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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 130.228.167.147 (talk) at 14:05, 23 October 2021 (→‎Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2021: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Noelle is an artist for Marvel (on Thor and Runaways) and works on Lumberjanes too. She needs her own, non-Nimona page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeine (talk • contribs) 15:55, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi folks,

I can't edit the page myself, but I've noticed that cite note 19, for "She identifies as non-binary and uses any personal pronouns", incorrectly has the same link as that in cite note 18 and gives the wrong Twitter handle. The "archived" link does go to the correct tweet. The main link should be pointing to https://twitter.com/Gingerhazing/status/1283210124081823744 but currently points to https://twitter.com/MollyOstertag/status/1175955520311545857 instead. And the text in the footnote should state Noelle's Twitter handle as @Gingerhazing rather than @MollyOstertag.

Thanks to whoever can make these changes!

89.36.64.76 (talk) 02:02, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Good work spotting this! Gehenna1510 (talk) 15:04, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Quick note on gender and gender identity

Just a quick note: Stevenson recently released a comic called "the weight of them" through Gumroad, which touches on her gender and gender identity. In the work, Stevenson explicitly says that "using any pronouns doesn't always seem very practical, but I like it, at least for now." From my reading of this line and from the comic as a whole (as well as her Twitter, etc.), Stevenson is fine with being referred to as "she." I see that this is already touched upon in the "Personal life" section, but I thought it was something to be aware of and to note on the talk page in case anyone gets confused, is curious, etc.--Gen. Quon (Talk) 19:32, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's good to make a note of. I was going to add something from the new preferred pronouns template, but I think the page is sufficient for now. --Historyday01 (talk) 15:28, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Historyday01 and Gen. Quon: just wanted to get back to you that I've added the {{Article pronouns}} template above in an attempt to deal with this, and wanted to get your feedback.
Historyday01 is correct in their note about "the new preferred pronouns template", but this template was renamed to "{{Article pronouns}}" for a few reasons, including "preferred" not being the best choice of words (see discussion), and also for cases like this one and other biographies where the subject was fine with more than one pronouns style but the article had to pick something to use for consistency.
So, the name "Article pronouns" suggests guidance for editors at the article something like: "this is what this Wikipedia article uses for this person, per source(s)", and not: "this person uses this/these pronoun(s)". For someone like Stevenson who might be fine with any pronouns, or Leslie Feinberg who uses she/her, zie/hir, and is also fine (sometimes) with any pronouns, the template merely states what the article pronoun usage recommendation is, and doesn't try to encapsulate all the subtleties of a person's entire attitude about their pronoun usage in a brief template, which can be better covered in more detail in the article itself, as is the case for example with Feinberg at Leslie Feinberg#Pronoun usage.
Does that make sense? Feel free to adjust the template above as needed. Mathglot (talk) 19:37, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
After editing this article, I wanted to add my thoughts on what pronoun to use when writing this article. As noted before, Stevenson is fine with any pronouns, so when we write this article we can use whatever pronouns we think most appropriate, based on our goal of making the article the most useful and informative to a reader. Using "she" carries a risk that the reader will assume Stevenson is simply female, or even that Stevenson is cis. (Yes the article says that Stevenson is non-binary, but a reader might jump into the middle of the article.) To use "she" also requires answering the question "why she and not he?" Is the reason that Stevenson is AFAB? Is it that, when it was written, Stevenson's Twitter bio said "she/he/they" and we just went with the first item on that list? (If so, it now says "he/she/they".) The choice of "she" over "he" is also harder to justify given Stevenson's self-description of transmasculine.
I instead recommend "they". It prevents any assumptions about gender by the reader. It gently indicates that Stevenson is non-binary. And it dodges the "if you're going to use a gendered pronoun, then which one" question.
Again, given Stevenson's own "any pronoun" approach, our question is "what approach for this article is most useful for a reader?" I think it is "they". What do other people think? HenryCrun15 (talk) 05:37, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
HenryCrun15, I think we should keep "she". It complies with Stevenson's stated preferences and has the additional bonus of not confusing readers, who may be used to reading about Stevenson as "she" in sources. We should follow reliable sources, see WP:NOR. Using the nonstandard pronoun "they" (or "he", especially accompanying a feminine photograph) would also foreground Stevenson's nonstandard gender identity in a way that would unduly distract from what this article is mainly about: her career as a creative professional. Sandstein 06:24, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fair point, @Sandstein:. I just did a quick search for recent articles about Stevenson and they universally used "she". So you're right that it is consistent with the sources on the subject, which is important. HenryCrun15 (talk) 07:25, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I heavily disagree that it's appropriate to pick someone's pronouns based on their photo, or that someone's gender or use of pronouns might "distract" from the talk about Noelle's career. I agree with the person above pointing out the more recent developments of Noelle IDing as transmasculine and changing the order of pronouns on the twitter bio. I would suggest changing the pronouns to either "he" (to respect/reflect the ID as transmasculine and change of pronoun order on twitter), or "they" (to avoid the issue altogether). I think it's a terrible precedent/approach to use someone's physical appearance to justify which pronoun to use in cases like this. 119.224.38.150 (talk) 10:31, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As for choosing someone's pronouns, my understanding is this was done based on those listed on Noelle's Twitter profile and reliable sources, not anything else. Anyway, wouldn't object to changing it the pronouns to he/him/his, but I'd like to hear what others have to say. Any more comments on this, @Sandstein, HenryCrun15, and Mathglot:?Historyday01 (talk) 13:06, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Historyday01, as noted above, I think that "she" is appropriate, because it matches her description in reliable sources and complies with her own preferences. Sandstein 15:45, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That was my thinking too and I'm fine with it staying as "she," but I just thought it might be worth broaching the subject again. Historyday01 (talk) 19:44, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 31 January 2021

