Talk:Norman Finkelstein

Edit request November 2013

Please add this article to the category "Children of Holocaust survivors". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.73.23.229 (talk) 18:55, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2013

Two of the references are dead links. Here are fixes

ref 47 please change Alan Dershowitz and Alexander Cockburn (October 2003). "Dershowitz vs. Cockburn (including exchange of letters)". www.normanfinkelstein.com. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help) to Alan Dershowitz and Alexander Cockburn (October 2003). "Dershowitz vs. Cockburn (including exchange of letters)". www.normanfinkelstein.com. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

ref 50: I can't find a page that has both Menetrez's original post and the following exchanges with Dershowitz.

Please change Frank J. Menetrez; et al. (July 6, 2007). "Dershowitz vs. Finkelstein: Who's Right and Who's Wrong?". www.normanfinkelstein.com, including e-mails attributed to Alan Dershowitz and remarks additional to the original article attributed to Menetrez. {{cite web}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help) to Frank J. Menetrez; et al. (July 6, 2007). "Dershowitz vs. Finkelstein: Who's Right and Who's Wrong?". www.normanfinkelstein.com. {{cite web}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

Rbehrouzi (talk) 14:21, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Done. Thank you for those. I have also removed the quotation "Dershowitz is deliberately misrepresenting what Finkelstein wrote".[49][50], since those words are in neither source. I have paraphrased instead. Finally, FN49 was inaccurate to list the Beyond Chutzpah ... book as being by Menetrez. The book is by Finkelstein and includes the Menetrez article as an epilogue. I have corrected the citation. --Stfg (talk) 15:44, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Please somebody search the main article for the term 'oing' and change into 'ing'. Why is it so hard to send an email pertaining to this simple edit? You guys have too high opinions of yourselves. I know it's a controversial topic, but there has to be a better way for people that just propose good-willing spelling/grammatics edits. Wheee. Now that that's out of my system, would appreciate a mail back telling me the edit's been done. bjd AT xs4all.nl. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.95.236.142 (talk) 02:50, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Edit Request January 2014

There is a sentence under the heading "Hezbollah and Hamas" that reads "While condemning the targeting of civilians to achieve a political goal, Finkelstein has stated he believes Hezbollah has the right to target Israeli civilians if Israel targets civilians". It refers to fn83.

1. The footnote returns a 404 Error. The interview to which the passage refers can also be found here.

2. Perhaps the quote should be given in full, since this is a statement which requires contextualisation. Finkelstein says, "It is impossible to justify terrorism, which is the targeting of civilians to achieve a political goal. But it's also difficult to make categorical statements of the kind you suggest. I do believe that Hezbollah has the right to target Israeli civilians if Israel persists in targeting civilians until Israel ceases its terrorist acts."

The current summary says that Finkelstein 'condemns' the targeting of civilians. However, his actual claim is that it is 'impossible to justify' the targeting of civilians, which is quite a bit stronger. He goes on to say that Hezbollah has the right to target civilians. To say that a person or organisation has a 'right' to perform an action can naturally be taken as a justification for their performing that action. If so, then Finkelstein's remark is a blatant contradiction. If not, at the very least it is a controversial statement that should be presented in context. 110.175.237.225 (talk) 04:01, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

The current version was the result of considerable discussion (see here) and is unlikely to change without encouraging an edit war. I don't see a contradiction as Finkelstein saying they have the right is not the same as thinking it is justified. He still believes it is wrong. Wayne (talk) 10:18, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Statements on BDS

The currently worded characterization of his statements on the BDS movement are inaccurate - while he has certainly been critical, his actual statements are far more nuanced and do not support the characterization of the published synopsis (some of his exasperation, which leaked into the comments, was with the interviewer). It seems that the published characterization is lifted from a partisan source.

It is clear from watching the taped interview where the quoted statements were made that Finkelstein was referring not to boycotts of businesses in illegal settlements, but specifically to the support by the group that was interviewing him of a one-state solution (Finkelstein supports two-state solution) , which he believes would destroy Israel as a Jewish state by creating a single state with an Arab majority.

