Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment

Arbitration Committee proceedings

• recent changes
• purge this page
• view or discuss this template

Case requests

Request name	Motions	Initiated	Votes
Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area		6 November 2024	0/0/0
Mistreated and Inhumanity blocking to Royiswariii		8 November 2024	0/1/0

[edit]

Open cases

Case name	Links	Evidence due	Prop. Dec. due
Backlash to diversity and inclusion	(t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t)	10 Oct 2024	24 Oct 2024

[edit]

Recently closed cases (Past cases)

No cases have recently been closed (view all closed cases).

Clarification and Amendment requests

Request name	Motions	Case	Posted
Clarification request: GamerGate	none	(orig. case)	10 March 2015

Arbitrator motions

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Requests for clarification and amendment

Use this page to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

• Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
• Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

Submitting a request: (you must use this format!)

1. Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
   • Click here to file a request for clarification of an arbitration decision or procedure.
   • Click here to file a request for amendment of an arbitration decision or procedure (including an arbitration enforcement action issued by an administrator, such as a contentious topics restriction).
2. Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
3. If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use {{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}} to do this.
4. Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.

Please do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive.

Guidance on participation and word limits

Unlike many venues on Wikipedia, ArbCom imposes word limits. Please observe the below notes on complying with word limits.

• Motivation. Word limits are imposed to promote clarity and focus on the issues at hand and to ensure that arbitrators are able to fully take in submissions. Arbitrators must read a large volume of information across many matters in the course of their service on the Committee, so submissions that exceed word limits may be disregarded. For the sake of fairness and to discourage gamesmanship (i.e., to disincentivize "asking forgiveness rather than permission"), word limits are actively enforced.
• In general. Most submissions to the Arbitration Committee (including statements in arbitration case requests and ARCAs and evidence submissions in arbitration cases) are limited to 500 words, plus 50 diffs. During the evidence phase of an accepted case, named parties are granted an automatic extension to 1000 words plus 100 diffs.
• Sectioned discussion. To facilitate review by arbitrators, you should edit only in your own section. Address your submission to arbitrators, not to other participants. If you wish to rebut, clarify, or otherwise refer to another submission for the benefit of arbitrators, you may do so within your own section. (More information.)
• Requesting an extension. You may request a word limit extension in your submission itself (using the {{@ArbComClerks}} template) or by emailing clerks-llists.wikimedia.org. In your request, you should briefly (in 1-2 sentences) include (a) why you need additional words and (b) a broad outline of what you hope to discuss in your extended submission. The Committee endeavors to act upon extension requests promptly and aims to offer flexibility where warranted.
  • Members of the Committee may also grant extensions when they ask direct questions to facilitate answers to those questions.
• Refactoring statements. You should write carefully and concisely from the start. It is impermissible to rewrite a statement to shorten it after a significant amount of time has passed or after anyone has responded to it (see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines § Editing own comments), so it is often advisable to submit a brief initial statement to leave room to respond to other users if the need arises.
• Sign submissions. In order for arbitrators and other participants to understand the order of submissions, sign your submission and each addition (using ~~~~).
• Word limit violations. Submissions that exceed the word limit will generally be "hatted" (collapsed), and arbitrators may opt not to consider them.
• Counting words. Words are counted on the rendered text (not wikitext) of the statement (i.e., the number of words that you would see by copy-pasting the page section containing your statement into a text editor or word count tool). This internal gadget may also be helpful.
• Sanctions. Please note that members and clerks of the Committee may impose appropriate sanctions when necessary to promote the effective functioning of the arbitration process.

General guidance

• Arbitrators and clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment.
• Requests from blocked or banned users should be made by e-mail directly to the Arbitration Committee.
• Only arbitrators and clerks may remove requests from this page. Do not remove a request or any statements or comments unless you are in either of these groups.
• Archived clarification and amendment requests are logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Clarification and Amendment requests. Numerous legacy and current shortcuts can be used to more quickly reach this page:

Clarification request: GamerGate

Initiated by MarkBernstein at 16:11, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

GamerGate arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• MarkBernstein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by MarkBernstein

On Friday, March 6, Think Progress published an article by Lauren C. Williams on The ‘Five Horsemen’ Of Wikipedia Paid The Price For Getting Between Trolls And Their Victims. Two days later, I was topic-banned by @Dreadstar: under the standard AE sanctions, over his concerns regarding this discussion [1] of that article at the Gamergate talk page.

I had requested clarification by email about the intended scope of the standard topic ban. Receiving no pertinent response, I asked on my talk page.

@Dreadstar: Is it your intent that this topic ban include pages relating to Campus Rape, which might conceivably be construed to be a controversy and arguably is related to gender? One might say that opposition to rape is uncontroversial, but doubtless campus rape has supporters, too, or controversy of some sort. (Then again, one might assume that commenting on other editors involved commenting on actual editors!) I ask only to advise an organization seeking my advice on promoting wider participation by women in the areas of its expertise in the wake of recent press coverage of Wikipedia.

