Talk:Bangladesh Liberation War

"Believing that just such an Indian attack was imminent, Nixon encouraged China to mobilise its armed forces along its border with India to discourage it."

@Aman.kumar.goel, Boing! said Zebedee, Tibet Nation, MarkH21, and Voidvector: In the absence of a source for this claim, I feel that it ought to be removed from the page. Let me know if there is any source that would show that this statement is factually accurate. Thanks. Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:19, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

No. Stop WP:CANVASSING and see this and this. Orientls (talk) 13:07, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@Orientls: Thanks for your response. These sources do get closer to the mark, but I need to see specific, clear evidence from notes or documents on what steps the Nixon White House took in respect to their encouragement. Please give me the quotations. Did they call up Mao and say "hey new buddies, send some troops over there" or what specifically? The sources you give don't say what Nixon the man did in respect to encouraging China in this respect. Once the sources are really, really there, then I can remove the citation needed span. Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:13, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the two books you give are discussing the crisis. But what I'd like to see now is which quotes you propose to be justifying the statement "Nixon encouraged China". I need to see exactly what wording in the secondary source justifies the words "Nixon encouraged China" being used on Wikipedia mainspace. Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:17, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative:The Berlatsky source added by Orientls has this quote, which should be sufficient:

According to the State Department historian, 'When the fighting developed, the Nixon administration tilted toward Pakistan [...] It also involved encouraging China to make military moves to achieve the same end, and an assurance to China that if China menaced India and the Soviet Union moved against China in support of India, the United States would protect China from the Soviet Union. China chose not to menace India
— East Pakistan, p. 52-53

Minor modifications might be needed to be made to the paragraph, but this looks like it's supported by the source. — MarkH₂₁^talk 22:45, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@MarkH21: What I find interesting is that the Berlatsky source is only quoting an anonymous source and not making reference to sources proving the matter. Is a solitary quote of the State Department historian really sufficient to show that "Nixon encouraged China"? Is there any other secondary source beside this quotation from one person to show this event occurred? The quote doesn't go into the ways in which Nixon encouraged China and the manner in which China refused. "Encouragement" implies that there was some kind of communication or action taken on the part of Richard Nixon. What was that action? What if this historian was just speaking off the cuff? Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:58, 18 May 2020 (UTC) (modified)

I'm not saying these events (whatever they are proposed to be) didn't happen. I'm saying we have not yet reached the threshold to include it on Wikipedia. It's not sourced yet. Also, the crucial sentence in the quote above is grammatically malformed: "It also involved encouraging". This is not even a direct double quotation mark reliable quotation- it's a one-quotation mark paraphrase, and poorly written at that. At best, you've got a grammatically malformed paraphrase from an anonymous source in which "it" (= Nixon administration) may have done something, not Nixon. This is on the level of New Testament apocrypha level evidence for the actions of Jesus, not reliable history- "one guy told me something like this happened". Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:13, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

The State department historian office is a highly reliable source. They have a very strong team of scholars and access to all the documents, and they are not beholden in any way to Nixon. Reviews of their books in the scholarly literature are VERY strong. The published text is online at https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/xi/45650.htm Rjensen (talk) 23:26, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@Rjensen: From the source you added: "Nixon's prediction was borne out when it developed that China had no intention of threatening military action against India." What I'm looking for is a quotation that says that Nixon or the Nixon administration encouraged China to do something. The above quotation is said to be from a from a State Department historian, but it is an anonymous ungrammatical paraphrase. Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:07, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

the quote is "When the fighting developed, the Nixon administration "tilted" toward Pakistan. The tilt involved the dispatch of the aircraft carrier Enterprise to the Bay of Bengal to try to intimidate the Indian Government. It also involved encouraging China to make military moves to achieve the same end, and an assurance to China that if China menaced India and the Soviet Union moved against China in support of India, the United States would protect China from the Soviet Union." that is pretty clear to me and is from a highly reliable scholarly source (the State Dept History office) that scholars cite. 00:15, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

