Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine

Link to closed and archived RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?

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(The heading above is a link to the archived RFC as it is significant and I'm assuming this will be discussed more while not cluttering the talk page with a 29 page discussion Phiarc (talk) 08:07, 7 March 2022 (UTC))

Same link: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox? --N8_wilson 12:19, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Refugees section - forced relocation

The text in the refugees section currently says:

Thousands of refugees arriving in Russia appeared to have been forcibly relocated using 'filtration centers', evoking the memory of Soviet era population transfers and prior Russian use of such centers in the Chechen War of Independence to suppress evidence of war crimes. As of 8 April, Russia evacuated approximately 121,000 Mariupol residents to Russia, with some allegedly having been sent to work there. RIA Novosti and Ukrainian officials stated that thousands were dispatched to various filtration centers in both Russian and Russian-occupied Ukrainian cities, from which people were redirected to economically depressed regions of Russia.

References

A great deal of this should be "Ukrainian accuses" rather than WP:VOICE, while other parts don't appear to be in the sources/and or are editorialising (covering war crimes?). I can't read many of the Ru and Ukr sources so cannot fix. A similar text was copied to the Refugee crisis page, but much of it removed as WP:OR while other parts were altereed to Ukr claims. Pincrete (talk) 07:28, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Pincrete, thank you for sharing your point of view. However, changing the article to "Ukrainian accuses" doesn't seem to resolve the issue and seems to violate WP:VOICE. Perhaps in place of "Ukrainian accuses" we could use "it has been reported" which takes a neutral point of view in place of using the word "accuses" which is a lot more polarizing. This issue is difficult because there are a lot of strong opinions on both sides of this issue, it is an ongoing current event and it is polarizing. However, I believe we need to take a neutral approach in our editing. I would appreciate your thoughts on this issue. Jurisdicta (talk) 17:45, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

No objection to "has been reported", "Ukraine accuses", was merely meant to make the point that at present it is almost impossible for any news source to verify many of these claims. Pincrete (talk) 10:52, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Don't you think these are refugee camps? Why are all these sources non English, and the two that there are are BBC and CNN. They have not exactly demonstrated themselves as the most honest recently or in the past. Ahm1453 (talk) 22:42, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

supporting country ?

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In the table of the parties to the conflict there is Belarus as a supporting country, should the countries providing material support, including military support to Ukraine, not be included ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.111.119.54 (talk) 12:36, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

sign your posts with four consecutive tildas ( ~ ) 50.111.30.135 (talk) 19:48, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal above, all countries provividing weapons to Ukraine should be considered as supporting countries --93.42.36.160 (talk) 17:07, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

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Need to include in the right square of the article the contries that are supporting Ukraine

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Need to include in the right square of the article the contries that are supporting Ukraine, like is put in all other wikipedia pages on wars and conflicts. There are lots of them that are sending weapons, instructors, food, rations, blocking russian sales, etc. All of this is publicly known, verified by press reports of both sides of the conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.188.140.133 (talk) 13:26, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

If you mean the list of combatants, only those parties actually using weapons/fighting are listed. This has been discussed many times already.50.111.30.135 (talk) 19:46, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

That is not true. We put the list of supporting countries in the "Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine" article and there are plenty of other precedents Please note that we clearly label "Supported by:".

I think it's time to put it here too: 1) the Western support with weapons is substantial (especially as heavy weapons are now being supplied); 2) it is notable (WP:N) and there are plenty of WP:RS about the subject. Mindaur (talk) 20:25, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I support adding them as well. Super Ψ Dro 21:17, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

"Supported by" is included under the belligerents section of many wars. See Nigerian Civil War for a clear example. The page for the Syrian civil war also includes this information. Not including it here is strange. 86.22.31.94 (talk) 21:53, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree, countries that provide full diplomatic support or send heavy weapons must be in the list. If not, the info is biased. 190.188.140.133 (talk) 19:01, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

See #Link to closed and archived RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?. The consensus was that countries supplying material or diplomatic support to Ukraine did not meet the threshold to be included in the infobox as "supported by", whereas, the direct access for conduct of the invasion provided by Belarus crossed this threshold. Countries supporting Ukraine is discussed at 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Foreign military involvement and 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Sanctions and ramifications. There is too much detail for this to be "summarised" and consequently, its inclusion in the infobox would fail WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:31, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

This is clearly inconsistent with a wide variety of other Wikipedia articles on wars, and additionally whether the countries that would be in the infobox support Ukraine with lethal or non-lethal aid could be disclosed using parentheses. 2601:18F:681:7850:8068:AF36:22CF:56CB (talk) 04:19, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

It is nonetheless the consensus here, arrived at after extensive discussions. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a mandate. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:58, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

That is a dated discussion and a new consensus can overturn it. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:57, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

It is, but the discussion needs to be aware of the status quo and how the status quo was arrived at. Further, since it was the result of an RfC, any proposal to overturn the consensus should probably be made as an RfC. Cinderella157 (talk) 06:10, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Super Dromaeosaurus, Slatersteven, Cinderella157, Cinderella157: So, do we have a consensus on adding "Supported by" for Ukraine? The Western military support for Ukraine has ramped up to the point where it's becoming a game-changer [1][2]. Or, any volunteers to start RfC? --Mindaur (talk) 15:21, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

I have no issue with including it. It helps the reader to understand just how isolated Russia is. Slatersteven (talk) 15:59, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

I also support including it, specially now per the two citations provided by Mindaur. Super Ψ Dro 16:17, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Super Dromaeosaurus, Slatersteven, Cinderella157, Cinderella157, Viewsridge: I created an RfC below. Somebody should close all other sections as it's getting indeed confusing. Mindaur (talk) 21:31, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No fly zone

Should we change "NATO and its member states also refused to send troops into Ukraine as this would risk a larger-scale war,[353][354] a decision which some experts have labeled as a policy of appeasement" to "NATO and its member states also refused to send troops into Ukraine , or to establish a no fly-zone, as this would risk a larger-scale war,[353][354] a decision which some experts have labeled as a policy of appeasement.", as it is sourced already. Slatersteven (talk) 13:45, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

+1. Reason: The "no-fly zone" request is prominently in the first sentence at Government and intergovernmental reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Ukraine, so mentioning it here is good. --User:Haraldmmueller 14:11, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

+1. I agree with Harald's reasoning. UlyssorZebra (talk) 14:19, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