This evoked a vituperative response by email, which I believe to have been sent to you as well, and which is now being discussed at AN/I, which I believe is the appropriate forum. I do not wish to enquire further into that here.

I do not believe the topic ban was proper, just, or expedient. I do not wish to enquire further into that in this place and at this time, though of course you may discuss whatever pleases you.

The underlying question remains: an activist had contacted me that very day, seeking advice for a Wikipedia initiative among her membership and concerned -- not unreasonably -- over the sort of repercussions that were detailed in Think Progress and previously in a number of other newspapers and magazines [2].

Is it your intent that the standard Gamergate topic ban include pages relating to Campus Rape, which might conceivably be construed to be a controversy and arguably is related to gender?

---

Administrator Masem makes an interesting proposal that the committee find that Campus Rape does not fall under the standard sanctions in general, but it does for me. DHeyward and Thargor Orlando apparently share this fascinating view. This is, of course, a bill of attainder, and is incompatible with the notion of the rule of law.

My question addresses your intent in writing the decision you wrote.

It's not clear to me that the assistance of third parties, involved or otherwise, is helpful for you to determine what you meant to say a scant six weeks ago. Nothing else is at issue here -- although now that the question has been raised so forcefully below, by such august Wikipedians, it might be useful to state whether Wikipedia policy applies alike to all, or whether it can be changed so flexibly to afflict our foes and benefit our pals.

---

Followup: If the sentiment of the committee holds that Campus Rape is a gender-related dispute under the Gamergate decisions, should the usual sanctions warning appear on its talk page? Should it be added to other such pages? If that addition is disputed and proves controversial, should that question be brought to AN/I or RFC or AE or here?

Similarly, for biographies of persons involved in gender-related disputes, should should the usual sanctions warning be added to those talk pages? For example, a case at AE today hinges on whether the biography of comedian Lena Dunham falls under Gamergate or not.

I understand from the committee's comments that these matters seem self-evident to some of you . From the perspective of a more academic setting, they seem less clear, and in any case clarity is good. I apologize for the trouble, but it may save vexatious misunderstanding. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:06, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Beauxlieux

I’m the editor who asked for MarkBernstein’s perspective on editing the Campus Rape page after reading about the Wikipedia GamerGate debacle. So let me weigh in but I also ask you to be kind: I am new here. I don’t know all the protocols, lingo, and history, and it is a bit intimidating. I'm not even sure where to put this comment so I apologize if I'm putting it in the wrong place. I had hoped, perhaps naively, to at least begin editing the Campus Rape page in obscurity. I’m a bit horrified that it has now become inextricably linked to GamerGate in Wikipedia. The Campus Rape page and sexual assault coverage in general need a lot of help. Many prominent researchers and organizations do not have pages, and coverage is skewed. I would love for some of the experienced editors in this discussion to help.

I loudly echo In the case of Campus Rape, I think the letter, if not the spirit, of the sanction is unclear: Campus Rape is not a “gender-related dispute or controversy.” It is gender-related. That is clear. But, Campus Rape is not, in and of itself, a dispute or controversy. Rape is rape. Campus Rape is campus rape. There are, however, myriad disputes and controversies within the topic of Campus Rape. So, the ban might have have been better described as covering “any gender-related topic.” Such a ban would concede that gender-related topics will, most likely, end up having disputes and controversies, which given the gender imbalance issues that Wikipedia is confronting, seems, unfortunately, a fair assumption.

There's a lot of time and energy being spent debating the boundaries of the sanction. But, there’s a bigger issue here. Do sanctions work? I don’t think so. In the IdeaLab I suggested an alternative resolution to sanctions: apology. I would welcome your feedback on it. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Require_Apologies Beauxlieux (talk) 17:57, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you @Rhoark: for your offer to help. To clarify for @Cailil: and @Euryalus: -- I understand that I can edit. When I said that Campus Rape and GamerGate are now linked in Wikipedia, I just meant that for search, history, etc, this page now exists. I meant nothing more than that. Here's the chronology of events. After reading about GamerGate, I contacted @MarkBernstein: for his perspective. He generously offered to put Campus Rape on his watch list. Then, he got banned and asked for clarification. Why/how are @Squiggleslash:'s comments redacted? I thought they were really useful. Beauxlieux (talk) 21:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I am tempted to undo the redacting of @Squiggleslash:'s comments, but since they did it themselves, I don't think that would be appropriate. I will respect their wishes. The point that they and I were making (and that they made better than I at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FClarification_and_Amendment&diff=650931140&oldid=650930666 ) is that if arbcon or whoever's responsible thinks that campus rape should be included in the ban, then the better wording would be "gender-related topic." That wording is clearer and avoids the debate in which we unfortunately now find ourselves. Can the arbitrators, or whoever it is that is responsible, change the wording of the ban? I do think @MarkBernstein: had a legitimate point that the ban is unclear. While there is a way, as some have argued, that campus rape has become, unfortunately, controversial, there is also, and many survivors would fall into this camp, an understanding that campus rape is not at all controversial and that it is delegitimizing to survivors' experience to call campus rape "controversial." Both interpretations have been articulated in this debate already so I'm not going to repeat them. If wikipedia wants to be welcoming to women, then acknowledging the unfortunate reality of many women that rape is rape would be better than debating whether that reality is controversial or not. So, rather than continue the debate, why not sidestep it? The easy solution -- the solution with integrity -- is to change the wording of the ban. I would hope that whoever can make that happen, does. And, thank you in advance for doing it. Beauxlieux (talk) 21:47, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Bosstopher

