User talk:Jimbo Wales

MfD nomination of User:Jimbo Wales/WikiProject Wikipedians who frankly don't care about Jimbo's beard

• Also nominated: User:Jimbo Wales/WikiProject Shave the Wales and User:Jimbo Wales/WikiProject Wikipedians for Jimbo's beard

User:Jimbo Wales/WikiProject Wikipedians who frankly don't care about Jimbo's beard, a page which you created or substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Jimbo Wales/WikiProject Wikipedians who frankly don't care about Jimbo's beard and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of User:Jimbo Wales/WikiProject Wikipedians who frankly don't care about Jimbo's beard during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 13:37, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

That's right. @Jimbo Wales: do you want this page deleted? It seems to me that the choice is really yours. Coretheapple (talk) 14:18, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

For deletion discussions involving user pages, Twinkle informs both the creator of the page and the editor whose user page it is. This was an automatic notification. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 10:51, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

@Liz: I made a point of pinging Jimbo to ask his opinion, and I see that he didn't respond to my ping but did post elsewhere on this page. Reading-the-Jimbo-nonresponse-tea-leaves®, that says to me that he doesn't care. It's probably too late to withdraw this MfD but a good lesson for the future, not to waste time policing his subpages/pages. Coretheapple (talk) 13:48, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Hmmm...the presidential campaigns have lit up WP

Case in point: Donald Trump (Last_Week_Tonight). For some reason, I thought WP:Recentism would have trumped it not being a standalone article, not to mention WP:SOAPBOX and the polemic implications of a single episode created as standalone article which brings in WP:Content forking. Also, per GNG#When to create standalone pages, see the examples provided which suggest that it belongs in Donald_Trump_presidential_campaign,_2016 not as a standalone. The same would apply to similar standalone articles if they exist for Rubio, Cruz, Clinton and Sanders, etc. with regards to their current presidential campaigns. We're opening the doors to having forks everywhere - all recentism originating from TV episodes, news and skits from the likes of NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX News commentators such The O'Reilly Factor, a 60 Minutes episode, a Chris Matthews report, a single Saturday Night Live parody and so forth. Yikes. It opens our doors wide to political advocacies and I find that extremely disconcerting. Atsme^📞📧 19:26, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

A good discussion to have. I don't really have a strong view on this one.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:19, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

What is a "legal" threat?

@Jimbo_Wales, if I feel that there might be some sort of bias, whether true or not, and then for whatever reason some bans/blocks and what nots happen and then I say "I will contact the ADL" and I get banned. Is that correct? Are we really now banning editors for sharing that they feel a perception of something a bit off? You can see my talk page for a sampling of 90% of the editors disagreeing with the blocking admin's views. I hope you can see that the chilling effect is the opposite. You are silencing me from sharing my opinion. I have already been silenced because I was told that I couldn't share my opinion at AE/ARBCOM because they found it troubling that I shared my opinion and since I shared my opinion (and I have to be vague) they were going to extend my block. But why is it that gender bias is allowed to be discussed out in the open and just the contrary, if you deny the gender bias, that is not allowed? I don't want to make waves, but it is 2016 and things do need to be discussed out in the open and people should not be getting banned for sharing what they are feeling. And I hope someone watches my page because I really hope I don't get banned for this comment. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 05:16, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

It would be useful if you provided links to the various discussions about this. In general, I find that people concerned about having been blocked tend, on average, to present their case in a rather one-sided fashion. But given that caveat, I would say that "I will contact the ADL" is not a legal threat, but it is a completely unhelpful comment in what should be a civil discussion about potential bias in an article, and would be one factor to consider in asking ourselves whether someone should be blocked or not. We are here to write an encyclopedia, not to engage in flame wars. While I agree that in most cases people "should not be getting banned for sharing what they are feeling" that remark sort of misses the point - we should be discussing sources and how to improve articles, not our own personal opinions or feelings about broad contemporary social topics.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:23, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

