User talk:Jimbo Wales

"The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has just been finalised"

Quoting MEP Julia Reda:

Moments ago, negotiators from the European Parliament and the Council concluded the trilogue negotiations with a final text for the new EU Copyright Directive.

For two years we've debated different drafts and versions of the controversial Articles 11 and 13. Now, there is no more ambiguity: This law will fundamentally change the internet as we know it – if it is adopted in the upcoming final vote. [1]

XOR'easter (talk) 19:57, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

@XOR'easter: Any idea on how this will impact Wikipedia? THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 00:56, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

@ImmortalWizard: See this blog posting by Eileen Hershenov (former General Counsel of the WMF) for a brief summary. The main threats remain, i.e. the mandatory introduction of upload filters and the restrictions regarding news snippets. It all depends now on the final Parliamentary vote short before the EU elections. --AFBorchert (talk) 08:12, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

@ImmortalWizard: Cory Doctorow has also outlined it in June 2018 at EFF.org as well, especially how bad it will be for Wikipedia. Regards SoWhy 08:38, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Now can we have that blackout? This makes SOPA look pretty damn tame by comparison! Concerning Jimbo: we should get some expert opinion on whether any of the proposed Brexit deals would encourage or mandate this sickness to spread out of the EU into Britain. Wnt (talk) 13:44, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Here is Julia Reda's explanation of what has been agreed. The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has just been finalised. The WMF has asked me not to speak to the blackout question just yet. I am seeking permission to do that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:48, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

I am very glad to see you stand up for freedom of expression ... but not glad to see you having to ask 'permission' to do so, without immediate result. I don't know how things came to such a pass. Wnt (talk) 22:23, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

They are probably hoping to coordinate announcements for maximum impact. Anyway, the link you want to point people to is https://saveyourinternet.eu/act/ EllenCT (talk) 03:56, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

I can't imagine for one moment that the whole of the UK's Brexit "negotiating team" have the slightest idea how any of "the proposed Brexit deals" would be affected by this new EU Copyright Directive. As you know, thanks to Theresa May and Donald Tusk, with six weeks to go, we currently have a grand total of two possible deals: (a) take it, or (b) leave it. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:34, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

The alternative BBC Jimbo show has been cancelled. If you do not want to watch one of these, there is something wrong and it's not just me! Not everything stupid is, you know, stupid is it.., ~ R.T.G 23:52, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

The law started to get serious on copyright after the sixties. When Rock and Roll was out a singer could write and publish a song and be knocked off the top ten by four other artists performing their song. And, that had to be stopped. With that in mind, read the universitys story-->[2] our whole culture has been renewed in the last fifty years on the back of a free culture! The amount of music and television you need to sample to garner a true appreciation of contemporary culture is vast and could only be afforded by the rich no matter what. No matter what. They are murdering the richness of our children and nobody can stop them because in the midst of Occupy, SJWARRIORS, and when you think you are with the warriors ANTI/FA. And when you think the world is about cycling through to the right targets HILLARY/TRUMP/MEDIASCREAMING(hitler). And when we don't learn from that, we all eat cake on the back of telling each other we are avoiding that situation.[3] ~ R.T.G 03:39, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

The more you take away from a pit, ...when they read that they don't say, what is the nature of a pit, they say, OHPITTHATSUS thats, that'll be our weapon... And that's no way to run a people unless something is very wrong, that I may not have the ability to run a people, but of that much I am sure. It's a lot of history repeating going on.. [4] ~ R.T.G 03:41, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

I am sad on Wikipedia at this very moment someone said once. ~ R.T.G 03:52, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

• "The first is freedom of speech and expression—everywhere in the world.
• The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way—everywhere in the world.
• The third is freedom from want—which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants—everywhere in the world.
• The fourth is freedom from fear—which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor—anywhere in the world.
• That is no vision of a distant millennium.
• It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation.
• That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so-called new order of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb.

