User talk:Iridescent

Archives [Jan 06‑Oct 07] [Nov 07‑May 08] [Jun 08] [Jul‑Aug 08] [Aug‑Sep 08] [Sep‑Nov 08] [Nov‑Dec 08] [Jan 09] [Feb‑Apr 09] [May‑Jul 09] [Jul‑Oct 09] [Oct 09‑Apr 10] [May‑Jul 10] [Aug‑Oct 10] [Nov 10‑Apr 11] [May 11‑Apr 13] [May 13‑Apr 15] [May‑Aug 15] [Sep 15‑Jan 16] [Feb‑Apr 16] [May‑Jul 16] [Aug‑Sep 16] [Oct‑Nov 16] [Dec 16‑Jan 17] [Feb‑May 17] [Jun‑Oct 17] [Nov 17‑Jan 18] [Feb‑Jul 18] [Jul‑Oct 18] [Nov‑Dec 18] [Jan 19] [Feb‑Apr 19] [May‑Jun 19] [Jul 19] [Aug‑Oct 19] [Nov 19‑Jan 20] [Feb‑Mar 20] [Apr‑Jul 20] [Aug‑Oct 20] [Nov‑Dec 20] [Jan 21] [Jan‑Mar 21] [Apr‑May 21] [Jun‑Aug 21] [Sep‑Dec 21] [Jan 22] [Feb‑Mar 22] [Apr‑Jul 22] [Aug‑Nov 22] [Dec 22‑]

Nomination of Deltopia for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Deltopia is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deltopia until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Quidster4040 (talk) 15:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm sure I deleted this in its previous incarnation of Floatopia. It clearly refuses to die. ‑ Iridescent 17:38, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Looking over the history I've argued to delete, keep, and delete various incarnations of this article over the years. My mind is now made up firmly towards deletion, regardless of whether it technically meets Wikipedia's notability standards—this is right up there with Radcliffe and Maconie or Howling II: Your Sister Is a Werewolf when it comes to atrocious writing, and given how many years it's existed without anyone making any effort to improve it, I see nothing to be gained by keeping an atrocious article on a topic so marginal. This is one of those cases where the reader is actually better served by Wikipedia not having an article, since if someone is searching for information on it they're better off reading the coverage an internet search brings up, rather than having an indigestible chunk of wiki-crud permanently squatting at the top of PageRank. ‑ Iridescent 16:33, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Ooo thanks for that, I need a bad film to suggest for bad film club next month, and the Howling II looks right up their alley. Previous films for BFC include Aerobicide, Speed 2 and one of Cynthia Rothrock's finest - Undefeatable. Sadly we also had to watch one of Rothrock's not-finest in the form of Santa's Summer House - a film so bad it has a ten minute croquet montage. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:36, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

If you want genuinely bad big-budget films (not knowingly tongue-in-cheek "so bad it's good" Troma fluff, "actually not that bad, just disappointing given expectations" Phantom Menaces and Heavens Gates, or hyper-low-budget b-movies), I suggest you'll never do better than Parting Shots (with Sex Lives of the Potato Men a close second). If you want really, really, weird, dig out An American Hippie in Israel. ‑ Iridescent 18:34, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Have you ever seen Zardoz? I think you might change your ranking... Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:27, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Zardoz isn't that bad, provided you take it on its own terms as part of a continuum of stoner-flick/kids-fantasy-epic crossovers along with The Dark Crystal, Labyrinth, the entire output of Ralph Bakshi and a sizeable chunk of Disney's output in the 1960s and 70s. (Given that this is the man who brought us Highlander II and Meteor, it's not even the worst film starring Sean Connery.) Compared to something like Howard the Duck, Blindman or Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, it's a masterpiece. (If you ever want a real oddity of bad film, dig out The Dawn—astonishingly, still a redlink. The first feature film ever made in Ireland, words really don't do justice to just how weird it is.) ‑ Iridescent 22:12, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Oddly enough my wife has never seen Highlander, so I picked up the DVD for couple of quid the other day. Where else can you see a Frenchman playing a Scot, while a Scot plays a Spaniard? Also she might now understand our 'There can be only one' references...Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:04, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Highlander and Highlander II are very different beasts. The first is an enjoyably silly romp about immortal warriors; the second is incomprehensible gibberish about alien zombies and the ozone layer. ‑ Iridescent 10:22, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Its a good thing you didnt watch the third one with magic then... Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:02, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

There could be only one. Half-decent film. O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 16:05, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Westcott railway station scheduled for TFA

This is to let you know that the Westcott railway station article has been scheduled as today's featured article for February 24, 2017. Please check the article needs no amendments. If you're interested in editing the main page text, you're welcome to do so at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/February 24, 2017, but note that a coordinator will trim the lead to around 1100 characters anyway, so you aren't obliged to do so. Thanks! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:20, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm unlikely to be in a position to monitor this one on the day—Redrose64, if you're about can you keep an eye on it? It's such a boring article it probably won't get much attention. ‑ Iridescent 10:10, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

This means that all six stations in the Brill Tramway topic will have been TfA. When the last one (Wotton (Metropolitan Railway) railway station) was TfA on 4 September 2016, it got eleven bad edits that day (plus two that were self-reverted), and one the next day. 24 February 2017 is a Friday; until recently, I always worked Fridays: but a recent rota change means that I didn't work 13 Jan, 27 Jan or 3 Feb, and I'm not due to work 10 Feb either. But I won't know about 17 Feb until about 11 Feb; and won't know about 24 Feb until about 18 Feb. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:29, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Wood Siding has yet to run, although I'd be inclined never to run it given that even by Brill Tramway standards it's uninteresting. (As I've said previously, if I had my way all of them except Quainton would be subsumed into a single expanded Infrastructure of the Brill Tramway; Wikipedia's "every station needs a separate article" policy really doesn't make a great deal of sense for these rural branch lines where the history, architecture and significant dates are identical for every station on the line.) ‑ Iridescent 23:54, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

thank you for an "object lesson in the Law of Unintended Consequences"! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:32, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Hypothetically...

