Talk:Marxism–Leninism

Useful material from 'Leninism'-- better here!

Near the end of the 1920s in the Soviet Union, Marxism-Leninism was proclaimed the official ideology of the Communist Party. The concept of Marxism-Leninism is somewhat different to, although by no means contrary to, the concept of Leninism. Both terms have since been used by communist parties, although with different functions. Marxism-Leninism is used to describe the basic ideology of the Communist Party, whereas Leninism is often used when discussing the organizational model of the party. Dissident groups within the communist tradition, such as Trotskyists and Luxembourgists, often consider the term Marxism-Leninism to be a euphemism for "Stalinism".

Marxism-Leninism taught in Soviet academic institution was the discipline that consisted of four parts:

1. History of the Communist Party
2. Marxist-Leninist Philosophy (dialectical materialism)
3. Marxist-Leninism polytical economy
4. Scientific communism (discussion of how communism can be built)

BunnyHop why did you remove such a massive section?

@BunnyyHop: How is Oxford, Cambridge, Jstor and decided papers a NPOV, and why are you saying they are a fringe theory. Did you even take a look at the sources, I am nearly 90% sure you didn't, because it all is extremely reliable. Vallee01 (talk) 22:19, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@BunnyyHop: Not only did you remove my recent sections, you also removed years old information written in 2013! All information is excellently sourced. Seriously. Vallee01 (talk) 22:21, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

BunnyyHop and Vallee01, no one is denying that a famine happened. However, there is a scholarly debate (see Holodomor genocide question). Even one of your sources say that "[h]istorians agree that a famine did take place and millions of Ukrainian peasants died. The exact number of victims is not known but scholars agree that the number is somewhere between 3 and 10 million. Scholars also disagree over what role the Soviet Union played in the tragedy. Some scholars point to Stalin as the mastermind behind the famine, due to his hatred of Ukrainians (Hosking, 1987). Others assert that Stalin did not actively cause the famine, but knew about it and did nothing to stop it (Moore, 2012). Still other scholars argue that the famine was just an effect of the Soviet Union’s push for rapid industrialization and a by-product of that was the destruction of the peasant way of life (Fischer, 1935). The final school of thought argues that the Holodomor was caused by factors beyond the control of the Soviet Union and Stalin took measures to reduce the effects of the famine on the Ukrainian people (Davies & Wheatcroft, 2006)." Since we have a Criticism section, I think a summary can be put in the lead as I have done here. Please, let us discuss this civilly and not edit warring. Davide King (talk) 13:11, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

It's not good to put criticism in the overview section. It doesn't happen in any other ideological article exactly because confuses the writer and goes against the guidelines. As for the Holodomor question (Which is not the point of my edits), I generally refuse Cold War researchers since they didn't have access to soviet archives and some were even on the payroll of the CIA (See: Who Paid The Piper?). Criticism should not be put on the overview section for many reasons which are delimited in the WP:NPV and the WP:Criticism pages. It should be either incorporated within the article (which is not recommended for ideologies), or in a criticism section (recommended in this case). Wikipedia already has an article about critics analogous to Marxism-leninism. Criticism would be explaining what happened, why those happened and what Marxism-leninism has to do with it, which is something the Wikipedia article tries to do. "Red fascism" is simply a pejorative term used for the Stalinist period of the USSR, not Marxism-leninism. As for state capitalism, one of your sources doesn't refer to anything related to marxism-leninism, but it doesn't have to. State capitalism is not a critic but a misunderstanding of both what scientific socialism is, and what state capitalism is. Socialism is a process and therefore saying that Marxism-leninism is "state capitalism" is erroneous. Debatable examples of "state capitalism" could be China, the USSR under the NEP, and any other countries analogous to those situations. It's not debatable that criticisms should be on the forefront of the article because it goes against the guidelines and our rule of conduct should hold them supreme. The content itself is not really a critic to Marxism-leninism, but rather a non NPV of historical events perpetrated by Marxist-leninist states, and I suggest removing those and linking to the Wikipedia article I mentioned above. Those articles are specially for criticism, and it should be linked whenever it's possible. I'll put the criticism on the criticism section, and then we'll see what we can do about the rest. BunnyyHop (talk) 22:37, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

@BunnyyHop: @Davide King: Maybe as a compromise we should cut down the fat of this paragraph moving it into Criticism, but keep a 4-5 sentences about criticisms of Marxist Leninism held together with some other information? Also even if the Holodmor was not entirely intentional, KGB records do show that much of the famine was intentional. The KGB hoarded grains from farmers and left the rest to starve to sell it for equipment. I think that it shouldn't have so much fat however, but I do think it should still be present but be less long. Vallee01 (talk) 04:49, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

