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Mirboj (talk | contribs)
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I know this was discussed before so I'll explain myself differently. When discussing the topic of abortion we must take the whole world into consideration and look into what laws are in effect and what is actually practiced in all countries. The lead of this article '''states abortion is performed before viability (set at the 28th week)''' but is that always the case all over the world? Fetuses born prior to the 28th week may, in many occasions, survive. You may argue they may only survive with medical assistance but fetuses born at the 28th week or even the 30th week would need such medical assistance too. [[User:Israell|Israell]] ([[User talk:Israell|talk]]) 17:29, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
I know this was discussed before so I'll explain myself differently. When discussing the topic of abortion we must take the whole world into consideration and look into what laws are in effect and what is actually practiced in all countries. The lead of this article '''states abortion is performed before viability (set at the 28th week)''' but is that always the case all over the world? Fetuses born prior to the 28th week may, in many occasions, survive. You may argue they may only survive with medical assistance but fetuses born at the 28th week or even the 30th week would need such medical assistance too. [[User:Israell|Israell]] ([[User talk:Israell|talk]]) 17:29, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
:The use of 'viability' here is actually from medical texts--it's the overwhelmingly most common medical defn. of abortion, and is indeed used worldwide. Legal standards on when abortion may be performed (if at all) do indeed vary, but the medical defn. is quite well accepted. Note that the lead itself says nothing about 28 weeks, and the number given is usually around 24 weeks (and/or a certain weight) for viability as a purely medical matter. See [[Fetal viability]]. [[User:JJL|JJL]] ([[User talk:JJL|talk]]) 18:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
:The use of 'viability' here is actually from medical texts--it's the overwhelmingly most common medical defn. of abortion, and is indeed used worldwide. Legal standards on when abortion may be performed (if at all) do indeed vary, but the medical defn. is quite well accepted. Note that the lead itself says nothing about 28 weeks, and the number given is usually around 24 weeks (and/or a certain weight) for viability as a purely medical matter. See [[Fetal viability]]. [[User:JJL|JJL]] ([[User talk:JJL|talk]]) 18:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
::How then is the term used when applied to late-term abortions or 3rd trimester abortions? Many of the refs in the note make no mention of viability in the definition. It appears that an exclusive vs. inclusive definition was chosen for the lede.[[User:Mirboj|Mirboj]] ([[User talk:Mirboj|talk]]) 04:47, 10 March 2014 (UTC)


== Annual number of deaths discrepancy ==
== Annual number of deaths discrepancy ==

Revision as of 04:47, 10 March 2014

Former good articleAbortion was one of the Natural sciences good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 26, 2006Good article nomineeListed
January 14, 2008Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Template:Vital article

Template:Rational

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Notable precedents in discussion

Should this article focus on the term abortion to mean induced abortion?