..how much trouble would I be in, if I had mentioned to a close journo relative about an RFC closure (in advance of the closure, the obvious likely result) and said relative's employer then ran a story on it once it closed? Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:37, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Assuming it's the story in today's Grauniad, then none; since Jimmy Wales is on the board of Guardian Media Group, you can safely assume that any story they print about Wikipedia will be pre-approved by the WMF and thoroughly vetted to ensure it puts the best possible spin on the WMF before it's published. (Or at least, if anyone did run something negative about Wikipedia, they'd be looking for another job the next day.) The Guardian/Observer never say anything remotely negative about any of the WMF's doings, even at their most toxic (this was their spin on Lila Tretikov's reign of error), except when it's to promote WMF-approved criticism based on Jimbo's "we need to dissolve the community and appoint a new one" ramblings (example). ‑ Iridescent 23:43, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, quite right. In my correspondence with Mr Jackson which led to the Granuaid story, I noted that Wikipedia is essentially a "free-to-use online defamation service" and emphasized the hands-off/hands-behind-the-back-whistling stance of the WMF. Needless to say, they weren't quite as interested in that aspect. Oh well, everyone loves a good ol' bit of Mail-bashing -- it's proved to be quite a popular story. --Hillbillyholiday ^talk 00:02, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Hillbillyholiday, if you know how this came to the Guardian's attention, could you let us know on AN? I've just pinged the WMF communications director to ask why they issued a statement. SarahSV ^(talk) 00:07, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@SarahSV, regarding my use of the Mail in Hope, in that case the citation is specifically for "an unsubstantiated report in the Daily Mail claimed that". The fact that the Mail claimed that Obama was offered the painting and turned it down isn't in dispute, and is cited to an appropriate and impeccable reliable source (a book published by the Watts Gallery itself); the link to the Mail article is so people can see exactly what the Mail claimed. I don't think even the ultra-hardliners like John would suggest that there's any publication that can't be used as a reference for what the publication in question said. (As I mentioned in the FAC, on this occasion I'd be willing to bet that the Mail was correct. Since the painting is now deeply unfashionable and spends most of its time either in storage, and since Obama's interest in it was well known, it would be more surprising if the British government hadn't asked him if he wanted it. Yes, the Mail has a well-deserved reputation for fabricating quotes, but they'd be very unlikely to fabricate one from Tristram Hunt, and as someone with such strong connections to both the Brown government and the UK national art collections—and also as the person who originally suggested making the offer—he'd be very well placed to know.) ‑ Iridescent 02:35, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

But we could always say "The Daily Mail says ..." to justify including what they say. That's using the Mail as a secondary source, which is the kind of use I agree should be stopped. But not only the Mail—any tabloid journalism. I think it was a mistake to focus only on them. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:42, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@SarahSV, the key part is "cited to an academic source"; the Mail citation in this case is only there as a convenience to the reader should they want to confirm what the exact wording of the Mail article was. (It is directly relevant that the Mail was covering this at the time, as it demonstrates that the issue was receiving attention in the mainstream populist press, rather than just op-ed pieces in the lesser-read reaches of the Telegraph and Guardian.) I don't see any problem with a Wikipedia article saying that the Mail (or Russia Today, or Freedom Magazine, or Der Stürmer…) has claimed something, provided there's an independent and reliable source for the claim being considered significant, and provided we make it clear that the claim is uncorroborated. (To take a contemporary example, Wikipedia's Bowling Green massacre article quotes Kellyanne Conway's "they were the masterminds behind the Bowling Green massacre" statement verbatim; it doesn't mean we're endorsing the statement in Wikipedia's voice.) ‑ Iridescent 11:26, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

The main problem with the Daily Mail is that it comes up more often (it has accelerated in recent years) in queries at RSN, at arguments on talk pages etc. This is an outgrowth of its switch from merely normal gutter tabloid journalism to outright falsification in the last 20 years. There are of course always other newspapers that follow the same tactics, but they havnt been sued in as many high profile cases (and lost), they dont do it to such an extent it spreads misinformation to other normally reliable sources, and like it or not when you stick your head above the parapet you need to be prepared to get it shot off. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:08, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Have I misunderstood the situation; or did someone (not being JW) contact the paper immediately the RfC had closed? O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 08:33, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