• The blocking started after this comment (which BTW also contained a rather frivolous Argumentum ad Jimbonem)
• 24H block → discussion → then this
• indef block → discussion → removal of inopportune material (that is: inopportune material regarding second block; the inopportune material leading to the original 24H block hasn't been touched yet afaik)
• Block restored to original 24H → further discussion primarily at User talk:Sir Joseph#March 2016 and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Amendment request: American politics (that last one having started before the blocking began). --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:00, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Regarding the first comment (that led to the 24H block) I'd like to add here that it seems to me there is still some misapprehension in the wider editor community how Jimbo and Bishonen get along nowadays. If I'm erring about that, maybe time to start clearing the sky. No reason to be heavy-handed about that, just follow official protocol. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:36, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

perhaps just look at the Bernie Sanders talk page. I don't want to say more because that might violate my topic ban.Sir Joseph ^(talk) 12:10, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Sir Joseph, it would seem to me that you did violate your 6-month AE enforced and supported topic ban by referring someone to the Bernie Sanders article talk page as well as mentioning Bernie Sanders. Coffee, any thoughts on this? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:22, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Would you like a shovel? And please stop WP:HOUNDING me. Your constant need to see me banned is extremely disgusting. Jimmy asked for clarification. How the Hell am I supposed to clarify what I am perceiving? There must be a reason why I am contacting the ADL. Now you guys know. WV, you seriously need to stop following me around and you need to stop harassing me and trying to get me banned. It is not conduct that Wikipedia needs. Your userpage has a little blurb about sharks, yet you are acting like one. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:28, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

I have this page on my watchlist. No one is hounding you, no one is harassing you. I have no shovel, no need for one, and am not digging the hole you are suggesting as I am not under a formal topic ban -- you, however, are. I have no desire to see you banned or blocked, just to see you finally and willingly abide by the sanction you are under and stop complaining about it. You do seem to need to have the limits of your current topic ban pointed out to you frequently as you keep pushing the boundaries of it. Several administrators at AE already decided that a 6-month t-ban was appropriate for you considering all the circumstances. Considering such, I see it highly unlikely that your threats of going to the ADL and whining about the t-ban is going to change anything. It will, no doubt, sour many editors against you if you continue on the course you are relentlessly pursuing. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

If you have no desire to have me banned, then you would not have the need to mention the fact that I dared mentioned those two horrid words on this talk page. Did my mention of those two words to Jimmy do damage to Wikipedia? How does me clarifying to Jimmy represent pushing boundaries? You had zero reasons to call me out on daring to mention those two horrid words other than to push me while I'm down and try to get me blocked. You're not an admin, there are plenty of admins around and as you can see, they know how to ban for petty stuff and if they feel that mentioning those horrid words is something horrid, they will take care of it. They don't need you to do something about it. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:00, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

So what exactly is this page for?

Is this where I can post essays like the following:

Morlock Eat Eloi

There are two kinds of people in this world: those who put people into two categories and those who don't. I fall into the first category. That having been said, I will continue by stating that there are two kinds of Wikipedians; there are the Morlock and there are the Eloi.

As you probably know from the H. G. Wells story “The Time Machine”, the Morlock were the brutal, rough people who labored in the harsh underground conditions of a distant future for the purpose of supplying the Eloi. The recipients of the Morlock labor, the Eloi, on the other hand, were gentle, insipid folk who lived an easy, carefree life above ground in the sweet light of day, supported by the labor of the Morlock. Unfortunately for the Eloi, Morlock eat Eloi.

That having been said, I will explain that there are two kinds of Wikipedians: there are the Morlock and there are the Eloi. The Morlock of Wikipedia I characterize as rude, vain, arrogant, conceited, territorial, thick-skinned, tough, and very, very tenacious. The Eloi are, for the most part, the polar opposite with a touch of naiveté. Once again, unfortunately for the Eloi, Morlock eat Eloi. Slowly but surely, over the years, the Morlock have “eaten”, chased off, or discouraged the Eloi of Wikipedia and as a result the Morlock are over represented.

