Talk:Frédéric Chopin

RfC: Chopin's nationality

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should we mention Chopin's nationality as Polish or Polish-French? A debate on this has been simmering on for sometime now.

Prior discussions

1. Nationality

2. Talk:Frédéric_Chopin/Archive_2#Nationality (second discussion)

3. Nationality (third discussion)

4. Nationality standards?

5. LEAD: Polish, French or Polish-French?

6. Nationality (one more time)

Solutions considered

As consensus has and will always change, here are some solutions which are being considered for proposal:

• Solution A - Describe Chopin as Polish in the lead
• Solution B - Describe Chopin as a Polish-French in the lead
• Solution C - Describe Chopin as Polish and French in the lead
• Solution D - Describe Chopin as Polish, French-naturalized in the lead
• Solution E - Do not describe his nationality in the lead. Discuss it in the body of the article.

Please weigh-in, indicating the solution(s) you support using the example format below. Include a brief explanation of your rationale. Or, alternatively, if you have some idea which hasn't previously been put forward, please let us know!

Example format

• Support A - He is clearly a Polish. - Example 1 (talk) 00:00, 14 November 2257 (UTC)
• Support C - He is of Polish and French Nationality - Example 2 (talk) 00:00, 14 November 2257 (UTC)
• Support E - It is too tough of an issue to deal with. Let's not mention it. - Example 3 (talk) 00:00, 14 November 2257 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions/comments/opinions in advance!

Please note that this RfC should not be construed as a vote rather than an attempt to measure consensus. As always let's keep the conversations at a civilized level and focus completely on content, not contributors or their motives.

Discussion

• Support A - The sources indicated in the lead and in past discussions say that he is clearly Polish. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:20, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support C - 3 vs 5 isn't much of a minority, and per WP:NPOV it should say that he is Polish and Polish-French. Per WP:OPENPARA it should say that he is Polish-French, but the sources have conflicting views, so per WP:RS it should mention both. 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up. See where I screwed up} 18:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support A, followed by second choice of Support D. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support A, as that is by far the most common claim made in reliable sources—see [1]. Toccata quarta (talk) 08:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support A, sources which describe him as a "Polish composer" [2] out number sources which call him "Polish-French" [3] by a factor of at least 10. No brainer, non-controversial, just a single disruptive user on a edit-war-path upsetting long standing WP:CONSENSUS.  Volunteer Marek  08:13, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

How many times do I have to refer you to WP:GHITS and WP:NPOV? It's a factor of much less than 10, because (And I've pointed this out to you repeatedly) adding words greatly decreases the number of Google search results. 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up. See where I screwed up} 14:04, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support D to indicate that he composed and achieved fame while living in France. Also, all that discussion about his nationality and how he always considered himself Polish should be moved from the first paragraph of the lead into a later paragraph. The first paragraph should be about why he is notable, it should be concerned with his music and his work. FurrySings (talk) 12:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support A - Chopin was a Pole who lived in France as an exile. I do not edit on this page but have a interest in and love classical music. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:00, 13 November 2013 (UTC)Also Paul Hindemith was a German composer and Arnold Schoenberg an Austrian even though both became American citizens. We would never refer to them as Americans--Woogie10w (talk) 19:44, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• A. Did Chopin ever consider himself French? Don't people get to say who they are anymore? Ravpapa (talk) 14:11, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Much as I disagree with some of the POV-pushing here, primary sources usually should not be used for determining nationality. Toccata quarta (talk) 14:44, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The POV you and the other members of your tag team are pushing is nationalist propaganda, the POV I am 'pushing' is neutral. Read policies before making hypocritical personal attacks. 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up. See where I screwed up} 18:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