I dont think anyone contracted them directly, I dropped a link to the RFC about a week ago to a relative who is a freelancer (but does a lot of work for the guardian in the tech area) in an offhand comment, he messaged me back this morning saying he had passed it on. However I am not sure thats why they jumped on it, since Hillbilly indicates he was contacted by (the author I think) who appeared to be unaware of it prior to the RFC finishing. Personally I am not going to lose sleep over it. Its not like I contacted them directly and lied about a sitting MP sockpuppeting *cough*... Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:46, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@Only in death:, yes, that's the first thing I thought of  :) but I wasn't referring to you going to the papers; I formed the impression from this that someone was in a discussion with the paper 'right after the close' and that it was 'news to' the paper; which kind of suggests what the G's source was. That's what I meant by 'Have I misunderstood the situation; or did someone (not being JW) contact the paper immediately the RfC had closed?' you see  :) O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 10:06, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Ah I read that as HB was contacted by the author who had not *previously* known anything about it, not that HB contacted the author - I see what you mean. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:10, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

I like the Mail so much I wrote an article about them ..... Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:11, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

(I notice Hurrah for the Blackshirts! is just a redirect.) To be honest, that should be at Enemies of the People (headline) with Enemies of the People being either a redirect to Enemy of the people or a dab page disambiguating Enemy of the people, Enemies of the People, Enemy of the state. Public enemy, Public Enemy, Class enemy and Class Enemy; "term of abuse used by the Mail against those it deems not racist enough" is definitely not the primary use of the phrase. ‑ Iridescent 08:21, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

There is probably enough material to write a dedicated article on Daily Mail fascist tendencies over the years. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:55, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm not too fussed about where the article should live, it just seemed a bit too much information to stick it in the general Mail or Miller case articles. Somebody be bold and move it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:13, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

The flirtation with fascism isn't the worst thing about the Daily Mail; there's at least the (feeble) defence there that they reflect the views of their readers, rather than attempting to guide them. It's the hate campaigns (one could probably get a decent FA out of Death of Lucy Meadows), and the willingness to fabricate stories and pass them off as news, that separate the Mail from other newspapers that have flirted with the extreme right and left over the years; the Daily Express or Morning Star might give undue prominence to material that supports their prejudices and quietly ignore material that doesn't fit their agenda, but they don't actually go to the lengths of making up their own news. (Although, now the Daily Mail has seemingly abandoned its tradition of working through every noun in the dictionary and announcing that it either causes or cures cancer, the Express has picked up that particular baton.) ‑ Iridescent 11:26, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Late entrant for The Lamest Infobox on Wikipedia Contest (see last archive if joining late).

[1]. This added over a hidden "no infobox please" notice. Johnbod (talk) 03:38, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I wonder if an {{infobox none}} would be useful. Placed in the same spot an infobox would be in, it would be harder to ignore than a comment, and it could include a "|reason" parameter. Including data fields and not displaying them would supply the metadata that is sometimes advanced as a reason to include an infobox. The same effect could be gained with a "|display=none" parameter on existing infoboxes, which might be a better approach. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I estimate that template would be nominated for deletion in about 10 seconds. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:56, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2013_February_11. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:21, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for that - it was pretty close (unlike the closer, I counted more keepers than deleters). The display=none route might work, but is rather too easy to remove, and easy to miss on a watchlist. Johnbod (talk) 14:41, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Wouldn't such a template become the latest weapon/battlefield of the Infobox Wars? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:01, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I expect it was back then; weren't the IB wars worse then than now. O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 16:06, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I'd give it a good 11. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:15, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

(ec) Happy Valentine's Day, y'all. Teh wars: then and now. You decide. - Any admin around who could move the next DYK prep to queue, for some illumination? It's overdue. So far we picture "coffins on wheels" where I wanted to highlight a poet, - such is life. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:32, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Maybe we could have a different poet, although not sure he had any wheels? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:41, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Next year. I just received a thank-you-click for the infobox I added to the spiritual illumination ;) (article expanded by a long-time user whose second DYK this is, not mine, - help?) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:57, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

.. and to you, of course, dear Gerda! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:03, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

@Johnbod: The editor who added that is one of Wikipedia's "colorful" characters; I really wouldn't worry about anything he says. @FIM: The infobox wars were forced into a ceasefire by Arbcom (the case originated on this talkpage, if you really want to dredge up ancient history), but both sides are still watching like hawks for the moment Arbcom appears to be taking their eye off that particular ball, and have spent the four intervening years manuvering to try to discredit their opponents, or hound them off the site, in preparation for that moment. ‑ Iridescent 16:21, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

As for dredging up old history, i'd rather re-open this  ;) O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 16:32, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

"colourful characters"?? ... what exactly are you saying there? Henryevans123 (talk) 16:48, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Fall of Constantinople is an example of an infobox run amok. Attempts to constrain its bloat ultimately fail in the face of a never-ending dispute between the modern day adherents to the Ottomans and the partisans of the Byzantines. Perhaps the proponents of infoboxes want to have a go at editing this one-- go ahead, I dare you-- and we'll see how long it lasts. Kablammo (talk) 19:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Winston Churchill is the worst example I've seen, at least on a high-traffic article where it actually matters how we present information. If anyone cares to explain why summarizes key features of the page's subject needs to include that William Houldsworth was his predecessor as MP for Manchester Northwest, I'm all ears. (The page is particularly ridiculous when viewed in the WMF's much-vaunted mobile mode, while trying to use Visual Editor on it will make your browser howl in protest.) ‑ Iridescent 21:26, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

You're just being anti-Oldham  :) It's a great example of wanting to 'summarize the key features' becomes wanting to provide every feature: might as well do without the prose then. The spirit missing is what we famously stick in the first sentence, and is probably best known for: i.e. 'summarizes key features of the page's subject's reasons for popular notability.' Now I'm just waiting for that to happen... O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 09:20, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