Given the main focus of content in the article is primarily related to induced abortions rather than abortions in general (sponatneous abortion) and covering many topics incompatible with spontaneous abortion from issues outside the field of medicine... Should the two subsections on sponatneous abortion be removed and have a redirect on miscarriage placed for information regarding sponatenous abortions?Nickmxp (talk) 06:10, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose suggested change The article is well balanced the way it is. We need to deal with the different aspects of a term here as it puts the topic into context. We follow the lead of the best available sources which we currently do. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:20, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support- I feel in terms of style this article is primarily about induced abortions, if the topic is to be all encompassing on the aspects of abortion in the general sense then undue weight is being given on the issue of induced abortions. of course the problem at the moment is that this article is primarily about induced abortions (and rightfully so given that the term "abortion" when unspecified is understood to mean an induced abortion in many areas outside the field of medicine that are covered in this article) and this topic structure makes the subsection and a half that refers to spontaneous abortion undue...Nickmxp (talk) 06:26, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very weak oppose - I see the value in both, but I feel the article is fine the way it is. A few section could use "see also", but otherwise it seems well balanced. The bulk of the article is clearly induced abortion, reflecting the general use of the term "abortion" I noted in the previous section. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:41, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This request exists because until a few days ago some editors had not heard of "spontaneous abortion", so they need to believe it's uncommon globally, and not just in the circles they move in. "Spontaneous abortion" is a very real thing and very real language. It's not just medical jargon. (I'm no medico, and I'm familiar with it!) Removing it from this article is dumbing down the encyclopaedia. I will never support that. HiLo48 (talk) 06:47, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I did just suggest another way to do it, at the end of the section just above:
I submit that we need three abortion articles. First a relatively short "parent" article called Abortion. Then two forks: Abortion (spontaneous) Miscarriage and Abortion (induced). --Hordaland (talk) 18:29, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hence my use of "another" way. I'd prefer the standard wp approach of a disambiguation page for the ambiguous term, then unambiguous pages "Miscarriage", "Induced abortion", etc. each with a hat note "This article is about the spontaneous/induced termination of pregnancy. For other uses please see Abortion (disambiguation)". But I'm looking for whatever can be made to work. LeadSongDog come howl! 01:59, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose this particular way of addressing the issue. Neither form of abortion is less a form of it than the other. A split is reasonable but I'd prefer a brief main article followed by two split-out articles...assuming the main article could be kept brief, which concerns me. JJL (talk) 18:37, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not unreasonable. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:47, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Suitable starting point? Abortion (General). Nickmxp (talk) 02:34, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The distinction is an important one and needs to be made clear to people. We should not be dumbing down articles so that they reflect a misunderstanding. They should be providing the correct information.QuizzicalBee (talk) 22:59, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Spontaneous abortion is already covered under miscarriage and strong disambiguation in the lede would help people find the right article. This hasn't come about because of people having not heard of spontaneous abortion, it comes about because the articles should reflect what people are looking for information on. Happy with the three way split (although it seems clumsy). This isn't about dumbing down, or creating misunderstanding, but there are two distinct concepts - induced abortion is very different to spontaneous abortion, and each has clear scope for its own article. Conflating two ideas in one article does not do service to either concept. OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 07:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Article currently seems seems well-balanced, neutral, and clear. I don't see any strong evidence of undue coverage or fringe usage of the term. It looks fine as-is, though certain aspects could conceivably be spun off. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:36, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I hope this doesnt come off as defensive but...can anyone here list one fact about abortion in general that is in this article? That is a fact, about neither induced nor spontaneous abortions, but abortions in general ...as for evidence of fringe use, I ask how many times does the article mention the word abortion without specifying induced in the context of general abortions.. as for evidence of primarily a medical term I'll again point to this article's own exhaustive list of definitions for the term abortion which shows that most medical encyclopedias and dictionaries define it one way and most non medical encyclopedia and dictionaries define it another way...as for undue coverage, spontaneous abortions in humans don't even have a section ...this is a pretty well balanced article on induced abortions and that is the rationale for this suggestion...Nickmxp (talk) 02:22, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • ,OPPOSE Oppose. I have spent many hours on this article. It is perhaps one of the most difficult WP articles of all. I have read nothing new in this latest string of posts that would make me decide that there is a better way to handle it. Gandydancer (talk) 18:53, 13 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    No need to shout. If we are to take your "OPPOSE" literally then you emphatically oppose the existing state of the article, which is focussed on induced abortion, and instead want it to change and be inclusive of spontaneous abortion. Yet your following statement would imply the reverse. Which is it? LeadSongDog come howl! 22:30, 13 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I did not mean to shout and have struck the caps version. I oppose any changes at this time. Gandydancer (talk) 22:51, 13 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can tell you not too much time has been spent on Abortions in general in this article... where is information about complete and missed abortions? cumilative statistics on abortions in general?(doing rough math it would seem like almost half of all pregnancies end in some type of an abortion) I don't see what makes this article any different than any other article on wikipedia, It should be well sourced, nuetral and on topic... I don't think two out of three should be considered good enough...Nickmxp (talk) 03:34, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Country-specific text