Do not exclusively use the pronouns that align with AGAB for a non-binary individual. Either they/them or mixed, so as to not imply that they are still just a woman 64.189.201.55 (talk) 04:02, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

PINGing the users who participated in the discussion above regarding pronouns/gender identity: @Gen. Quon and Historyday01. Seagull123 Φ 21:48, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In cases like this one where the subject expresses no preference, we should use the pronouns used by reliable sources, i.e. "she". Changing pronouns mid-text is WP:OR and confuses readers. Sandstein 22:12, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Seagull123, thanks for pinging me. Noelle Stevenson still says on her official Twitter that she prefers ANY pronouns, and usually the articles I've read that have talked about her have used "she," "he," or "they," like this recent article in Out Magazine which uses all three of those pronouns. Yeah, Sandstein, I agree with your assessment here. --Historyday01 (talk) 23:20, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with what the others have said. If Stevenson is OK with any pronoun, and the sources use certain ones, it would make sense to defer to what the sources say.--Gen. Quon (Talk) 01:07, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Per previous discussion above, this article uses she/her, and that is compliant with Stevenson's own wishes and MOS:GENDERID, so I see no reason to change it. While a person may be okay with any pronouns, this doesn't mean that writing about them should be arbitrary and inconsistent. Normally, a Wikipedia biography would need to pick one set of pronouns for consistency (and I'm not in favor of the position Out took in their story being replicated at an encyclopedia, although it may work in that context). There's nothing wrong with adding a section to the article itself to explain any subtleties involved in an individual's pronoun usage; see for example, Leslie Feinberg#Pronoun usage as a possible model. In addition, the {{Article pronouns}} template may be added to the Talk page to offer guidance about what to do at the article. Mathglot (talk) 19:50, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mathglot, that makes sense. I personally didn't see the need to add a section about pronouns usage, as I just stuck that information in the "personal life" section, but I don't have any opposition to such a section either. Yes, I saw that pronouns template and I added it to some pages already, but thanks for mentioning it again! I'm also not sure about the position Out took either, but I understand why they did it. Historyday01 (talk) 20:06, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That all looks good/makes sense to me. The bit about Out is an interesting point. I get why they did it, but it also does seem like it could cause some confusion on an encyclopedia site like this. It's definitely something to think about.--Gen. Quon (Talk) 01:38, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