@Iri: The Churchill article also has a succession template at the bottom, repeating much of the same information already in the infobox. The infobox itself was much larger until pruned last summer; I will tackle it again. Kablammo (talk) 13:47, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Now done, but it is still gargantuan. And those who wish to know who preceded him as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will just have to scroll to the bottom of the page. Kablammo (talk) 15:53, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

@FIM: You say "might as well do without the prose", but automated processes generating prose on the fly with the role of editors reduced to adjusting the input data is exactly what the long-term plan of some of the more hardcore metadata fanatics is. ‑ Iridescent 16:02, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Unbelievable. What's the redundancy rate like around here? O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 16:26, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

On the Fall article - it has that extra annoying feature of the little blobs of color that are supposed to signal ... something... to our readers. Just attempt to remove them though... (no, I'm not a fan of flag icons...) Ealdgyth - Talk 13:28, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

They make sense in some contexts like sports, where it can handy for the reader to look at Barnet F.C.#Squad and see at a glance "the team is mostly English but includes players from a bunch of other countries". On the historical articles they make no sense at all, especially since most of the flags are no longer in use and I'd wager none of our readers would recognise the flag of Republican Venice. (The Fall article is particularly ridiculous, since Islamic states in this period didn't use flags so they're reduced to using File:Fictitious Ottoman flag 1.svg just to put some kind of blob next to the Ottomans.) ‑ Iridescent 16:09, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

You should play Europa Universalis... Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:16, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I actually bought EU ages ago, but have never got around to actually playing it—every time I look at it, the learning curve looks so incomprehensible I never feel I have a large enough chunk of time to dedicate to learning it, and it's not something you can fiddle around with an pick up as you go along, or start on a basic level and gradually work your way up. ‑ Iridescent 03:44, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

A new entry: [2]. I doubt it will win the title, but it does seem a particularly useless infobox with so little information. Carcharoth (talk) 09:58, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I deleted it. It had a duo of dubious distinctions: not only was it stupid enough to be an insulting slap on the reader's face, but it was also just butt ugly.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 10:05, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

If you feel like going on a deletion spree, about 95% of Monks Risborough could be safely culled. Although, it's possibly the most valiant attempt I've ever seen to mask the fact that there is nothing of any interest to anyone to say about a given subject (unless you really wanted to know that the former dovecote could hold 216 pigeons). ‑ Iridescent 22:48, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

A paltry 3,500 words. A far more valiant attempt -- with literally ten times the wordage -- is here. Drmies took an axe to it shortly after the version linked. It's a tiny area of Long Island, not far from where I work. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:00, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

This one is my personal favorite example of bloat; even after subsequent cleanup it's still about 30 times longer than it ought to be. Despite all the "major artery" boosterism, it's actually an obscure mostly-residential street in a particularly dingy and charmless North London suburb. Mary Hanford Ford with her 652 references, Eric Walter Elst (3900 bytes of text; 340,000 bytes of pointless table), and List of Hillary Clinton presidential campaign non-political endorsements, 2016 (well over 2000 separate citations, over 1000 of which are to Twitter, listing every single person with their own Wikipedia article who at any time expressed either support for Clinton or disapproval of Trump during the 2016 campaign) deserve honorable mentions as well. ‑ Iridescent 08:49, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Silverlake Lounge

Why was this article deleted? The venue was the central venue to a significant and well known rock scene in one of the biggest cities in the world. Multiple famous bands were associated with it, but as time moves on the venue has become like the Whiskey-A-Go-Go where it coasts on name recognition. It has national name recognition. Just like people know the Grateful Dead played The Fillmore and The Stooges played both CBGB and The Grande Ballroom in Detroit, if you ask people about where bands like Silversun Pickups, Black Rebel Motorcycle Club, Metric, Elliot Smith, Local Natives, etc made their names, Silverlake Lounge is the answer they will give.

I find the deletion of the page to be without much careful consideration. I cited local sources, newspapers, blogs, recordings, videos, etc. that all display proof of these acts being known for playing at this venue. One of the articles was dedicated to a sign that hung there that was famous on its own throughout Los Angeles. My hope was that others could add further information and sources.

If the famous clubs of West Hollywood like the Whiskey, the Roxy, etc. have their own wikipedia pages, Silverlake Lounge should too. Outside of those venues, the city has had no other more significant venue. In fact, in regard to recent history the venue is easily more significant than the West Hollywood clubs, which haven't had a scene around them in decades. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loneytunes (talk • contribs) 08:50, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I've treated this as a contested deletion and restored the article, but I'll warn you now that in its current state it has zero chance of surviving a deletion discussion. Wikipedia isn't a directory; for Wikipedia to include an entry on a venue, you need to demonstrate that independent, non-trivial, reliable sources consider that venue significant. You also need to provide a citation for every claim made in the article, rewrite it into an encyclopedic tone, and remove any claim made about a living person or group of people that isn't cited to a reliable source. ‑ Iridescent 09:03, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Well to survive AFD you need to demonstrate 'notability' not 'significance'. Significance is a much lower threshold than notability. IMHO as it stands now, it probably passes the CSD claim but would fail an AFD. To survive an AFD you would need multiple (not just one) sources that are focused on the venue *itself* not on the people who played there. But then Birmingham NEC has an article... so who knows. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:10, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Birmingham NEC has both "largest in Britain" and "busiest in Europe" going for it, as well as being such an eyesore that there was significant debate when it was built, so you'd be hard-pressed to claim it wasn't both significant and notable. A better British comparator would be something like The NEON, The 13th Note Café, The Silver Bullet or Korova. ‑ Iridescent 09:17, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I tried to think of the most boring and least fun concert I attended at a major venue and top of the list was Muse at the NEC, the *sourcing* doesnt reflect those claims at the article though although I will take your word for it on it. Ugly was the least of its problems. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:35, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

