe the RfC was opened in good faith.

Suggest reword the options as follows, with no editorial commentary included in the descriptions of the options:

• Option one: change Pau to Pablo
• Option two: keep Pau and include a note that Pau Casals is Pablo Casals
• Option three: keep Pau and do not include a note that Pau Casals is Pablo Casals Dezastru (talk) 23:37, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

• Comment There should be a fourth option:

• Option four: whether to use Pau or Pablo in a given article should be determined by the sources cited in the article Dezastru (talk) 23:39, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for assuming good faith, Dezastru. I included the editorial commentary to try and summarise the arguments given before, but, now these are given in more than enough detail immediately after the question, I have removed them. I am grateful for your recommendations. There is a problem with your suggestion for option three: some of these articles already include Pablo alongside Pau. This means option three will include the removal of Pablo from the articles, which your recommended wording does not describe. I think it is important to mention this, because there is an important difference between not including Pablo and deleting Pablo.

I am a little unsure about what you are trying to describe by your fourth option (although I am happy for it to be added if others agree it is suitable). I have looked through the five main articles in dispute, and, unfortunately, they include very few references, if any at all, that mention Casals. Without doing something like a Google Books search for each topic, it would be problematic to determine usage in such a way. The articles in question are all very similar: articles that relate to Catalan culture somehow that mention Casals somewhere. Because they are so similar, I believe it is possible to determine common usage for them collectively. Of course, your option four might have another problem: editors might add lots of sources that agree with the name they prefer just for the name to be changed (for example, I could edit an article to include lots of mentions of Pablo and so claim that the name in the article should be changed to Pablo). I hope you can understand my concerns with this option, although it should not prevent you from suggesting it if that is what you would prefer. Please let me know if you want to talk about this further. Thank you for your feedback, by the way. I am glad that this discussion can start taking its proper course. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 00:19, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

What are the 5 main articles in dispute to which you refer? Dezastru (talk) 20:48, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

The five articles to which I alluded are the five where In ictu oculi reverted the edits ('where forcing a Spanish name into a Catalan-titled Catalan culture article seems particularly inappropriate'). These are El cant dels ocells, Palau de la Música Catalana, List of Catalans, Francesc Pujols and Josep Maria Corredor i Pomés. I have just performed some Google Books searches and can report the following. All of these statistics are for English results where the usage can be determined (some results are foreign and some results are in English but I cannot find any mention of Pablo or Pau).

El cant dels ocells. This has already been discussed above. Just so it is repeated here, for the first thre pages of 'casals "El cant dels ocells"', 11 use Pablo and 2 use Pau.

Palau de la Música Catalana. On the first two pages for 'Palau de la Música Catalana casals', 8 use Pablo and 2 use Pau.

The article List of Catalans is simply a list, rather than a standard article. For this reason, it ostensibly does not mean as much to search for references. I can repeat what I wrote above, though, where, in the very specific search for English books on Catalan musicians, 2 use Pablo and 2 use Pau.

Francesc Pujols. Unfortunately, I could not find any relevant entries when searching 'Francesc Pujols casals'. Intead, on the first two pages for 'Pujols casals', 5 use Pablo and 2 use Pau.

Josep Maria Corredor i Pomés. On the first page for 'Josep Maria Corredor i Pomés casals' (the results on the second page are entirely unrelated to the search, for some reason), 2 use Pablo and 1 uses Pau.

Please let me know if you have any further questions about these. I hope it indicates to you that there appears no reason to claim that Pau is more common in English for any specific topic, no matter how closely related to Catalonia it is. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• This user is the user mentioned above who opposed the original edits.