'No boots on the ground' and 'no planes in the air' is the consistent policy adopted throughout the invasion by supporting foreign governments. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:08, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I'll give till tomorrow if there are no obejcti0js I will make the change. Slatersteven (talk) 10:23, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Has tomorrow come yet? EEng 16:23, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Its been done. Slatersteven (talk) 16:28, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Foreign support of Ukraine

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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It is absolute nonsense that we still have only Ukraine in the box. There is a massive ammount of foreing help coming from the west, both weapons and military intelligence. We should vote for this issue again, or change all the infoboxes of other conflicts. --Novis-M (talk) 07:54, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

The section you are apparently referencing in the infobox is called "Belligerents". The definition of a belligerent according to Merriam-Webster is "belonging to or recognized as a state at war and protected by and subject to the laws of war". From what reliable sources tell us, the nations at war are Russia and Ukraine, which also include pro-Russian separatists, Donetsk PR and Luhansk PR, along with support from Belarus (from which Russia invaded northern Ukraine). Nythar (talk) 08:41, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

The publicly sending of weapons, secured from the governments of countries is clearly military support. If Belarus let russian troops to staged and cross the border but no intervened with it´s own military, is at the same level at western countries that deplete their own arsenals to transfer hot weapons to be used by Ukraine.

The list if only indicates "suport" to Belarus, is far away from the real word. 190.188.140.133 (talk) 19:05, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

No. Allowing a state to use your territory for a war of aggression is an illegal act of international aggression, according to the UN’s definition. Allowing weapons transfers by commercial sale or donation is not, whether a party is at war or not. —Michael Z. 04:07, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Please refer to Frequently Asked Questions #2: "Can you add X country to the infobox because it is sending weapons to Ukraine?" Or the discussion here The topic has already been discussed numerous times. 191.177.204.73 (talk) 14:13, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Should we add a "Supported by" section to the Ukrainian side? Looking at Spanish Civil War I see that we include countries like Mexico in that. BilledMammal (talk) 22:15, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

While it is true the Spanish Civil War article has "Supported By" in its Belligerent section, current consensus on this article is to not include other nations in there. See Wikipedia:Consensus. Nythar (talk) 01:09, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Why is Chechnya not listed under the belligerents?

They were sent to Ukraine by order of their president, so they clearly should be listed. 87.50.178.158 (talk) 20:52, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Chechnya isn't an independent state or breakaway region like the DPR and LPR; the Chechen Republic is a constituent part of the Russian Federation. Guettarda (talk) 21:10, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

As per Guettarda, also discussed once more before. EkoGraf (talk) 22:11, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Chechnya is not an independent state. It would be like complaining that Texas is not listed as a belligerent in a US war. Ahm1453 (talk) 22:35, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Or Canada. EEng 16:24, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

China's Nuclear Guarantee

The introduction mentions the Budapest memorandum, which is potentially pertinent to the section on the use of low-yield nuclear weapons - i.e. the potential use of "tactical" nukes which is currently getting press coverage.

What is not mentioned on this page is the Dec 2013 guarantee which China provided, as reported by the WSJ, the pertinent text of which seems to be: "China pledges unconditionally not to use or threaten to use nuclear weapons against the nuclear-free Ukraine and China further pledges to provide Ukraine nuclear security guarantee when Ukraine encounters an invasion involving nuclear weapons or Ukraine is under threat of a nuclear invasion,”. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.169.14.20 (talk) 11:22, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

That's a somewhat dated newspaper link you are presenting. China's position at present seems to be to decline making ciritical statements about the Russian invasion. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:15, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Start date should be February 22, 2022

According to the article introduction, this is the day the Duma authorized military action against Ukraine and when Russia openly sent troops into the DPR and LPR. Both are and were internationally recognized as Ukrainian territory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8001:1B46:84AF:2076:510A:1837:33CF (talk) 11:43, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

On 24 February, Putin announced that he had made the decision to launch a "special military operation" in eastern Ukraine. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:13, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Apparently false claims about Ukrainian comments regarding Transnistria.

The article claims, that On 27 April, Ukraine stated it could "take control" of Transnistria should the Moldovan government request.. As source, it gives an article from the 23rd of April in which neither Transnistria, nor Moldova are even mentioned. This needs to be fixed as soon as possible, but I'm not allowed to edit the article.Liekveel (talk) 12:24, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Not a false claim. I simply forgot to add the source. The source that you mentioned has nothing to do with it - it refers to the previous sentence. Simply clumsly editing on my part.

YantarCoast (talk) 12:49, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

I've just added the most recent reports on Transnitria involving explosions destroying broadast towers there. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:28, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Russian military occupation articles

Alerting editors that, as of this note, four of these articles have been created. Improvement is needed for all of them, and if needed, they should be linked into this main article’s text. I will be creating more for the other affected Oblasts, but for now, these 4 exist.

• Russian occupation of Kharkiv Oblast
• Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast
• Russian occupation of Sumy Oblast
• Russian occupation of Zaporizhzhia Oblast

Elijahandskip (talk) 16:05, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

They are now linked. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:22, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine

Should we add "Supported by" for Ukraine in the infobox to list the countries providing military aid? --Mindaur (talk) 21:29, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

• Comment WP:RFCNEUTRAL is a requirement, and it is not met here. Please reformat your opening statement to actually ask a question (and only that), not justify your position. BSMRD (talk) 22:13, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
• Comment WP:RFCNEUTRAL. The RFC needs to specify if the support is military aid, financial aid, humanitarian aid, etc, by type of aid. The most basic type of relation between friendly nations is the military alliance, followed by prior treaties and agreements, followed by favored nation status for trade. The RFC needs to specify if it is only interested in "Western military aid" or the other types of aid as well. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:03, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support' Why not, it shows just how isolated Russia is. It shows that even previously neutral nations now condemn them. Slatersteven (talk) 09:37, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

• Question Mzajac, in a thread above, you stated: No. Allowing a state to use your territory for a war of aggression is an illegal act of international aggression, according to the UN’s definition. Allowing weapons transfers by commercial sale or donation is not, whether a party is at war or not. Could you please provide your sourcing for this statement as it would seem very pertinent to this RfC. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:43, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

  @Cinderella157: Allowing the aggressor state to use your territory (i.e. be a "proxy") is illegal per United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3314; it also defined as aggression by the Rome Statute. Meanwhile, Article 51 of the UN Charter enshrines the right to self-defense, explicitly including the collective self-defence.