This article is about abortion, not abortion in the United States. Text that is relatively detailed and country-specific keeps getting added to this article from time to time. The most recent example is this (which I have just removed - it was also in the wrong section of the article in any case):

The abortion rate in the United States dropped to its lowest point since the Supreme Court legalized the procedure. According to a new study performed by Guttmacher Institute, long-acting contraceptive methods are having a significant impact in reducing unwanted pregnancies. According to a paper published in 2011 by Guttmacher Institute, there were fewer than 17 abortions for every 1,000 women of child-bearing age. That is a 13 percent decrease from 2008's numbers and slightly higher that the rate in 1973, when the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision legalized abortion. The study, released 3 February 2014, showed "after a plateau from 2005 to 2008, the long-term decline in the abortion rate has resumed. The rate has dropped significantly from its all-time high in 1981, when there were roughly 30 abortions for every 1,000 women of reproductive age. The overall number of abortions also fell 13 percent from 2008 to nearly 1.1 million in 2011." The report is expected to be publish in the journal Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health. In a different study conducted in 2013 by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention the results were very similar; they found a decline in abortion rates after the plateau from 2005 to 2008.[1][2][3][4]

I don't doubt editors' good intentions, but we must keep the article focussed on its subject and not get weighed down in undue detail on particular points. Happy to discuss here. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hamiltonstone, I completely agree with what you are saying and I do not have a problem with your removal of my recently added text. The content I added belongs on the Abortion in the United States page. However, if we are going to keep the article focussed on its subject, "a global perspective on abortion," then wouldn't you agree we need to remain consistent throughout the whole article? There are multiple times when the US is referenced when we are trying to stay away from country-specific content. Below are a couple examples.
  • In the US, the risk of maternal death from abortion is 0.6 per 100,000 procedures, making abortion about 14 times safer than childbirth (8.8 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births).[5][6]
  • The Guttmacher Institute estimated there were 2,200 intact dilation and extraction procedures in the US during 2000; this accounts for 0.17% of the total number of abortions performed that year.[7]
  • In the US, abortion was more dangerous than childbirth until about 1930 when incremental improvements in abortion procedures relative to childbirth made abortion safer. By 1930, medical procedures in the US had improved for both childbirth and abortion but not equally, and induced abortion in the first trimester had become safer than childbirth. In 1973, Roe vs. Wade acknowledged that abortion in the first trimester was safer than childbirth.
This is well-reseached and credible information that deserves to be on Wikipedia but I'm not sure if this article is the place for it. We can't be selective with what we allow and what we don't allow on the page - we need to be consistent. Let me hear you thoughts. Thanks! Meatsgains (talk) 16:59, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We need to say something about the safety of induced abortion in the lead, per WP:LEAD, and these are the most relevant sources I've found. (If there are better or more global ones, or if you have other suggestions for how to present information on the safety of abortion concisely in the lead, then please feel free to present them). I think that a single sentence is probably reasonable on abortion incidence in the US (as opposed to the detail-laden paragraph above), but I also think that there are good sources describing global trends in abortion incidence which would be more appropriate for this article. MastCell Talk 17:28, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If we do talk about safety, then we need to distinguish between abortions performed by medical professionals and those not performed by medical professionals, since so many are not performed by medical professionals when abortion is illegal. It will be misleading to just say that abortion is safer than childbirth because it will imply that any abortion is safer, when in fact abortion as performed outside the law is quite dangerous.QuizzicalBee (talk) 23:24, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely. Fortunately, the article mentions this distinction both in the lead ("Abortion, when induced in the developed world in accordance with local law, is among the safest procedures in medicine.[1] However, unsafe abortions result in approximately 70,000 maternal deaths and 5 million hospital admissions per year globally.") and at greater length in the body (see Abortion#Safety, where the first sentence explicitly contrasts safe vs. unsafe abortion). The section Abortion#Unsafe abortion further expands on this distinction. MastCell Talk 01:23, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Just going back to Meatsgains comment above, I agree with Mastcell's response: where the only data we have is from a single country, we should include it if it is a key type of information in relation to the subject, but replacing them once we find global or multi-country data would also be a good idea. Cheers, hamiltonstone (talk) 11:23, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Question of Viability

