Talk:Israel

New map needed

This map doesn’t show Israel with Golan even in shaded colors as often appears... Zarcademan123456 (talk) 03:48, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Can we use this map? Includes controversial Golan heights (governed y’all Israel for over 50 years) Zarcademan123456 (talk) 06:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

http://ontheworldmap.com/israel/ Zarcademan123456 (talk) 06:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree, the maps used for Israel in this article should include the Golan, especially in light of the United States recognition of the Golan Heights as part of Israel. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

I would not object, as it seems reasonable to me to use a map showing land that was regained by Israel. Ihaveadreamagain (talk) 18:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

"Regained"? That's funny. Zero^talk 02:51, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Name of article is "Israel", not "Israel and the Golan Heights" so the infobox should only show Israel, not occupied territories. Further down the article there is a map showing occupied lands: [1] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

It's disputed territory. But on the Russia article, the infobox map shows Crimea as a disputed territory. The map of Israel in this article should do the same thing with the Golan Heights. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:00, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

All of Israel is disputed territory, so the map should show all of Israel as being disputed. Different conflicts have different solutions, what might work in the Russia article is not suitable here. The map here further down the article showing occupied territories in enough. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:22, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Look at the maps of India, Pakistan, and China showing the area it controls despite them being disputed. Golan should be shown. YaLindaHadad (talk) 15:31, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Found book name for Gnuse 1997, pp. 28, 31[title missing]

Under the section titled Antiquity, footnote 92 reads "Gnuse 1997, pp. 28, 31[title missing]", but I found the title of the book is No Other Gods: Emergent Monotheism in Israel. The author's full name is Robert Karl Gnuse. The citation should be

Wikitext: Parsed wikitext: Gnuse, Robert Karl (1997). No Other Gods: Emergent Monotheism in Israel. England: Sheffield Academic Press Ltd. pp. 28, 31. ISBN 1-85075-657-0.

I do not have access rights to edit. --Ihaveadreamagain (talk) 16:41, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

References

 Done - I have corrected this. Thanks, Bakertheacre ^Chat/_{What I Baked} 23:18, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Late Antiquity

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Current opening:

In 634–641 CE, the region, including Jerusalem, was conquered by the Arabs who had recently adopted Islam.

Can we use this instead, since it's pretty relevant esp. re: Saladin's later mention:

In 634–641 CE, the region, including Jerusalem, was conquered by the Arabs who had recently adopted Islam. According to Jewish tradition, Muslim caliph Umar set aside the Christian ban on Jews and allowed them into Jerusalem to worship.

---

Also, why does the box say I have a conflict of interest?

Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 15:08, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure, the "reqeust edit" is for COI editing. You can remove the "|answered=yes" if you do have one. You may be wanting {{edit extended-protected}}  Darth Flappy ^«Talk» 20:13, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 July 2020

For the first bbc refernce. Could someone add the author, Phil Mercer. Thank you. Just 28 cats (talk) 02:14, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done The article is not written by Phil Mercer, only the analysis. The article does not use this analysis. The article does not state an author. IWI (chat) 03:16, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Protection

Why is this article protected, as there is content i’d like to add but am not able to. Of Crazykids43 (talk) 18:58, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 July 2020

In the subsection "After World War II" there is a minor error in the last sentence of the first paragraph. It says "Jewish refugees attempted enter Palestine" instead of "attempted to enter" Chomsky96 (talk) 18:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

 Done ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Edit war attempts being made by Anti-Semetic Websites like 4chan

Hello, I just wanted to drop in and alert those at wikipedia to the fact that there is an ongoing cyber harassment campaign being directed towards this page at the hands of the politically incorrect board on 4chan. The last attempt at organizing an edit war was held on 08/05/2020 with the time stamp for the thread advising members of the anonymous image board being listed as 17:59:56 with a post number of 271282455. While I am not familiar with wikipedia, I am however familiar enough with attempts being made to rewrite history for anti-semetic purposes. If there is a way for a moderator to place a lock on the page to prevent any more anti-semetic edits being done it would greatly reduce the attempts to paint the nation of Israel in a negative manner.

The edit mentioned is as follows: “The state has attracted criticism for a variety of reasons including: its apparent nuclear weapons arsenal, Israeli civilian settlements built on lands occupied by Israel, the Judaization of Jerusalem as observed by the United Nations under Israeli sovereignty of the city, its targeted killings program, widespread racism despite broad anti-discrimination laws within the country, observed human rights abuses and violations, and an alleged manifestation of an apartheid regime.”