I've heard the lament that there are not enough women editors of Wikipedia. I'm sure that that's true and it would be unfortunate if such an important venue of knowledge and a possible shaper of the public's perspective on the truth should be dominated by a narrow group, to the exclusion of many others. But the focus on the lack of women editors is narrow. The problem is that women are a large part of the kinder, the gentler folk I've humorously described as Eloi, and women are a part of the group driven off of Wikipedia. Among the kinder, gentler people, driven away are are a wide variety of people with valuable skills and perspectives, many of whom happen to be women. I will reiterate, Morlock eat Eloi.

Years ago I read, on someone's personal page, a lament to the effect that the rougher people of Wikipedia were driving off a great many good people. I now appreciate what that person was saying and believe it to be true. On the other hand, it might be possible that my perspective is warped by early, nasty experiences. One of the Morlock, a person well known as irascible, aggressive, and tenacious, and with whom I had personally sparred, recently “retired.” He is gone and I remain; the fact of which gives me worry that I am among those I condemn. On the other hand, it just might be confirmation the happy truth that progress is made, one death at a time.

Just thought I'd ask Zedshort (talk) 15:36, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Well, that's a nice little essay, but it completely misconstrues the central idea that the Fabian socialist Wells was trying to convey, about the unpleasant ultimate reality to be expected under a social system in which a vapid elite extracts wealth from a repressed and oppressed working class. I suppose I should embrace the idea that there exists some sort of prettified but ultimately soulless friendly spacer elite extracting a pampered existence from the hard work of a rough-and-tumble producing class -- but I'm certainly not going to glorify such a state of affairs. Wells wasn't trying to endorse and salute the continuation of a pompous and idle ruling class, he was trying to warn of the dangers of failing to treat workers fairly. Advice to live by... Carrite (talk) 18:59, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Wow!! Much to munch on, but I think you missed the point. Zedshort (talk) 20:30, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

I thought your essay was cute and did make a point about problems with bullying here, and I agree that women are probably less likely to tolerate it than men. I agree that is why we lose good editors and the editing environment has a disproportionate # of bullies. I do also agree with Carrite that the metaphor has some problems compared to what Wells had intended. The Eloi would be even bigger bullies than the Morlocks and eat the Morlocks if necessary as in Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal.

I have not noticed a tendency in me or others who are not bullies to become bullies, but quite the opposite: we become increasingly upset by the bullying and the inability to do anything about it. The bullies are able to use double-standards and are somehow immune from prosecution and have admins that back them up. Perhaps you have attained such a level, but if so, I hope you recognize that being able to wield power unfairly and not be held accountable is not good for anyone, including yourself. We should all be held to the same standards. And that is not what happens here: Some are able to get away with things routinely that those they disagree with would be severely punished by them for doing only once. That is why I am a strong advocate for juries; The bullies will be exposed for what they are: The Emperor has No Clothes. --David Tornheim (talk) 09:09, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