With the combination of Muse and Birmingham, what were you really expecting? That sounds about as appealing as a Nigel Farage sex doll. Mine would be Pink Floyd at Earls Court, 1994 (not that I'm implying anything, like, but when a section of seating collapsed and the band set down their instruments and went offstage, the music carried on), with an honorable mention for Iggy Pop at the State Theatre in 1993 which was the very embodiment of "going through the motions". ‑ Iridescent 11:21, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

The wife's family (Coventry based) are all prog fans, I went because I couldnt find a reasonable way to say no once the wife had already accepted on our behalf. I will at least say they played live and it was as good as/no worse than you can expect Muse to be. I am more of a mixture between 80's new romantics, hair/glam rock and metal, with some drum'n'bass on the side - one of my first gigs being Roni Size at UEA. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:16, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

SIVOP

SIVOP is back. I tagged it G4 following your lead, but I can't locate the AfD to cite. Cabayi (talk) 09:28, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

G4 is probably technically incorrect—it was moved to Draft:Sivop under its old incarnation of Sivop, after he was sternly warned on French Wikipedia about using Wikipedia for spam; he's now playing around with different capitalisations in the hope people won't notice. I'll set up an AFD debate to clear it up once and for all. ‑ Iridescent 11:00, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Now set up at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SIVOP. This one is frustrating, as the company almost certainly is notable (outside of South Africa, there aren't many Africa-based multinational companies), but every version of the page thus far has been irredeemably promotional and because of the patchiness of the media in Francophone Africa, the reliable sources likely don't exist to create something viable on it. ‑ Iridescent 11:11, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

On this day, 11 years ago...

Hey, Iridescent. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day! Lepricavark (talk) 15:39, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Kendra Haste

Hi Iridescent - you may recall your contribution to the Kendra Haste discussion, (during which, thanks for your patience), I have since persuaded the artist's agent, (copyright holder), to upload lower res copies to Commons and the article is now beginning to look quite decent. I noted your comment to Patar Knight, in which you cite CDPA §62 as being most pertinent to the use of Waterloo elephant, at bottom of the article. As can be seen here, the sculpture had been installed for 10 years to June 16, when it was professionally cleaned, and it can therefore be assumed to be there for another 10 years. Does that satisfy CDPA §62? Also the top image, ("Work in progress", artist in a private setting), given the artist is turned away from the camera, and the copyright holder has uploaded the photo to Commons, do you think OTRS applies? Will appreciate your comments. Mark^Dask 15:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

In all honesty I'm not sure; Freedom of Panorama in the UK is fiendishly complicated because CDPA is so vaguely worded and doesn't define what "permanent" or "craftsmanship" mean so it's all decided by case law, plus you have the incoming EU harmonisation which regardless of Brexit will almost certainly be implemented in the UK (Britain and Ireland having different copyright laws would cause total chaos). My inclination would be to take a "suck it and see" approach, in posting the image and seeing if anyone complains. Realistically, any copyright violation in the case of the Waterloo sculpture will be negligible, since it's installed in such a prominent location there must be thousands of people who've taken photographs of it over the years (although if Transport for London feel they have a claim to it, that's a different matter; TfL is notorious for taking a hard line against anyone who dares to post any image to which they feel they own the copyright). This is all just my personal opinion and not any kind of policy ruling; Wikipedia:Media copyright questions is largely moribund, but you may find someone there who can give you a more definitive ruling. ‑ Iridescent 16:59, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

and in practice there is next to no case law, because of course no one ever takes such things to court in the UK. Johnbod (talk) 19:06, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

ty both - I'm gonna suck it and see. Mark^Dask 20:48, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

@Johnbod, Markdask; the main pieces of relevant case law regarding the definition of "artistic craftsmanship" are Lucasfilm v Ainsworth (in which it was determined that the individual elements of an artwork don't necessarily constitute artworks in their own right) and Hensher v Restawile (where the Lords tried and failed to provide a formal definition of the distinction between "skilled craftsmanship" and "artistic craftsmanship"). Neither are particularly relevant here, as even if the Tower of London installation is taken as a single work, no reasonable observer wouldn't consider the individual sculptures to be artworks in their own right.

The definition of "permanently situated" to the best of my knowledge has never been tested in English law; European courts have in the past held that it's all to do with the lifespan of the artefact (so if I make a sculpture out of butter and leave it in a public place until it melts, my intention is that it will remain there for its lifespan and thus it's 'permanently situated' and FoP applies; if I make the same sculpture out of marble and loan it to a public place for 10 years, it's not "permanently situated" because there's an intention to remove it one day, and thus I can enforce copyright claims against anyone reusing images of it), but an English court might well not agree with this interpretation. I've been caught out by that one myself in the past, and had photos I've uploaded of public sculptures in Hyde Park/Kensington Gardens deleted from Commons because they're technically only on loan to the Royal Parks.