Please forgive me once again for the poorly structured comments section on the talk page. I am new to wikipedia and do not speak English as my primary language. I did not want to touch the article itself as I do not want to do anything that may be against the terms of service for wikipedia. Thank you, -Seth — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:9B40:7090:C9B6:28E5:D70D:2CB5 (talk) 22:35, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

This is concerning. Good thing you've noticed. HelpHelper (talk) 22:40, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

This is factually incorrect. I have screenshot evidence showing that I was harassed, insulted, and threatened me numerous times by a Canadian individual who claimed that they would revert my edit. In addition, my edit was all factual information backed up by wikipedia articles on the subject and 11 reliable citations, with no anti-semitic content or intent in any capacity.TheEpicGhosty (talk) 22:43, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

The fact that you've admitted to engaging in this war is very concerning. This seems like a deliberate attempt to spread your anti Semetic ideology. HelpHelper (talk) 22:51, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I will be including the screenshots here if this escalates any further than it already has. TheEpicGhosty (talk) 22:48, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I have just confirmed that the individual who was harassing me is actually HelpHelper. I have screenshot evidence, something he posted himself that included his Wiki bio, and screenshots from the same user that clearly show him harassing, disparaging me, calling me a rabid anti-semite among other things. TheEpicGhosty (talk) 22:52, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I have removed the POV crap from lede, although I'm not claiming it's antisemitic or created by 4chan (wouldn't be surprised if that was the case, though). There is already a paragraph dedicated to the various accusations against Israel at the end of this section.--Aroma Stylish (talk) 22:56, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I would like to go on record with the following screenshots [cut] Compare that with his user page before today: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:HelpHelper&oldid=953229798TheEpicGhosty (talk) 23:06, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Here is evidence of the attempted raid of the article by 4chan https://boards.*chan.org/pol/thread/271270896 (insert 4 where the * is) Wordbearer88 (talk) 23:10, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

In any case I would like to appeal the revert of my edit. TheEpicGhosty (talk) 23:18, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Does anyone else think it's odd that any legitimate criticisms of Israel are always "anti-semitic"?2604:6000:7AC2:1800:A42B:3A1:EE25:D089 (talk) 00:22, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Take the persecution complex somewhere else. Next time you plan to raid don't make a thread gloating about it. You're very bad at this! Wordbearer88 (talk) 00:53, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

There is no raid. There was never any such thing. Also, this has been taken to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Israel From that link: "I never called for vandalism in any capacity. You cannot attribute the actions of other people to me. This was never a raid. Any objective observer would determine that. I merely told them that I had made such an edit. Actually, I had made the post in RESPONSE to people talking about Wikipedia being biased. I hoped that if they saw that my post stayed up, they would at least reserve such judgement. Alas, it has been taken down." Make of that what you will. It appears that the screenshots that show HelpHelper being extremely hostile, and engaging in wholly unacceptable behavior are being ignored here. TheEpicGhosty (talk) 01:39, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

It is also important to mention that HelpHelper accused me of being an anti-semite ON Wikipedia too: "The fact that you've admitted to engaging in this war is very concerning. This seems like a deliberate attempt to spread your anti Semetic ideology" I believe this is actionable.TheEpicGhosty (talk) 01:51, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

You posted on a white supremacist website about your intention to change wikipedia content to fit your political agenda. Quit the pity party already. You could have actually done something if you hadn't gone to gloating on 4chan about it but now it's out in the open. Raids are not to be tolerated. Wordbearer88 (talk) 01:58, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

It is not a white supremacist website, that would be Stormfront. I'm a Muslim non-white. I never said anything about changing anything to fit a political agenda. This is blatant falsehoods. In fact, I mentioned numerous times that I wanted to merely match the Saudi Arabian lede and incorporate stuff from other Wikipedia articles into the lede of the Israel article. Stop slandering my character. No raid occurred. TheEpicGhosty (talk) 02:01, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Match the POV lede in Saudi Arabia that YOU added? It's strange you didn't do it for Iran's lede. Clearly you are not in this encyclopedia to improve it, but to advance your own POV agenda.--Aroma Stylish (talk) 02:21, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia's own article on 4chan disagrees about it not being white supremacist. And yeah you're a muslim non-white? I'm a Hindu Mexican. What now? The fact you advertised your raid on 4chan just shows how poorly thought out this whole thing was. No go back to your /pol/ thread and cry about how unfair it all is. Or maybe you want to accuse me of being a sockpuppet again? Every minute, a new excuse. Wordbearer88 (talk) 02:13, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

As I said, there was no raid. Also, I find it very telling that within seconds of these messages being sent, screencaps are in turn floating back to 4chan, praising you. I stand by my suspicion that you are a sockpuppet for HelpHelper. If any mods or admins would like to double-check this, would be appreciated.TheEpicGhosty (talk) 02:17, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

