Talk:Jesus

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Frequently asked questions

Q1: What should this article be named?

A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname.

Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates?

A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format.

Q3: Did Jesus exist?

A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information.

Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Wikipedia?

The issue was discussed on the talk page:

Based on this Wikipedia search the phrase is widely used in Wikipedia.
The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.

Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?

Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.

Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?

The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:

Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.

The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.

Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?

The formal Wikipedia guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Wikipedia guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".

Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?

A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.

Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian?

A4: No. According to Bart D. Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (2014, ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question:

Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally.^[1] For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine,^[2] Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."^[3]^[4]
Finally, Wikipedia policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.

Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others?

A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:

Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.

As the article states, Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her words very carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc.

Q6: Why is the infobox so brief?

A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below.

Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?: Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?: The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.

Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus?

A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the 2006 discussion, the June 2010 discussion, the November 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions.

Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences?

A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed by WP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article, as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians.

Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus?

A9: This article uses the apostrophe-only possessive: Jesus', not Jesus's. Do not change usage within quotes. That was decided in this discussion.

Q10: Why does the article state "[m]ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don't all Christians believe this?

A10: Wikipedia requires a neutral point of view written utilizing reliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such as Unitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including in this discussion.

References

^ R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
^ Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
^ Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.
^ Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

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Jesus birth year

Why does this article assert that Jesus was born in the year 4 BC? How would Christ be born 4 years before Christ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mralekob (talk • contribs)

Well, because the monk who established the Christian calendar never had precise data about the date of birth of Jesus. So he established an arbitrary (approximate) 1 AD at the year he thought Jesus should have been born. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:54, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus born in 4 BC comes from Herod died in 4 BC (one of the gospels links Jesus's birth to Herod's death). To further complicate the matter, there are minority views that Herod died in either 1 BC or 1 AD. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:05, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the end, 4 BC is an estimate, not a hard historical fact, and mainstream Bible scholars usually place Jesus's birth from 7 BC to 2 BC. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:11, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another method is counting back 33 years from Jesus's crucifixion, but this assumes we would know the year Jesus got crucified. Usually, that year is supposed to be either 30 AD or 33 AD, but again this isn't a hard fact. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Drawing the line: that monk did not have precise data, and we don't have either. As many stuff from Ancient history, we can only know such facts to some degree of probability and we will probably never know with certainty. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:40, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 19 July 2021

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

41.36.5.83 (talk) 23:32, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I only want to change the photo of Jesus And Put another one please.

The infobox photo has been the subject of discussions in the past, so a new consensus should be determined before using the edit request template for the change. What image did you have in mind? VQuakr (talk) 00:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Added at the bottom

Jesus is a religious, cultural, worldwide icon, and is among the most influential people in human history. (Reference here) - User:Sleetimetraveller

Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2021

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Reference; English translated bibles. Jesus is more than a first-century preacher. Emmanuel is the first name called meaning "God is with us." then later in the gospel of Matthew 1:25 "and he called his name Jesus." Also, in the gospel of Mark chapter 1, verse 1; the writer references Jesus as "the Son of God." Also, in the gospel of Luke, versus 31 & 32 Jesus is referenced as "the Son of the highest." Recommend you change the verbiage from "Jesus was a first century preacher." to "Jesus is the Son of God." 72.42.136.31 (talk) 00:10, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:17, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Altruism

Jesus's message in the Great Commandment has two laws: the first law deals with matters of faith and the second law good works (love, altruism?). The second law stuff can be detailed by this fairly short list:

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" Matthew 7:12
"Love one another as I have loved you" John 13:34
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" John 8:7.
"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's..." Matthew 22:22
The widow's mite, Mark 12:38-44
The rich man and Lazarus Luke 16:19-31

and some others. This second law stuff also falls under something along the lines of the general welfare clause and Richard Dawkins' "nice guys finish first" and stuff. Can we somehow highlight the second law in the text as usable by some atheists? Maybe it is just altruism or the Golden Rule.--Lindamcca (talk) 22:26, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Royalty

@HerbiePocket: https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford says that I am a descendant of Charlemagne. May I have my own Wikipedia article, and should it say that I'm royalty? tgeorgescu (talk) 21:32, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Son, that is perhaps the very definition of specious reasoning. It appears that you want to make a trite argue that I'm not going to engage in.

However, as a matter of education I will provide an operational definition for you. Jewish royals are: 1) patrilineal descendants of David or Saul, such as the Exilarchate, Nesi'm, or the various Messianic claimants who lay this claim either de facto or de jure, 2) Jews who marry into a royal families, and thus become royals 3) a sovereign who converts to Judaism, such with the Himyar kingdom or the Khazars — Preceding unsigned comment added by HerbiePocket (talk • contribs)

This is a religiously neutral, i.e. secular encyclopedia. I see no reason to apply a wholly different definition for Category:Jewish royalty than for Category:Danish royalty and Category:Swedish royalty. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:20, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, HerbiePocket, you're going to need to find some sources that back up your definitions; otherwise this is simply WP:OR. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but it does mean it's a claim we can't make on Wikipedia. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 23:16, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Or Category:French royalty and Category:Russian royalty, to use more appropriate examples. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This reminds me of how I have applied Category:Jewish communists to the Twelve Apostles at Romanian Wikipedia. Noob mistake. A good case can be made that Jesus's Apostles were Jewish and that they were Communists. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:06, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would also say that if this is a useful category, it is a supercategory so includes other categories rather than articles for most part. For instance Category:Jewish messiah claimants, Category:Exilarchs (btw is there any evidence that the exilarchs considered themselves royalty beyond the first legendary ones?), Category:Omrides, Category:Davidic line,... --Erp (talk) 02:04, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus, King of the Jews is apparently a thing. Aren't kings considered royalty? Or what's the story there? 78.28.44.31 (talk) 12:21, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49

[Hick_page_27-2] Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.

[ConrandHyersFooterBio-3] Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.

[4] Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

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