I have replaced the sentence with new content based on the State Department source. Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:18, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Here's a statement from a scholarly journal in 2012: "In 1971, the United States threatened India with the use of military force as West and East Pakistan disintegrated into Pakistan and Bangladesh....The Nixon administration eventually sent the USS Enterprise carrier battle group to the Bay of Bengal in an effort to deter India from what Nixon and national security advisor Henry Kissinger believed was its ultimate goal: the destruction of Pakistan. Although the United States and India never used military force, the threat was present—making the confrontation a militarized interstate dispute." [Jarrod Hayes, "Securitization, social identity, and democratic security: Nixon, India, and the ties that bind." International Organization 66.1 (2012): 63-93. [full text online free on pp 63-64 Rjensen (talk) 00:23, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

@Rjensen: Let me know what you think of the new wording. I used the State Department source to create the new sentence. Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:35, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Looks good re China. I recommend Add more on carrier "Enterprise" and cite Hayes article. 00:43, 19 May 2020 (UTC)Rjensen (talk)

Geographyinitiative thinks it is an "amazing and significant fact". I am not so sure it is. Applying pressure on India directly as well as indirectly via China was certainly on the cards. That is all our article is saying. But the State Department historian is saying something much stronger. They are saying Nixon encouraged China to "menace India". Does "menacing" mean just moving troops to the border? Even for Nixon lingo, that would have been too strong an expression. They are saying that Nixon was essentially trying to start a world war. There is an "amazing and significant fact". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:46, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: When we first started the discussion, I don't think there was enough evidence for the original sentence. Now there seems to be credible information that gets more specific about what happened. Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:49, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

re footnote 152 citing Noah Berlatsky --we can do better. the author "Noah Berlatsky edits the online comics-and-culture website The Hooded Utilitarian and is the author of the book Wonder Woman: Bondage and Feminism" -- this topic has been worked over by a number of established scholars. Rjensen (talk) 00:51, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Fronts of war

Bangladesh war included conflict with Pakistani state on both fronts by Indian armed forces. Indo Pakistan part of war is related to then border standoff and bombing Indian air bases and can't be seen in separation in anyway except its causes. As reliable sources either don't see both in separation, these edits by @DdBbCc22: are only misrepresentative and WP:POINTY. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 05:27, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

The immediate question is whether the strength of the Pakistan Armed Forces involved in the Bangladesh Liberation War was "~365,000 regular troops (~97,000+ in East Pakistan)" or simply "~97,000" [regular troops being implied by militiamen being listed separately].

Both points of view in the dispute cite [1] to support their position. The source contains the number 365,000, but I see no evidence that it is a reliable source for history (or WP:RS for anything, for that matter). Does website ACIG.org (Air Combat Information Group) have a reputation for accuracy and fact checking? The first source the authors list is "discussions on ACIG.org forum", which would not be a reliable source.

It would be helpful if both sides gave full citations to between one and three specific reliable sources that support their position rather than simply asserting that reliable sources are on their side. --Worldbruce (talk) 07:17, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Along with issue of more reliable sources, my point of view is that the "Bangladesh Liberation War" was fought in between Eastern commands of Pakistan armed forces and Indian armed forces (along with Mukhti Bahni). So only the number of troops of Eastern commands should be added. Because this article is solely about independence war of Bangladesh as the war in between Pakistan and India on western front has separate article.

But if my this point of view is wrong, then the number of Indian troops of western command should be added just like as for Pakistan because how it is possible that both commands of Pakistan armed forces were involved on both fronts but in case of India only Indian eastern command was involved on one front.DdBbCc22 (talk) 12:54, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Yours is a reasonable opinion, but Wikipedia's content is determined not by the beliefs of its editors, but by all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. Unless you cite reliable sources that support your view, the discussion is unlikely to reach a consensus that favours it. On the basis of the sources presented so far, the policy-based thing to do would be to remove all strength numbers on both sides except the ~25,000 militiamen. But that isn't what either side in the dispute wants, and we should be able to serve our readers better than that. --Worldbruce (talk) 13:54, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Hope so there will be consensus about my opinion. @Worldbruce:. I want to discuss some sources as mentioned below either they can be considered or not

1) The Betryal of Pakistan 1 - published by Oxford University Press.