This isn't actually related to what Mark's said, but it's such a minor and uncontroversial issue that I don't want to create a separate RCA for it. Apologies to Mark for partially hijacking his ARCA. ArmyLine's topic ban (despite what's incorrectly been written on the GG General sanctions page, was actually given under Arbcom's BLP discretionary sanctions. This means FoF13 is factually innaccurate, as is remedy 12. Could these be ammended to note that ArmyLine was banned under BLP discretionary sanctions, as opposed to GG general sanctions? Bosstopher (talk) 16:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by TheRedPenOfDoom

Given the overly broad topic area and the directive that it be "broadly construed", we were obviously going to be back here. This time around, I would hope that the ArbCom members carefully consider the actual ramifications of whether their actions are going to minimize disruption in the long term or will provide a blueprint for how outside canvassing can be used to disrupt Wikipedia to drive editors away. I hope that any support that comes their way in this dark hour will help them come up with a decision that is actually likely going to do the former while maintaining the basic principles of creating an encyclopedia that everyone, including women, can edit without fear of arbitrary sanctions.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:53, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Really @Courcelles:? that seems to lead down the path that @Guerillero: assured @Risker: wouldnt happen. [3] -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:41, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

But then again, we have already learned how much value we can put into what the ArbCom says on a PD talk page -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:45, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

So the NFL [4] /] [5] and the US Marines [6] [7] the US Congress [8] [9] Saudi Arabia and Sweden [10] are obviously covered as well, since they have well documented controversies involving gender? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:11, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

For "topic bans" it may or may not be as clear cut as people seem to think, but per @Courcelles: "If something is covered by the DS, it is covered for all editors equally, there can be no "this set of topics for editor X, and this set for everyone else"." so, as soon as anyone mentions "the NFL cover up of wife beating by players" the DS tag goes on the NFL talk page and people get their alerts? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:04, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

It seems to me that this is continuing to arm semi organized trolls to harass anyone working in feminist space. merely open up your throw away sock troll drawer and begin harassing editors until they snap and one gg topic ban later one less person able to work on any vaguely femist issue. Nice job! Gamergate thanks you again. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:03, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Thargor Orlando

Not to speak for Dreadstar or the Arbs, but the topic ban, as written at MarkBernstein's talk page, is in part for "any gender-related dispute or controversy." This is an incredibly controversial topic anyway, and Mark's own intentions in this clarification is to drag the drama he continually creates within the Gamergate space into the campus rape disputes. The goal of the topic ban is to keep him away from inflaming these topics, not to try and drive him to other ones. I hope the arbs and admins here clarify that this article and his involvement would fall under the relevant sanctions, and perhaps extend this topic ban toward MarkBernstein indefinitely as it should have been back at the original ruling, as he has continually shown himself unable to collaborate constructively in the space due to his personal feelings on the relevant topics of Gamergate, feminism, and Wikipedia's governance. The continued allowance of MarkBernstein to disrupt the proceedings at the relevant articles is a problem that is in need of an overdue solution.

Also, this continued spamming of his blog posts and the ThinkProgress blog post is becoming exhausting and self-promotional, and is arguably becoming an issue of a conflict of interests in and of themselves. Since we're here, it is worth a mention. We wouldn't tolerate it from anyone else.

Statement by Strongjam

Clarification on the exact scope of the GG topic ban is needed. This isn't the first time this has been brought up, previously in the Spudt3r case this came up. Personally I feel the wording is too broad, but I appreciate that might of been intentional. — Strongjam (talk) 17:12, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof

Thargor Orlando's statement appears to be yet another attempt to silence dissent and sweep this issue under the rug. It is hardly "spamming" to suggest that a significant media article be included in the In the Media section. The fact that the article is significantly critical of Wikipedia's processes and response to this issue derives the inevitable inference that Thargor's decision to engage in an edit war to remove it from the In the Media section is intended to cover up inconvenient truths. (I believe the usual term for that is Streisand effect.) While leveling accusations of a "conflict of interest," Thargor interestingly fails to note his own conflict of interest here, in that the article is critical of the position he has relentlessly pushed on-wiki. What he calls "drama" is no more and no less than a thoroughly-justified belief that the encyclopedia's own processes failed those who stood up to defend the project's basic principles from vicious, organized abuse. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:18, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom: There is a quite simple solution to these issues, and that is to acknowledge that you have made a mistake in imposing broad and indefinite topic bans on users who did nothing more than defend living people from slander. As the peak of Gamergate-related activities recedes further into the past, the reliably-sourced historical narrative about what it was, what drove it and what it intended is only solidifying, and the historical narrative of how Wikipedia responded can still be changed for the better. I challenge you to examine how you might turn about the public perception that your actions constitute a collective capitulation to an anonymous hate campaign. Injustice has been done to myself and others, and silencing those who would speak out against such injustice only compounds the problem. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:20, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by ForbiddenRocky

"Broadly construed" really needs to be explained better for this topic. The categories listed for Gamergate controversy currently : Category:2014 controversies, Category:2014 in video gaming, Category:Conflict of interest, Category:Conspiracy theories, Category:Criticism of journalism, Category:Cyberbullying, Category:Women and video games, Category:Hashtags, Category:Internet activism, Category:Internet trolling, Category:Internet vigilantism, Category:Journalism ethics, Category:Video game controversies, Category:Video game journalism, Category:Sexual harassment, Category:Misogyny, Category:2015 in video gaming, Category:2015 controversies Does a Gamergate controversy topic ban include articles sharing these categories? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 18:53, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

@Courcelles: So, a GGC topic ban does ban people from most feminist topics? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 01:05, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

From what I'm reading, if a topic becomes controversial, the topic ban will then also apply? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 18:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Masem

I would argue that Campus Rape would not fall under the GG general sanctions as IDed by ArbCom, for any other editor. But I will argue that in the specific case of Mark, who in the past has been quick to label editors as "rape apologists" tied to the GG situation ([11], [12] that this clearly shows a strong COI in the area, and that in this specific case for Mark should be an area to avoid, if even voluntarily. --MASEM (t) 19:54, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

@Bishonen: The problem with " I hereby propose they be amended to support the efforts of editors who defend living people from slander, instead of thwarting and punishing these editors." is that from the GG arbcom case, there's a difference from enforcing BLP which is meant to prevent WP from introducing claims that are harmful to living person, and actively defending living persons to a point of taking a battleground attitude to anyone with a slightly contrary view, which several editors were doing during GG. We are not here to right wrongs, including when living persons are being negatively attacked off-site, as an an amoral work, we can't let that attitude that we have to defend them on WP override expected civility and consensus building. BLP is strong enough as it is (exempt from 3RR, strict admin actions for severe violations, etc.) that "defending" persons under BLP should not be done on WP. --MASEM (t) 01:20, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

@DD2K: "if there were an organized group tying certain Bronys to pedophilia, and said brony people had Wikipedia articles that were being attacked with off-site organization, you would feel much differently." absolutely not. In fact, there are articles that negatively call members of the brony fandom as creepy and approaching that, and those are in our article, but that's because they come from reliable sources and thus appropriate opinions to include to achieve neutrality. I know one can delve into far-less reliable sources and find more accusations, but just as we won't include accusations against BLP from weak RS for GG, we won't do that here, either.
The point of my statement is that fundamental civility and consensus-building policy cannot be overriden in the name of "protecting" someone or any other agenda, which is why ArbCom set up those topic bans (that worked on people pushing agendas from both sides) and the general sanction. BLP is not a shield or a bulldozer; it's a admin tool to prevent WP from introducing slanderous material where unfounded, and it works just fine as long with the strength and weight it had. --MASEM (t) 03:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

No, I know exactly what you are pointing at , and you're missing the point about the whole reason there was a GG case. We have tools at hand to deal with outside campaigns that are trying to introduce slanderous content even if that's being coordinated from off-site and thus a constant stream of newcomers saying "we have to include this fact about X". That was being handled just fine at the GG page once community based sanctions were put into place to deal with SPA accounts. However, there were other new editors that had suggestions for the articles that would not have gone against policy, but simply would require consensus building. There were editors like myself that do not align with the GG side but saw possible problems with the article within policy that needed discussion. Those concerns were being ignored, refused proper discussion, and otherwise washed away within the same breath as with BLP concerns by those editors that were sanctioned, treating these discussions as equivalent to defending BLP and defending the specific people that were the target of GG. There is no excuse for that. That is not consensus building or civil. There was page ownership and battleground mentalities that went far beyond the simple requirements of activity removing and avoiding clearly BLP violations, which is what ArbCom identified in their statements. It's fine if you have a strong drive to protect a living person or similar topic from outright libel/slander on WP and you do that without overzealousness, but you can't let that drive override basic operating principles of an open wiki. This is where COI comes into place: "Any editor who gives priority to outside interests may be subject to a conflict of interest." --MASEM (t) 13:51, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (unrelated) coldacid

From the case remedies:[13]

(i) The community Gamergate general sanctions are hereby rescinded and are replaced by standard discretionary sanctions, which are authorized for all edits about, and all pages related to, (a) GamerGate, (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b), all broadly construed.