Oppose options 1-to-3 loaded RFC, Support Option 4 per WP:ENGVAR as Dezastru - noting as Dezastru says "The presentation of options is subtly biased" - English print sources use Pablo/Pau in about 3:1 proportion related to the topic. Pablo in general musical context, Pau in relation to Catalonian music and culture. Wikipedia can do the same as print sources without a ban on Catalan names. This is what we do for other cross-cultural naming, the most discussed case being Talk:Gdansk/Vote and the same applying for British/American spellings with WP:ENGVAR where spelling follows local context of articles and sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:58, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

The problem with this is that WP:ENGVAR concerns varieties of English, such as whether we use aluminium or aluminum, whilst this is about a foreign name. The difference with Gdánsk/Danzig is that both names are used commonly in English. Note that, even in this case, the guidelines state that 'the first reference of one name in an article should also include a reference to other names' , which corresponds to option two here. Please may you provide evidence that Pau is preferred in relation to Catalonian music? Concerning the Catalan El cant dels ocells, which is the article that was the cause of dispute, Pablo is preferred 11 to 2 (see above). 131.111.185.66 (talk) 15:41, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support option 1, accept option 2, reject option 3 I have heard Maestro Casals' recordings for many years now and I did not know anything about Pau until today. The nominator has made it undeniable that Pablo is the common name in English and therefore it should be used. Other than Catalan nationalism, why would one want to use Pau? It is a disservice to the readers. In ictu oculi has mentioned WP:ENGVAR above, yet that relates to varieties of English, which the Catalan Pau is clearly not. It is essential to use the name by which Casals is known to English speakers, which is Pablo. 149.254.56.185 (talk) 13:54, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Note that this is effectively a WP:SPA, 149.254.56.185 has not edited Wikipedia in recent years. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:00, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

As an anonymous user myself, I know very well how IP addresses can be shared between multiple people over time. This user could be someone who edits Wikipedia when he sees something of note and it is likely that he has just been assigned this address whilst the previous edits are from an entirely different person. It is most important that we assume good faith here. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 09:45, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support option 1 - This is not Catalan Wikipedia, but English Wikipedia. If we were to respect the original language of others, thousands of names would have to be altered and rendered confusing or unrecognizable. I've seen unpublished letters to Casals and they never call him anything but Pablo. Even for Perpignon Festival pamphlets, it's always Pablo. -- kosboot (talk) 15:34, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Kosboot - How many unpublished letters to Casals have you seen, from whom and why should they be considered more reliable than English academic reference works, or indeed Casal's own signature on the Sony Casal's edition CDs? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:00, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

In ictu oculi, the same CD contains the typed name Pablo, as do the majority of his published recordings (see above). Also above, I have posted three links that show Casals signing his name as Pablo. In addition, also above, English academic reference works chiefly use Pablo. A user in a previous discussion remarked that The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians does so, arguably the most important of reference works concerning musicians. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 09:49, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I've seen a lot of unpublished Casals letters because I work in a major music library. I also wonder whether this survey has been invalided because the user 131.111.185.66 keeps on responding to everyone they disagree with. To me that borders on harassment. And why don't you register? -- kosboot (talk) 12:19, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Kosboot, I am extremely apologetic if you believe my approach might have come across as harassing in any kind of way imaginable. If you do think it has, or if you would like me to amend something I have written, please let me know. Almost all of my responses have been directed to In ictu oculi, since we are the two editors between whom this dispute has arisen. From what I understand, this should be a place where other editors post their opinions and discuss the issue rather than simple vote-counting. I have tried to support all of my assertions with reliable references. If you have any suggestions for me, please let me know. The reason I have not registered is because I know I would feel obliged to make more of an effort on Wikipedia if I had an account. I use Wikipedia very often and typically make small edits when I see little mistakes or consistencies. The reason why I became involved in this is because I came across Pau in an article and did not recognise it. I have considered getting an account before, but I have always come to the conclusion that it would cause me to spend more time editing than I should. My IP address is currently stable because I am using my university's computers during term time, yet my IP address changes during vacations. I understand that editing anonymously might seem strange or counterintuitive, but I hope you understand my reasoning. Thank you for all of your help so far. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 13:09, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support option 1. It is the overwhelmingly common name in English. Omitting it will inevitably leave some readers in the dark, as would using Mikołaj Kopernik instead of that astronomer's common English name. This does not mean a ban: If in context there is a useful, non-POV-pushing reason to note the Catalan name, then note it. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 15:42, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose options 1-to-3 The proposer is asking for an inflexible Wikipedia-wide rule without having established why is it essential that only a single way of handling this name be allowed for all Wikipedia articles. The options have been chosen in such a way as to directly conflict with the existing guideline, MOS:FOREIGN, which clearly says that the decision on which version of a foreign name to use should be made in the context of each individual article based on the sources for that article, not according to a single name variant ruling to be applied across the whole encyclopedia.

