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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nomadicghumakkad (talk | contribs) at 15:40, 13 April 2022 (→‎Give up AFC rights). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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    A general observation, more than anything: there are a lot of drafts in the queue to do with Serbia, many of them created by IP editor(s) geolocating to Ontario — anyone happen to know the story behind this? I've just declined three that were translated from srwiki but failed on referencing and/or notability grounds; it seems the requirements there are lower than here on enwiki. Seems a pity for someone to be putting in all this effort, with not a great success rate. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:34, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Couldn't say, maybe a university project, family connections, or a spam farm, the list is rather extensive. You could always try asking them why they're focusing on this topic area, since it seems like they've got an issue recognising when something is notable or not. Primefac (talk) 10:38, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    This has been going on for at least a year, maybe longer - different IP's in the same range but the same types of ref/cite format errors makes me think just one person. They appear unable or unwilling to improve or interact not helped by IP swapping lots, so just keep translating and submitting. However if I remember correctly someone determined that a lot of them probably were notable historic figures just badly sourced, so without someone willing to find more Serbian sources a decline is probably the death of them (So I think someone was accepting some to see how they got treated in main-space, but I don't remember even seeing an update). KylieTastic (talk) 12:56, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, I feel like there are two separate cases here. There is the IP editor from Canada who is creating articles about Serbian Orthodox Church history in Canada (adding the churches and prominent Serbian Canadian figures), and then there the the IP editor who is creating articles about prominent historical Serbs. For the Canadian user, I tried to provide support as to what I thought the drafts would need to be accepted (less information about Serbian-Canadian history, more information about the Church itself, less editorializing) but any edits were piecemeal (if at all). I think one of the issues that happens with the other user is that they are translating articles from srwiki (which has the option of latin script or cyrillic) from cyrillic, which malforms the reference templates. There might be a case for GNG notability, but I think many of these are passing mentions in historical "Who's Who" books on Google Books. When it comes to notability, I fall back on WP:NPOL for some of the political figures and membership in the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences or Matica srpska for WP:NPROF or other notability.
    I agree with KylieTastic that this has been going on for a long time. Given the continued animosity that different ethnic groups have for one another in the former Yugoslavia, I have kept my eye on these drafts to look them over for NPOV and notability issues. My concern (and apologies to everyone for not assuming good faith) is that it's a concerted effort to boost the amount of content for one group relative to another (which isn't in and of itself wrong, see WP:WiR and our efforts to combat systemic bias). Bkissin (talk) 13:39, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The editor who does translations about Serbian figures is good, their drafts are hit-or-miss, but otherwise very productive. However, I'm very concerned about the Canadian IP that Bkissin mentioned; there is a good chance this may be the artist known as Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of JohnGotten, as the sock of theirs that I encountered, Aquinasthomes1, almost exclusively created articles about Serbian Orthodox people and buildings in North America. Curbon7 (talk) 08:35, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Helper script

    Thank you everyone working on the script for the new changes, especially the short description field! I've been updating that manually and it's saving me an extra step almost every time. Rusalkii (talk) 13:14, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Ishan Pathan

    Ishan Pathan is YouTube social media model and actor 2402:8100:39E3:CE66:F3B4:E351:E7EC:B4DF (talk) 07:23, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    You can start this article, if they are supported by reliable sources and must have passes the notability criteria. Thank you! Fade258 (talk) 08:22, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Please see Wikipedia:Article wizard for help creating this as a draft. –Novem Linguae (talk) 16:47, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Visibility of AfC comments?

    You know how those editing on mobile devices don't get alerted to some mentions and talk page notifications etc. (WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU) — is there similarly some sort of technical reason affecting the visibility of the comments we leave as part of the AfC process (by which I mean mainly the extra comments, rather than the canned message, but that too)? Just wondering as some drafts get repeatedly declined for the same reason, and the accompanying messages get increasingly urgent and agitated; it's as if the author/submitter isn't reading them at all, and I just wondered if it's because they can't actually read them? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:58, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    • DoubleGrazing well you can see them on a mobile browser (i.e en.m.wikipedia.org), and I've just tested and you can see in the iOS App. I think some people just think they have a right to publish what they want just like they can on social media (mostly), they just can't understand the concept of "Encyclopedic content". KylieTastic (talk) 13:16, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Yeah, you may be right. I was trying to AGF, although I keep being proven wrong... -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 13:38, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • User:DoubleGrazing - What do you mean bythe accompanying messages get increasingly urgent and agitated? Do you mean that the submitter is becoming increasingly demanding, or that the reviewer is replying with increasing emphasis that the submission is not acceptable? If you mean the latter, and I do often see where the comments accompanying the decline become stronger, then I am not sure it is fair to the reviewers to say that they are becoming "agitated", at least not in the cases that I see. I think that your question has been answered, which is that the submitter does see the decline messages. I think that the explanation is that some submitters are stupid. That's an unkind assessment, but the stupid submitters are being unkind to both themselves and the reviewers. I think that some reviewers should use Reject sooner than they do, but some stupid persistent editors continue to submit after rejection. Are you referring to the submitter messages getting more urgent, or the decline messages getting more urgent? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:07, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        @Robert McClenon: I mean the latter, the reviewers gradually moving from gently suggesting something, to pleading in desperation. Which I fully empathise with, I should add; it can be incredibly frustrating when the authors don't pay any attention to, and/or don't understand, the advice given, and just keep failing for the same reason over and over. (I also think some are actually trying to game the system, but they are fortunately a small minority. Hanlon's razor usually applies.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:20, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Verifiability and reviewers