1. I'm not Polish, nor am I aware of having Polish ancestors.
2. "You are engaging in POV-pushing" is not a personal attack; "you are a(n) [expletive]" is. Toccata quarta (talk) 18:41, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Where did I say that? 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up. See where I screwed up} 18:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Say what? You accused me of "pushing ... nationalist propaganda", and you deemed "POV-pushing"—a concept to which you have also referred—a personal attack. Toccata quarta (talk) 18:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Just because I prefer a neutral POV to your completely biased one, it doesn't mean I'm a POV pusher. And where did I say "you are a(n) [expletive]"? 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up. See where I screwed up} 18:52, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You didn't say that; after all, I never accused you of making a personal attack. Toccata quarta (talk) 19:32, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support A - mainly because I'm in agreement with Toccata quarta in regards to how reliable sources state him. Plus, I believe this column from the La Jolla Music Society is an informative read on the very topic. GRUcrule (talk) 16:10, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support A- as per Dale Tucker (1998). Frederic Chopin. Alfred Music Publishing. p. 5. ISBN 978-1-4574-0134-3. - though French should be mentioned in the article as it is now - all is fine -- Moxy (talk) 18:39, 13 November 2013 (UTC)#

It isn't mentioned, because it was removed and then the page was protected to the wrong version 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up. See where I screwed up} 19:17, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Current version says in the lead "Although Chopin's father was a Polonized Frenchman and Chopin himself was exiled in France from the age of 20 until his death, the composer always regarded himself as a Pole rather than a Frenchman" then outside the lead in the first section we say "Chopin's father, Nicolas Chopin, was a Frenchman from Lorraine who had emigrated to Poland in 1787 at the age of sixteen" - thus we can all imply hes of French heritage because of his fathers. This is how most bio confront the situation as we do here - V. K. Subramanian (2004). The Great Ones. Abhinav Publications. p. 225. ISBN 978-81-7017-421-9.. -- Moxy (talk) 19:34, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

By 'most bios' are you referring to the number of Google hits or the sources provided (which is 5 v 4)? And the article mentions that he was not French. 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up. See where I screwed up} 19:38, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

General statement - out of all the "book sources" (dont care about Google hits of non scholarly websites or news papers) I can find only one small bio that mentions both Polish-French at William J. Roberts (2004). France: A Reference Guide from the Renaissance to the Present. Infobase Publishing. p. 214. ISBN 978-0-8160-4473-3. -- Moxy (talk) 19:57, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

But did you search for Polish-French? And are you sure Encyclopedia Britannica is non-scholarly? 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up. See where I screwed up} 20:00, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

We are only here to regurgitate what the majority of sources say and in the manner they say it. We have lots of space here thus we have more then enough room to explain the situation and not just a small bio trying to jam all in a few paragraphs. We have done this in the article pretty well I think (first time here today). Even non scholarly articles like this new paper confront the situation. So from what I am reading all over they refer to his "nationally" as Polish and in the same breath say he was "ethnically" half-French. -- Moxy (talk) 20:14, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

And by 'majority' do you mean 5 vs 4? Or are you talking about 5 vs 0 because the 4 supporting the fact that he was Polish-French removed by a biased POV pusher? 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up. See where I screwed up} 20:22, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes Britannica and the book France : a reference guide from the Renaissance to the present say this - in the case of Britannica they are trying to get you to read on with a subscription....thus both are very small bios trying to say a lot in a confined space. The book Jacqueline Dineen (1998). Frederic Chopin. Lerner Publications. p. 4. ISBN 978-1-57505-248-9. does not say this in the copy I can read. - as in his "nationality" was French. As for Northern light : the Skagen painter I cant see it but why a panting book as a source? So from what I can see in the majority of source that I have found today that cover the topic in-depth say his "nationally" is Polish with a French background - as we explain in this article. I see no problem in expanding the section "Nationality" but to add this contentions point in the lead as if it was fact without explanation as we do later is not serving our readers well. -- Moxy (talk) 22:24, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Given that last point you should change it to Support E. 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up.}_{See where I screwed up.} 12:07, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support E. Came here via RFC, so not involved. I like the way NPR cut the cake. It is ok to not put the nationality of people front and center and then give full details late. Say he was Polish-Born in the lead, then have the nationality section down below really go into it. That is informative while not distracting from the guy's works and life. I know the issue is important, but I think being broad in the lead and having a good nationality section could make for a much improved article. Best of luck. AbstractIllusions (talk) 07:32, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support A. Where Encyclopaedia Britannica is concerned, Moxy has exposed the heart of the matter. On the subject of Chopin, E.B. is sloppy and perfunctory and cannot be a guide to the much more precise and comprehensive Wikipedia. Nihil novi (talk) 15:15, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Sources are not unreliable just because they oppose your view. And Wikipedia is not a reliable source, see WP:NOTRS. 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up. See where I screwed up} 16:35, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Britannica's expression, "Polish-French", is sloppy. What on earth does it mean?