It would take two seconds to falsify your hypothesis if one can see the browser activity and IP addresses of both of us. I've never even heard of Wordbearer88 up until today. HelpHelper (talk) 02:27, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Aroma Stylish I was going to get around to doing that one next. Again, stop putting words in my mouth, stop assuming my agenda, and stop slandering my character, thank you. TheEpicGhosty (talk) 02:24, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

In any case, lede is supposed to summarize main points of article. There's no obligation to add an entire paragraph of criticism in lede for every country, specially if, as in this case, there's only one paragraph (more balanced) for criticism of Israel. It's not proper WP:DUE to add a one-sided list of accusations in lede, as you did.--Aroma Stylish (talk) 02:36, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

This is my reasoning behind the edits (I shouldn't have to explain this, as @Clone commando sev made it crystal-clear in the DRN that you can't use an unfounded accusation of a political agenda as an excuse to revert an edit, as you have. This means that neither you, nor @HelpHelper, nor @Wordbearer88 should throw around false, unfounded accusations of bias, anti-semitism, or a hidden political agenda.) Nevertheless- is it not true that both Saudi Arabia and Israel are embroiled in controversy in the contemporary era? Is this notable, objective observation that both countries are the subject of controversy and criticism not grounds to at least mention it deep down in the lede?TheEpicGhosty (talk) 11:40, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

The rules of DRN only apply to DRN which is an entirely voluntary. Clone commando sev has less than 500 edits, has shown no real expertise, and can't find the shift key, so even if we were to go to DRN it would not be one run by them. After seeing the reddit thread it question, I can attest that you did not say anything directly anti-semetic, but you did reply approvingly to someone who did, and made no note of the vile anti-semetism in the thread while continuing to post in the thread. You also made repeated refernce to Kek which is a meme of the alt-right. Taken together this means you should probably stay away from Jewish Topics.AlmostFrancis (talk) 17:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Sidestepping the 4chan stuff, there's an obvious problem, and the DRN thread should just be closed. In general, the lead summarizes the article; it doesn't summarize the subject. It's a weird distinction sometimes, but nothing should appear in the lead that isn't already in the body of the article. So regardless of what specifically you added, because much of it isn't presented as such in the body, it had to go. Adding "criticisms" to the lead that aren't even in the body is the reddest of red flags for "POV pushing" and is going to get reverted. The first step would be to make the case for adding these issues to the article body, then making the case for a proportional summary in the lead. But it's not like we don't cover criticism of Israel['s government]. In fact, we have a whoooole long article about it (AFAIK we don't have one of those for Saudi Arabia, which I see was compared above), not to mention a bunch of other stand-alone articles on individual elements (linked from the top of various sections of the criticism page). You could argue that WP:SUMMARYSTYLE isn't being followed here with respect to those subjects covered elsewhere, but you'll probably want to do that in the form of a proposal on the talk page. Editing a page that's not only a top-level subject that has lots of spin-off pages but also highly controversial is a pretty sure way to spend a lot of time on the talk page arguing for small changes. FWIW. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:47, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

In any case, there is an ANI filing now that is also encompassing the Saudi lede now, which was reverted back to my edit by another user.TheEpicGhosty (talk) 15:07, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Whether or not it's appropriate to put the text in the lede, let's not pretend that agendas and ideologies play no part in Wikipedia generally. You can't not allow an edit because you think the editor has a motive behind it. All editors do, especially on political topics. As long as it's sourced and fairly well accepted and the balance of the article appears neutral, you have to accept it. It could be Adolf Hitler himself editing Jewish-related articles, it's still the information and sources you have to consider.2600:8807:5405:CE00:7DAE:CCCB:6022:351A (talk) 20:01, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

let's not pretend that agendas and ideologies play no part in Wikipedia generally - For these purpose, actually let's do that. WP:AGF is pretty fundamental to get things done around here. Getting into speculations about motives and agendas is only going to lead you astray. Having an opinion doesn't mean you're unable to edit neutrally if you want to. It's only a problem when it runs afoul of our policies. As such, there's not much point in pointing to motives when you can point to policy problems. I won't speak for anyone involved, but if I had seen the edit before it popped up at WP:ANI, I would've suggested reverting, too, for the reasons I mentioned above. That has nothing to do with the person who added it. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:19, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I have made an altered, significantly shorter, and a more neutral lede edit (I reviewed the original edit over and over, and I decided that it was too hostile, even if that wasn't my intention). Here it is:

"The state has attracted criticism for its policy regarding territories occupied by it, its apparent nuclear weapons arsenal, and its targeted killings program among other reasons."