    When determining that the subject of a draft is notable, I usually try verifying the entire draft, removing content and applying tags accordingly, before accepting. This obviously takes quite a bit of time and reduces the number of promising drafts that I can review. How extensively do other reviewers check drafts? And are my efforts redundant if NPP reviewers do the same (I don't know how NPP works)? 15 (talk) 17:33, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Because I see this as a triage situation, I first look the draft over to identify the claim of notability. If the draft asserts something that would pass an SNG (like NPOL, NOLY, etc.), it's easy to check the citation for that specific claim. The same is true for assertions towards ANYBIO. If there is only a claim for GNG, then yes, it's checking each source. Usually a draft will clearly pass or fail before I have to check the fourth or fifth reference so checking all is never necessary. You're doing more work than a mere draft merits. And since many editors rightly feel ownership over their edits, I'd rather the draft goes forward as they wrote it than re-writing solely so that it passes. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:46, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Concur with most of this - I do a source check first, which quickly allows me to determine if the subject is notable (and properly sourced). If an article is acceptable (and a BLP) I might remove the odd unsourced paragraph, but generally speaking I don't try to match up sources and statements for accuracy or do any major cleaning other than formatting, elinks, etc. Primefac (talk) 08:39, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    My method is similar to Chris's except I sometimes do cleanup or some formatting or I might search for additional sources if I think the subject is notable but another source or two would be helpful. I rarely read through all the sources cited. S0091 (talk) 21:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm only going to do a lot of clean-up and development if the subject is of particular interest (for example, if it would make a good DYK). Otherwise I'm just asking myself, if I came across this article in mainspace, would I nominate it for deletion - if the answer is NO, I'm likely to accept the article (and do the bare minimum - categorising, MOS fixes, to make it suitable for mainspace). Sionk (talk) 21:20, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I've posted the flowchart from reviewer's instructions. If you check for copyright violations and notability you'll avoid most problems. BLPs require a bit more work. If you do more you're helping to maintain the AfC gauntlet. ~Kvng (talk) 03:06, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Replacing a redirect

    I've accepted a draft for Barbara Ferrer (American health official) however there was already a re-direct page for her name in mainspace. I've deleted the content of the re-direct page but now I'm stumped as to how to move the new article into that page. I think an admin needs to do this? TIA! MurielMary (talk) 10:29, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    South Sudan copy vios

    FYI: I've just found three new editors posting about South Sudan all copywrite violations - maybe another edit event with poor basics coverage. Just one to watch for. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 11:43, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Showing warning for use of deprecated/unreliable sources in AfC submit script

    I'm wondering if AfC folks would consider it useful if the AfC submit script (WP:AFCSW) showed a notice/warning when a draft citing deprecated/blacklisted/unreliable sources is being submitted. I think this would encourage authors to revisit their citations before submitting.

    From implementation point of view, @Headbomb's User:Headbomb/unreliable.js contains some massive regexes for different categories of unreliability. Any suggestions regarding which of those regexes to handle in AFCSW? – SD0001 (talk) 12:57, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    • I certainly think deprecated and blacklisted should be flagged to be removed and replaced as unacceptable. For unreliable sources the wording would have to be simple and clear due to the nuance involved. KylieTastic (talk) 13:08, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Submission template

    What is the correct form/parameter of the submission template to have the "click here to submit" button? Draft:World Divyang T10 was draftified at AFD but the neccesary template has not yet been added.