No, I assure you that I am not a bully. I actually have never, even on the playground, been in a fight. Nor do I resort to sarcasm (a sign of an unbalanced mind) nor beat people with swarms of words nor quote a twisted and selected set of rules. Actually, I believe that the bullies will immediately resort to rule quoting (in a very selective manner) as a cudgel to get their narrow way. I have, however, become a more bold editor and will go to people's talk page and talk to them in a very direct manner. I find, when I do that, they back down. I am direct and to the point but keep it professional. I really hope I don't come across as rude, but in their minds it might appear that way. Actually, I don't quote the rules as I see that as a sign of a weak mind, and I have never resorted to an admin. as I believe them to be tainted. Some are able to get their way as they are politicians who know how to work a very convoluted system. Zedshort (talk) 14:14, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I will explain that there are two kinds of Wikipedians... Wikipedians are real people, and they are more complex than that. If you feel there are only two kinds, you need to get to know people better. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 19:16, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Do you seriously think that I don't know that people (individuals) are more complex than that? The problem is, when people join groups their behavior changes. One dog is lonely, but if it has you it is happy, if it has you and another dog it is really happy, if a third dog joins, you have the beginning of a wolf-pack and the personality of the group changes dramatically and for the worse. Zedshort (talk) 20:30, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't disagree that behavior changes in group settings (especially anonymous settings), and it's completely true that folks engage in behaviors that exclude and hurt other editors. But I don't see a lot of value in categorizing or describing editors in this manner, and it doesn't help me understand why things like editors leaving or that far fewer women participate here are happening. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 21:38, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

What I have written is an obvious exaggeration for the purpose of providing contrast and an attempt to explain the decrease of the number of editors and what I believe a concentration of the most aggressive, technical and male types. How could you not understand that aggressive, and territorial people chase off the more gentle and less territorial? That puzzles me. Call me a male chauvinist, but I do believe that women react to aggressive behavior in a very different manner than do men. I recall hearing an interview with a basketball coach, who after coaching men's teams went on to coach a women's team. He said that in the case of men, you could get into their faces and shout at them (actually needed to do so) to get them to listen to him and improve their performance. When he took the same tactic to a women's team, he found that the women did not respond so well to being shouted at, in fact they came unglued. He came to understand he could use more gentle tactics and just talk to them. Such a revelation! I worked for a woman in an engineering company, who found she got a better response from her team by lowering her voice an octave when she talked directly with them. It was rather humourous. Believe me, women editors are chased off along with a lot of good male editors by those rougher people, and as the process of correcting those Morlock is very shakey, the Morlock have essentially taken over. Inviting in more women editors will do no good unless the culture is changed. If you want a suggestion as to how to do that go to my talk page and read my proposal. Zedshort (talk) 22:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Right, so I think what we generally disagree on is the framing of these sets of observations, not whether these things happen or not. That women don't want to participate on Wikipedia is also distressing to me, and I agree that aggression pushes them away (and editors in general), and it's unacceptable. I agree that some men promote or spuriously justify this kind of behavior, and that's not OK either. If this metaphor helps you understand these behaviors, that's fine, but I don't find it helpful to start calling editors these names; they seem arbitrary, not compelling, and awkward. And that's not a criticism of you at all, or using metaphors generally, just me trying to be honest that this particular metaphor doesn't resonate with me at all. Furthermore, I am hesitant to presume that I know exactly what behavioral expectations women have in this project or in general. I don't know that they want to be treated "more gently." It seems more reasonable to say that editors, especially women and folks with other gender identities, shouldn't be harassed. The degree to which it happens is embarrassing. The culture does indeed need to change, and to do that, we need to agree about what kind of behavior is not acceptable (like the kinds you have described) and both encourage and enforce those expectations as a community in whatever areas we work in, and I believe this is possible because Wikipedia is not dominated by a narrow group of people who actively exclude others. We also need to promote and encourage productive editing and interactions as we observe them. In the end for me, it really comes down to the behavior and how we deal with it collectively. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 01:52, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

There isn't much to it. To make things go smoothly, just act in a polite and professional manner. I too find the lack of female editors to be disturbing and a sign of lack of health of the system. There is nothing I want more than to see a more diverse group of people represented in all walks of life and so too with WP. But acting in a polite manner is a matter of how you were raised and hence what you bring here. Acting in a professional manner requires a mixture of life experience and maturity of mind that typically comes with age. The body of editors may be too young and brassy to display that characteristic. Also, what you said here, "I believe this is possible because Wikipedia is not dominated by a narrow group of people who actively exclude others.", smacks of wishful thinking, perhaps there is a typo in that. As far as encouragement, giving a thumbs up on a good edit is nice, but I seldom use it. Perhaps we need a thumbs down button. I work solely by myself and really, really don't like groups; I love people, it's just humanity I can't stand. Zedshort (talk) 14:56, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