Statements on Israel and Israelis

Regarding the section on Israel, Avi Shlaim is an excellent high quality third party source to succinctly describe Finkelstein's critique of Israel and give his considered academic appraisal of the critique.

It is not a "coatrack". Finkelstein is an academic, and Shlaim is giving us his academic assessment of Finkelstein's research on Israel. Finkelstein's research is is central to the topic of the article - that is why he is notable. I'm not really sure what is going on here, we can't discuss an issue central to the topic by a high quality academic source because it includes some material about Israel that certain editors do not like? Dlv999 (talk) 04:05, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Shlaim's quote is from an interview he gave to "Democracy Now" - that doesn't strike me as an academic venue. As Shlaim is both an activist as well as an historian, I'd say his opinion, as expressed in an outlet that skews heavily left is more an expression of his activism, rather than his professional capacity. Brad Dyer (talk) 15:45, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

He is emeritus professor of International Relations at the University of Oxford. He was interviewed by Democracy now to discuss Finkelstein's scholarship due to his academic reputation in the field relevant to Finkelstein's work. Shlaim was one of the academics that peer reviewed Finkelstein's book Beyond Chutzpah for it's publisher University of California Press. So is probably about the best source you could ask for for an appraisal of that research (Shlaim's peer review for the University of California press has been published by the Journal of Palestine Studies so we could probably expand the Shlaim comments based on his peer review of the work). I'm not aware that Shlaim is regarded as an "activist" by RS. I wonder what RS you could produce to support your claim. Dlv999 (talk) 17:00, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

This is nothing more than your opinion. Academic reviews and scholarship are found in academic venues. "Democracy Now" is a populist, activist site. If you are looking for a description of Shlaim as an activist: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/11/25/ten_things_im_thankful_for_this_year . Brad Dyer (talk) 17:27, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Your citation fails, Walt lists a number of "inspired writers and activists" and doesn't who he views as writers and who he views as activists. In any case we have Shlaim's peer review of Finkelstein's work for the University of California press as published by the Journal of Palestine Studies, so this discussion is somewhat mute. Another point to make is that weather you personally regard Shlaim as an activist or scholar does not really alter the fact that he is a significant published opinion on the issue of Finlkelstein's research on Israel and should be included per WP:NPOV Dlv999 (talk) 17:51, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

It is far from moot (note the correct usage of the term). We can certainly use material from his peer reviewed work published by UC (and I believe the article does this already). But we cannot do the same for an informal interview he gave to an activist web site. And here's another source for you on Shlaim's activism: http://www.jpost.com/International/New-Statesman-prints-pro-Palestinian-flotilla-advert Brad Dyer (talk) 18:04, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

A Democracy Now interview with Savi Shlaim on the topic of Finkelstein's research with respect to Israel is a perfectly fine source to verify Avi Shlaim's opinion on Finkelstein's research with respect to Israel. The important point is that AS's viewpoint is significant for inclusion per WP:NPOV (it tells us to include all significant viewpoints). As previously discussed Avi Shlaim's viewpoint is significant because of his position as emeritus professor of International Relations at one of the most prestigious universities in the world, he has published extensively on the issue throughout his career, he completed the peer review on Finkelstein's work on this topic. Dlv999 (talk) 04:01, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Shlaim's review of Finkelstein's work , published in a UC journal is indeed academic work - why aren't you using that, then? Why are you instead choosing an interview he gave to an activist site? I am beginning to agree with the the other poster who said this looks like a coat-rack. Brad Dyer (talk) 16:09, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