    We don't seem to have any guidance here (that I could find) about the templates and parameters that we use. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:26, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    {{subst:AfC submission/draftnew}} – robertsky (talk) 07:39, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Go easier than that, just put {{AfC submission/draft}}. Primefac (talk) 08:40, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Avoiding edit conflicts

    Tracked in github.com
    Issue #153

    On two occasions today I have edit conflicted with another editor when reviewing a draft (on User:EicSE/sandbox and User:Preetham Gowda R/sandbox). What happens is that the second review (and comment, if there is one) replaces the first, and both reviews send a post to the submitter's talk page. This seems problematic because of the duplicate messages on the talk page, which may be confusing. Is there any good way to avoid this? eviolite (talk) 13:13, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    @Eviolite I believe this to be a known and probably insurmountable problem. Serendipity is the only way to avoid this that I know of. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 13:16, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I see. Should we try to clean up manually by e.g. removing the duplicate talk page comments or just leave it alone when it happens? eviolite (talk) 13:26, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Would marking it as "under review" help avoid this problem? And a supplementary question: has anyone ever actually used that feature, or know anyone who has? ;) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 13:42, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I use it when I'm waiting for a redirect to be deleted, but never until I've actually completed my review and decided to accept. Rusalkii (talk) 14:29, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @DoubleGrazing I use it. I do so if `I am going to take a while. However,it will not stop one person hitting "Under Review" while the other hits accept/reject/decline.
    It happens most often in the "Drafts in Userspace" category when two or more reviewers are working simultaneously with low hanging fruit - a good thing to be doing. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 16:03, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a known issue with AFCH. I believe it to be fixable. Could script AFCH to track the time you loaded the page, and then when you hit the submit button have AFCH compare the saved time to the top revision of the page history, and look for edit conflicts. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:18, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    What we call edit conflicts in Wikipedia are what are known in computer science and electrical engineering as race conditions. They are a common problem in computing, especially in computer systems that support multiple users. They are increasingly likely as the number of users increases, and Wikipedia has very many users. There has been a great deal of practical and theoretical work done on minimizing race conditions, but they will happen, and there is no way to eliminate them. We have to be aware that they do happen. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:10, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I avoid conflicts by reviewing drafts in random order. Each of the categories by age has a "Random page in this category" button. A link like this does an even better job. ~Kvng (talk) 03:13, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    resubmitting a draft

    I assume this isn't correct procedure? It's happened three or four times now. – 2.O.Boxing 07:33, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    • Squared.Circle.Boxing no its not and its clear that the IPs are related to the submitter account as all are single purpose (the boxing twins), so falls under Sockpuppetry. Sometimes a warning or two for disruptive editing helps stop, if not if an article subject is definitely not notable (rather than just a source issue) then we normally take to Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion to shut down the issue. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 08:26, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • User:Squared.Circle.Boxing - What you are asking about is removing the record of a previous decline or rejection of a draft. You are correct that that is not permitted. The decline message states that it (the decline message) should not be removed until the draft is accepted. Removing the record of previous declines is a relatively common abuse, and not a very effective one, because the reviewers normally notice that it has been done, and restore the record of the declines. As User:KylieTastic says, the offender can be warned, and the draft can be rejected, or nominated for deletion. In this case, it was done by IP addresses, and the fix is to request semi-protection, which I did, and which has been applied. So, yes, it is not permitted, and it is a relatively common but ineffective abuse. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:56, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Make Wikipedia:Articles for creation more obvious about how to create a redirect or category

    The current layout of Wikipedia:Articles for creation, which places links to create redirects and categories at the very bottom below the fold, was created before the 2017 rewrite of the Article Wizard removed the ability to create redirects and categories. Most new users aren't going to scroll down below the note about reviewers, lists of recent articles, and counts of article submissions to find the paragraph about creating redirects or categories, and will instead end up at the article wizard which won't help them at all. I propose moving the "Creating redirects, adding categories or uploading files" section above the "Reviewers" section. --Ahecht (TALK
    PAGE    ) 22:41, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

     Done. Primefac (talk) 08:21, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    The Great Translation Movement

    I looked at this draft a couple of times, and couldn't really make heads or tails of it. I was going to have another look this morning, only to realise that it has already been moved into the main space (without being accepted, that is). Has anyone else come across this, and what are your thoughts? (I guess it's one for the new page patrol now, but still.) Thanks, -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:29, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    @DoubleGrazing: I probably would not have accepted this page due to the 1. POV sources, not including RFA, 2. neologism, being a new twitter and reddit movement, 3. a limited amount of actual notability and 4. poorly written.
    As with internet movements, perhaps its too soon to call its notability, but I feel it may not survive AfD in a few months, though usually, few such articles are deleted and are often just neglected. Gorden 2211 (talk) 02:07, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Copyvio on Draft:Bass (Mega Man)