It is very simple. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the body and Criticism is part of that, so I think my wording was fine. That you think the state capitalism criticism is wrong is besides the point, it is a notable criticism, hence it is reported. That the same standard is not applied to capitalism or liberalism, I agree, but there is nothing we can do if reliable sources do not point it out. But I agree that we can not, and should not say, they have engaged in genocidcal acts because scholars actually disagree on that, especially on the Holodomor. That you think it was, based on KGB records, it does not change the disagreement among scholars, as is reported even in one of your sources. We go by reliable sources and consensus among scholars, not what individual edits think. I believe my wording was a perfectly fine compromise and also avoid a few unnecessary repetition which made it longer. Davide King (talk) 12:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

"Anti-Stalinist left and many other left-wing critics see it as an example of state capitalism[21][22] and have referred to it as a "red fascism" contrary to left-wing politics.[23][24][25]." I'll remove this. These accusations are specific to the stalinist period of the USSR and will confuse the reader. It's not about Marxism-leninism in general, but rather something specific. Stalinism BunnyyHop (talk) 13:48, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

BunnyyHop, I disagree. That criticism does not refer specifically to that period, although obviously it is the most important and compared one. Davide King (talk) 13:57, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

BunnyyHop You very clearly have extreme POV, for starters most of all the things listed are not true. It must be 2 or 3 sentences. Please stop, I know you most likely adore Stalin and Mao and the mass murders they committed but this isn't ok on Wikipedia, stop. Stop posting fringe theories. Vallee01 (talk) 08:59, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01 My opinion doesn't have anything to do with this. All those things are backed by sources just like yours, I'll add some more and then I'll create a new edit. BunnyyHop (talk) 10:23, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

BunnyyHop Your entire section is completely bogus, I have no idea how to respond to it, Stalin did not implement democratic reforms, nor did Mao you, appear to posting complete fringe theories. Their is no debate as to if Marxist Leninist's states enacted mass murder and genocides, you are not going to do anything to that section nor can you. As to you're section on the benefits of Marxist Leninism I don't know how to respond to this.. Vallee01 (talk) 15:06, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01 You have no idea of what Marxism-Leninism is if you believe it's "Mao and Stalin". BunnyyHop (talk) 17:34, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Since the article is about the ideology, the material does not belong there. This section reads more like criticism of Communism than criticism of Marxism-Leninism. For example, genocide in Poland was not part of the official ideology. There were no explaining when it was in society's interest and it was not used to justify government policy in Poland, where it would be most unpopular, even among Polish leaders. TFD (talk) 20:44, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

The Four Deuces, I agree. The problem with most Communist-related articles is that, besides confusing small-c communism for Marxism–Leninism, they rely too much on "traditionalists", "totalitarian", "orthodox", "Draperite", "conservative", "right-wing", "anti-Communist" et al. accounts as we write at Soviet and Communist studies. Of course, Wikipedia is not a reliable source itself, but what we write there seems to be accurate from what I have read and researched. Yet, we give too much or only weight to the first camp, or even state it as fact. As it is a field rife with conflict and controversy, this is not like climate change or the Holocaust, for which there is overwhelmingly consensus among scholars and thus it would be an example of false balance to give equal weight to both views. Most, if not all, Communist-related articles need to be revised to make sure both views are proportionally represented according to due weight and neutrality. Davide King (talk) 23:32, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Marxist Leninist states have absolutely engaged in genocidal actions, they are not "accused" of doing so. @Davide King:I have question: Did genocides or mass killings did not occur under Marxist-Leninist states, or do you believe Marxist-Leninist states have not engaged in enough mass killings to justify the inclusion. I don't understand you're point, Wikipedia already has a stance on the Holodmor and it extremely clearly defines it as a genocide List of genocides by death toll. If you have sources the contrary please cite them. I don't know what to state, Marxist Leninist states have engaged in mass killings and genocides, to deny such a fact is impossible. Do you genuinely think Marxist Leninist states haven't directly ordered mass killings, which have photographic, and direct access to the mass graves and their bodies? I am a leftist so I obviously believe much of it is over exaturagted nonsense. However from point do you stand and why? Thanks. Vallee01 (talk) 21:53, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01, first of all, thank you for discussing this here rather than edit warring. I suggest you to read Wikipedia:Other stuff exists regarding you raising the point that "Wikipedia already has a stance on the Holodmor and it extremely clearly defines it as a genocide List of genocides by death toll". For example, the reason why we have a Holodomor genocide question article is because not all scholars agree it was a genocide, even though they all agree it was a terrible time and a tragedy. Legitimate scholars such as Amartya Sen give a more nuanced picture of the Great Chinese Famine. Those who disagree the Holodomor was a genocide or simply that Stalin was the sole culprit or that Stalin and the Soviet government did it on purpose, rather than arguing that more could have be done as some scholars do, or give other reasons for the Great Chinese Famine such as the lack of democracy rather than 'Communism' itself, are not apologists or negationists; they do not deny the suffering and tragedy of the events; and revisionism, rather than negationism, is a legitimate and indeed fundamental part of historiography. I am not denying that mass killings et al. happened but as wrote here by Paul Siebert there are scholars who reject that 'Communist' mass killings is a special or separate category of mass killings, without denying that mass killings happened.