"I believe this is possible because Wikipedia is not dominated by a narrow group of people who actively exclude others.", smacks of wishful thinking, perhaps there is a typo in that. No typos. I speak from my experience working in many areas here, and especially with new editors. The problematic behavior is too frequent, but I reject that it is dominant. There is so much good happening in this project: The Teahouse, Editor of the Week, reforms to the RfA process, peer-review processes, edit-a-thons, thanks, and editors cordially working together in ordinary and yet important ways on talk pages, even on contentious topics. There are editors with the courage to face harassment and turn it into something productive. There is an editor from Cuba whose government makes it difficult to obtain Internet access and she has worked so hard and with other editors to contribute to this project because it is important to her. I helped out at an edit-a-thon here in Chicago this past weekend where 23 people, mostly women, edited Wikipedia for the first time and they had a positive experience. You're welcome to believe I am engaging in wishful thinking when I reject the notion that bad conduct rules the day here, but I don't think that is particularly fair to the great deal of good happening all the time. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 18:44, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I think our WP:PAG standards elaborately explain (and have explained almost from the beginning) what proper behavior is and the standards are fairly well set out and that harassment in unacceptable. But they are not enforced evenly, because the justice system works more like a set of good ole boys networks. If you are part of one of the good ole boys' networks, you can do no wrong or maybe get slapped on the wrist. If you aren't, well, good luck, maybe you will get a nice admin. who is even handed, or maybe you'll be sent to the gallows, even if your accuser was the bigger problem and was harassing you. This is why I would like a jury system. The good ole boys would not be able to self-administer their own proceedings and stack the deck and use obfuscation and walls-of-text to hide the injustice. Instead, they would be just as accountable as anyone else. --David Tornheim (talk) 09:36, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

While admins. might be useful, since they are voted for they too might be drawn from the body of Morloc. I have failed in the past to vote on admins. as I really don't want to get sucked into politics but I'm sure that my mindset times 1000 will produce no good. The idea of a jury of ordinary editors to pass judgement on conflicts might work. But better still would be to add thousands of more eyes on WP. To that end I propose a change to the direction of WP that would draw in many people (probably older and female) that by shear force of numbers of their eyes would dampen the behavior of all but the most criminal of Morloc. A study of was done years ago wherein a subject was place in front of a mirror. They found that the subject's behavior became more moral. I think it was concluded that simply having the subject's eyes on himself imposed a sort of moral rule on that person. Having many more eyes looking at each and every one of us will improve our behavior. There is however a thing called a criminal, or perhaps should be called a psychopath, that cannot be corrected and must be shown the door. In the mean time, while we all find ourselves abused, the system must churn and churn to finally expel that individual. I am certain that such people stalk us here, and some may work in packs. Zedshort (talk) 14:01, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Have you looked at the data on number of editors? It was at its peak back in 2007and has declined almost every year since then. I haven't seen the data for page views. I think that has been going down too. But the # of articles always goes up, and the # of good ones go up with it. I don't think of voting for admins. as political, but perhaps it is. As for the jury, under my concept the bullies don't get very far--if all the other jurors vote unanimously they can kick a trouble-maker off. And the jury would need to have around 2/3 or 3/4 majority to make their decision--closer to the "consensus" idea we are supposed to be striving for. --David Tornheim (talk) 15:56, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Also, I imagine you will find that editor's behavior changes a lot as they gain experience. Editor A is not the same editor with the same outlook after they have been editing for five years vs. five months. Not only are there many different types of WikiFauna, with different interests and talents but also editors change over time. An editor who began focusing on content could move over to work on mediation and AFD discussions a year or two later. Some editors just work on the thankless task of reducing categories with backlogs that sometimes contain tens of thousands of articles/pages. While I think you make a good point that new editors shouldn't be chased away, I think that even with having a low percentage of women editors, there is a lot more diversity on Wikipedia than your model acknowledges. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Again what I have written is an obvious exaggeration for effect, but I am sure that it explains much. Zedshort (talk) 22:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm hungry. Where is the pompous and idle ruling class when I need them? Jytdog (talk) 02:48, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Editors in sun are Eloi stalked by Morlock