Does it refer to a given individual's birthplace, ethnicity, sense of national identity, or citizenship, or to some combination of these?

Or does the expression refer to these characteristics in relation to the individual's parents?

Perhaps a mathematician could calculate for us the doubtless large number of possible combinations of characteristics that can lurk behind the vague expression, "Polish-French"? Nihil novi (talk) 10:30, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The expression "Polish" is even more vague. It could refer to all of those, plus the fact that they polish things. 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up.}_{See where I screwed up.} 12:07, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support A, or (less-preferred, because not really relevant in the lead, but acceptable) D. At the time when I was active editing WP, (and was hoping to bring this article up to GA quality) I gave a lot of thought to this issue. All reliable musical dictionaries, critics and biographers regard Chopin as Polish. And he regarded himself as Polish. There is no problem providing citations for all this. The fact that he took French nationality (which was a convenience for him) made him legally French, I suppose, but this is trivial in the context of his music, which did not draw on French sources, as I hope the maturing article will point out when it starts being edited properly once again. I don't see in Wikipedia, e.g., Winston Churchill being described as American , even though his mother was an American and he himself received honorary American citizenship. Incidentally the cluster of notes in the first two sentences of the lead section should surely be removed, according to WP:MOS. The right place to explain in cited detail about squabbles of this sort is in the text, not the lead. I also believe the second sentence of the lead belongs in the body of the article as being WP:UNDUE in this section; later in the lead in the second paragraph Chopin's residence in France is quite adequately described, and the 'after age of 20' doesn't need to be anticipated in the first paragraph. Best, --Smerus (talk) 18:03, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Agree completely with Smerus. The sentence "Although Chopin's father was a Polonized Frenchman and Chopin himself was exiled in France from the age of 20 until his death, the composer always regarded himself as a Pole rather than a Frenchman." should be removed from the lead altogether - all this polemic over his nationality is not nearly as important as his impact on piano technique and composition, as well as his importance in the emerging "star" culture surrounding great solo performers (especially pianists) - points which, in fact, are undercovered in the article itself. Ravpapa (talk) 18:15, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support A This entire controversy is absurd. Trilobitealive (talk) 02:29, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• Further my post supporting A: From Moritz Karasowski, Frederic Chopin: His Life and Letters (1906), volume II, page 368: "When [Chopin's] remains were lowered into the grave, Polish earth was scattered on the coffin. It was the same that Chopin had brought from the village of Wola nineteen years before as a memorial of his beloved fatherland, and shortly before his death had requested that if he might not rest in Polish soil his body might at least be covered with his native earth. Chopin's heart, which had beaten so warmly, and suffered so deeply for his country was, according to his desire, sent to the land whose sun had shone on his happy youth; it is preserved ad interim in the Church of the Sacred Cross at Warsaw."

Can we not let this poor piano-playing Pole (to paraphrase Paderewski) rest in peace?