— Franklin D. Roosevelt, excerpted from the State of the Union Address to the Congress, January 6, 1941"

I think it might be illegal for me to post a copy of this information in Europe. I'd better stop living in the past. I just can't seem to afford the future though. ~ R.T.G 00:47, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Fear of debate is a powerful kicker. You need to appeal to sympathy. The seventies was so much about the glam. In the 80s that translated to - what are you looking at. The 90s and 2000 was so much about the ability to speak. Now it's - don't even speak. (isnt it?) Freedom of speech. Freedom of panorama. There is no more past or future any more than there is a minute or a second. You only have one thing in this world for sure. If you are not looking into yourself when you mean to move forward, it is as if there is a curtain pulled before the window. Article 13 is an act of power and fear, as are all absolutes. None of your gods said they will save you before you are dead. They told you, that on the occasions when they did save you, you are to treat it as a miracle. Religion is not about waiting for miracles, but believing that they have already happened. You are given heaven, not to wait for death, but to live on this world with heaven in mind, so that you will not have slaves. So that you will not kill each other. It's not the copyright that is the problem. It's the absolutism and suppression twisting it. We get the right ideas, blame our superiors, then we allow them to remove all the examples. ~ R.T.G 17:28, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

I am not in Europe, but God, who knows what will happen next in Europe? Will a lot of people protest? (Yes) Will all of the countries of the EU leave? They have no right for this to happen. They should have access to the Internet! And remember the SOPA & PIPA protests? Look at how many companies/websites participated! 4chan, Cheezburger, Craigslist, Creative Commons, Boing Boing, A Softer World, Cake Wrecks, Cyanide & Happiness, Demand Progress, Destructoid, Entertainment Consumers Association. Free Press, Failblog, Newgrounds, Good.is, GOG.com, Google, Gamesradar, Internet Archive, Marxists Internet Archive, Jay is Games, Mojang, MoveOn.org, Mozilla, MS Paint Adventures, Rate Your Music, Reddit, Roblox, Oh No They Didn't, Tucows, blip.tv, Tumblr, TwitPic, Twitter, The Oatmeal, VGMusic, Wikia, Wikipedia, WordPress, thr Free Software Foundation, the webcomic xkcd as well as the corporate site of the Linux distribution openSUSE and the congressional websites of Silicon Valley representatives Anna Eshoo and Zoe Lofgren. As well as widespread coverage by ABC Australia, CBC, BBC, der Spiegel, Le Figaro, Le Monde, Libération, Fox News, The Guardian, Menafn, News Limited, Sky News, The Age, The Hindu, The New York Times, Taipei Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal and The Times of India. (From Protests against SOPA and PIPA) All we can do is protest and boycott. Now I wonder how much websites and companies and news companies will do against Article 13! I don't know what will happen to Europe now... From America, TheSmartPersonUS1 ^(TSPUS1) (talk) 16:47, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Encyclopedias for Deletion banner campaign

RFC at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Encyclopedias for Deletion banner campaign for EU Copyright/Article 13. EllenCT (talk) 05:17, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Ugggh. This is bad enough to count as sabotage. We don't need inaccurate in-joke memes aimed at Wikipedia editors, we need solid factual and arguably impartial-ish information aimed at the far broader number of people who read Wikipedia but have never edited it. Wnt (talk) 14:09, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

How about this alternative?

EllenCT (talk) 16:42, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

"Don't let Europe take your freedom"? How is that neutral, accurate, or fact-based? The issue as I understand it isn't whether Wikipedia can provide free content, but whether our content can be freely reused. I'm not convinced that a banner should be placed but I do think the ones you've proposed are to close to being sensationalistic for me to be comfortable supporting them or anything like them. Ca2james (talk) 18:10, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

@Ca2james: You mean free as in beer while I mean free as in both beer and freedom. How is it not neutral? Would you prefer "freely-licensed content" to "free content"? EllenCT (talk) 21:34, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

@EllenCT: I mean the phrase "Don't let Europe take your freedom" is not neutral, accurate, or fact-based, and is sensationalistic in tone. Are people about to be locked up en masse, or their civil liberties taken away if Article 13 is passed? No. They're not. But the use of "freedom" implies all that and so reads to me as sensationalistic propaganda. Also yes I do prefer "freely-licensed content" over "free content". Ca2james (talk) 14:46, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@Ca2james: we disagree. Do you deny that reasonable people may reasonably differ on such questions? EllenCT (talk) 06:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Where have I suggested that reasonable people may not reasonably differ on this or any other question? Why are you asking this question? Ca2james (talk) 16:54, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I just want to make it clear that our difference is one of opinion. EllenCT (talk) 17:50, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