  However, I do not think these legal aspects are relevant to the RfC question. Mindaur (talk) 12:46, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

  UNGA Res. 29/3314, Definition of Aggression, Article 3:[3] “Any of the following acts, regardless of a declaration of war, shall, subject to and in accordance with the provisions of article 2, qualify as an act of aggression: . . . (f) The action of a State in allowing its territory, which it has placed at the disposal of another State, to be used by that other State for perpetrating an act of aggression against a third State.” —Michael Z. 14:55, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

  This illegal act of aggression goes beyond “supporting” aggression. Belarus ought to be listed as a belligerent. —Michael Z. 14:58, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

  Agree. Mindaur (talk) 16:17, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

• Follow-up Question: And what (if anything) is said as to countries supplying lethal military hardware specifically and more generally various other types of "support" (non lethal equipment, humanitarian aid or sanctions etc)? Cinderella157 (talk) 23:18, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

  What is said where? In the UN’s Definition of Aggression? Maybe you should read it over, but I don’t think it defines what belongs in “supported by” for the purpose of Wikipedia conflict infoboxes. It doesn’t even define who is a belligerent, only who is an aggressor, which I believe is self-evidently also a belligerent. —Michael Z. 01:31, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support adding "Supported by" for Ukraine in the infobox to list those providing military aid as per template established in other Wikipedia infoboxes on conflicts throughout history where arms were provided to a belligerent even though the providing country did not engage in the conflict directly, but was for the benefit of defeating the other belligerent. But do not list all 30 countries listed at List of foreign aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War, because that list includes those who have "pledged" to provide aid, but haven't actually yet provided it. Only those who have already been confirmed to have provided should be listed under "Supported by". EkoGraf (talk) 12:29, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
• Support, but don't add NATO and the EU, add the individual countries confirmed to have delivered weapons instead. Super Ψ Dro 13:25, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose for three reasons. (a) They only provide hardware. Of course they could provide more, like modern aircraft staffed by contractors or volunteers, but they did not do even that. (b) That would be 40+ countries, they would clog the infobox. (c) That would be an implicit misinformation along the line of Russian propaganda, i.e. the false claim about "proxy conflict". My very best wishes (talk) 14:04, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

  @My very best wishes: A few counter-points:

  • Regarding (a) and "only hardware": Ukrainian Armed Forces demonstrated incredible will to fight, resilience and professionalism. However, it is evident that the initial supply of weapons (and intelligence) by the West played a significant role in enabling the resistance. It is now entering another phase, where the West have begun supplying heavy weapons (US organized conference at the Ramstein Air Base with 40 countries participating signifies that) and that will have a major implications in Ukraine's ability to not only resist but potentially launch counter-offensives.
  • Re (b): We don't need to list all countries; I propose to include only the main contributors, including the EU and NATO and then add an interlink for other states.
  • Re (c): It doesn't matter; we make decisions based on WP:RS, WP:DUE, WP:N, etc. Russian disinformation is already beyond delusional anyway.

  -- Mindaur (talk) 14:31, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

(a) yes, sure, the delivery of weapons makes a lot of difference in all wars, but it does not warrant including the suppliers as "supporting countries" of field "belligerents". (b) OK, this is a good solution, but that should not appear in the field of "belligerents"; (c) I am saying that our infobox would be POV and as such would misled the reader in context of the currently happening misinformation. My very best wishes (talk) 15:27, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

It's not POV, it's just stating the obvious reality. Some people lock themselves on the fact that Ukraine doesn't have formal allies (a binding treaty) or that NATO doesn't send troops to defend it. However, in that case these countries would unequivocally be belligerent. We are talking about support here (specifically, the porposal is about military aid): over 100 pieces of heavy artillery, tanks, missiles, etc -- it's exactly that, it's material, it's substantial, it's major. Why ignore that? -- Mindaur (talk) 16:11, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

We are not ignoring it; there is a section about it on the page. However, such assistance is difficult to properly summarize in the lead, see comments just below. Do we include Turkey? This is a slippery slope. Should we include France and Germany as suppliers for Russia [4]? My very best wishes (talk) 16:57, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Is My very best wishes stating that it would be better to include the explanation just provided about 'only provide hardware' as a separate section in the article. That Ukraine has no formal allies since Ukraine is not a part of NATO or the EU? ErnestKrause (talk) 14:52, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

• Comment There is a wide range of things that could be considered support, the distinctions carry significant political weight, and have determined whether they cross certain parties’ red lines. For example:
  1. Belarus has committed aggression against Ukraine, according to the UN definition, by allowing aggression against Ukraine from its territory, including missile attacks and military incursion. (It should be listed as a belligerent, not a supporter.)
  2. Before the open invasion on February 22/24, there was a distinction between defensive and other lethal aid. This seems to be no longer discussed since.
  3. There is a distinction between lethal and non-lethal military aid, e.g., weapons versus body armour, military hospitals, training, intelligence.
  4. There is a distinction between military aid, that is gifts or grants, and commercial sales. Even in peacetime commercial sales of arms normally require political approval.
  5. Relevant to that, there is the question of permission by originating states in weapons transfers. E.g., Germany prevented the transfer by Czechia and the Netherlands of armoured vehicles to Ukraine because they had historically come from Germany, citing the principal of not providing weapons to a conflict. Germany has dropped this restriction, and now looks to be ready to start sending its own armoured vehicles and weapons.
  6. There is a distinction between military aid and humanitarian aid.
  7. There are states participating in sanctions against one side or the other.
  8. There are states, organizations, and individuals respecting sanctions out of fear of getting hit by secondary sanctions, e.g., some Chinese banks and businesses refusing to do business in the Russian Federation for fear of getting sanctioned for supporting sanctioned entities, because they value their business in the West.

  We need to set a threshold as to what constitutes “support.” I am not sure if, for example, Turkey is a military supporter because it sells Ukraine the dramatically useful Bayraktar TB2 drones, because politically has tried to play the role of mediator. Similarly, France, Germany, and other EU states seem to have provided more military technology to the Russian Federation than to Ukraine up to this point (at least to 2020).[5] —Michael Z. 15:30, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

  I'd stick with what we did for the "Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine" article, primarily focusing on lethal military aid; the label can be "Arms suppliers". Mindaur (talk) 16:15, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

  Do you mean giving Ukraine lethal weapons as aid, including only defensive lethal weapons, but not selling Ukraine lethal weapons commercially? So, not giving Ukraine unarmed armoured vehicles, not giving it spare parts to bring jet fighters back into service, not giving it counterbattery radar, night-vision devices, reconnaissance drones, training, or military intelligence (which may include enemy plans and locations of enemy units, enabling their destruction).