I hope this will be satisfactory to resolve at least the matter of the lede edit's content itself. TheEpicGhosty (talk) 23:51, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Was advised by RegentsPark to include the revised edited lede addition to the article in order to ensure that consensus is present. TheEpicGhosty (talk) 11:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Vague comments about an email you sent does not consensus make. If RegentsPark really supports your edit they can say so themselves. AlmostFrancis (talk) 17:17, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

 Administrator note: TheEpicGhosty, this is a highly sensitive page. Please ensure you have consensus before engaging in WP:ARBPIA edits to the lead which are significant in scope. El_C 17:21, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Alright. I shall await further consensus before making any lede edits. TheEpicGhosty (talk) 18:55, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

My apologies. I was not clear in my post on TheEpicGhosty's talk. TheEpicGhosty, you need to propose your changes and see if that proposal sticks. My larger point is that an admin cannot determine what should or should not go in the lede (or elsewhere in the article) but that you should seek consensus for your edits. Best wishes. --RegentsPark (comment) 19:02, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

No worries! Thank you for the clarification :) TheEpicGhosty (talk) 19:21, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

From WP:LEAD:

“ The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. ”

Israel having been repeatedly condemned internationally and by human rights organizations for its actions in the occupied territories without question belongs in the lead of this article. It's kind of obscene that it is not currently detailed appropriately. I will be adding some material to bring this lead up to our standards. nableezy - 20:21, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I saw your edit. Shall I add the stuff regarding targeted killings and the nuclear weapons program later? TheEpicGhosty (talk) 21:29, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I think the lead should only really have the biggest things, so I would leave both of those out of the lead. nableezy - 22:03, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

The lead section already mentions Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories — but if there is consensus to mention it twice in whatever capacity, that's fine. It would be prudent, in any case, to make sure consensus favouring that addition is relatively firm, however. El_C 22:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Affirmative. TheEpicGhosty (talk) 23:42, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

No need for duplication or highlighting criticism of small portion of the country. 11Fox11 (talk) 02:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Imho, the settlement project definitely should be mentioned in the lead. It is a defining feature of the state. I also think other, uninteresting details, could be cut out of the lead because it is getting too long.ImTheIP (talk) 04:37, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

The lead following the revert by 11Fox11 contains that Israel extended its laws to EJ and the Golan but not that that those actions were internationally condemned and rejected as null and void. It includes none of the sustained criticisms that Israel has generated for its actions in the occupied territory. The claim in the edit summary that there is duplication for any of this material is a straightforward falsehood. There is nothing that was mentioned twice, and I will open an RFC over this straightforward violation of NPOV. nableezy - 16:37, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

References

RFC

Should the lead of this article include criticisms of Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories and its annexations of the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem where those annexations are mentioned? Should the lead include Israel's settlement project and the sustained condemnations of that project from the international community? Nableezy 16:47, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yes, WP:LEAD requires that prominent controversies about a topic be included in the lead. Currently the lead of this article includes Israel's claim to East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights without including that those claims have been repeatedly rejected by the international community as illegal and null and void (yes, the US became the sole exception to that wide consensus in the last year, it remains a wide consensus). Even our article Jerusalem, where this was settled in one of the widest RFCs in the topic area ever, makes clear Israel's position and the rest of the world's. It includes no criticism of Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories, though that occupation is one of the most thoroughly remarked upon by such bodies as the UN Security Council and General Assembly, the International Court of Justice, the International Committee of the Red Cross, and is the topic countless of scholarly sources. This criticism is a defining trait of the modern state of Israel since 1967 and none of it is included. WP:DUE demands that this material be given it's due weight. WP:LEAD demands that notable and prominent controversies be included in the lead. Currently this lead simply glosses over what any other overview of Israel details. The lead of this article, like any other article, needs to comply with WP:NPOV, and currently it completely ignores some of the most notable aspects about the topic. Even a cursory look at the sources at Israeli occupation of the West Bank would demonstrate the complete noncompliance with WP:WEIGHT in this lead. nableezy - 16:47, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

• Already covered sufficiently. The LEAD has 4 paragraphs. The first is basic geography, the second is 3000 years of history, the entirety of the third long paragraph is devoted to the Arab-Israeli conflict including the occupation and aspects of it, the fourth short paragraph is devoted to all other aspects of modern Israel. The present LEAD covers the conflict too much, it does not need to be expanded and other aspects currently reduced to a few words need expanding. 11Fox11 (talk) 18:13, 11 August 2020 (UTC)