Campus rape is a touchy subject in gender issues and civil issues groups, and because of the spectrum of opinions and how vehemently holders of those opinions can be when they are challenged on them, I think it's safe to say that it would fall under the (i)(b) subclause of the Discretionary sanctions remedy. Whether or not the GG discretionary sanctions should include pages on the subject of campus rape is another issue altogether.

Depending on the size and/or membership of the set of editors both active on pages regarding campus rape and those regarding GamerGate, it may or may not be worthwhile for the arbs to consider making an exception to the GG DS. Honestly I'm not interested in making that determination, nor suggestions towards it, but looking into that may be the way this request should go, if the arbs decide to take any action. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 19:56, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

@ForbiddenRocky: I'd argue that yes, GG topic bans do include feminist topics, and I'd even posit that (i)(b) and (i)(c) exist to prevent the GamerGate battleground from spilling out into those topic areas. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 01:54, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

@Masem: I'd love to know why you think that campus rape as a topic wouldn't fall under the sanctions. I agree that this is definitely an area that MarkBernstein should avoid, but unless I've been misreading something, somewhere, it seems pretty clear that campus rape would be covered under the areas included in the GG topic bans. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 01:54, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

@Squiggleslash: A topic that is prone to raising controversies is by virtue of the frequency of those controversies, controversial itself. As I already mentioned in my reply to ForbiddenRocky, it seems obvious that topics such as campus rape were intentionally scoped into the discretionary sanctions clause for the GG case to avoid the behaviour from the GamerGate controversy article spilling out further into articles covering gender-related issues. I didn't participate in the GG case, but I did observe it; from those observations I drew the conclusion that the DS scope was intended to keep sanctioned editors from disrupting anything gender issues related.

By the way, a look at your recent contributions, and especially this notice raises the question of whether or not you're back to actually contribute to Wikipedia. I hope the former, but that notice certainly implies the latter. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 15:11, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

@Squiggleslash: I'd actually argue that bringing the topic of murder into this is false equivalence. People don't debate whether or not there's a murder phenomenon, even if particular accusations can be considered controversial. On the other hand, there are groups that argue that campus rape is a large, widespread phenomenon and others who argue that isolated incidents of rape are being tacked together as one big issue. The subject itself is controversial because people are debating the actual meaning and/or the existence of campus rape as an issue or phenomenon in the first place.

By the way it's not those "first two words" that has me considering you as WP:NOTHERE. It's the rest of your statement that has me raising this flag, since it implies that you may only be here (or logged in) to make points about "sexist extremists". Perhaps if you hadn't phrased your notice in such a way that assumes bad faith, I wouldn't have seen it as an issue of note wrt your participation in this ARCA request and other edits you've made logged in since December. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 15:54, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

@Squiggleslash: Perhaps your language skills aren't up to snuff; perhaps mine aren't, either. That said, regardless of the intent of the notice you put on your user page, it certainly can be misinterpreted in a manner that follows the tack of my responses to you, and let's leave it at that. As for the murder vs campus rape comparison, Thryduulf has already said what I would have reiterated otherwise in his response to you; also please note the comment by Dougweller. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 17:52, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

@Beauxlieux: Squiggleslash redacted their own comments, as (based on the change) they felt that their opinion was being misinterpreted. Squiggleslash's comments still remain in the history of the page, however, even if not visible in the ongoing ARCA request. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 23:04, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by DHeyward

MArkBernstein's topic ban was for continuing to comment on contributors and not content. This was noted by two admins on his talk page and has been noted elsewhere. Notwithstanding his strawman argument about campus rape, of which I can find no substantial contribution by MarkBernstein, his topic ban has nothing to do with it. This is a canard put forth only to muddy the waters. MarkBernstein doesn't appear to be here to build the encyclopedia. --DHeyward (talk) 20:34, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• There is a place that should be clarified as it was noted by Arbitrators that this is a topic ban and not an article ban. However, the wording of the sanction (Any editor subject to a topic-ban in this decision is indefinitely prohibited from making any edit about, and from editing any page relating to, (a) Gamergate, (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b), all broadly construed.) is that once gender-related dispute or controversy has been found, the entire page is off-limits. From the comments from DougWeller and others, it doesn't appear it was the committee's intent to make entire pages off-limits if only sections of that page related to the controversy. It appears that not everyone is interpreting that the same way and is the source of angst for editors that are under topic bans but feel they cannot edit any page where there might be a controversial section. I don't think there is any doubt the "controversial section" is off-limits. Bishonen, NorthBySouthBaranof seem to articulate this concern that a large portion of pages about women are now off-limits. 'In the narrow case of a "Campus rape" article, it would likely be totally off limits. In the context of a section in a BLP where a person was raped on campus, only that section would be off-limits, not the entire page.' If that's the intent of the committee, it's not clear in the wording of the sanction. --DHeyward (talk) 07:15, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by NE Ent

Since Campus rape references both "attitudes towards women" and Christian Hoff Sommers / gender feminism logically it would fall under the topic ban. NE Ent 23:22, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Beauxlieux's query

Answered on their talk [14] NE Ent 00:06, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Rich Farmbrough

I am very concerned that we should not waste the talents of someone like MarkBernstein. While he apparently has trouble disengaging from personalities, or at least understanding how others might perceive what he writes, when working in areas about which he feels strongly, he has a wealth of expertise in the statistical field which can be very productive on Wikipedia.