As discussed Shalim's viewpoint is significant and should be included per our WP:NPOV policy, which tells us to include all significant viewpoints. An interview of Shlaim, conducted and published by Democracy Now, about Norman Finkelstein and his work, is a perfectly fine source to verify the opinion of Avi Shlaim on Finkelstein and his work. If you have any doubts that the source is suitable for what is being used for you are free to take it to WP:RSN. Claiming Coatrack is a nonsense - the entire Democracy Now interview with Shlaim and Hilberg is focussed on Norman Finkelstein and his career. That is the topic of this article. It is not a coatrack to include material about the topic of the article from a source specifically covering the topic of the article: Norman Finkelstein. Dlv999 (talk) 16:50, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

You aren't answering my question. Why are you using an interview in Democracy Now, a heavily biased source, instead of and in preference to an academic work by the same author on the same topic? Brad Dyer (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:19, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

It seems that the consensus is that Democracy Now! is an independent progressive news source, not a "heavily biased source." Avi Shlaim is himself a RS making a claim supported by a consensus among major academics in his field of studies so I see no problem with using it. If you need a more scholarly source then you can add the journal Works & Days, Special Issue: Academic Freedom in the Post-9/11 University, Vols 26 & 27, pp 307-322 (2009) ISSN 0886-2060 which also contains the material. Wayne (talk) 01:43, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Could you provide the relevant quote from Works & Days - that might be a suitable replacement, but I don't have access to it. Brad Dyer (talk) 18:52, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

In any case, the Democracy Now interview with Shlaim is a fine source for the opinion of Shlaim. If you have any doubts you are free to take it to WP:RSN. But I can assure you, what they will say is that the source is fine for what it is being used for. Dlv999 (talk) 19:41, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Agian, assuming you are not coat-racking, why are you using an interview in Democracy Now, a heavily biased source, instead of and in preference to an academic work by the same author on the same topic? Brad Dyer (talk) 20:05, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

The interview with the two very notable scholars is on the topic of Norman Finkelstein and his career. The topic of this article is Norman Finkelstein and his career. It is not a coatrack to use sources that are entirely devoted to the topic of the article. Dlv999 (talk) 20:38, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Could you just answer the question, please? Brad Dyer (talk) 21:03, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

The quote very succinctly summarizes Shlaim's appraisal of Finkelstein's work with respect to Israel. I haven't seen any policy/evidence based reasons to exclude it. Dlv999 (talk) 21:12, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:Sources#Reliable_sourcesis clear that academic sources should be used over non-academic ones, and that more neutral sources should be used in preference to ones with a known ideological bias Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Some_types_of_sources. You are doing the opposite here, choosing the non-academic, biased source over academic sources by the same author , where he has written and expressed his opinion on the topic. Why are you doing this? 21:19, 22 May 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brad Dyer (talk • contribs)

Your personal opinion about Democracy Now is irrelevant here, because we are using a direct quote of Avi Shlaim to describe the opinion of Avi Shlaim. It is Avi Shlaim's opinion that we are including not Democracy Now's. In fact the opinion Shlaim gives in his peer review is very consistent with the opinion he gives in the Democracy Now interview. The Democracy Now quote is just a very succinct summary of Shlaim's views on the issue. Dlv999 (talk) 21:31, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, are you going to be consistent with your approach here? Are you proposing to delete all non=academic sources from the article? Look at the rest of the sources in that section alone, I think you will find that the Democracy now source is the best citation there. Dlv999 (talk) 21:34, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I am proposing that wherever we have academic sources , they should be used in preference to non-academic ones, yes. That is wikipedia policy. You asked for a wikipedia policy, I've given you one. Please answer my question now. I really want to understand why you are violating wiki policy is such a blatant manner. Brad Dyer (talk) 21:41, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Obviously the majority of material in the article is not supported by academic sources, so just trying to remove this one piece of text from the article because it is a scholar quoted in an interview rather than in an academic publication is not really going to fly. Dlv999 (talk) 21:53, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Don't misrepresent what I am saying. The reason to replace this material with equivalent material from an academic source is that that is Wikiepdia policy. Why are you doing the opposite of what policy requires? if the opinions are, as you claim, 'very consistent' - why are you using the one from Democracy Now interview, rather than the academic peer review, in contravention of wiki policy? Brad Dyer (talk) 18:06, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