Second, one of the sources you yourself added summarises a more nuanced picture among scholars. Whatever I personally think of Communist states and whether they did or did not commit genocide is irrelevant (I tend to hold the views of legitimate scholars, although I may sometimes disagree or agree with some points, etc.), Communist and Soviet studies is a controversial, conflictual and politicised field and there are legitimate scholars who disagree with the "anti-communist" or "orthodox" historiography" without being apologists for the regimes; and indeed agree on many facts with the orthodox but giving a different and more nuanced interpretation of the events. I have no sympathy for Communist regimes and I believe anarchists have their legitimate reasons to be so critical of them, but I reject the view that they were equal to Nazism; and this view is not just my personal view but it is held by legitimate academics, historians and scholars. If I can make a personal comment, you describe yourself as anarchist but you seem to take the "orthodox" views and historians as facts, even though scholars disagree ("Some scholars point to Stalin as the mastermind behind the famine, due to his hatred of Ukrainians (Hosking, 1987). Others assert that Stalin did not actively cause the famine, but he knew about it and did nothing to stop it (Moore, 2012). Still other scholars argue that the famine was just an effect of the Soviet Union's push for rapid industrialization and a by-product of that was the destruction of the peasant way of life (Fischer, 1935). The final school of thought argues that the Holodomor was caused by factors beyond the control of the Soviet Union and Stalin took measures to reduce the effects of the famine on the Ukrainian people (Davies & Wheatcroft, 2006."). If I can make another more personal comment, I find it curious because the same historians you cited and used in your edits such as Service would turn their "anti-communist" historiography into "anti-anarchist" historiography, if their roles were reversed.

I believe The Four Deuces also have a point that "the article is about the ideology, the material does not belong there. This section reads more like criticism of Communism than criticism of Marxism-Leninism. For example, genocide in Poland was not part of the official ideology. There were no explaining when it was in society's interest and it was not used to justify government policy in Poland, where it would be most unpopular, even among Polish leaders." As they also wrote here, "Anti-Communism does not mean opposition to Communism, but opposition to an extreme degree. That doesn't mean that their books are unreliable but that they present one view of events [emphasis mine added]." This is a problem of most Communist-related articles in that they tend to state some controversial notions (death tolls, genocide questions, the attribution of famines and other tragedies to 'Communist' ideology only and not to other external factors, or a mix of both, NPOV failure to provide mainstream, "anti-anticommunist" or simply "revisionist" accounts, etc.) as facts and other legitimate historians, who reject the more "anti-Communist" scholars without being pro-Communists themselves or apologists (which is the criticism some "anti-Communist scholars" give them while some of them being themselves accused of representing "anti-communist propagandists" by some of those legitimate "revisionist" and even some "orthodox" historians) are not given enough weight or relied on to provide other mainstream interpretations. As the field has been so controversial and politicised, we should rely on both schools and views rather than rely only on one view (usually the "orthodox" view) as we do for most Communist-related articles. Davide King (talk) 06:10, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

@Vallee01:,

(shortly) yes, Marxist-Leninist states have absolutely engaged in genocidal actions.(KIENGIR (talk) 23:25, 20 October 2020 (UTC))

Governments across the political spectrum have engaged in mass killings, but this is the only one that that gives it that level of detail or even mentions it. The topic of the article isn't why Communism is bad but what is their ideology. TFD (talk) 23:54, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