What else would the difference be? I'm baffled by your last two comments in this particular thread because they make no sense to me. It almost seems like you're trying to imply that something nefarious is going on, but that makes no sense either. Ca2james (talk) 05:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

@Wnt: should I withdraw all my proposals and ask the Foundation to institute a copyright royalty distribution program to compensate editors in proportion to their needs times their likely future contributions? EllenCT (talk) 05:19, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

You should withdraw all of your proposals and do nothing'. There is zero chance of anything that you have proposed or will propose actually happening, and frankly, your ideas aren't very good. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:45, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

There is no such thing as appealing to emotion blindly, except when targeting those obviously experiencing emotions. Then it is the source of emotion. And other stories... ~ R.T.G 18:24, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Guy, I trust Wnt more than you on existential threats. Where are you on PolitiScales? I'm a Human Justice Ecologist. EllenCT (talk) 07:09, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

So far, unfortunately, I haven't found a definitive statement on this from the American Library Association, which is unfortunate. The ALA is a trustworthy organization widely associated with library professionals, so would seem more authoritative than a "savetheinternet" link. Additionally, to feature the ALA would not so subtly remind people that Wikipedia is fundamentally an American national organization expressing American national values, in which, if this passes, Europeans may be largely marginalized. It is possible that their Office for Intellectual Freedom would respond to WMF to help work out a campaign, if some people at WMF asked.

An approximation to what I have in mind might be something like

Proposed EU legislation would damage the ability of Wikipedians to research and generate content that is freely reusable. Current and historical news coverage would be severely impacted. See EFF's analysis for further information.

Wnt (talk) 14:31, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@Wnt: I wasn't trying to get you in trouble, but now we have to come up with a meta:CentralNotice/Request which is serious, non-satirical in any possible context, generally unfunny, and against the playful spirit of comraderie and collaboration that exists at our very core, because this is for the rights re-users who slap ads on our content and try to make a buck from search engine hits, apparently.

How is that? EllenCT (talk) 06:21, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

That's not better: it's misleading. "Current and historical news coverage is at risk" is about Article 11 (which doesn't affect Wikipedia), but "The European Union has proposed legislation which will inhibit the ability of volunteer encyclopedia editors to develop and disseminate educational content under a free license" is about Article 13. Putting them together the way they are is misleading, not factual, and not neutral. Ca2james (talk) 16:54, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

@Ca2james: how would you put it? EllenCT (talk) 17:48, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

@EllenCT: I want to wait for the WMF to come out with something before proposing specific banner text. I expect the proposed text of the banner will end up being similar to the [banners] that received consensus the last time around. Ca2james (talk) 05:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

No argument there! Let's hope Jimbo gets permission before it's too late. I wish you had told me about those proposals earlier (nice!) EllenCT (talk) 19:57, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Nocturnalnow (talk) 17:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Chinese Wikipedia

Hi Jimbo Wales. Just want to ask you if there's anything you can do to make it visible in mainlan China again? James Booker fan (talk) 02:35, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Chinese Wikipedia is blocked in China by authorities due to political reasons. Internet censorship in China is probably the most extensive in the world. You have to persuade the Beijing Government to unblock it although it's very tough to do so, otherwise it's not possible. ―Abelmoschus Esculentus (talk • contribs) 04:11, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Despite reports that the whole of the Chinese Wikipedia at https://zh.wikipedia.org is blocked in China, GreatFire says that it is not.[6] However, GreatFire does report that numerous individual pages are blocked [7], including the usual suspects such as the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests from the English language Wikipedia.[8]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:19, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

@User:ianmacm @User:Abelmoschus Esculentus Well, I can see the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests page, but I can't see the en.greatfire.org link. They appear to be blocked as well. Thank you both anyway. James Booker fan (talk) 11:47, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Curious -- I have seen repeated statements that it is impossible to block individual pages of Wikipedia on account of https. Do the Chinese have a copy of the key now? Wnt (talk) 15:03, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