As discussed the Avi Shlaim quote is a very succinct summary of Shlaim's views on the issue. If you read the policy document that you cited above it states: "Editors may also use material from reliable non-academic sources". We are not prohibited from using non-academic sources. In this case the source is very relevant, because it is two very notable academics being interviewed specifically about the topic of this article (Norman Finkelstein). Also remember that the vast majority of sources in this article are not academic sources, and we have a very good reason for using the quote: It very succinctly summarizes Shlaim's viewpoint on the issue. Dlv999 (talk) 18:41, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

If the opinions are, as you claim, 'very consistent' - why are you using the one from Democracy Now interview, rather than the academic peer review, in contravention of wiki policy? Could you perhaps show how the one from DN is more succinct? It's my impression that the opposite is true. Brad Dyer (talk) 18:51, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you could propose an alternative text that covers all the points in the current text as succinctly as the current quote does. Dlv999 (talk) 19:01, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

the current text is "Discussing Finkelstein's book Beyond Chutzpah, Israeli Historian Avi Shlaim stated that Finkelstein's critique of Israel "is based on an amazing amount of research. He seems to have read everything. He has gone through the reports of Israeli groups, of human rights groups, Human Rights Watch and Peace Now and B'Tselem, all of the reports of Amnesty International. And he deploys all this evidence from Israeli and other sources in order to sustain his critique of Israeli practices, Israeli violations of human rights of the Palestinians, Israeli house demolitions, the targeted assassinations of Palestinian militants, the cutting down of trees, the building of the wall — the security barrier on the West Bank, which is illegal — the restrictions imposed on the Palestinians in the West Bank, and so on and so forth. I find his critique extremely detailed, well-documented and accurate." (139 words, of which 124 are a direct quote) . I would replace this with "Discussing Finkelstein's book Beyond Chutzpah, Israeli Historian Avi Shlaim stated that Finkelstein's book "does not make a substantive contribution to the study of the Arab-

Israeli conflict.", but neverthless 'is a frontal attack on more recent books and articles by American Jews about Israel that are written in the tradition of “my country right or wrong” except that they vehemently refuse to admit any wrong on the part of Israel. Finkelstein places this literature under an uncompromising lens, highlighting the biases, distortions, misquotations, selective use of evidence, fabrications, and downright dishonesty of the authors" - which is more succinct (93 words, of which 78 are a direct quote), more balanced and comes from a higher quality academic source. Brad Dyer (talk) 19:40, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I oppose your proposal. Your text is more suitable for the Beyond Chutspah section. This section is about Finkelstein's views on Israel. The Shlaim quote specifically characterises Finkelstein's "critique of Israel" and gives us Shlaim's view of the merits of that critique. Your text does not give us any information at all about Finkelstein's critique of Israel. Most of your proposed text is not really relevant for the section. Dlv999 (talk) 19:50, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

My text is complaint with Wikipedia policy, yours is not. Multiple editors have objected to your text, so unless you gain consensus for it in the upcoming days, I will be removing it. Brad Dyer (talk) 19:53, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't work like that. You are proposing to make changes to the long-standing text, so you must gain consensus for your proposed changes. Of the three editors who have commented here, two have supported the current text. As discussed Wikipedia:Sources#Reliable_sourcesis states that: "Editors may also use material from reliable non-academic sources". There is nothing in Wikipedia policy or practice that would prohibit us from quoting a notable academic who is specifically discussing the topic (and relevant section) of our article. Dlv999 (talk) 20:05, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

The current text for the "Statements on Israel and Israelis" and "Hezbollah and Hamas" sections was the result of a consensus gained after a long series of quite heated disputes, RFCs and noticeboard discussions. It should not be significantly changed without a clear consensus. Wayne (talk) 04:13, 24 May 2014 (UTC)