In practice, in this particular case since it appears the artist herself has given her blessing for the images to be used on Wikipedia, the issue is fairly moot, provided she genuinely understands the implications of "edited, used and redistributed for any purpose". (For these images it's not such an issue since it's hard to imagine anything offensive that could be done with them, but in one notorious case someone uploaded a bunch of innocent photographs of Boy Scouts whose faces then turned up photoshopped into Spanking Art Wiki; "reused for any purpose" is also why North Korea refuse to release a photograph of Kim Jong-un to illustrate Wikipedia's biography of him.) ‑ Iridescent 10:51, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

For the record, Mz Haste, through her agent, is fully cognizant of the potential for misuse, stating at one point her concern that her work might be used in anything hunting-related. I was able to persuade her of the greater good - a source of information for, particularly, a generation of wikireaders. Mark^Dask 23:30, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Updating biographies from online obituaries

What is your view on updating biographies of notable people about death dates for their family from online obituaries? Sometimes this is clear cut, other times less so. The example I am thinking of here is the wife of the astronaut Anthony W. England. For obvious reasons, most of the news coverage tends to be of the astronauts and former astronuats themselves. Contemporary news sources sometimes cover the family of active astronauts (the Gemini and Apollo era NASA and news coverage of astronauts has quite a bit of that human interest angle), but less so for former astronauts. In this case, his wife Kathleen appears to have died in 2013, as detailed in this online obituary (she was born in 1942, but seems only to be found here). It is clearly the right person, though it doesn't mention that her husband was an astronaut. The marriage date there is 31 August 1962. Searching on the names they were known by (Tony and Kathi) gives a printed source here, which gives the same marriage date. This is also the date on which he retired in 1988. Children's names are there as well. From my recent (and previous) reading through NASA astronaut biographies, coverage of marriages and children tends to be there somewhere, if a bit hard to find in some cases (where it is not explicit in the official biography). Obviously NASA and other reliable sources are fine. I'm not so sure about memorial sites and 'private' obituaries published by funeral parlours and suchlike services. Carcharoth (talk) 10:24, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

(very quick driveby comment) Official sources like NASA are fine, otherwise less so. Because of time zones the death date isn't always clear-cut at the best of times (if an American dies in China, there's a 50% chance the time of death will fall on different dates in the Chinese and US media, and both will be "correct"). Plus, especially if someone dies alone "time of death" is often not clear-cut - in the case of someone like Steve Fossett is the death date when he disappeared, when he was declared legally dead, or when his body was found and life was formally pronounced extinct? (That's an extreme example, but there are numerous cases of people dying at home and only being found a week later when neighbors report a funny smell.) If the date isn't obvious, my inclination would always be to leave it out or smother it in qualifiers. ‑ Iridescent 16:45, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. I was less concerned about a specific date, than reporting it at all. Anyway, moving on from NASA astronauts, strange factoid of the day: Mary Wilson (wife of Harold Wilson) is still alive and "the only spouse of a British PM to become a centenarian". Carcharoth (talk) 13:39, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Clarissa Eden will presumably (barring the unforeseen) be able to make the same claim soon. (While I'm on record as believing that Wikipedia's inbuilt bias is often exaggerated, Mary Wilson is a case study in institutional sexism, and could probably do with a WP:TNT complete blanking and rewriting from scratch. To sell 75,000 hardback copies of a book of poetry is astonishing, but in Wikipedia's voice we're saying "best known as the widow of former British Prime Minister Harold Wilson" and "it was generally assumed that she owed her subsequent success as a poet to her position as the Prime Minister's wife". Note that there's nothing comparable on Denis Thatcher, or even Philip May, who's such a nonentity his own business cards probably say "Theresa May's husband", and whose article was only created three days before Theresa May became PM.) ‑ Iridescent 16:21, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Not supported by source, BLP blah blah. So I have punted the 'success due to being the prime ministers wife' statement. While I generally dislike 'best known for' wording, many attempts have been made to excise them and failed. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:01, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Oh well, lets play idiot roulette. Ball has been spun, where it stops nobody knows... Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:03, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Pound or £, etc

Forgive the question (I remember you from Malleus's talk back when I got busted for unblocking him). I just noticed in my Trollope article Miss Mackenzie that I mention a 2500 pound loan that takes place in the novel. I'm wondering if using "pounds" is right here on WP or if I should use £? Thanks for your time. Sad to see Malleus hasn't edited in a month btw. I hope it's not permanent. lNeverCry 06:46, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

My instinct would be in general to use £2500, $2500, €2500 for the three globally-recognised currencies, but to spell out other currencies and more obscure units (shillings, guineas etc), at least on their first appearance; writing out "pound", "dollar" and "euro" seems redundant since any reasonable reader will know what £, $ or € means, but we can't assume the same of ₽, ₹, zł, ₩, ₧ or even DM, ¥, Fr and the like. There is a pseudo-official guideline at MOS:CURRENCY, but as with most of the MOS don't take anything it has to say very seriously. ‑ Iridescent 16:37, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. I'll switch it over to £2500. As for the MOS, I meant to have a look at it 8 years ago when I started here, but I never got around to it... lNeverCry 00:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Piers Plowman

Led to article by rabbithole. Lead: "Piers Plowman contains the first known allusion to a literary tradition of Robin Hood tales." Article: No reference to Robin Hood... Giant Robin Hood template at the bottom...