2) Pakistan's War Machine: An Encyclopedia of its Weapons, Strategy.... - book published by UK based publisher

3) Sharmila Bose Indian Bangali writer

4) 4 - clearing the confusion about troops present in East Pakistan of both armies, Mukhti Bahni, soldiers ratio and POW's

5) 5 - troops of Pakistan and POW's

6) 6 - timeline from Operation searchlight to Fall of Dhaka, number of troops of Pakistan and Indian forces as well as Mukhti Bahni. DdBbCc22 (talk) 15:12, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Considering your six:

1. Datta, Antara (2012). Refugees and Borders in South Asia: The Great Exodus of 1971. Routledge. p. 27. ISBN 978-1-136-25036-1. By November 1971, they [the Mukti Bahini] had an estimated 45,000 soldiers. - This is a reliable source for history. The cited page has no information about the strength of Pakistani forces, which is the immediate question, but might be useful for the strength of the Mukti Bahini. It would be interesting to know what source Datta is citing for that figure.
2. Iqbal, Saghir (2018). Pakistan's War Machine: An Encyclopedia of its Weapons, Strategy and Military Security. CreateSpace. p. 27. ISBN 978-1-136-25036-1. - This is self-published, not a reliable source.
3. Bose, Sarmila (2011). Dead Reckoning: Memories of the 1971 Bangladesh War. Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-0-231-70164-8. - This is a reliable source for a significant viewpoint, but no one will consider it seriously without a page number.
4. Jabbar, Javed (22 December 2012). "Pakistani PoWs: correct figure". Dawn (Letter to Editor). - A letter to the editor in a newspaper is not a reliable source for history.
5. Khan, Masud Ahmed (17 December 2019). "Myths and realities of 1971 war". Daily Times (Commentary). - An opinion column in a newspaper is not a reliable source for history.
6. Ahmad, Junaid (1 April 2017). "93,000 Pakistani soldiers did not surrender in 1971 because….?". Global Village Space. - A posting by a management consultant on a random website is not a reliable source for history.

--Worldbruce (talk) 16:22, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

@DdBbCc22: Amendment of long established version without support of any reliable source is very problematic. The article doesn't cover only the battle happened on eastern front of Pakistan with Indian forces. But battles with de facto Pakistani in west, and all the diplomatic aspects along which together make up Bangladesh Liberation War. Until you gain concensus that Bangladesh liberation war was strictly only around battle in eastern Pakistani front and not related any Pakistani commands or diplomatic campaigns (which is highly unlikely), your version will be reverted right away. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 07:23, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

There are multiple fallacies in this article and seems more like a propaganda and biased article

1-In the introductory info box, whole Pakistani strength is written, while only that indian strength is written which was deployed on East Pakistan sector, which is not correct.

2-There is no reliable conformation that civilian casualities were upto 3 million, that is just a propaganda and a hoax.

3-There is no mention about the massacre of Biharis, Punjabis and Pathans which was carried out by Mukti Bahini and Indian BSF.

4-Here it is written that Pakistani troops deployed in East Pakistan numbered 76000 which is never verified as per reliable sources while it is confirmed as per pakistani authorities that there were no more than 45000 to 50000 soldiers ever deployed there.

5-There are sources supporting my claims as Some reputable books but you people already have refuted them above while you people have accepted Indian and Bangladeshi versions whole heartedly. Alizain6534 (talk) 07:44, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I think you just read the infobox. The article adequately covers point 2 and 3. For 1, the numbers were taken from a reputed sources. For 5, you may remember that 73,000 POWs returned to Pakistan. That would be strange if we believe in that 45,000 soldier theory. Anyways, you are most welcome to provide an alternative number, but do not miss to back it up with reliable sources. Even a Pakistani source need to reliable. You are also most welcome to point out which of sources used are unreliable and why. Being Indian or Bangladeshi doesn't make a source automatically unreliable. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 14:25, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 July 2020

result = Decisive Indian & Bangladeshi victory Reference = instrument of surrender: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Instrument_of_Surrender, https://archive.thedailystar.net/suppliments/2009/december/victorydayspecial/page01.htm, https://www.indiatimes.com/lifestyle/self/the-pakistan-instrument-of-surrender-in-1971-was-signed-by-my-grandfather-s-pen-248456.html 103.126.149.16 (talk) 00:54, 1 July 2020 (UTC) video reference: Replug : A 2012 interview with Lt. Gen (Retd) J.F.R. Jacob on India's historic victory in 1971 war : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq1Hq5bH9pQ

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jack Frost (talk) 01:34, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 July 2020