The received wisdom is that it is impossible to block individual pages on HTTPS. It is either the entire site or nothing at all (in theory, at least). There are also tools like HTTPS Everywhere which force browsers to use HTTPS when available. There is a "Test URL" feature on GreatFire, so I tested Wikipedia and it says "Blocked: 0% (in the last 90 days). "[9] There is also an online test here which says "en.wikipedia.org Not Working in China" and a similar result with the different test here. However, it would be useful to have results from someone actually in China.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:03, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, that was stupid of me - the link says right there that the pages are only blocked in the http form not https. But the mystery of their statement is that they show the pages blocked "since 2014" yet now they all automatically redirect to the https form. So I mean, you would have to intentionally type in something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_Protests in China in order that you get blocked instead of being sent to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_Protests - that's that only way, AFAIK. If you just went to http://en.wikipedia.org/ you should end up with a non-censored page, according to them, that immediately puts you into the https system for further browsing. Unless there's some caveat built into the redirection I don't know about. Wnt (talk) 23:28, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

China was building three crowdsourced encyclopedias over most of the lifetime of Wikipedia, but I don't know which have survived or will continue to survive. All of them were associated with for-profit corporations, but all of those corporations were either state owned or have since become state-controlled under subsequent datacenter access legislation. What I believe is the largest, while nominally owned and attributed to search engine giant Baidu, is not afforded any special protections, and is treated as a public utility. I am not able to read Chinese, so it might as well be Vulcan to me. None of the encyclopedias allowed, licensed, or otherwise controlled by the Chinese government are going to defy specific censorship requests. However, the law in the West is substantially different, being based on civil institutions such as a free, unencumbered press, just rewards for those who attempt to encumber the press, and a variety of other factors, some of which are often associated with "free culture" movement. Anyway, when VPNs are available trying to get the Chinese Wikipedia from China is easy. But VPNs are not always available, and some heavy fines have been imposed on those who provide them to others. Modern VPNs are difficult to detect, e.g., IP-over-HTTPS, with or without steganography, for that matter, but China has shown a willingness to deny aircraft permission to land when their corporate materials include "Taiwan" used to refer to a nation, so who knows what they really want. The use of intermediary authorities is an alternative for the Chinese government when simply offering cash doesn't work. Reliable sources abound. Solutions exist and are plentiful. EllenCT (talk) 03:39, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

@EllenCT Yeah, that's why it bothers us a lot. Sometimes VPN is not that convenient to use, and after a while people just stop trying to visit these websites. (Even saying that feels a bit...censored) Btw, BAIDU IS RUBBISH. James Booker fan (talk) 12:46, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Soon VPNs will be repackaged as things you can paste into your profile for unfiltered access, and a dozen other such, all free and who knows which are tracked. EllenCT (talk) 16:58, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

I think encrypted SNI may be the game changer from a technical perspective. As it is implemented by major browsers and then major hosting platforms, the calculus starts to change. Right now, it is possible to block/ban a single domain name hosted by Cloudflare or AWS or any other major provider. After encrypted SNI rolls out, the choice will be the much more difficult choice to block all of Cloudflare or all of AWS, which even the Chinese would struggle to do, as these and other major providers carry a huge chunk of Internet traffic.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:22, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

If they actually care, isn't it more likely that China will simply mandate browsers are open to MITM attacks, and block access to sites when they can't MITM? I thought computers and phones intended for the Chinese market were already like that but it sounds like they aren't since the only discussion I can found relates to some historic problems with China Internet Network Information Center roots. Frankly I'm surprised they would be so silly, since I presume convincing people to trust those in the first place wasn't easy. I guess it does demonstrate that they don't care that much about the harm it causes to their own companies when it comes to getting their way with the GFW. Anyway whatever, easily fixed in the future if they feel the need. Start a GFW root completely separate from anything else. Mandate that by 2022 or something all computers and phones sold in China have this root, and likewise all browsers used in China have this root. Come time, start to block requests from then which can't be MITMed. For people still using old phones or computers post whatever, or who import their stuff, simple solution. Go to gov.cn and download the 火狐中国 or 铬中国 (okay I don't know if Mozilla and Google have trademarks on these, if they do, new names could easily be found). On Android phones, go to your Baidu app store and do the same. For iOS, well either Apple will have to allow these browsers to be on their official App store in China or bye bye Apple. Security risks for Chinese users? Sure, but if they care enough that won't be a barrier. Smaller governments without that level of pervasive control may be discouraged [10] [11], but the Chinese, probably not so much if they actually feel the need. P.S. Remember that HTTP Public Key Pinning is basically dead, so not something they need to worry about. Of course when you're making the browser that can trivially be disabled anyway. P.P.S. More technically inclined users can install the roots themselves and at least use normal browsers or computers/phones from outside China if they desire. Nil Einne (talk) 17:51, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@Nil Einne I think they are already doing this in a way. Some of my friends cannot even get out of GFW when are abroad, because they use some app to help them go online without having to get a local phone number. James Booker fan (talk) 14:15, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I am in a situation where I occasionally have to go the China and fix a production problem. This is in the toy industry so there is a big concern with industrial espionage as well as government censorship. My connection is through a corporate LAN or through the network at my hotel, and I assume that they eavesdrop on everything. I typically buy a computer with a CD locally, boot Tails (operating system) from a CD-ROM, and make my connection to the outside world through Tor (anonymity network). I have WP:IPBE, which allows me to edit Wikipedia.