  Seems reasonable. But then the article should make clear how “supported by” is defined. Then that is “arms donators” or equivalent? —Michael Z. 01:41, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose For all the reasons offered by My very best wishes. It is also not clear what is proposed, but regardless, various kinds of aid, including sanctions, financial, humanitarian and commercial and 'gifted/lend-lease' harware, so it would be difficult to regulate this in a coherent fashion. I believe a considerable amount of Ukr hardware is actually inherited from Soviet Union days, so we would thus have the absurdity of Ukr being aided by Russia (and vice versa?). The whole subject is better handled in text or in a related article. Pincrete (talk) 15:44, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
• Comment In response to arguments by editors that arms suppliers do not qualify as support for Ukraine, but Belarus should be listed as in support of Russia by aiding the "aggression" against Ukraine... I would quote the president of the United States who himself said just today that they are aiding Ukraine in its defense or the UK ministers from the past few days that the intent is to even push out Russia out of Crimea and diminish its military. So, I think the intent is quite clear. Belarus in support of Russia by providing the staging ground, most NATO/EU countries in support of Ukraine by providing arms and heavy equipment since the start of the invasion. Further, even though I don't object to listing Belarus in support of Russia in the infobox, there is more of an argument to list Western support of Ukraine, which is quite notable. And I would once again remind that we have added "Supported by" countries who provided arms only in various conflicts throughout the last century in our articles. Finally, any previous arms provided by France, Germany etc to Russia or Ukraine before the invasion is unrelated to why they are providing it NOW (intent). EkoGraf (talk) 16:36, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose The weapons provided to Ukraine during the invasion still play a negligible role in the conflict. For example, the recent supply of 155mm artillery only adds 1% more to Ukraine's current artillery inventory. Furthermore adding countries such as the U.S. U.K. and other European nations to the infobox would play into the Kremlin rhetoric that Russia is fighting with the west, instead of with Ukraine. Viewsridge (talk) 17:51, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
  • "The weapons provided to Ukraine during the invasion still play a negligible role in the conflict." In the expressed opinion of the US President their arms support was what made the Russian military withdraw from Kyiv. EkoGraf (talk) 18:04, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

  "Negligible role in the conflict" - that is simply not true. I could write an essay on this (incl. why 155 mm is significant in several ways and "1% more" is nonsense), but we would be delving deep into off-topic and discussions on military capabilities. Let's stick with WP:RS on WP:DUE/WP:N judgement; I already provided multiple sources: [6][7][8][9][10][11][12]. Mindaur (talk) 18:10, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

  I don’t think the magnitude of the effect is key at all. Whether the USA supports with $33B in aid or a tiny postage-stamp country supports with the $6.99 and a box of first aid kits that it can scrounge up, it is still a concrete commitment to support (however we define it).

  But you are right that the wording must give the right impression about and define exactly what “supported by” really means (regardless of the number of states listed). —Michael Z. 18:46, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose for same reasons as last time, which include content problems, MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE issues, and mobile accessibility issues. I'm amenable to a German Wikipedia-like solution, where we add "(supported with foreign aid from other states)". ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:59, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Would accept the German-like solution. EkoGraf (talk) 18:04, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

• Comment US Congress passed the Ukraine Democracy Defense Lend-Lease Act of 2022: [13] [14]. It again illustrates the increasing scale of support for Ukraine. The revival of Lend-Lease is historic. --Mindaur (talk) 10:16, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Support

I rely on past Wikipedia articles as historical precedent on how things are normally done on Wikipedia without political motives changing.

Wikipedia articles that show weapon and other forms of suppliers under "supported by" Iran–Iraq War, Yom Kippur War, Nigerian Civil War, Vietnam War, Soviet–Afghan War

NATO is not only providing weapons but also electronic, recon and intelligence support.

ELINT is electronic intelligence and the US claimed they were doing it when the Moskva was sunk: https://www.nsa.gov/portals/75/documents/about/cryptologic-heritage/historical-figures-publications/publications/misc/elint.pdf

I think that we shouldn't make an exception to this article because it might not align with our political agendas or point of view. Ahm1453 (talk) 11:09, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Mainly per U|My very best wishes. There is clearly a big distinction between the support offered by Belarus which crosses a clear line and the assistance provided by countries to assist Ukraine or oppose Russia. There is also nuance to the type of assistance that cannot be simply captured in an infobox. An abbreviated listing would be misleading and a detailed listing would be contrary to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, which is to be a summary of key points - detail ≠ summary. The infobox is an adjunct to the lead, not a replacement and the article should not be written in the infobox. In consequence, WP:NOTEVERYTHING therefore particularly applies to an infobox. A bloated infobox also causes WP:ACCESSIBILITY issues - particularly for mobile users. The necessary detail is summarised in the lead and presented in the body of the article. That is sufficient and best meets our obligations under WP:P&G (IMO). There are some arguments here, that we need to show the support for Ukraine. While well intended, these are not NEAUTRAL. WP needs to be dispassionate and apartisan - writing at arm's length from the subject. There are also arguments the WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a mandate. The argument does not consider the individual cases and why it may or why it may not be appropriate in one case but not another - it is a broad-brush assertion. More particularly, it does not consider whether this "otherstuff is "best practice". Few parent articles for modern-era conflicts since World War II have reached GA status or better (to my knowledge) - certainly neither the Korean War nor the Vietnam War. But ultimately, "best practice" goes back to conformity with WP:P&G (such as WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE). Unless one can show that this "otherstuff" is "best practice" (and in my observation it isn't) and the circumstances are similar, then an argument that appeals to "otherstuff" is unsound. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:49, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

• Current Events. There is an emerging consensus in news sources currently in motion that the correct reference might be to the USA with its 40 Allied nations forming a coalition to provide economic support along with military supplies and refitting to Ukraine for its battle with Russia here in "US and allies gather at Ramstein to discuss how to help Ukraine defeat Russia’s ‘unjust invasion’". The link to one of the latest articles is in "Stars and Stripes" under the title I have just quoted, BY JOHN VANDIVER AND JENNIFER H. SVAN • STARS AND STRIPES • APRIL 26, 2022. Link here: [15]. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

• Comment I agree with using the German Wikipedia solution of adding "(supported with foreign aid from other states)".