At the core of the metaphor, many of the happy editors in the sunlight do not even realize, at first, how they are being bitterly watched, from the shadows (or the cesspool), by those trying to find reasons to attack. The new Eloi might become too vocal, imagining they are surrounded by eager, fun-loving college students hanging around with open minds or creative inspiration, only to learn how the Morlock dwell in darkness for many obsequious reasons, and "fun-loving" is not a typical trait amongst them. When the time is right, the happy Eloi will suffer and suffer, for imagining life could be so wonderful, exciting, and joyful; the wrath of the Morlock will soon enough extinguish the Eloi and their excessive, pleasant outlook. It is so easy to demoralize them, in a slow death spiral, revert and revert and revert, but not so fast that they would leave; no, instead just sideways insult and insult, then blocks, but later delete and delete and delete, block some more and topic ban, before yes, site ban to completely demoralize those happy Eloi who do not realize life is meant for continual insults, mindless pain, and endless suffering. Yes, that just about sums it up. ROFLMAO!! -Wikid77 (talk) 08:11, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I have the impression that your experience here on WP has been tainted and you have become a little bitter. I can very much relate to that. I hope to avoid carrying the analogy too far but from a higher level perhaps the we should look at this as predator vs prey behavior. The Eloy (prey) have been decimated and a monoculture of Morloc remain very much to the detriment of the project. There are fewer and fewer eyes with the result that the Morloc become emboldened and will push harder and harder. I suspect that the idea of a self governing system that does not become a monoculture over time is foolishly naive. Any system must have a body of rules to keep it functioning smoothly, but also be flexible to adapt to new situations and grow. If the direction of growth is imposed by a set of internal meta-rules, dictated from the the highest level of Wikimedia Board, they should be vague otherwise they would be stultifying, if the rules are imposed from the lowest level, they will be imposed by the most active/aggressive and become a cancer growing within, if the rules are imposed from without, they will come in the form of starvation of funds and perhaps by being ignored and treated as irrelevant. Alternatively, WP might be replaced by a wealthy person, starting another encyclopedia that does not have the flaws associated with self-governance built into it. Personally I hope for he latter. Afterall, all of the material of WP is free to be copied and used by anyone, and I will vote with my feet. Zedshort (talk) 13:41, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I freaking love this thread. Please keep it going...forever. 166.176.59.112 (talk) 09:10, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Part 3) Flagrantly biased Wikipedia article on the "Murder of Anni Dewani"

In parts 1 and 2 (archive 205), it was brought to the attention of Jimbo Wales (talk) that the article is not only biased, but flagrantly so; misleading to unsuspecting Wikipedia viewers; and directly harmful to Anni Hindocha's surviving family. And the evidence and proof of the bias was presented succinctly and concisely. In attempting to refute this proof, the PR agent acting for Shrien Dewani used the pretense of claiming it was untrue that there were MULTIPLE COURT RULINGS WHICH FOUND IT TO BE A PROVEN FACT THAT ANNI'S KILLING WAS A MURDER FOR HIRE. By way of attempting to defend this bogus claim, the PR agent explains at length the reasons why she rejects the process that led to the very court rulings she was claiming don't even exist. In other words, what's really going on here is that the fact that multiple courts have found that Anni's murder was a contract killing doesn't suit her agenda, and therefore, she wants Wikipedia to censor and bury these rulings. Which Wikipedia is in fact currently doing. And which amounts to yet another violation of Wikipedia standards (namely, prohibiting articles from being based on personal agenda, opinion, or "analysis") to add to those violations already enumerated in parts 1 and 2.