I do not believe that it is possible for them to selectively block or eavesdrop on my Internet connection (ask me if you want to learn about defeating cameras in the room). Of course I am in a privileged position, because hundreds of workers are sitting idle waiting for me to fix the production issue. A Chinese national might very well get a visit from the authorities asking about his encrypted connection. And I don't do anything that the authorities would object to, like editing our Falun Gong or 1989 Tiananmen Square protests pages or anything political. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:40, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Quick question for Jimbo and all Talk Page Stalkers.

What's your favorite species of bird? Mine's the cockatiel. A Dolphin (squeek?) 15:27, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Does it have to be biological? I like little owls and chicken, but for different reasons, and the BNL Axiom from WALL-E. EllenCT (talk) 16:02, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Toco toucan. Really nice photo of one on Commons here. This should be nominated as a Featured picture candidate.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:23, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

A cockatiel/cockatoo? Oh dear! And by the way "I hate you", "you fucker", because "you always screw it up". [12] Gandydancer (talk) 17:53, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Mine has to be a Lorikeet. I remember befriending a few when I was on holiday in Australia a few years ago. Absolutely gorgeous birds - I remember one of them sitting on my hand and eating out of it one day!-- 5 albert square (talk) 23:47, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

• 
  The Big Duck

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:12, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

The hen. --Malerooster (talk) 04:23, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Rubber chicken. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:36, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

A photograph of Sesame Street's Big Bird character

Leviv ich 06:45, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Quetzalcoatlus Count Iblis (talk) 06:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

What's happening on the other side of the US/Mexico border wall

WikiTribune could be more successful by covering the important stories that corporate mainstream media virtually ignores, while they give us daily national weather reports.

This is where I get more and more of my news: 70,000-worker strike brings auto production to a standstill – wbm1058 (talk) 00:26, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

The worker strikes are in Matamoros, Tamaulipas maquiladora factories. See Maquiladora § Unionization. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:08, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Suspicions on the safety of Wikiversity projects

Jimbo, I found this picture. It looks dangerous. So I followed it to a Wikiversity page from 2012. It said something to the effect of, repairing a desktop power module. He seems to have finished the work, he kept calling it the work, and then disappeared. Following the links connects the page to something called Howard_Community_College. Howard College seems to have disappeared at roughly the same time. I just woke my neighbour trying not to laugh. Maybe I'm wrong. The last entry from the page, "Finally, I made 3 small holes each sides of the power supply to help it to cool down. It does not a fan, so without holes it would get to hot." ~ R.T.G 07:10, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Seriously though, I thought the name was like Indian or African, and this guy was up a mountain somewhere with nothing but a spaghetti carton ("I found a spaghetti carton". he says). Howard College is in Columbia, Maryland. I feel like I am ratting somebody out for smoking weeds or something. But this was a different kind of smoking. Can I put a warning on that page or? ~ R.T.G 07:32, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Please don't post false information about electronics and safety on prominent Wikipedia pages. That's an ATX power supply, and the ATX standard supplies three positive rails: +3.3 V, +5 V, and +12 V. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:42, 20 February 2019 (UTC) _{(<-- an actual electrical engineer)}