The Four Deuces, I agree, that makes sense. We should make more of an analysis than criticism; for that, we already have Criticism of communist party rule. How do you suggest to word it? Davide King (talk) 10:53, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Upon viewing the discussion on Communist Mass Killings, and how some people want to underplay the horrible, rape, murder and genocides enacted under such regimes I can't in good faith state this. Previous information stated should be disregarded. Vallee01 (talk) 13:18, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Just to be sure. Do you think it's okay to put such a big paragraph containing accusations about Stalinism while the guidelines strictly advocate for things like this to be put within the article (providing historical context)? The criticism section is pretty small compared to the article, and yet it occupies massive space within the head because it's a condemnation of Stalinism which doesn't really fit here. Try to generalize it and not put accusations specific to the Stalinist period on the USSR, but to the 30 countries that were or are marxist-leninist states. It should be generalized because it's a necessity to attempt to fit all of them, not just one nor one specific time period. BunnyyHop (talk) 02:50, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

BunnyyHop, I agree there is a problem that most Communist-related article follow only one-side and violates NPOV. However, not all of your edits were helpful and going in the opposiute direction also violates NPOV. That it is "the official doctrine of the majority of the communist movement around the world" does not seem to be supported by given ref but that it has been a driving force in international relations during most of the 20th century due the the Cold War. It is true that scholars disagree that the Khmer Rogue were communists, but you can not use Furr as source for that. Davide King (talk) 07:49, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

As an example, this ("As a theoretical instrument of analysis of reality, it is a guide for action, which is constantly renewed to respond to new phenomena, situations, processes and developing trends. Marxism-Leninism is a conception of the world that includes the dialectical method as a method of analysis. It is a scientific system of philosophical, economic and socio-political ideas that constitute the conception of the working class, science about the knowledge of the world, about the laws of development of nature, society and human thought, but it is mainly the science of the struggle and revolutionary transformation of the working class and all workers for the revolutionary overcoming of capitalism and the building of the new society, a socialist society, and communism") is their POV but it is not written in an encyclopedic way and is cited to "Marxism". Soviet Encyclopedic Dictionary. p. 00. Karl Marx e o nosso tempo, Álvaro Cunhal em pcb.org.br Marxismo-leninismo - Uma teoria para o nosso tempo, João Frazão. Em omilitante.pcp.pt O Materialismo Dialético e Histórico, Fundamento Teórico do Comunismo, V. P. Tchertkov em marxists.org Partido com Paredes de Vidro, Álvaro Cunhal in Marxists.org. Archived in WayBack Machine pg. 23 Dialectical and Historical Materialism by J. V. Stalin in marxists.org. Archived in Wayback Machine. We need independent, secondary sources; and yes, I would much rather use sources like Fitzpatrick, Getty or Ellman rather than Service or Pipes, who is an academic but whose work about communism represents more of popular literature than scholarly analysis. Davide King (talk) 07:56, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Davide King, seems fair. I'll try to find more academic sources to back some of those things up. I agree the first phrase is not worded in the best way, I'll see what I can do. It's hard to find more academic sources because the article are not free. BunnyyHop (talk) 15:14, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Bunnyhoop, no consensus for őart of your changes, as others also expressed.(KIENGIR (talk) 02:43, 23 November 2020 (UTC))

What do you mean? I have found sources for what Davide King has pointed out and changed phrases which could be seen as POV.KIENGIR, where is your objection exactly? As it's stated in the guidelines, when you revert widespread edits you must supply an explanation, otherwise it's considered misuse of the tool. BunnyyHop (talk) 03:01, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

You have made a quite massive amount of editing and rewritings, which had as well technical problems, despite both of us just reverted a few of them (not "widespread edits" as you claim). As well your edits tried to deminuate criticism for just a few specific instances, etc. No surpise, meanhile revising your edits, both me and Davide concerned on the same problematic changes, incidentally. So let him as well revire your arguments and gain consensus here for any related part from now on.(KIENGIR (talk) 03:12, 23 November 2020 (UTC))

Since you have not pointed anything out, there's nothing more I can do. We'll wait and see what Davide King's judgment is, and I'll keep editting from there. BunnyyHop (talk) 04:25, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I suggest you to use a sandbox, where you can experiment and gain consensus for your proposed wording. So far, I do not think your edits are encyclopedic and need stronger secondary and tertiary sources rather than primary ones. Either way, the sandbox will help you improve your edits and avoid edit warring, which may result in sanctions. Davide King (talk) 10:43, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01, no one is trying to downplay Stalinist crimes. The problem with the Mass Killings Under Communist Regimes is that it falsely implies that mass killings are an essential objective of socialism, broadly defined. Hence universal health care, free tuition and a liveable minimum wage are the first steps to mass killings in the United States. TFD (talk) 12:02, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

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