For foreign names, phrases, and words generally, adopt the spellings most commonly used in English-language references for the article, unless those spellings are idiosyncratic or obsolete. If a foreign term does not appear in the article's references, adopt the spelling most commonly used in other verifiable reliable sources (for example other English-language dictionaries and encyclopedias).

So the proposer's statement that "Pablo is the common name in English" is misleading, as it is a general statement about which name variant is more common in all contexts rather than in the specific contexts of individual article topics.

In addition, the proposer has not explained why it is absolutely necessary for there to be a black-and-white rule on whether to mention that Pau Casals is also known as Pablo Casals in all articles in which Pau is used. Perhaps a parenthetical note mentioning that Pau is also known as Pablo is appropriate for some articles but not necessary for other articles. Why can't such decisions be decided on a case-by-case basis, according to the context of the individual articles? Dezastru (talk) 20:43, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, Dezastru. I have actually copied that part of MOS:FOREIGN above in the section 'Wikipedia guidelines'. The reason why I have posted a general question here is that this issue affects numerous articles, and I think it would have been problematic to post this same question on every such article. If the community thinks that would be more appropriate, however, then that could be done. The important aspect of MOS:FOREIGN is adopt the spellings most commonly used in English-language references for the article. The article that has been discussed most so far is El cant dels ocells. Even in this Catalan-related article, Pablo is preferred 11 to 2 (see the 'Evidence' section above). In other words, regardless of the actual topic were Casals is mentioned, Pablo is more prominent in English. If you can think of a place where this is not true, please let me know. The general prevalence of Pablo over Pau in these topics is the reason why it seems possible to have a general guideline for usage. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 21:13, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Due to a previous comment by Dezastru, I have performed similar searches for the four other articles that have been specifically mentioned so far. The results are given in more detail above. Just so that it is noted here, for the other Catalan-related articles, there is no evidence that Pau is more common than Pablo: if anything, the converse is true. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support option 1. – Pablo Casals has only one well-known name in English, and that's what we should be using. The alternative name can be mentioned, or used in quotes, but is not what we should use to refer to him. In many cases, just saying Casals will be OK, too. Dicklyon (talk) 00:07, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Dicklyon, looking at sources I think it may still be true that Pablo Casals only has one well-known name in American English, but European English is these days more accustomed to Catalan place and people names, and Catalan language itself, as a result of the regionalisation of the EU. Among the 3,340 results for "Pau Casals" in English books since 1990 the first hit Encyclopedia of Contemporary Spanish Culture 1999 is edited by professor Eamonn J Rodgers of the University of Strathclyde (soon to become Srath Chluaidh in an independent Scotland perhaps). Some of those are hits for Orquestra Pau Casals of course. British sources naturally picked up on Franco-era repression and xenophobia against Catalan names, but that doesn't appear to be the case today; when Encyclopedia of Contemporary Spanish Culture has an entry under "Casals, Pau". and doesn't even mention Pablo it seems strange for en.wikipedia to be introducing a Franco-era type ban on the name of one of the most famous Catalans.