I don't see Campus rape as being the pacific topic which MarkBernstein hopes. There are fraught conversations about double jeopardy, the role of campus police, notable hoaxes, alleged rapists being "punished" by having to write an essay, how ill-suited campus committees are to understand even the mechanics ("I had to draw a diagram"), whether those who sue universities for wrongful punishment are "entitled", and on, and on.

If this is covered by the sanction under which MarkBernstein finds himself, it is not an area where I would imagine there is any guarantee that the conflict would not recur, especially so soon after recent issues, so a special dispensation would probably be unwise.

I would suggest that other areas such a medicine, climatology and pseudo-science might well benefit from MarkBernstein's statistical expertise.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC).

Statement by Cailil

I'm glad this kind of request has come to ARCA - there was a case recently at AE where admins expressed uncertainty as to whether the WP:ARBGG ruling applies to issues that, to my mind, fall within the definition of gender related controversies (in that instance it was the Men's rights movement, a controversial gender politics movement). I said it AE then and I'll say it here my reading of the WP:ARBGG ruling is that

...any gender controversy is covered - so controversial backlashes against Feminism, the USA bills/laws VWA & ERA, and other topics like Same sex marriage, as well as any future issues like the Chelsea Manning conflict etc etc are already preemptively covered. It is as I understand it a preventative measure so that nothing ever gets to the GG level of disruption on WP again. The Men's rights issue is highly controversial a) in RL and b) for the Men's rights online community's reaction to wikipedia's coverage (exactly like GG).

I (and frankly the reliable sources out there) see issues like campus rape (and a whole panoply of other gender issues that are given high profile in the media due to gender politics around them) fall into the category of gender related controversy.
Furthermore Thryduulf's contribution to that AE case seems to me to have muddied waters here[15]. Issues like Campus Rape or Men's rights or feminism or Women's studies are always already about gender, and any controversy about them or if they are a controversy, puts them firmly into the range of the ARBGG AC/DS. If I'm wrong about this I'd welcome correction by Arbs because as it stands the ARBGG ruling seems very clear to me--Cailil ^talk 09:59, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Just further I understand where TRPOD is coming from and it would be my reading that topics like the NFL etc are not covered in total but just like any topic ban - sub issues relating to gender are. However my point above is that isssues that are ONLY about gender politics will always be covered if controversial, and there's no two ways about that under the current wording--Cailil ^talk 11:54, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Beauxlieux (talk · contribs) - It seems to me that you've been misinformed by Mark. Campus rape or other gender conflicts are not "inextricibly linked to Gamer Gate". What's happen on wikipedia in the past 3 years is that ArbCom have (finaly) started to deal with protracted conflicts on gender related controversies (Chealsea Manning being one, Abortion being another, and GG being the latest). The ruling does not prevent anyone new to wikipedia from editing Campus rape etc. What is under probation is editor behaviour. As long as people play by the rules and don't disrupt articles to make a point - they have nothing to worry about at all. Discretionary Sanctions are like special speed limits in an area that has high traffic, with cops on standby to enforce them - the only people banned from editing them are those topic banned under the gamer gate ruling because they have a s history of escalating disputes in gender related controversies--Cailil ^talk 12:02, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved editor Squiggleslash

(Redacted)

Statement by Rhoark

It would be very difficult to make any contribution to an article on campus rape that would not in some way intersect the controversial matters of statistical prevalence, risk factors, perpetrator demographics, definition of consent, false accusation, due process, or proposed remedies. The whole article must be regarded as a gender-related controversy, and as such MarkBernstein should not be permitted to interact with it. Fortunately, Beauxlieux and her organization need not be uniquely dependent on MarkBernstein to accomplish their goals. I'm sure any member of Wikipedia:WikiProject_Feminism, myself included, would be pleased to help them improve the encyclopedia. We shouldn't let them be used as a human shield against a justified topic ban, and they should consider themselves fortunate to be spared being weaponized for more pointy behavior. Rhoark (talk) 01:28, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Regarding MarkBernstein's latest question, I think that since the purpose of the wide net over gender-related disputes is to prevent exporting proxy wars from Gamergate, it would not be necessary to add any notification to pages not obviously connected to Gamergate or notify contributors to those pages of Gamergate sanctions if they have never at any time made edits related to Gamergate. People who have been notified know what's up, and that's all that matters. Rhoark (talk) 20:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Bishonen