I move to close this RFP. Ravpapa (talk) 13:19, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

As the sole Arthropod-American Wikipedia editor, I strongly second the motion. This whole thing is an example of what happens when you have a strongly POV minority trying to change articles. Trilobitealive (talk) 16:41, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Don't you mean the NPOV minority? Anyway, WP:RS and WP:NPOV are core content policies, which cannot be superseded by consensus. So this means nothing. 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up. See where I screwed up} 16:47, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

That's not how it works. Volunteer Marek  17:00, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes it is. Let me quote:

"...not superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up. See where I screwed up} 17:07, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Keep telling yourself that. Volunteer Marek  17:19, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Keep telling me that 2Awwsome^{Tell me where I screwed up.}_{See where I screwed up.} 12:07, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

• "Polish-born" in lead: This source uses this wording which seems to side-step the issue nicely. The French aspect shouldn't be suppressed as we do have sources (1 2) that describe him so. We might also need to mention that the nationality issue is a touchy topic in Poland (source). Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 14:45, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
• Support E, "Polish-born" in lead - Per User:AbstractIllusions,Dailycare; Always a good idea to shy away from definitively asserting that "Person X is of some given nationality" when there is even the smallest ambiguity on the matter. WP shouldn't be deciding what someone's proper nationality is. Using "Polish-born" strikes me as a nice way to reflect the fact that most sources do refer to him as Polish, while not positively asserting that he is either Polish or French. NickCT (talk) 16:06, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Dailycare and NickCT: I don't know how familiar you are with Chopin's biography, but your comments are not addressing a very important point: that Chopin was not merely Polish, he was emphatically Polish. He never identified himself as French, on the contrary, he always saw himself as an exile. His letters, his music, all his documented comments, from the day of his departure from Poland to his burial, all cry out his love and yearning for his native land. All the sources agree about this, even the two which in their leads refer to him as "Polish French". To call him anything other than Polish is not merely to distort the sources, but to do him a profound injustice. Ravpapa (talk) 17:24, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

@Ravpapa - Self identification is important. But it's not a be all and end all. And I agree, from my uninformed POV Chopin certainly does look "mostly or almost entirely Polish". That said, I think anyone who'd argue that Chopin was at least in some part French by virtue of his father and the fact that he spent half his life in France, would be making a reasonable point. Why not leave his nationality vague in the lead, but reflect the majority of sources and his own identification by calling him "Polish-born"? I don't see the injustice. It would seem we're placing emphasis on his "polishness" while simultaneously saying that his nationality was not definitively Polish. NickCT (talk) 00:42, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

By your reasoning, George Washington should be described only as "British-born", since he spent the first two-thirds of his life (1732–1776) as a British subject. Let's not muddle matters by mentioning that in the latter third of his life he thought of himself as an American!

The fact is that "–born" adjectives are so ambiguous as to be meaningless. I don't know whether one of Wikipedia's goals is meaninglessness. Nihil novi (talk) 04:58, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

How Washington should be described turns exclusively on what sources say about him, not on what editors think about him. There are sources that describe Chopin's nationality in a more nuanced way than merely "Polish", so allowing for them with "Polish-born" seems reasonable to me (and, importantly, since at least one source uses that exact language). We can expand on the subject a bit in the article body, maybe even mentioning that his nationality is a bit of a touchy subject in Poland, at least one source says that. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 19:37, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes but the sources which describe Chopin as "Polish born" rather than just "Polish" are in a small minority. So exactly by your logic, you should switch your vote. Volunteer Marek  20:10, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