No valid argument has been presented that can dispute the proof presented earlier that this Wikipedia article is unfair and unbalanced. In addition it is both misleading to unsuspecting Wikipedia readers, and directly harmful to Anni Hindocha's surviving family. If Wikipedia refuses to remove the bias from this article, it is shown to be deliberately violating not only objective standards of fairness, but it's own article standards as well. Therefore the article should be corrected. And I call upon not only Jimbo Wales (talk), but all objective, neutral Wikipedia editors to ensure that the bias from the article is removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.114.129.229 (talk) 22:18, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Quack quack. This is a post by topic-banned user Lane99. Will administrators following this page please take appropriate action? While it is true that one of the editors on the topic of the Murder of Anni Dewani is a single-purpose account, this is a rare case where a single-purpose account is contributing positively to Wikipedia by disagreeing (along with various experienced editors with a diversity of interests) in combating BLP violations. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:11, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: Done, thanks for pointing out the connection here. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 05:58, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi Lane99/Al_Trainer/ahindocha/Factsnotlies/Noanon/Forbeshighland/Kesadilla22, your multiple sock/meat puppets have been banned for good reason. Your false and misleading claims about this crime being "proven" to be a contract killing have no place here on Wikipedia. You have specified the three rulings upon which you base your claim and it has been explained to you why those rulings carry no weight since they were all proven to be based on perjury.

• In the cases of Tongo and Qwabe, no findings were made. No trials were held. No witnesses were heard. No evidence was presented. No verifying of the confessions took place. These court proceedings were merely plea hearings rubber stamping pre agreed sentences for guilty pleas. Confessions were accepted at face value. The confessions later turned out to be filled with lies so they can be all but ignored.

• In the trial of Mngeni the court accepted the evidence of witnesses Qwabe and Mbolombo at face value and did make the finding that they participated in a contract killing. It later transpired during the 2014 S v Dewani matter that the evidence given by Qwabe and Mbolombo had been perjured and filled with lies. Mbolombo even admitted it. Therefore it would be completely misleading if Wikipedia were to state the Mngeni court's findings as fact, although they are mentioned in the article's section on the trial of Mngeni.

In summary, what this sock puppeteer terms "proven facts" are actually nothing more than fabricated stories told by lying criminals. This position is avowed by the court in S v Dewani. Paragraph 23.1 of the court's judgement in S v Dewani explicitly states that the only crimes that had been proven to have been planned in advance were the crimes of kidnapping and robbery.

23.1 It is clear that Mr. Tongo, Mr. Qwabe and Mr. Mngeni (and Mr. Mbolombo) acted in execution of a common purpose to commit at least the offences of kidnapping and robbery and possibly also other offences"

Paragraph 23.1 is irreconcilable with this sock puppeteer's claim that this crime was "proven" to be a murder for hire. In actual fact, it shows the sock puppeteer's claim to be patently false.

This sock puppeteer continues to make false unsubstantiated claims that I am a PR agent. Nothing new here. People associated with the "lynch Shrien Dewani" movement have been employing this strategy ever since the crime occurred, casting aspersions over the credibility of any journalist or online discussion participant who dared to present exculpatory facts that showed Mr Dewani to be innocent and accusing those people of being on the Dewani payroll. Such claims have never been substantiated but that doesn't stop the lynch mob from propagating the claims as though they are fact.

This sock puppeteer has been canvassing for meat puppets all over social media, attempting to find people to back his cause and has failed dismally. Even those who share this editor's view that Mr Dewani was complicit in the murder of his wife, have not taken up his cause on Wikipedia because even they realise that the facts and court findings do not support the claims being made.