Topic bans are always intended to be broad enough to avoid the possibility of disruptive editing. "Gender-related" and "controversy" are deliberately broad terms, says DGG. But how does such breadth affect an instance where, say, somebody is editing not disruptively, but helpfully, and the broadness of the terms lays them open to being taken to WP:AE for violating that deliberately broad topic ban, and likely enough sanctioned, as in this current AE case? Don't you people care, with your deliberately broad terms? Was that not foreseeable? Compare NorthBySouthBaranof's comment above. I agree with it; indeed, I find it eloquent. I see Thryduulf has responded to it by inviting NBSB to appeal his topic ban at the end of January next year (bah) or to Jimbo (bah) at any time. The gamergate sanctions are a trainwreck. I hereby propose they be amended to support the efforts of editors who defend living people from slander, instead of thwarting and punishing these editors. This is the page not only for clarification, but also amendment, am I right? Please don't tell me to submit a separate amendment case in triplicate, as Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. Bishonen | talk 01:03, 13 March 2015 (UTC).

Statement by {DD2K}

@Masem:

...there's a difference from enforcing BLP which is meant to prevent WP from introducing claims that are harmful to living person, and actively defending living persons...including when living persons are being negatively attacked off-site,... "defending" persons under BLP should not be done on WP.

Absolutely disturbing. I have a strong inclination that if there were an organized group tying certain Bronys to pedophilia, and said brony people had Wikipedia articles that were being attacked with off-site organization, you would feel much differently. The same with some Arbs here, if the people being attacked weren't just some feminist women who act too big for their britches, the case would have looked much different. I don't know if it's the young age of some of the ArbCom members, or if they are just tone deaf. But when you compare the GGTF case and the GG case, it's absurd. Dave Dial (talk) 02:25, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

@Masem: - Your response shows that my comment either went right over your head, or you are being purposely obtuse. In fact, this whole episode from start till know shows exactly how systemic bias works on Wikipedia. Regular, good editors are biased and cannot see their own biases. The absurdity of it all would be funny were it not for the consequences involved. Dave Dial (talk) 13:33, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Starship.paint

Can we now wrap up and close this request, given that nine Arbs, a majority, have pretty much unanimously declared that campus rape is "related to gender and the subject of controversy", thus being within the standard GG topic ban? I'm not very aware of the procedures - what's next and who can close this? starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 05:26, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by {next person}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

GamerGate: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

GamerGate: Arbitrator views and discussion

• I think the topic of campus rape quite clearly falls inside the scope of the DS authorization. I think we should also reject Masem's idea in his statement. If something is covered by the DS, it is covered for all editors equally, there can be no "this set of topics for editor X, and this set for everyone else". As to Bosstopher's comment, they are clearly correct, and we should correct this by motion. (rewritten slightly to clarify what I meant, but the substance is the same). Courcelles (talk) 02:09, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

• TheRedPenOfDoom, this isn't some dramatic expansion of DS, Campus rape is, to me, so clearly a gender-related controversy that it surprises me we even have to discuss it. As to what one arb says somewhere, it doesn't mean the other 14 agree or endorse it, that said, this particular issue of campus rape is not that broad, and is inseparable from gender controversies that the broadly construed language isn't even necessary to have it within the scope as written. Courcelles (talk) 02:09, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

• The question is the scope of "gender-related dispute or controversy," not the validity of the specific topic-ban or the issue of Gamergate itself. The scope is straight-forward - any article, or section of an article, which is controversial or in dispute and is fundamentally related to gender issues. By definition, "Campus rape" is a gender-related issue. Regrettably its prevalence, definitions and demographics are issues of societal controversy (I dont think they should be, but they are). Therefore "Campus rape" is covered by the Gamergate DS and people topic-banned under those DS should edit elsewhere. -- Euryalus (talk) 02:30, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

• Addendum: On this issue I also agree entirely with Rich Farmbrough. -- Euryalus (talk) 02:49, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

• @TheRedPenOfDoom:, where an article is only partly related to gender, the topic ban only applies to those specific parts of the article. So if there was a section in the US Congress article that was about (say) sexual harassment by Congressmen, that would be covered by the ban. The next section on (say) the hours of operation of the Congress, would not. But really there is no need for hair-splitting if the ban is observed in good faith. Anyone with a topic ban should simply not make edits about gender-related issues. There are millions of other articles to work on. -- Euryalus (talk) 03:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

• @Beauxlieux:, thanks for your post. You are perfectly welcome to edit the Campus Rape article. The relevance of this conversation to the article in Campus Rape is you probably shouldn't request editors who have been topic-banned from this area, to work with you on it. Not because you are restricted in any way, but because they are. -- Euryalus2 (talk) 22:08, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
• @Starship.paint:, agree re time to close. Closing is done by the clerks, one will be along fairly soon. -- Euryalus (talk) 06:16, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