@Nihil novi - re "should be described only as "British-born"," - Sort of, yeah. I'd oppose saying some like "George Washington was American." in the lead of his article. A reasonable person might dispute that unqualified assertion. NickCT (talk) 02:34, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I haven't counted sources on this page, but even I now know (having arrived via the RFC) that several sources describe his nationality in a more nuanced way than just "Polish". One source cited above describes him as Polish, but that "the situation is not simple". Saying "Polish-born" in the lead accomodates all the sources that I know, at least, and gives primacy to Polishness in line with what the majority of sources say. --Dailycare (talk) 20:24, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I make the following compromise proposal (F) for the lead, in view of comments above: "was a Romantic-era Polish composer, who spent most of his mature career in France." I believe that this statement is compatible with all recognised authorities. The detail (e.g. his father, his exile, his passport, etc.) is already covered in the text of the article. --Smerus (talk) 21:18, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 21:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Me,too Ravpapa (talk) 17:09, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support F or E. Why on Earth did it take this many kilobytes to find what seems like the most natural way to describe him? Yes, he was born in Poland and apparently considered himself Polish. Yes, he spent most of his life in France. Let's just say that instead of turning it into a civil war or contemplating dreadful constructs like Polish-French, which are anachronistic at best. Sai Weng (talk) 02:00, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

RfC Close

This RfC has been around for three days now, I'd like to ask that it be closed if it doesn't last for more than a couple of days or so. By my reading, option A seemed to garner the most support, with D coming in second, and C/E coming in last place.

• Solution A - (12 support)
  • Support: me, Piotrus, Toccata quarta, Volunteer Marek, Woogie10w, Smerus, Moxy, GRUcrule, Nihil novi, Trilobitealive, Ravpapa
  • Weak or qualified support:
• Solution B - (0 support, 0 weak support)
  • Support:
  • Weak or qualified support:
• Solution C - (1 support, 0 weak support)
  • Support: 2Awwsome
  • Weak or qualified support:
• Solution D - (0 support, 1 weak support)
  • Support:
  • Weak or qualified support: Piotrus
• Solution E - (3 support, 0 weak support)
  • Support: AbstractIllusions, Dailycare, NickCT
  • Weak or qualified support:
• Solution F - (1 support, 0 weak support)
  • Support: Smerus
  • Weak or qualified support:

Though there seems to be some off-topic arguing between a couple of users, I hope this is a clear consensus that satisfies all parties. There is no hurry, but does anyone have thoughts about this? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:45, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

The default duration of an RfC is 30 days or... if the community's response became obvious very quickly, the RfC participants can agree to end it, it can be formally closed by any uninvolved editor. -- Moxy (talk) 23:47, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I completely understand. I think we should let this run for the full 30 days this RFC was opened (on December 15.) Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:58, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia ethic

I don't understand why this article is so biased to please some foolish Polish. Instead of seeking a biased compromise, you should have checked some facts. Chopin and both of his parents were officially French. This is Chopin's french passport : https://www.gettyimages.fr/detail/photo-d%27actualit%C3%A9/the-french-passport-issued-to-polish-born-composer-photo-dactualit%C3%A9/2559193

Why couldn't Chopin be French and Polish at the same time ? Why do you erase his frenchness ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E0A:1DA:3530:188E:66BF:72:93DA (talk) 11:10, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Please see the discussion and vote below. The article is as what the consensus of editors agreed upon. - kosboot (talk) 22:00, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

If you argue that his father had been “officially French” until adulthood, fine, but only under your extremely non-bullshit non-propaganda definition of “fact” could his mother ever be French. Exprosic (talk) 11:51, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Why would i do that ? There is no debate or consensus. I disagree with the proposal. The entire article is full of bullshit and propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E0A:1DA:3530:4D25:B67A:AD3:3467 (talk) 16:39, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 October 2020

change "Rue Lafitte" to "Rue Laffitte" Exprosic (talk) 18:10, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done – Thjarkur (talk) 19:11, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Chopin’s homosexuality

There is no evidence at all for Chopins alleged affair with either Gladkowska and also none at all for an alleged engagement with Wodzinska. (See and hear the quote in the linkes publications) They moreover barely appear in his letters, which is obvious after simple searches in the online letters-edition. (https://en.chopin.nifc.pl/chopin/letters/search)