Is it just me or is this odd? Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:40, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I can't remember PP being thought of as Robin Hood related, but it is a bit beyond my normal time frame. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:50, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Very quick driveby - they mean that PP contains the earliest surviving reference to Robin Hood ("Ich can nouht parfytliche my pater-noster as þe prest hit seggeþ. Ich can rymes of robyn hode and of Randolf, erl of chestre" - e.g., the priest is more familiar with English folk heroes than he is with the Gospels). The significance is that it proves that the Robin Hood legend had already entered popular culture by the late Middle Ages (as Langland feels safe in assuming his readers will get the reference), and isn't an invention of Restoration playwrights or Victorian romantics. – iridescent 2 17:13, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I suspected somesuch, but not being familiar with the work was hoping a TPS here would. I'm guessing that should *probably* be mentioned somewhere in the article proper. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:22, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

@Only in death: A chunk of Tony Pollard's Imagining Robin Hood: The Late Medieval Stories in Historical context is on Gbooks (plus usual crap restrictions), an excellent treatment though. O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 17:53, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Surprisingly, Wikipedia's own [[Robin Hood]] is in remarkably good shape when it comes to documenting how an apocryphal medieval bandit transformed over the centuries into the Prince of Thieves. I'd have expected it to be a magnet for every crank and crackpot ranging from the organic lentil contingent earnestly explaining that he demonstrates that the redistribution of wealth has always been considered a social positive, hardline kippers rambling about him embodying the stout English yeoman battling the Norman yoke, and the in-popular-culture brigade insisting that Mickey Mouse Meets Robin Hood gets its own section, but there doesn't seem to be much of that going on. (If anything, there's not enough "in popular culture"—I'd expect to see considerably more about Sir Walter Scott, who created the whole "Robin of Locksley, who returned from the Crusades the world's greatest archer and led his band of merry men in fighting injustice" mythos single-handed.) – iridescent 2 20:23, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

On the matter of social cranks  ;) there was a Private Eye cartoon 20 some years ago, which had RH demanding of the peasants:

RH: 'Will you join me in overthrowing the cruel King John?'

Peasants: No, we'll string you up, you bleeding proto-socialist. Here's to another five hundred years of despotism!'

Or something like that anyway. Classic. O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 20:37, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

(another quick driveby) That giant navbox certainly shouldn't be there. Just because PP mentions RH in passing doesn't mean people reading this article are looking for further links about the Robin Hood legend - it's no more appropriate than the {{motorcycles}} template would be on Terminator 2: Judgment Day. – iridescent 2 09:26, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I stuck the {{English Literature}} one on it instead; but would have preferred something a bit more relevant ('Middle English' say). O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 16:15, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Shaun Lawton

& All your tpws; I'm in the process of stubbing it, but arguably it's a work of art- 'Berlin was broke. Foreign labourers, including Irish and Geordies were not getting paid, they broke into shops, stole baseball bats and went after their money. Architects were getting shot in their homes'- could be a Mark E. Smith stream of consciousness :) — O Fortuna! ^{Imperatrix mundi.} 13:36, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

• Don't ignore: He also made several attempts at running the notorious Lyke Wake Walk - 41 miles across the hostile terrain of the North York Moors, finally getting his time down to an acceptable 8 1/2 hours. The long miles running across treeless moor and its sometimes hallucinatory effect helped stimulate his fantasy. 2601:188:1:AEA0:D5FA:9AFC:6E2B:8DD (talk) 13:38, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

• It's the fiftieth anniversary of Joe Orton's death this year, and Hammerite's sourced to a 'phone call. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 14:33, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Brilliant! (White)^{said the bloke in the paint shop} Mmmm, Joe Orton should really be a FA, I would've thought. — O Fortuna! ^{Imperatrix mundi.} 14:49, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Joe Orton would be an absolute bastard to do justice to on Wikipedia. While he's long-dead, many of his colleagues and friends are still with us, so describing his personal life would be a BLP minefield but leaving out his personal life would leave an article with all the impact of a slug falling from a gutter. One runs into the same issue on almost all pop-music biographies—unless it's someone like Lennon or Bowie where there are multiple definitive biographies to cite, pretty much anything that the readers would find interesting is potentially libellous. ‑ Iridescent 16:31, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

We should link to the original completed version as an autobiography. Better style than (now brutally repressed) ""He found the answers to his adolescent doubts in communication with the trees, the wind, and the Ocean… From the youngest years of his life, Michel de Séréville was impressed by the wild forces of nature." Johnbod (talk) 14:47, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

@Johnbod: I moved the original as I found it to the talk page, for reference, after you made me feel like a visigoth :) — O Fortuna! ^{Imperatrix mundi.} 14:56, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorely tempted to just do an out-of-process WP:A7 on it—or at least to revdel all the contributions of the assorted SPAs—as nowhere in that 5000+ words of stream of conscious dribbling does it actually give any indication as to why readers should be expected to want to know any of this, and this article is the absolute embodiment of "delete it and start over". My personal highlight is There was a Wat nearby where a well-known Monk had recently died. In the patch of jungle that had been cleared for the funeral guest's car park, the film crew built Hamsun's village. They built it so well that even before shooting began a Disney team, looking for a location for a new Dumbo film, bought the set, lock, stock and barrel. although The tour took in Switzerland, Poland, Austria and historical baroque theatres in Germany, including the Markgräflischen Opera House in Bayreuth, Potsdam's Sans Souci, Hannover Herrenhausen as well as the renovated Theatre Royal in Bury St. Edmunds is a close second. For the benefit of TPWs unfamiliar with the geography of Suffolk, Bury St Edmunds is an utterly undistinguished flea-speck of a dormitory town whose slogan may as well be "cheaper than Cambridge and Ipswich but in commuting distance of both", and the Theatre Royal has a capacity of 360 and is currently hosting the theatrical behemoth that is Islands in the Stream: A tribute to Dolly Parton and Kenny Rogers ("features Kenny Rogers from Stars in Their Eyes"!).