"They formed the embryo of the Orquestra Pau Casals. It was natural for me to use the Catalan name "Pau" in preference to the Spanish "Pablo." When I was young, it was still the custom in Catalonia to use Spanish baptismal names. And so I'd been called Pablo. But I later came to much prefer my Catalan name — Catalan, after all, is the true language of my people. More than once I'd told my managers I wanted to use the name "Pau" in my concert tours. But they'd argue, "Audiences have come to think of you as Pablo Casals. Nobody will know who Pau Casals is." But now, in naming my own orchestra, I no longer felt under this restriction."." Casals' autobiography Joys and sorrows 1974 p.154

We don't respect Casal's wishes in the title of his bio because of WP:COMMONNAME. That is one thing, but WP:ENGVAR goes against a blanket ban on the name used in many English sources in our Catalan culture articles. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:53, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Do you have any sources for your unsupported assertion that Pau is more common in European English? From all of the evidence gathered so far, Pablo is far more common. Once again, incidentally, WP:ENGVAR is about variants of English, and this is not an English name. Out of interest, let us go through the top ten results in your search for ' "pau casals" '

Results one and two: Encyclopedia of Contemporary Spanish Culture. Uses Pau.

Result three: HTML for the World Wide Web. Not a very relevant result at all, but uses both Pablo and Pau.

Result four: The 20th Century A-GI: Dictionary of World Biography . Uses Pablo.

Result five: Alberto Ginastera: A Research and Information Guide - Page 84. Uses Pablo.

Result six: Orchestral Music: A Handbook. Does not use either.

Result seven: 100 Hispanics You Should Know. Uses Pablo.

Result eight: Doves of War: Four Women of Spain. Uses both Pablo and Pau.

Result nine: Unusual World Coins. Not very relevant, but uses Pau.

Result ten: Spain and Portugal: A Reference Guide from the Renaissance. Uses Pablo.

Even in your specific search for results for Pau Casals, Pablo comes up more often. I am unconvinced that you can justify that Pau is somehow common.

On an unrelated note, please note that this discussion should have nothing to do with 'Franco era repression and xenophobia': it is about common English usage and the style that Wikipedia should use. Not following WP:NPOV will causes problems. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 10:05, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Comment. There is currently a discussion at WP:ANI concerning the editing of In ictu oculi, in particular, his references to specific Catalan politics that are unrelated to this request for comments. I hope that this discussion can continue in a neutral manner, ignoring any kind of personal feelings, political or not. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 10:31, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I said may be, a look through the authors of books using the Catalan name since 1990, suggests that the use of the Catalan name is relatively more common in books published in Europe since 1990, than in America since 1990, perhaps given the use of Catalan in the EU, and use of Spanish in America. I could be wrong. As to the Franco era attitude to Catalan names I'm making an observation of an issue that is well documented in sources: see Google Book results Franco "catalan names". As to your own observation "but it is starting to become apparent that he is pushing a pro-Catalan viewpoint, as much as I hate to make such allegations." ... in context of "Catalan" since 1990 1050 results vs 1,730 results indicates a 1050:1730 preference for one over the other. It doesn't indicates 100% use of one. This has been said before. Bear in mind that User:Dezastru's Option 4 is just about allowing "Pau" in a minority of articles (which I support), whereas your Option 1 is a blanket ban on all and any uses of Pau, undoing the work of dozens of editors in almost all the major Catalan culture articles. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:23, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I want to thank you for your helpful reply, In ictu oculi. I can understand your reasoning for your assertion and the associated uncertainty, but I cannot see that Pau is so much more popular in Europe that it could be considered to be a common name or even recognisable to many English speakers. For some reason, the search result hits do not appear on my computer, but I trust you have given them correctly. Even in this specific Catalan search, Pablo still apparently comes up more often. Of course we do have to be careful with comparing hits like that, because many books that appear do not correspond to the search input (which is why I have previously gone through search listings one by one). I am aware that controversy exists concerning Catalonia and Franco. I was trying to emphasise that we should not be basing our discussion or decision here on this type of political issue. It is inevitable that politics can cause heated debates and problems with any kind of discussion. It is important that we ignore that and use a neutral point of view to come to a conclusion about the usage of Pablo and Pau in English, without any type of underlying political consideration. I just want you to know my feelings regarding your final sentence. I have absolutely no desire that Pau is removed from Wikipedia. I made the original edits in good faith and, after reading how strongly you felt about including Pau in Catalan-related articles, I restored it. I understand that some users would wish Pau to be used in these articles, which is why I have supported option two above (not just option one). My whole reasoning for requesting comments from other editors is that I believe it is important that Pablo is also included, simply because Pau is unusual for so many English speakers. I would happily change one of these articles so that it uses Pau throughout but also includes a tiny note next to the first mention of Pau (essentially option two), in the same way that the guidelines for the Gdánsk/Danzig situation specify. Because you also opposed this solution, I inserted this request for comments to get advice from the general community. I added option one because it seems like a reasonable possibility and not because it is what I prefer. I am simply arguing for the inclusion of Pablo to help readers and I would be satisfied with using Pau throughout a Catalan article. I am not sure what you mean by 'undoing the work of dozens of editors in almost all the major Catalan culture articles'. None of this work would be done: the request only deals with the name used for one person in the article. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 13:31, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