But obviously he wrote many declarations of love to various men. The most numberous, passionate, exclusive and even erotic ones to Tytus Woyciechowski. (Biographies by G. Baur, p. 536 or by A. Walker, p. 114-115) He also writes and stays in contact with him until shortly before his death in 1849. He also visited Tytus in summer 1830 for two weeks in Poturzyn, and called him his ideal (letter to Woyciechowsky from 3.10.1829, that was half a year after Tytus left Warsaw in spring 1829) It’s intersting, that in various translations of that very passage of 3.10.1829 (and also in others) we can see abvious faults: male polish pronouns turned into english or french female pronouns (translation by D. Frick (2016) p. 138 & 232ff.) . Some show lots of added female pronouns. So the question could be if some people just didn’t or don‘t want Chopin to have been homosexual?

https://www.srf.ch/kultur/musik/spaetes-outing-chopin-war-schwul-und-niemand-sollte-davon-erfahren

Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 17:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Your sources may require close examination. There have been other "correspondences" of Chopin's that turned out to be forgeries: see his "Letters to Delfina Potocka".

Nihil novi (talk) 21:23, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

English language article on the matter, could possibly be used as a source? [4] --Viennese Waltz 11:43, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Also: "Chopin's interest in men airbrushed from history, programme claims" - Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:58, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

With any luck, the relevant pages of Alan Walker's, Fryderyk Chopin: A Life and Times may be visible using this link William Avery (talk) 14:59, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

So what? SPECIFICO talk 15:01, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. It's nothing new. William Avery (talk) 15:39, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

The point is that it's not currently mentioned in the article, and needs to be. --Viennese Waltz 16:00, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

In which case the scepticism of previous biographers needs to be acknowledged. William Avery (talk) 16:04, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

According to the "Chopin" article's "Education" section,

He was also attracted to the singing student Konstancja Gładkowska. In letters to Woyciechowski, he indicated which of his works, and even which of their passages, were influenced by his fascination with her; his letter of 15 May 1830 revealed that the slow movement (Larghetto) of his Piano Concerto No. 1 (in E minor) was secretly dedicated to her – "It should be like dreaming in beautiful springtime – by moonlight."

So, Chopin was... bisexual?

Nihil novi (talk) 23:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Alan Walker writes in his Fryderyk Chopin: A Life and Times [5] (2018):

This language [of Chopin's] is fankly erotic and it is fair to ask... whether there might have been a passing homosexual affair between Tytus and Chopin. We are much inclined to doubt it... Tytus [Woyciechowski] was... a reluctant recipient of overt declarations of love, as Chopin's side of the correspondence confirms. It seems far more likely that Chopin wrote these and similar passages in an exalted frame of mind when... he... gave free rein to his adolescent fantasies....

If Chopin's "confession" to Tytus in October 1829 is to be taken at face value, the image of Konstancja [Gładkowska] could rarely have been absent from his thoughts during his six-week tour of Vienna, Prague, and Dresden made earlier in the year. By the time he had returned to Warsaw, in September 1829, with such accolades as "pianist of the front rank" bestowed on him by the Viennese press, his position had been transformed. Yet his newfound confidence did not extend to his private life and he could not summon up the courage to declare himself to Konstancja.

Nihil novi (talk) 10:17, 26 November 2020 (UTC) [Someone deleted my earlier signature.]