- I get that adding NATO etc. as belligerents is the Russian narrative, and I'm as pro-Ukraine as anyone, but realistically, the West is supporting Ukraine, and IMO it's WP:ADVOCACY not to have something about the West's support in the infobox. A link to List of foreign aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War is the solution IMO. Shimbo (talk) 18:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support' but only to list those states that provide direct lethal military aid. No political support and such things. Also avoid using supranational bodies like EU or NATO since support for Ukraine differ in scope and type from state and state.Mr.User200 (talk) 18:40, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

  The EU as an organization has also provided military support directly.[16] I don’t think NATO has to date. —Michael Z. 18:51, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Per My very best wishes. Belligerents should only list belligerents; there's far too many fine gradations of what 'support' can mean that will be flattened by a list of countries. --RaiderAspect (talk) 07:53, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
• Support Agree with Ahm1453 and Mindaur in general, also specifically because "the United States military" is now training "Ukrainian troops" and there's been "a stark shift from Western support for Ukraine [...] focused now on delivering heavy weaponry and not only defensive system." If on the off-chance listing becomes too long, we can partially shorten or link. CurryCity (talk) 04:18, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
• Support List the individual countries who have provided lethal military support to Ukraine. That would maintain a neutral point of view--Waters.Justin (talk) 02:06, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

References

War spreading

After many ukrainian or supposed false flag attacks on Russian territory, should we add Russia/names of western Russian regions into the location of the infobox? We should also add transnistria as a spillover in the infobox after the past few attacks there. Wikiman92783 (talk) 13:00, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, as long as RS say they are part of the conflict and not (for examp[le) accidents. Slatersteven (talk) 13:08, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Don't add Transnistria yet. It's clear it's a Russian false-flag attack, but it seems too much to just call it like spillover this soon. Super Ψ Dro 13:23, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Prisoners of war

I would suggest to remove the opening sentence: "Over a thousand prisoners of war have been captured", as by now, by combining the claims of both sides (see the POW section in Casualties of the Russo-Ukrainian War), the prisoners are supposedly a few thousands. --Potionkin (talk) 15:18, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

War/invasion

Change invasion to war 2A01:E0A:A7E:E860:584A:2A5F:88EF:7F2C (talk) 17:22, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

We have an article on the wider war, this is about this specific operation/invasion. Slatersteven (talk) 17:24, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

That article is a large bunch of OR and an issue of design-by-committee, where it gradually morphed from an article on the 2014 annexation of Crimea, to an article basically on Ukraine and Russia's interactions since 2014. It's most obvious in the lead, which focuses on 2014 events, then jumps to 2019 providing just one sentence on current status, and then discusses the 2022 invasion. It labels 2015-2022 as a "frozen conflict phase (2015-2022)". In reality, it is talking about two disparate issues that occurred in 2014 and then in 2022, and decided to pop them all into one article under an OR heading of "Russo-Ukrainian War", solidified by a low-participation no-sources RM. That article has no clear scope.

The IP editor's suggestion is fair. I think the COMMONNAME is still invasion, but where sources refer to a war, they're referring to this 2022 event. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:16, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

I think invasion is fair to use because it really is in every way an invasion. Wikipedia lists United States invasion of Afghanistan and 2003 invasion of Iraq as invasions, not Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom. Ahm1453 (talk) 11:11, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Issue at Russo-Ukrainian War

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War § The state of this article. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:08, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

The map should respect that Transnistria= Moldovan territory illegally occupied by Russia

The neutral point of view is clearly violated because in truth Transnistria is Moldovan territory illegally occupied by Russia. This is a fact, not an opinion. The map does not respect this, therefore I suggest changing this so that the neutral point of view is not violated. 2A02:810C:4CBF:E144:396C:BBA9:BB1F:9851 (talk) 08:52, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

In what way? Slatersteven (talk) 08:58, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Refer to wikipedia's page on Transnistria conflict. Ahm1453 (talk) 11:13, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Edit request

Please add russia or the western regions recently bombed into the infobox as ukraine occasionally bombs them now Wikiman92783 (talk) 12:38, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

You can make an edit request using {{edit extended-protected}} if you wish. That'll put it in the list of requested edits. ★Ama ^{TALK CONTRIBS} 20:11, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Actually, use of edit-request templates on a page like this is counterproductive. All that does is summon some random patroller, unfamiliar with the article, who will ritually tell the requester to get consensus first. On a page with many active watchers, simply stating what's requested or proposed, as the OP has done, is better; either someone will do it immediately, or discussion will ensue. EEng 16:15, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Size split

At 85kb of readable prose, this article is already in "probably should be split" territory, and heading towards "almost certainly should be split". We should start a discussion to see in what manner this article should be split, since as time goes on, and the war goes on, it's likely to continue getting bigger. One possibility is the sections "First phase..." and "Casualties...", each of which is around 45kb (raw), and which could be summarized, with content moved into a new article. See WP:SIZESPLIT. Mathglot (talk) 08:28, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

In most cases, sections of the article already have child articles that align to the sections (more or less). It is more a case of now being ruthless in culling and more effectively summarising detail best covered in the child articles. In the case of War crimes and crimes against humanity, that subsection was culled by replacing it with the lead at War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. There was a discussion leading to this which was pretty smooth and the lead from the child article dovetailed very neatly into this article. Reasonably, the whole section, 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Legal implications could have been replaced except that: War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine did not cover all of the content in the man section (even though it might reasonably do so; and, there are other daughter articles (such as Legality of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine that don't follow a clear hierarchy. I think that this experience indicates a course of action, addressing sections or subsections here as a concerted plan for each section or subsection. It should draw on why that experience worked and how it could be improved upon. It would require a mutually aligned concerted effort between an identified section/subsection and the primary child page. It would require cross-alignment from here to there; a good succinct lead; and, sourcing in that lead, even though that is not a normal requirement of a lead. My thoughts, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:30, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

The other approach for that section would be to first move or split the material to the sibling pages which you mention. Then you would have more room to bulk down that section to a short summary alone, with all redirects moved to the top of the section similar to what Boud and elinruby did for the Media section and other sections previously. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:07, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

War crimes, lead section and article. Informal request for comments

As this article's section on war crimes used to be identical to the lead section of War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, I'd welcome if all interested editors could help us reach a consensus (or at least an orderly discussion) on that article's talk page. We are reaching the brink of another edit war there. The main controversial changes recently made to the lead section of that article are the following ones:

• Removed from the lead any references to mistreatment of marauders and pro-Russian supporters: The Monitoring Mission has also expressed concern about reports and videos of ill-treatment, torture, and public humiliation of civilians and prisoners of war in territory controlled by the Government of Ukraine: alleged marauders, bootleggers, pro-Russian supporters and curfew violators have been publicly humiliated by police officers and members of the territorial defence...; plus, removed this section on the same topic from the article.