So are you now supporting Option 2 or option 4? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:30, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I support both option one and option two: I do not mind what is done as long as Pablo is added for clarity. I would be happy if we omitted Pau altogether because it is not common usage in English (option one) and I would be happy if we included Pau in Catalan-related articles but also made it clear that Pau is Pablo (option two). My opposition is solely to writing Pau without any mention of the common name. As I have explained above (see 00:19 on 2 March), option four, as worded by Dezastru, is problematic. Determining usage solely by the sources cited in the article might incite some editors to add unnecessarily many references that agree with their own preference, which will cause trouble and disruption. If there is an article where Pau is predominant (although I do not think anyone has found such an article yet), then my other problem with option four is that, as worded, it suggests that only Pau will be included. I hope this has explained my preferences (please let me know if it has not). 131.111.185.66 (talk) 16:41, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support Option 1 Casals may have been Pau at home, but he is Pablo on his recordings in the English speaking world. (Including the one 78 I have of him - I'm not a great fan of the cello repertoire.) The Catalan WP can call him Pau - that's not our problem. Stage names aren't the same as home names. Examples? Reginald Dwight, Harry Webb, Marshall Mathers, and Albert Frederick Arthur George (better known as King George V). Peridon (talk) 10:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
• Support option 2 – This allows both names to be mentioned while keeping factual accuracy. Epicgenius (talk) 15:15, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
• Support option 1 - "Pablo" is the common name in English of this artist, the only way he was known to the general public, and the use of any other name would be confusing to the reader. "Pau" should be reserved only for use in direct quotation. (Of course, it goes without saying that this article can explain the circumstances under which he was known as "Pau".) Using "Pau" would be the equivalent of referring to playwright A. R. Gurney as "Pete", the name he is known by to his family, friends and co-workers. BMK (talk) 16:54, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
• Support option 1. Option 2 is far too clumsy. There may be rare cases in which the use of Pau is appropriate (quotations, most obviously). Readers should not be confused. Paul B (talk) 18:42, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
• Support option 1. #2 might work better for me if it were to keep Pablo and note that his birth/native name is Pau. #3 is right out per WP:ENGVAR/WP:COMMONNAME. This is English Wikipedia. Catalan Wikipedia rightly calls the article Pau Casals, just as Chinese Wikipedia rightly calls the article 帕布罗·卡萨尔斯: it's how the individual is called in that language. While I doubt that most of the other Wikipedias' variations (a large number of others use Pau, though a few holdouts have stuck with Pablo) have done the intensive investigation into the naming issue that we have here, it's just common sense that on Wikipedia you represent the name of something in the manner best supported by the sources, whether a person's name (with BLP concerns being a very narrow category of exceptions), or the name of a fruit (e.g., apple vs. manzana). While I personally find the facts behind Spanish oppression of the Catalan language and culture tremendously tragic, this cannot affect how we present cases like Casals, where there's no clear indication he made an issue of it during his life. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 21:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Mendaliv, hi. As I understand it MOS:TIES doesn't relate to Casals' own frustrations and attempts to use his Catalan name, MOS:TIES relates to WP:RS as they are now (say from 1990 in e.g. 59 results vs 49 results) at least this is how we seem to apply MOS:TIES to Irish and Czech names. The reason that 10% (30 of 305) articles had "Pau" instead of "Pablo" prior to 131.111.185.66's removal of "Pau" in that 10%, was a product of article creators/builders following MOS:TIES in that those 10% were articles about Catalan culture/nationalism not generic classical music articles. (...in addition to the WP:ARTCON problem with zig zags noted at the end of the section above the RfC). Although it's clear that the consensus of the RFC is to uphold 131.111.185.66's removal of "Pau" from those 10% of articles, the MOS:TIES and WP:ARTCON guidelines mean that future article editors will probably unknowingly create and edit articles which follow English sources using "Pau". How do we intend to police the inevitable re-occurrence of "Pau" after this RfC? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:14, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Well first, I don't agree that MOS:TIES dictates that outcome: that portion of the guideline has to do with what English variant we use depends on whether there are strong national ties to a particular English variant. As far as I know, any variation in what name different English speakers use to refer to Casals is independent of what national variant of English they speak. My point in disqualifying option #3 might be better expressed as a logical extension of the policy behind ENGVAR, and again, perhaps more properly be called an application of COMMONNAME. We should use the common name in English for Casals, just as we use the common name in English in the article on pineapple (though we also use the scientific binomial where appropriate, just as we introduce Casals full birth name). As to how the consensus emerging here might be enforced, and future articles be kept in line, the solution is the same as for any other issue of applying past consensus on Wikipedia: where someone notices something that varies from consensus, that person should BOLDly bring that article in line with consensus. There is no deadline, so it's not a problem if it's not instantaneous. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 08:38, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Of course I meant that WikiProject Spain editors (be they Catalan, Castillian, Basque or Anglo) were applying the spirit/logic of MOS:TIES in English sources (which is why I mentiond 59 results vs 49 results) but it could easily have been said for Czech/German etc. As long as future article creators and contributors are not dissuaded from growing the encyclopedia by this action, there shouldn't be a problem. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:55, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose option 1 per neutral point of view, favor option 2 (maybe reversed, i.e. keep Pablo but use Pau as clarification). It's clear that there are political issues involved in every subject related to Catalan language under the Franco regime; that English sources in that era adopted the common Spanish name was a consequence of the Catalan language repression, so WP:POVNAMING is applicable here - it's OK to use the common recognizable name in English, but it should not be the only use. Using only Pablo would be not neutral, and it would hinder recognition by a world-wide audience; I live in Spain, I am not Catalan, and I had never heard of the name "Pablo Casals" - the Catalan name is universally used here, and I would have had doubts that it was the same musician (in fact I had to check it was the same person when seeing this RfC), as the Spanish name is largely abandoned (I find it credible that it's the same case in European English usage). Diego (talk) 13:37, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
• Support option 1 This is English WP and the rules are pretty clear. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:58, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
• Mostly support option 1 - while I'm not against identifying him as Pau if appropriate, the vast majority of English references refer to him as Pablo. See above note on Copernicus. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:56, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
• Option 2 Option 1 would work in most cases, when the reference is from the mid-century onwards, but there are earlier cases where option one would be flat-out wrong. Early in the 20th century Casals recorded under both names and this elicited commentary using both names. It wasn't until his popularity increased that the recording name "Pablo" became popular and Pau was lost. When discussing this early time period it would be wrong to erase the name Pau. For example, many of the HMV recordings, including the famous run of Bach Suites, was originally released under "Pau Casals". Removing this note would cover up a little nuance of history which we should be explaining, not smoothing over. As an aside, this smoothing over of history is part of why I am bothered by the "use common name" philosophy. ThemFromSpace 21:53, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

If one looks at any number of WP entries with people who changed their names, consistency appears to be the main criteria, not a reflection of who they are at any point in their lifetimes. See Stokely Carmichael, Yusuf Islam, Lady Gaga, Renée Richards and any number of transgender people for starters. -- kosboot (talk) 23:03, 4 March 2014 (UTC)