I know this was discussed before so I'll explain myself differently. When discussing the topic of abortion we must take the whole world into consideration and look into what laws are in effect and what is actually practiced in all countries. The lead of this article states abortion is performed before viability (set at the 28th week) but is that always the case all over the world? Fetuses born prior to the 28th week may, in many occasions, survive. You may argue they may only survive with medical assistance but fetuses born at the 28th week or even the 30th week would need such medical assistance too. Israell (talk) 17:29, 13 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The use of 'viability' here is actually from medical texts--it's the overwhelmingly most common medical defn. of abortion, and is indeed used worldwide. Legal standards on when abortion may be performed (if at all) do indeed vary, but the medical defn. is quite well accepted. Note that the lead itself says nothing about 28 weeks, and the number given is usually around 24 weeks (and/or a certain weight) for viability as a purely medical matter. See Fetal viability. JJL (talk) 18:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
How then is the term used when applied to late-term abortions or 3rd trimester abortions? Many of the refs in the note make no mention of viability in the definition. It appears that an exclusive vs. inclusive definition was chosen for the lede.Mirboj (talk) 04:47, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Annual number of deaths discrepancy

The lead currently says "However, unsafe abortions result in approximately 70,000 maternal deaths and 5 million hospital admissions per year globally.[2]" while the body of the article says "Unsafe abortions are believed to result in millions of injuries[1][68] and approximately 37,100 deaths annually as of 2010,[69] accounting for 13% of all maternal deaths.[70] This is down from 56,100 deaths in 1990.,[69]"

I haven't taken a close look, but all of the sources appear to be of pretty high quality. I don't have time right now, but if one of you does, would you be able to look into why the numbers vary by almost a factor of two? NW (Talk) 00:11, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch NW. I have taken a look at those sources that I can fully access, including the latest WHO report on the subject, which was not included in the article. I have dropped the 2010 estimate because it comes from a very broad study of all causes of mortality globally - i have favoured reports that specialise in this specific topic. I then revised the figure in the lead, to the one from WHO's latest report, and which apparently reflects a new methodology underpinning the estimates.hamiltonstone (talk) 05:19, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The GBD is one of the largest epidemiological efforts ever. Have updated the lead with a 2014 review from the BMJ. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:21, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Somashekhar, Sandhya (2 February 2014). "Study: Abortion rate at lowest point since 1973". Washington Post. Retrieved 3 February 2014.
  2. ^ Moon, Angela (2 February 2014). "U.S. abortion rate hits lowest level since 1973: study". Reuters. Retrieved 3 February 2014.
  3. ^ Bassett, Laura (2 February 2014). "U.S. Abortion Rate Hits Lowest Point Since 1973". Huffington Post. Retrieved 3 February 2014.
  4. ^ Jayson, Sharon (2 February 2014). "Abortion rate at lowest level since 1973". USA Today. Retrieved 3 February 2014.
  5. ^ Raymond, E. G.; Grimes, D. A. (2012). "The Comparative Safety of Legal Induced Abortion and Childbirth in the United States". Obstetrics & Gynecology. 119 (2, Part 1): 215–219. doi:10.1097/AOG.0b013e31823fe923. PMID 22270271.
  6. ^ Grimes DA (January 2006). "Estimation of pregnancy-related mortality risk by pregnancy outcome, United States, 1991 to 1999". Am. J. Obstet. Gynecol. 194 (1): 92–4. doi:10.1016/j.ajog.2005.06.070. PMID 16389015.
  7. ^ Finer, L. B.; Henshaw, S. K. (2003). "Abortion Incidence and Services in the United States in 2000". Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health. 35 (1): 6–15. doi:10.1363/3500603. PMID 12602752.
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