{{edit semi-protected}}

I would like to edit this page but it is not allowing me to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lollypop2298! (talk • contribs)

Lollypop2298!, that's because the page is set to allow only contributions by editors with some experience. But you can propose your edits here (remember that they need reliable sources). Sandstein 21:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2021

Noelle Stevenson is incorrectly referred to as "she" in this article, as they recent ley came out as non-binary, any references to them as "she" need to be replaced Trenchgun1 (talk) 01:53, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. Current consensus is to use she/her while Stevenson says that she uses any pronouns. See talk page header. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 01:57, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ganbaruby is right. Her Twitter account directly says that any pronouns can be used, whether they, she, or he, an this article uses she/her for consistency. Historyday01 (talk) 02:35, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2021

Noelle has changed pronouns. Smilingalpaca (talk) 15:02, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Smilingalpaca, what's the source for that? Sandstein 16:37, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Her Twitter profile STILL says (as it has for a while now) "any pronouns," so I don't see any change. If she did have a change, she would definitely mention it in a Tweet or something. --Historyday01 (talk) 17:11, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Categories which may be outdated or misgendering

Stevenson is still listed under various female/women categories at the bottom of the page. I assume it's from prior to her coming out as nonbinary. Time for removing/altering them? Mcc1789 (talk) 03:01, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps so? I think "Category:American female comics artists" could be removed, as "Category:American webcomic creators," is already there, a category Ostertag is already in herself. I didn't see one for non-binary comic writers or one more broadly for LGBTQ artists... I think "Category:Female comics writers" could be removed and replaced with "Category:Comics writers" (Crystal Frasier who is trans is in that category). Similarly, "Category:American women television producers" could be changed to "Category:American television producers", I suppose. As for "Category:Women television writers," I don't see any similar category for writers who aren't men and women, as "Category:Television writers" may be too broad. The same goes for "Category:Women science fiction and fantasy writers" as the broader categories like "Category:Science fiction writers" and "Category:Fantasy writers" don't have sections for LGBTQ writers who aren't men and women. Before making some changes, I'd like to hear from other people. I'd be willing to create some new categories if necessary, as well. Historyday01 (talk) 15:21, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. It seems like some new categories might be in order. We do have "Category:Non-binary writers", but that's broad as well. Mcc1789 (talk) 18:20, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Some non-binary people are likely in categories like the "Women television writers" and "Women science fiction and fantasy writers," just a guess here, because other categories don't currently exist. --Historyday01 (talk) 18:22, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's probably true (also some likely in men's categories). Elliot Page might be one for me to check next... Mcc1789 (talk) 19:54, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good idea. I'd definitely check that. Historyday01 (talk) 20:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Page is in the nonbinary and transgender actors categories only. You think it would be okay to change Stevenson's categories as well?Mcc1789 (talk) 23:58, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I think it would make sense. Historyday01 (talk) 00:04, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 15 June 2021

Under Career -> Animation, add the following sentences to the end: Stevenson was working on a film version of Nimona with Blue Sky Studios. However, as part of an acquisition, Disney shut down and laid off the studio's employees. The film, which was said to be 'roughly 75 percent' done, was reportedly being shopped around to other studios.

Sources: https://collider.com/nimona-movie-cast-cancelled-disney-blue-sky/ https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/laurenstrapagiel/disney-nimona-movie-lgbtq-characters BubbleBub (talk) 17:35, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. If she had a role in the film's crew (which is possible), neither of these articles says she had a role in the film's production, only that she wrote the Nimona comic and her comments of the film's cancellation. Also, the tone of her tweet ("Got to see some recent reels and art from Nimona today. Absolutely blew me away and I’m so heartbroken you won’t be able to see it. Blue Sky was making something really special.") included in the Buzzfeed article, seems to imply she was a consultant but not directly involved in the production. If you can find something more concrete showing that she had a role in the film's production, then please provide sources of that. Historyday01 (talk) 19:05, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2021

Can the article use more the only she/her pronouns for Noelle, since it state that he's transmasc and go by any pronouns, not just she/her :) 130.228.167.147 (talk) 14:05, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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