Last but not least, it is distasteful in the extreme that this sock puppeteer should be employing emotional blackmail tactics by trying to draw the murder victim's family into this discussion, especially when he/she has actually tried to impersonate a member of the victim's family with his banned ahindocha account. There is no evidence of the murder victim's family being caused any distress by the contents of the Wikipedia article, and even if this were the case, it would not and should not influence the inclusion of neutral and reliably sourced consensus based content. Dewanifacts (talk) 10:06, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Disclosure of the full scope of the Knowledge Engine

All this seems to have fallen off the page. Jimmy, I for one remain hungry for a forthright disclosure of the scope of the knowledge engine and the shenanigans that went on around that. I am still hopeful you can pivot on your approach to this. Jytdog (talk) 02:50, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Could you explain, in detail, in what way you find the answers you got in User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 204#Where we left the discussion unacceptable?

"Focus on the deliverables. The grant document talks about a lot of things which are barely even ideas at this point - the deliverables are relatively precise, but what happens next is (deliberately) kept open-ended." --Jimbo Wales[1]

--Guy Macon (talk) 15:02, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree. I'm not sure what I'm being asked here. Jytdog, could you be more specific?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:29, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

After the events, it looks like all this Knowledge Engine was the required  just cause to provide some smoke screen in the factional battle against Lila Tretikov. Between [Template:Staff_and_contractors&oldid=103682] and now, the WMF staff has grown from 265 to 289, 65 names have disappeared, while 89 have appeared. Among the 200 that stayed, 120 have kept their job description. So that 80 have changed of job description. From something to Senior something, from Senior something to Director of something, etc. May be such an increase of seniority will help fixing the software problems. Pldx1 (talk) 19:00, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales, I understand you are willing to discuss the Knight Foundation grant and Knowledge Engine. One of the main issues is what were the events leading up to the Lila Tretikov's resignation and your involvement. The Knight Foundation grant was presented to the board members in September 2015, but Lila Tretikov and other board members initially refused to allow the full details of the grant to be shared with James Heilman. Jimbo Wales, did you tell Lila Tretikov to make the Knowledge Engine project completely transparent to the other board members or did you tell her not to share the full details of the grant and engine or did you not say anything specific to Lila Tretikov in September and October 2015 regarding the grant or search engine project. People want to know what happened since the project and events are still shrouded in secrecy.

Jimbo Wales, the initial blogpost by Wes Moran and Lila Tretikov contradicted the original grant application leaked internal documents. The leaked internal documents states the "Knowledge Engine By Wikipedia will democratize the discovery of media, news and information—it will make the Internet's most relevant information more accessible and openly curated, and it will create an open data engine that's completely free of commercial interests. Our new site will be the Internet’s first transparent search engine, and the first one that carries the reputation of Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation." According to the leaked internal documents, the Knowledge Engine was originally intended to be a search engine on a new site and there is a concern that "Google, Yahoo, or another big commercial search engine could suddenly devote resources to a similar project, which could reduce the success of the project."[2] Jimbo Wales, did you tell Lila Tretikov to or not to explain the full details of the Knowledge Engine project with the Wikipedia community? Jimbo Wales, was the Knowledge Engine project originally intended to be a much bigger project run on a new separate website, according to the leaked internal documents? Lila Tretikov never commented on the leaked internal documents as far as I know. For an organization that prides itself on transparency, I think it is odd that the WMF has not published an official statement regarding the original intention of the Knowledge Engine project and what is the current goal. If you urge the board and/or the WMF towards full publication of the details of the grant and project how come the details and events have not been fully disclosed yet? I hope you can clear up the confusion a bit. Thanks. QuackGuru (talk) 19:52, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

A personal, written invitation

Jimbo, I don't know if you recall our earlier discussion about Debbie Does Dallas, but you made some comments about the inclusion of a pornographic movie in A Free Ride. The "request for comment" I started on that topic will be closing soon, so if you would like to comment there, this is your chance. Right Hand Drive (talk) 21:29, 9 March 2016 (UTC)