It was mentioned in the Guardian article cited above that "Chopin described rumours of his affairs with women as a 'cloak for hidden feelings'" in one of his letters to Tytus. It was not uncommon in that day and age for homosexual people to have relationships with women. Our understanding of "gay" as an identity can't be mapped one to one onto Chopin in the same way that we can't map it perfectly onto someone like Oscar Wilde, but that doesn't prevent us from understanding that he (and now likely Chopin) were what we would today describe as homosexual men. Whether the increasing evidence for his relationships with men are accepted wholeheartedly or not by everyone in this thread, it certainly, certainly warrants being covered on his Wikipedia article. Sandhals (talk) 02:03, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

May I point out that you're all engaging in original research and WP:NOR. Unless you find a reliable source (considering the voluminous amount of serious musicological research available, a newspaper article is not a reliable source ), you can't state it in the article. - kosboot (talk) 02:16, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Not true, see WP:NEWSORG. --Viennese Waltz 07:24, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

There's wackers here who wouldn't admit Chopin was gay even if he shoved his cock in their faces. There's no arguing with people who are committed to dissembling. Double standards and sickening hypocrisy! Here's a draft of a paragraph of how to begin to correct the article:

"While the sexuality of Chopin had long been a matter of debate, in 2020 it came to global attention when a Swiss radio broadcast claimed Chopin's love life had been deliberately distorted and bowdlerised. [6], It was alleged: "The emotional and erotic relationship with Woyciechowski, which is central to Chopin, has so far been twisted beyond recognition or marginalized - even in otherwise reliable reference works."[7] Letters to Woyciechowski are certainly explicit. In one, Chopin writes to him: “You don’t like being kissed, Please allow me to do so today. You have to pay for the dirty dream I had about you last night.” Chopin also addresses him as: “My dearest life” and ends another with: “Give me a kiss, dearest lover.”[8] An even more explicit letter to Woyciechowski states: "I'm going to wash myself, don't kiss me now, because I haven't washed myself yet - you? Even if I rubbed Byzantine oils on myself, you wouldn't kiss me if I didn't magnetically force you to do it. There is some force in nature. Today you will dream that you kiss me."[9] Other letters written by Chopin to Julian Fontana suggest he may have used toilets for soliciting.[10] The issue was seen to be highly sensitive due to Chopin's status as a national icon in Poland, and its suppression of gay rights. According to Moritz Weber, an arts journalist at the Swiss radio station SRF: “Chopin’s love for men, attested in writing, would constitute a public relations crisis for the current [Polish] government, which would have to recognise it officially."[11]

Until it's properly revised, the Wikipedia article will remain a fetid sewer of the most rank lies. 2001:8003:5309:BA00:E07E:35C7:5196:38E8 (talk) 10:32, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

On 3 October 1829 Chopin wrote Tytus Woyciechowski:

... I already, perhaps unfortunately, have my ideal, which I faithfully serve, without having spoken with it for half a year – which I dream of, in whose memory arose the adagio of my concerto, and which this morning inspired this little waltz of mine which I am sending you.

This fragment of Chopin's letter immediately follows his mention of another attractive young lady, who was unable to replace Konstancja Gładkowska in his affections.

The second paragraph cited above from Alan Walker's 2018 biography of Chopin makes it quite clear that Chopin, in speaking of his "ideal", is referring to Konstancja Gładkowska.