{{subst:trim|1=

Result: Decisive Allied Victory or Indian-Bangladeshi Victory {{Source: Pakistani Instrument of Surrender , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Instrument_of_Surrender) (Various book including)}

}} 'JamanK' (talk) 05:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ~ Amkgp 💬 07:22, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 July 2020

Result = Decisive India and Bangladeshi Alliance Victory (Reference: https://archive.thedailystar.net/suppliments/2009/december/victorydayspecial/page01.htm) 'JamanK' (talk) 05:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: The word "decisive" does not appear in the source or in the current version of this article. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:34, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 July 2020

AjmainFaieq (talk) 19:50, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Bangldesh Liberation war is the biggest achievement in the history of Bangladesh

Right AjmainFaieq (talk) 19:51, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:10, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

To update a information

Liberation war of Bangladesh took place in 1971 from 26th of March till 16th December.This war happened under the leadership of Bangladesh Government in exile. India joined the war on 3rd December and took part in the war as a part of India Bangladesh joint forces. The victory of Liberation war is of both Bangladesh and India. But it is written in the result info box that it is an Indian victory. It should be India Bangladesh joint forces victory. So,I would request the concerned editor to update the information. Yamin Chowdhury (talk) 10:28, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Most importantly, according to the instrument of surrender, Pakistan surrendered to the joint Bangladeshi and Indian forces, so officially it's a Bangladeshi-Indian joint victory. There are some cherrypicked sources added to cite the claim of Indian victory, but I'm not sure if they really pass WP:HISTRS. For instance, author of one of the sources, V. K. Nayar, is an ex-Indian Army officer. The stable version of this article always showed Bangladeshi-Indian victory as the result in infobox, and it seems it has been changed without any consensus. I'm reverting it back to this stable version. --Zayeem ^(talk) 18:04, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

You can't push "Bangladeshi-Indian victory" without provided that both official and unofficial sources call it so. The last "stable" version you are talking about was once interrupted by someone and both bothered by others for long. The existing concensus is that all available sources mention it as "Indian victory" what led to liberation of Bangladesh. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 13:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not "pushing" Bangladeshi-Indian victory, this is what stated by the official instrument of surrender which was incidentally formulated by an Indian general himself. The document can be accessed in the wikipedia article and I did provide a note with references (carrying the surrender document) when I edited this article. I don't see any WP:CONSENSUS in the discussion you linked. You can't put forth your own statement as "the existing consensus" since you were involved in the dispute as I can see in the article history. The only third opinion in that discussion seems to be Rzvas who's comments are also aligned with my interpretation of joint victory. And as I said, the sources cited here don't even pass WP:HISTRS, books published by obscure agencies, memoirs written by ex-Indian officers or authors without any credentials are not reliable. Even if you show a reliable source, that won't necessarily prove it was an exclusively Indian victory, overriding the official document. There are many sources that state that World War II resulted in American victory but the most commonly accepted interpretation is that it was Allied victory. --Zayeem ^(talk) 15:01, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Aman, I believe you are getting carried away by the WP:TRUTH. But, as things are, Wikipedia is about published information from WP:RELIABLE sources, not the truth. And, at that, nothing is more reliable than an "official" instrument of surrender, signed by Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi military commands. A document that is publicly available from both official and unofficial channels. I don't think you will ever be able to hold up the "Indian victory" hearsay at the Wikipedia. If needed we can take this to bigger forum for discussion, and seek opinion from uninvolved editors. If you really want an Indian victory, you may have it at Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, though the same Instrument also covers that war, and hence "officially" is an Indo-Bangladeshi victory. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 15:32, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Aditya Kabir: Falsifying statements of other editors is not going to help you with your erroneous WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. What Aman Kumar Goel added back is completely supported by WP:RS. Since you have failed to understand such a simple fact, I would recommend you to take a look at WP:CIR.

@Kmzayeem: I find it rather surprising that you talk about WP:HISTRS yet you stick to unreliable web news sources such as the ones you added on this edit. You are also misrepresenting the reliability of sources by ignoring Scarecrow Press source which is of high quality and you are cobbling it up with some "memoirs written by ex-Indian officers". How about you find a source as credible or more credible than Scarecrow Press supporting your unsourced claim that the result was "Bangladeshi-Indian victory" instead of throwing your false analysis of consensus? Orientls (talk) 15:50, 7 August 2020 (UTC)