• Removed from the lead any references to torture and killing of Russian prisoners of war (POW) (... and Russian prisoners of war have allegedly been abused, exposed to public curiosity, tortured, and subjected to summary execution.) and replaced them with references to allegations of ill-treatment of Russian POW (The Monitoring Mission has also expressed concern about videos and allegations of ill-treatment of Russian prisoners of war in territory controlled by the Government of Ukraine.).

• Added to the lead Ukrainian prisoners of war have also been abused, exposed to public curiosity, tortured, and subjected to summary execution.

• Added to the lead Human rights organizations have also accused Russian troops of using mass rape as a "weapon of war", possibly with tacit approval from their superiors. In March 2022 the UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine stressed the heightened risks of sexual violence and the risk of under-reporting by victims in the country. After Russian withdrawal from areas north of Kyiv, according to The Guardian, there was a "mounting body of evidence" of rape, torture and summary killings by Russian forces inflicted upon Ukrainian civilians, including gang-rapes committed at gunpoint and rapes committed in front of children

• Removed from the article any references to allegations by Russia over Ukraine using citizens as human shields.

You can confront this old version (11:19, 26 April 2022) with this more recent one (00:43, 30 April 2022). This is the diff between the two versions. These changes were made by User:Volunteer Marek and User:Shadybabs against the opposition of User:Ilenart626 and myself. As the latter editors have been repeatedly accused of misrepresenting facts to push a POV, I disengage and leave it to all interested editors to restore the balance or find a new one on the article. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:01, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

You are still listed by Wikitools as #9 for authorship of this article out of over 1000 editors of the page. What do you state by using the word 'disengage'? Does it mean no more editing on the main page or no more editing on the Talk page here? User:Cinderella in the section directly above seems to have some similar comments on the article. Is that a 'disengage' in the narrow sense or the broad sense of the phase? ErnestKrause (talk) 14:03, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

By "disengage" I only meant that I'm abandoning an editorial conflict that has become unpleasant to me. I've invited you to join that discussion but I haven't implied anything about my future editing - although perhaps the time has come for me to take a break from War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Broader participation is necessary: 2 editors against 2 editors is not a majority, let alone a consensus, and that article is too important to be neglected (apart from the fact that, as User:Cindarella157 rightly pointed out here above, we'd achieved some sort of coordination between the main article's and that article's editing processes). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:58, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

• Well, that was definitely an improvement by users you complain about. They fixed the bias and made this text more focused on more significant war crimes, such as rapes, etc.My very best wishes (talk) 22:42, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Much bias?

I notice that everything that happened to Russians is "alleged" according to you. While everything that happened to Ukrainians is fact. Despite the fact that there are video and photographic evidence that prove Ukrainian guilty and also Russian guilt atleast prima facie. Ahm1453 (talk) 23:50, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Much bias? 2.0

Removal of Russian allegations, removal of any evidence suggesting that Ukraine is also committing war crimes. Remember Wikipedia is NOT a PROPAGANDA source for Ukraine. Ahm1453 (talk) 23:55, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 April 2022

Ukrainian soldier sends orthinological signs to Russian sailors well versed in the ways of the sea.

typo: prupose → purpose 82.132.185.14 (talk) 23:08, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Could you point out where specifically? Definitely makes it easier for editors with permissions to implement your request. Thanks. ★Ama ^{TALK CONTRIBS} 23:22, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

This section: 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Peace talks: Second phase of invasion (8 April to present). 82.132.185.14 (talk) 23:28, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

tbh you could have very easily found it yourself using the CTRL+F function in your browser, or Wikipedia's own "find and replace" tool. 82.132.185.14 (talk) 23:29, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

To be honest you could've read the instructions on the template telling you to specify where it is... It's not that I don't know how or where to find it, it's that I'm advising you, friendly at first and assuming good faith, to include it in your request so others don't have to do something you should've done in the first place. I'll re-open the edit request so someone can implement it. ★Ama ^{TALK CONTRIBS} 23:33, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

No, the instructions don't say to specify where it is, only that the request needs to be in a specific "change x to y" format. There's only one instance of the misspelling, so there was no ambiguity in my request (and if there were more than one you'd want to fix them anyway). If you're not even familiar with the most basic of tools then you really need a new hobby. 82.132.185.14 (talk) 23:39, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Alright man good luck finding someone who'll change your edit requests, have a good day. Unsubscribed and off my watchlist! ★Ama ^{TALK CONTRIBS} 23:50, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Ama was trying to assist. This image is currently used on the Dutch Interwiki version of this article. Should it be used in the English version of this article? ErnestKrause (talk) 00:12, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Belarus is a belligerent, continued

The previous discussion (#Belarus is a belligerent) was closed after a brief period with reference to an unnamed dictionary, and with a suggestion to start a new discussion with sources. So below are some articles by legal scholars. @Seryo93, ErnestKrause, EkoGraf, ProcrastinatingReader, Ahm1453, My very best wishes, and Cinderella157:

As pointed out above, the OSCE’s legal advice determined that by not sending forces into Ukraine Belarus is not a direct party to the international armed conflict, and therefore is not liable for Russian violations of international human-rights law in Ukraine.[17][18] The OSCE’s report also included Ukraine’s response which points to the UN’s definition of aggression.

But at the same time, by facilitating Russia’s war and allowing unlawful invasion and direct attacks into Ukraine directly from its territory and airspace it bears state responsibility by violating the UN Charter’s Ch. I, Art. 2(4) prohibition on the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state,[19][20] and is also guilty of aggression, according to the UN’s definition (and Ukraine’s response on the latter point was valid).[21][22]

I’ll reiterate Oxford dictionaries’ definition of a “belligerent,” verbatim: “Engaged in a war or conflict, as recognized by international law.”[23] There is no more definitive legal source on war than the UN Charter’s article 2(4).