Guy Macon, I mean, it does take 110VAC input..._{(<-- hardly "high voltage")} I didn't see him say anything about connecting that outer layer of foil to ground. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 14:33, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay look, it's not the volts. It's the wattage. 500 watts is standard pressure from a desktop PSU. 800 for a gaming system. All the voltage in the world isn't going to help you if that thing has a problem that makes it overheat without a cooling fan. It's the transfer rate. It could be battery operated voltage. You don't sleep with your smart phone under a pillow. There is a reason for that. A 12 volt battery starts a car engine. Very funny haha. It's dangerous and he knows it if he is indeed and electrical engineer. Without a fan... I don't even want to give an example. ~ R.T.G 14:52, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

examples ~ R.T.G 14:53, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Where I am from its not 110. It's 240, and that goes for a lot of places, including the UK. ~ R.T.G 14:56, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

But that's the propensity for electrocution. The problem with cardboard is overheating. The wattage. You know a 100 watt light bulb is a fire hazard. This thing is like 8 of them strapped together, wrapped up in cardboard, wrapped up in tin foil, without its standard safety protocols. It can't be truly safe. That's why the dust on your cooling fans goes a funny colour. It burns. And your CPU might only run 2 volts. It still burns. Very funny Guy you should give courses up in Howard College. ~ R.T.G 14:59, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

RTG, I mean, I'm from the UK, bit I was going by the target system. Heating is a good point. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 14:59, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Hmm. Might want to check that there in case there was a problem or something. ~ R.T.G 15:00, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

SHOCK! HORROR! Death. Destruction... You decide. ~ R.T.G 15:04, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Response to User:Bellezzasolo: (I have seen RTGs "inchoherent replying to himself" act before and am not impressed.)

I have looked at the notes that the student made. It is clearly an attempt by someone with very little knowledge (like I said,` a student) to hack some PC power supplies for more general use. While he would have benefited greatly from some advice from someone who knows what he is doing, hardware hacking by newbies is a Good Thing and should be encouraged. The student certainly shouldn't be criticized by the likes of RTG, who knows far less than the student and who focused in on one of the things the student did right, incorrectly calling it "dangerous".

What the student did right:

He had a plan.

He kept records.

He openly shared his plans and results with the world.

(All of https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Kmashaye5220/enes100 is worth looking at, Notice how much better he did on his third try vs. his first try).

His choice of a Pizza box was a good choice.

He didn't change the 120V connections. That switch connects the low voltage green power on wire to the black ground wire

What he could have done better on the Pizza box power supply:

Power supplies are cheap. He should have started with a PS that already has a fuze and power switch on the back.

The aluminum foil was just for show, and he should have cut it so that there was clearance around the output terminals. Or better yet, used paint.

He should have investigated why is is that the voltage / current / resistance numbers he posted don't follow Ohms law.

He should have calculated the power going into that resistor to see if he was overloading it.

The "ventilation holes" are too small and to few to do anything. Fortunately, most ATX power supplies run cool if you don't give them a maximum load.

All in all, a good job considering that he obviously had never done anything like this before. I hope he got a good grade. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Even if it works, it looks a bit amateurish and not ideal. In the UK and Europe with 230 Volt AC mains, there needs to be considerable care with anything connected to the mains supply.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:33, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

True, but doing things that look a bit amateurish and not ideal is what amateurs do. If we discourage the person who is just starting out, eventually we will have no experts. Every engineer started out as someone with zero knowledge and zero experience. In this particular case, the amateur made no changes to the 115V circuit (he isn't in the UK. but that matters little. a 230V main gives you a 115V shock if you are grounded, and 115V is plenty enough to kill you) and only hacked the low voltage side. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:06, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Plans are way more crap than preparations ~ R.T.G 18:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't think anyone would dispute that if this was going to be used for a long period of time, it should have a proper power supply case. Cardboard box ≠ mains power supply case.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:07, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. One can only hope that they discarded the first power supply they built at [13] and instead used the metal cased ones they built at [14] and [15]. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:25, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Guy Macon is right on the money here. This is the kind of thing we like to see. To be clear, of course working with electricity is dangerous. But there is no argument to make in this case that would not include banning every picture of an amateur electronic project sight unseen, not to mention hikes over dangerous rocks and visits to tourist attractions in dangerous countries. I mean, you woldn't want to encourage some poor fool to take his life in his hands visiting the Pyramids just so he can post to Wikipedia! You're not a Wikipedian's parent and it's not your place to order him not to climb a tree to get a picture of the top of it. Wnt (talk) 15:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)