    Special:Diff/1080560948 - Here because not looking to make a big deal but is this declination of CSD correct?Slywriter (talk) 00:44, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    The Fandom page states that the content is released under a CC BY-SA 3.0 license, which is compatible with Wikipedia. G12 does not apply here because it excludes freely-licensed material where attribution is fixable. However, the page does need to acknowledge that text has been copied from the source, so I have added a statement to that effect in this diff. DanCherek (talk) 01:18, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, probably should have re-read G12. Will keep in mind for future.Slywriter (talk) 01:58, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposed deletion of St. Vincent Grammar School

    Notice

    The article St. Vincent Grammar School has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

    No reliable secondary sources in its 9.69-year history; no evidence of meeting the notability guideline

    While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

    You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

    Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 00:01, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Note: This article was accepted at AfC in 2012 when the notability standards and/or its enforcement may have differ from present day's standards and/or enforcement. – robertsky (talk) 02:29, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Geoffrey Bartlett

    There is quite an old draft at Draft:Geoffrey Bartlett about an Australian artist; it's a tricky one, and I was first going to just sail by, but I guess I shouldn't just ignore it because it's challenging. I would appreciate more eyes on it, though, and/or any words of wisdom.

    Firstly, the creator has on their user page declared a COI, but it's not clear what this means — autobio, UPE, or something else?

    Secondly, the draft cites a large number of sources, but most of them are offline, and some are a bit unclear. Now, I know that offline sources are acceptable, but when most of the article is supported by somewhat obscure offline texts, it begs the question how can we know they actually support the article contents, and do they even provide such coverage as to establish notability? (AGF and all that, I'm not accusing the author of anything inappropriate, but it is their first and only article, and perhaps they just haven't quite got the hang of referencing and notability yet.)

    It has been suggested that the subject might satisfy WP:ARTIST notability, in which case there is less of a need to find sigcov in the sources, but even then we still need to be able to verify the contents, surely.

    The fundamental objective of AfC is to gauge whether an article would survive at AfD, and I sincerely believe this would. On that basis one could argue we should just go ahead and accept it — but that IMHO turns the burden of proof upside-down, resulting in someone thinking of moving an AfD having to show that the subject isn't notable (again, very difficult because of the offline sources), when I don't think it has been yet shown conclusively (by the creating editor or others) that it is notable.

    Any thoughts? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:04, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    If you scroll down to Articles & Reviews here, there's a long list of newspaper coverage about him, in some of which he's clearly the primary topic. Here's something in the Sydney Morning Herald, I haven't checked any more but I expect there to be at least two more good articles and that seems plenty for GNG. Given that I can externally verify he's notable, I'd accept and AGF on the offline sources saying what they claim they do. Rusalkii (talk) 19:47, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Draft:LuckyDesigns

    I rejected Draft:LuckyDesigns two-and-a-bit weeks ago, yet the editor has continued to make about 100 edits to it, none that takes it closer to WP:NBIO. As the text is not exclusively promotional I don't think it is G11able. Do I just ignore it, wait until the editor gets bored at creating their vanity bio in draftspace and let it eventually get G13ed, or is this worth an MfD? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 13:34, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

     Done Thanks all. It has now been deleted as U5: Misuse of Wikipedia as a web host. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 11:38, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Submit-a-draft suggestion

    Hi, I just submitted a draft for a disambiguation page, Draft:PWX, and had a surprise when I was going through the submission process. Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Submitting noticed that the page was marked with {{disambiguation}} and prefilled a short description saying "Topics referred to by the same term". However another part of the same page gave me an error message warning me that my submission was likely to be declined because it didn't have any references. Disambiguation pages shouldn't have references, and since the page can detect that a submission is a disambiguation page, shouldn't the "you have no references" warning be disabled for disambiguation submissions? 49.198.51.54 (talk) 07:24, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]


    Give up AFC rights

    I'd like to give up my AFC rights. Can someone help with that? Nomadicghumakkad (talk) 11:09, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Just don't use them. Don't review. It isn't required anyway. Is there a reason why you want to have the right removed? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Hey Nomadicghumakkad the normal place would probably be the same as asking for them Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/Participants however I'm sure Primefac or another admin will notice this request here. Robert McClenon see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Misuse_of_powers if you want to known the background. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 15:28, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Rightly pointed out. I don't want to have these rights because these constant allegations that are being made. If folks feel my AFC work is appropriate, I am happy to keep them. But in presence of these allegations, I don't prefer to keep them. What's the point of providing hours of selfless service to this platform and then go through this because some other editors don't agree with what you thought was notable and okay for mainspace. Nomadicghumakkad (talk) 15:40, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation&oldid=1082510981"