Belarus is guilty of unlawful use of force or threat of force and international aggression in this war against Ukraine. If we want to clarify what acts it did and did not commit, that is fine and right. But it should be listed as a belligerent for its illegal participation in use of force and aggression. —Michael Z. 18:50, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

What dictionaries and UN documents define as being a "belligerent" is entirely irrelevant, per WP:SYNTH, if there is no source specifically saying "Belarus meets this definition". The only sources above which are not dictionaries or legal definitions are [24] (which states that "However, the lack of neutrality does not mean participation in an armed conflict."), [25] (which is a summary of the previous) and [26] (which is one person's opinion, and which does not use the term "belligerent" anyways). So these sources are very far from sufficient to support such an inclusion, no matter what the Oxford dictionary might say. Basing an assertion on whether something meets a given dictionary definition, without a reliable source explicitly saying it does meet such a definition, is a textbook example of WP:SYNTH, and matches very closely with the final example of that section. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:15, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

No. The term “belligerent” comes to us from a conventional label in a Wikipedia infobox. Its meaning to the editors and readers can only be determined by the template’s documentation, by broad consensus recorded in a discussion, or, failing that, by a dictionary definition.

By the way, if that is a hard requirement, I don’t see any sources that use the precise term “belligerent” for the Russian Federation, Donetsk People’s Republic, Luhansk People’s Republic, and Ukraine: so far their inclusion is also SYNTH. The OSCE source[27] that some are relying on and cited above states that the D/LNR are “proxies” and “are under overall control of Russia,” and, passim, implies they are not co-belligerents of Russia (direct quotation is “this would anyway also be the case if those ‘republics’ were actually independent States, as Russia claims, and simply co-belligerents of Russia”), as part of the same legal argument used to exclude Belarus. —Michael Z. 19:27, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Template documentation is not policy. WP:OR is. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:37, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I think you made the substantially the same argument in the previous discussion and the consensus was pretty clear. I don't think there's anything here that would change it. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:37, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. Furthermore, on non-belligerency: A non-belligerent State is allowed to deviate from the duties of abstention, prevention and impartiality and, this notwithstanding, is not regarded as a party to the conflict. For instance, a non-belligerent State can help a party to the conflict by channelling to it war material and other strategic supplies. It may also furnish logistic support, such as warship refuelling or repair, beyond the limits set forth by the 1907 Hague Convention No. XIII, or allowing belligerent aircraft to land on and take off from its territory, contrary to the rules of neutrality which require their internment. A formula encapsulating non-belligerency is that the non-belligerent is entitled to aid the belligerent, bar armed intervention at its side (emphasis mine). Pretty much the situation with Belarusian involvement in this conflict: it allows its territory to be used by the Russian military units involved in the hostilities, but doesn't send its own military in support of the Russian effort. Bests, Seryo93 (talk) 19:49, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Per RandomCanadian, ProcrastinatingReader and Seryo93, everything has already been said. Unless you can provide a source explicitly stating Belarus is directly participating in the conflict, anything else is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Also I don't think reopening the discussion one day after it was closed is really per WP guidelines. EkoGraf (talk) 20:12, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay, that is pretty specific, including resupply and landing. Excellent. But the quotation doesn’t include allowing direct cross-border invasion and cross-border firing attacks, both of which Belarus has facilitated. Does it get explicit about that? (Unfortunately, Google Books is not letting me view the content of that source.) —Michael Z. 21:35, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I do see that citations provide for aerial attack from a non-belligerent territory (essentially, "or allowing belligerent aircraft to <...> take off from its territory" is not much different from Belarusian allowance for Russia to send its forces to Ukraine from Belarusian territory), which, after all, is still an attack by belligerent force. Furthermore, "the non-belligerent is entitled to aid the belligerent, bar armed intervention at its side " still applies fully to Belarus. It avoids direct intervention by its own military, but assists Russia in other ways, including territorially. Seryo93 (talk) 22:14, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Have you seen any quotations that say that a state can allow cross-border invasion or shelling from its own territory by a belligerent and still remain a non-belligerent. This is still not covered by the sources mentioned. —Michael Z. 22:29, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

If it's not covered by the sources, then it fails WP:V, and doesn't get included. As simple as that. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:54, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Template:Infobox military conflict

Quote:

No need for a note, Wikipedia's guideline has been clearly defined Template:Infobox military conflict for well over a decade and Seryo93, ProcrastinatingReader and Ahm1453 have all said it quite well. EkoGraf (talk) 12:05, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

The topic was closed because there is really nothing to argue. The article is already Ukrainian biased in my opinion. It does not even mention any western nations as Supporting states.

I can under that this is an on going issue and people are personally affected by this conflict so I do not want to harm their feelings, but it is important to remember that Wikipedia is not a propaganda source.

Ahm1453 (talk) 23:40, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

• Well, according to Lukashenko, the Belarus army plays an active role by preventing any attack on Russian forces from the rear [28]. Furthermore, he claimed to intercept missiles sent by Ukrainian forces [29]. I think that does constitutes a direct involvement to the military campaign. So yes, a belligerent. I am not sure if Lukashenko was telling the truth. However, if that was true (the Ukrainian forces do seem to strike already Russian territory [30]), i.e. the Ukrainian forces were sending missiles, and Belorussian forces intercepted them, that immediately makes Belarus a belligerent. My very best wishes (talk) 01:38, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Legal status of Belarus

Mzajac has just added the narrative form of his Belarus edit into the Legality section of this article. At the same time, User:Cinderella is discussing size issues of this article in the new section above on this Talk page, and the possibility of moving those sections into their already existing sibling articles on Wikipedia. Would that work for all the editors involved here? ErnestKrause (talk) 21:06, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I've removed it; because it appears UNDUE in that specific section (there are plenty of sources discussing the issue of Russia's crime of aggression and of further war crimes; however including Belarus in that would be unwarranted in an article which is supposed to be a summary of the topic - of course, outside of the specific legal issues, mention of Belarus is appropriate in other places and in other contexts). No objection to this kind of content being split out to appropriate sub-pages where it can be discussed with sufficient depth and detail to allow for proper emphasis of the more significant elements. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:21, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian:, so you reverted my verbatim inclusion of conclusions from sources due to reasons: “A single opinion post, even by a PhD, is not enough to justify this kind of content in a Wikipedia article; per the WP:OR issues already explained at sufficient depth on talk page and also per WP:UNDUE,” which I do not understand. Other editors disputed the application of the term “belligerent,” which this does not address, and you closed the discussion as an uninvolved editor, asking for sources. So I found sources, and now you dispute these sources, including the ones previously used by advocates of opposing views, without any sources that contradict them. This is not right.