• I'm puzzled about why we even have to discuss this. Is campus rape gender a controversy? Yes, obviously. Is that controversy related to gender? Yes, given many reliable sources about the topic focus on one gender and the rates of perpetrators and victims differ very significantly by gender, there is no way this could not be. As such campus rape is clearly within the scope of all gamergate topic bans (not just Mark's). @MarkBernstein: Rich Farmbrough offers good advice here. @TheRedPenOfDoom: Euryalus' reply is absolutely correct. Thryduulf (talk) 10:00, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

  @NorthBySouthBaranof: This is explicitly not an appeal of Mark's topic ban, let alone yours, merely a request for clarification regarding its scope. If you wish to appeal your topic ban from GamerGate you may do so at the end of January next year or to Jimbo at any time. Your comments as they stand are not helpful for determining whether the topic of campus rape is or is not a gender-related controversy. Thryduulf (talk) 14:40, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

  @Squiggleslash: your arguments are based on a false premise, specifically that the topic of campus rape is not controversial. Sure nobody agrees campus rape should happen, but given the controversy about what constitutes rape and how to deal with it there is no part of the topic which is not controversial. Thryduulf (talk) 17:08, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

  @Bishonen: It might seem bureaucratic, but it will be a whole lot easier for everyone to follow if you do wish to file an amendment request that you do it in a new section of this page. You will need to be a whole lot more specific than you have been so far if it is to stand any chance of success though. Thryduulf (talk) 11:09, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

  Actually, Bishonen, you cannot file an amendment request, because these sanctions can only be appealed after one year and because you are *not* the sanctioned editor. So, basically, your appeal would be a waste of time. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 11:23, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Added *not*. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 17:24, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

  @Salvio giuliano:. I think you mean "you are not the sanctioned editor." Courcelles (talk) 16:56, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

  You're quite right, thanks. I've just fixed my mistake. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 17:24, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

  @DHeyward:. The wording is standard with other topic bans, which have always been interpreted as applying to sections of articles where the whole page is not related to the topic, and anyway in the case of e.g. the BLP then the page is not related to (a), (b) or (c). No change is needed and this request can be archived when a clerk gets to it. Thryduulf (talk) 15:25, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

• What Euryalus said. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 10:01, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
• Yes, what he said, but also noting that it isn't whether anyone supports campus rape, it's that it is both gender related and controversial - a number of colleges have tried to cover it up in various ways. That's clearly controversial. Dougweller (talk) 16:12, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

  And to reinforce what some of my colleagues have said, this is a topic ban, not an article ban, although some articles would fall entirely within the topic. A BLP on someone which had a section relating to a gender-related controversy wouldn't be, as an article, under the topic ban, but anything related to the controversy would be covered. A topic banned editor would have to avoid that but could still edit the rest of the article. Dougweller (talk) 19:16, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

• I essentially agree with the above. Campus rape is a gender related issue in terms of prevalence, and is also a controversial subject, so it is covered by the topic ban. While it is true that reliable sources all agree it shouldn't happen, there is a great deal of social controversy over how to best address it and the like. As to a subject like the NFL, brought up by TheRedPenOfDoom, if a controversy that the NFL is involved in is gender related, that particular subject would be covered by the topic ban. If a controversy is not gender related (for a recent example, the controversy over its status as a nonprofit would be one such), that is not covered. And certainly, updating win-loss records for a given season would not be prohibited, since that's likely neither controversial nor gender-related. The entire subject certainly is not covered just because some facets could be, as is true of any topic ban. As MarkBernstein has indicated that he does not intend this to be an appeal to the topic ban itself, I intend this as general comment for anyone subject to such a topic ban, not an opinion on the validity of this particular instance. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:11, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
• I also agree with the above. Topic bans are always intended to be broad enough to avoid the possibility of disruptive editing. "Gender-related" and "controversy" are deliberately broad terms, and the includes them material in question. If it is disputed in good faith whether or not some material is controversial, that normally indicates that it is controversial for this purpose. And topic bans normally refer to topics, not only to entire articles. As with the other comments, this is intended a a general explanation, for the benefit of all editors concerned. DGG ( talk ) 17:53, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
• Campus rape, as a topic, is both related to gender and the subject of controversy. I have to admit, I struggle to even understand how someone could argue otherwise. Whilst it is not related to Gamergate, it still clearly falls under the topic ban. That said, Mark Bernstein is topic-banned on Wikipedia, meaning that he cannot edit the article or discuss it here. He stated in his orginal message that he was asking "only to advise an organization seeking [his] advice", and he is perfectly free to offer his advice and opinions to other organisations and editors outside Wikipedia. Yunshui ^雲_水 11:34, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with my colleagues. The topic plainly falls within scope. AGK [•] 01:06, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

---