Nihil novi (talk) 10:04, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

It's now believed that this was mistranslated - Chopin wrote the word "ideal" in the masculine form, as if referring to Tytus Woyciechowski. It was inaccurately translated as if he were referring to a woman - it's certainly not clear that he was referring to Konstancja Gładkowska. I think it is of great importance that Chopin's relationships with men be included on this page. The purpose of Wikipedia is to inform, and it would be inappropriate to miss out the fact that Chopin had relationships with, or a sexual interest in, other men. If the dubious information regarding some of his relationships with women has been accepted as fact in the article, why isn't the evidence of his homosexuality being accepted? Glissando1234567890 (talk) 15:54, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Again I repeat: with a figure such as Chopin who has numerous biographies in multiple languages, and over which there has been continuous musicological research from numerous people all over the world, you are going to need better citations than to a newspaper which, by its nature, seeks to create "news" by taking a deliberately provocative view of the world. Provide some citations to responsible musicologists and then I'll be more accepting of your efforts. - kosboot (talk) 17:07, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@Kosboot: "A newspaper which, by its nature, seeks to create "news" by taking a deliberately provocative view of the world" - impartiality, please! Anyway, the newspaper article is irrelevant, when the letter (from the Chopin Institute, as already cited on this page) shows that Chopin used the masculine form of "ideal", and wrote the words "I love you madly" to Woyciechowski. Surely the page should at least mention that "some sources/historians" believe that Chopin had homosexual desires? Also, and I'm trying to be objective, but how can you take Alan Walker's argument seriously? It seems that Walker is not keen on the idea that Chopin was gay, describing the "uncomfortably sensual" language in his letters, which he blames on "psychological confusion" and transference. Glissando1234567890 (talk) 18:05, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Moritz Weber's article is here (in German) : https://www.srf.ch/kultur/musik/spaetes-outing-chopin-war-schwul-und-niemand-sollte-davon-erfahren?wt_mc_o=srf.share.app.srf-app.unknown He gives a list of the men Chopin loved, and cites Aleksander Laskowski, of the Warsaw Chopin Institute saying that "We actually have nothing on K. Gładkowska. With Wodzińska we have nothing."

So who are these historians? You absolutely can not read documents written 200 years ago and assume that the words have the same meaning today. Read some romantic literature ca. 1800-1850: Lots of men professed love for fellow men, but it does not mean or imply they were homoesexual. The nature of romanticism is of revealing one's inner emotions, but that often means highly exaggerated prose. Don't forget WP:SYN. - kosboot (talk) 20:20, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

When Chopin uses the Polish word "ideał" (a masculine-gender noun) in his letter to Tytus Woyciechowski of 3 October 1829, it is perfectly clear from context that he is using the word in the sense given by both The Kościuszko Foundation Dictionary, volume II: Polish-English, 1962, p. 149. amd Jan Stanisławski's The Great Polish-English Dictionary, 1970, p. 322, of "dream boy" or "dream girl". Stanisławski gives the additional wording, "boy of one's' dreams" or "girl of one's dreams".

Thus the argument that Chopin's word "ideał" has been misinterpreted is specious. In the 3 October 1829 letter, his "ideał" ("girl of his dreams") was clearly Konstancja Gładkowska – not Tytus Woyciechowski!

Nihil novi (talk) 22:11, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

You haven't proved anything. Chopin clearly addressed TW in a romantic way - as I've said, read the letters already cited. Yes, language was different then, but he didn't address everybody in this passionate way. (He certainly didn't call others "my dearest life", an address he never used for the women he supposedly yearned for.) And you are blind to the double standards here - when referring to men, his language is dismissed as romantic idiosyncrasy; when referring to women, it's hard evidence of emotion. I'm not saying that the page should state "Chopin was absolutely homosexual", but it should, at the very least, mention the reasonable speculation that arises from the "ambiguities" in his language. Glissando1234567890 (talk) 00:04, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not trying to prove anything. You say: it should, at the very least, mention the reasonable speculation that arises from the "ambiguities" in his language. Please mention a reliable musicological source (preferably more than one) that mentions the reasonable speculation and I'll consider that for inclusion. - kosboot (talk) 03:23, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

It's not anyone's job here Kasboot to convince you. You're not the sole Hall Monitor. If a number of leading respectable global newspapers print a story, including The Times and The Guardian (Classic FM also believes the story is important enough to print an article [12]), even whether you believe that story is accurate or not, by Wikipedia rules, these become allowable citations for the inclusion of summarising text. Yes, for editorial balance, equally cited opposing opinion can naturally be included, but to seek to disallow it simply because you personally disagree with it, is unacceptable. There is no need to cite musicologists you personally approve of. (Demanding impossible-to-deliver citations by particular experts is a well-worn blocking tactic by stubborn editors.) Wikipedia is a democracy, not a dictatorship. For that, you can create your own blog. 2001:8003:5309:BA00:E07E:35C7:5196:38E8 (talk) 05:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

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