Interestingly, the most bizarre-sounding claim—to have written the lyrics to the Luxembourg entry in the 1973 Eurovision—actually does appear to check out. (The same tag-team of completely unrelated accounts who gave us this is also beavering away on Desperado Corner, incidentally, although JJMC89 has excised about 90% of the crazy.)

I feel like I ought to keep a subpage somewhere listing ridiculously over-detailed articles written by enthusiasts or article subjects with little or no regard for either notability, referencing or grammar. I'll start the ball rolling with Swansea City Centre, Pinball Quest, Heady Topper and Tara (cat). ‑ Iridescent 16:24, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Somewhat unfair! You won't convince someone who has a David Gentleman print of one of the gates to Bury St Edmunds Abbey on his living room wall! Johnbod (talk) 16:52, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Its an Abbey. There are loads of them. I am sure people will not be missing out if they visit one that is not in Bury St Edmunds. About the best thing I can say for it is at least its not Thetford or Ipswich. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:51, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank god for Thomas Cromwell eh, or there'd be a darn sight more :) — O Fortuna! ^{Imperatrix mundi.} 18:03, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Not very unfair, given that the two gates are (literally) the only parts of the abbey that are still standing. Virtually everywhere in the British Isles has something attractive there—even Port Talbot and Cumbernauld, neither of which would raise an eyebrow if the local councils announced a town-twinning scheme with the Land of Mordor, have Margam Castle and Cumbernauld House respectively. I think it's safe to say that when compared to its neighbours in Cambridge, Suffolk, Norfolk and north Essex, Bury's shithole/nonshithole ratio is somewhat lacking. ‑ Iridescent 18:00, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

• Brits, get to work on Desperado Corner. In the meantime: Iridescent, I have a question for you. User:Lall Baxterslad and User:Shaun Lawton are CU-confirmed to be the same. Which one to block? I'll let you pick--I have to go see a man about a horse and read Twelfth Night. Drmies (talk) 19:03, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to say "neither", unless Lall Baxterslad comes back to life. What I see here is someone who's written an autobiography under a pseudonym, but once it's been challenged logs in under his own name because he assumes that makes him more credible, rather than an attempt to deceive. Dishing out blocks will just mean someone else whining to the press about how mean Wikipedia were to them; if he's willing to abide by Wikipedia's rules on sourcing and neutrality (a big if), then let him continue provided there's no attempt to deceive. After all, if the sources do exist he's presumably the only person who knows where to find them. (Because we're so used to the Mattisses of the world who are actively trying to be disruptive, we tend to forget that most "sockpuppetry" cases are actually good-faith users who genuinely didn't know they weren't supposed to use multiple accounts.) ‑ Iridescent 19:13, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I've cropped a lot from Desperado Corner. As long as we're looking at WP:MULTIPLE, let's throw MacWulf (talk · contribs) into the mix. 2601:188:1:AEA0:D5FA:9AFC:6E2B:8DD (talk) 19:48, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

MacWulf is long, long stale for Checkuser purposes—the logs are deleted after three months—so AGF means we assume it's just a fan rather than the same guy. ‑ Iridescent 19:57, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I learned something new. Not that there's any practical application away from the keyboard, but thanks. 2601:188:1:AEA0:D5FA:9AFC:6E2B:8DD (talk) 19:58, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Not sure what gives...

Hello, I had a MLA style research summary posted on the "Job Satisfaction" page, some dude kept flagging it for self promotion. Mind you, I am NOT Richard Branson. If I was, I may be on my spaceship cruising to the moon. I get nothing out of paraphrasing his ideas or noting his accomplishments. I have another version of my summary that paraphrases employees of Google, would that help? I am not trying to promote anybody, and if you think that maybe my research goes against yours, that's your opinion. I do not appreciate the antagonist reactions. JamesCorneaterman (talk) 19:29, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a neutral tertiary source, not a blog; Branson's ramblings about motivating staff might (emphasis on "might") be appropriate at Richard Branson or Virgin Group, but certainly not on more general employment articles. And no, we don't want your research; if a credible academic source has written about Branson (or Google), you can cite that, but if not we don't want it. (Although, there's something pleasingly surreal about the idea that a company which is legendarily unpleasant both for employees and for customers, and whose recent union-busting efforts were described as "the biggest scabbing operation in recent history", is in any place to be offering tips on motivation. If Branson is really that good at motivating, he could try motivating someone to occasionally fix the toilets on his wretched cattle-car trains so they don't stink out every carriage.) ‑ Iridescent 19:41, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

And you can pack this game in as well; pick one account and stick to it unless you have an actual reason to be using multiple accounts. ‑ Iridescent 19:43, 8 March 2017 (UTC)