What I included is balanced and broadly and accurately represents sources without contradicting those that argued against labelling Belarus as a “belligerent” in the infobox.

Also, when reverting, please do the courtesy of using the “revert” function or pinging us in your edit summary. —Michael Z. 21:42, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

You are well aware of the issues with the sources, as I've explained to you very clearly above (19:15, 1 May 2022), and in the edit summary (opinion posts by a PhD are still opinion posts and should not be used to make claims in Wiki-voice). The point about UNDUE is self-explanatory (it brings undue weight to focus on Belarus in that particular section) and similarly also explained (21:21, 1 May 2022). The WP:ONUS is for you to get consensus for inclusion (or, as others have suggested, to include this material in sub-pages which can afford to cover the topic with more details). Me being previously uninvolved does not mean I have to stay uninvolved forever. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:14, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

War crimes and human rights violations

Evidence of Russian war atrocities and human rights violations, from forced removals of Ukrainians to Russia, to executions and tortures of Ukrainians in Bucha, Irpin and numerous other locations, to mass graves in Mariupol, Bucha and other locations, must be included. I am appalled that they are not and that they don't have their own section. 2604:2D80:A782:BC00:978:8BCA:17A1:1FFC (talk) 04:04, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

They have better than their own section, they have their own article. BSMRD (talk) 05:46, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

War crimes? What war crimes? Where are your sources, IP? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 06:21, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine not Anti-Semetic

Russia falsely accused Ukraine of being na*i. I just wanted someone to use this source, according to pew research statistically in 2019 only 11% of Ukrainians had negative views on Jews, while 83% had positive views. That is higher than most European countries. I added this help combat misinformation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahm1453 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Mearsheimer

Not a word about Mearsheimer's take on the conflict? 2001:B07:646B:4D36:FDE4:1A7B:6912:9FA0 (talk) 15:57, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

We do not mention all kinds of peoples take on it, why should we include his? Slatersteven (talk) 16:03, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Because it's opposite to most ad it has had quite a wide resonance.

That probably belongs to page Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis, not to this page. My very best wishes (talk) 16:09, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, good idea. Put it there. 93.45.56.11 (talk) 16:22, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

View that PDF and scroll down to the chart that shows most experts disagree with Mearsheimer. Maybe that’s why. Although he is an important scholar, his views on Ukraine do not represent the academic consensus. Russian propaganda has really been pushing Mearsheimer videos and interviews on social media because they serve its purposes when sound bites are presented without context. (But it counts on you not reading very much of that PDF, because Mearsheimer keeps repeating that the Russian Federation is a declining power that will keep getting weaker.)

Here’s a couple of critiques of Mearsheimer: [31][32]  —Michael Z. 16:48, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, just as they say, the article by Mearsheimer is full of contradictions, and he just repeats some "arguments" by Putin. Of course one could criticize Western countries (and especially Germany), but that would be not for expanding NATO, but for supporting in many ways the regime in Russia before the invasion. Putin is exactly same man as he was in 2000, and he was preparing this invasion since 2014 or possibly earlier. My very best wishes (talk) 16:59, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Potential NATO enlargement as a reaction/impact

One of the knock-on effects has been that NATO enlargement is on the agenda in a very big way in Finland and Sweden (see Finland–NATO relations for Finnish sources to choose from with some in English, and there's incidental stuff for Sweden there too, but probably better Swedish sources exist). Specifically, there's been a _massive_ shift in public opinion, and it's now being worked through in parliament in Finland, and, though neither country's officially come out and said as much yet, it looks like both countries will be submitting applications. I'm pretty sure this should be mentioned somewhere in the article-plex covering the war, but I can't quite figure out the best place to put it. Main article? Maybe marginally not noteworthy enough - but a short sentence might be a good amount of weight; even if it does go in to the main article, it should also go into one of the specific reactions articles. Government and intergovernmental reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine? Well, it's not governmental yet! Non-government reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine? Maybe - but I can't see any other examples of big public opinion shifts mentioned in there, and it's likely to become governmental in a few weeks. I also slightly quibble about this being a 'reaction' - if NATO does expand due to the war, it seems pretty impactful! Ideas, anyone? FrankSpheres (talk) 01:54, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Lets leave it until it enlarges. Slatersteven (talk) 10:58, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I think it's probably fair to not touch the top-level article until there's some kind of official movement. But I do also think that waiting until NATO officially expands will be way too late: the best guess is it's six to eighteen months away, depending on diplomacy and just how much of a hurry everyone's in but that they'll be accepted, and will have NATO-equivalent security guarantees in the meantime. This is a significant consequence even while it's in progress and readers will want to know about it, and we'd be doing them a disservice by leaving it out until the final accession is agreed months later. Maybe when they formally apply and begin negotiations will be the right moment to warrant a mention in the top-level article? (Still not sure whether it ultimately belongs in the 'Sanctions and ramifications' section or the 'Reactions' section, but, upon further reflection, I'm not sure that that division is very natural anyway. But that's a different discussion!)

I've gone and added a little description of the polling to Non-government reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine in a new section as a bold edit - the polling shift has already happened so there's not even a technical element of speculation there and, even after there's an official application to go in the governmental reactions article, that'll make sense. Like I said, even with a mention in the top-level article, this should be mentioned in the specific reactions article(s) because of summary style. FrankSpheres (talk) 16:48, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Putin ill

Vladimir Putin has been diagnosed with cancer and will soon be undergoing an operation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.210.117 (talk) 07:23, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

That is not a reliable source. In fact it's not even a source at all, just an unconfirmable broadcast on a news channel we don't even know exists Immanuelle 💗 (please tag me) 08:13, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

@Immanuelle: Please change the colours of your signature, it's nigh unreadable on a white background (which is what almost everyone has)

Googling yields a few reliable sources, ex. [33] or [34]; however both of these seem to cite rumours or unsubstantiated claims by a "former Russian intelligence officer"; so this would fall squarely under WP:NOTNEWS (being unconfirmed speculation). It doesn't help that the other sources I could find reporting this include the ever reliable Daily Fail or its cousin the Sun... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:33, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian do you feel this is better? I'll definitely change it more to make it prettier though Immanuelle 💗 (please tag me) 20:13, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

@Immanuelle: Yes, although the talk page link will need the same correction :) RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:16, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Whether this information should be included is also being discussed at Talk:Vladimir Putin. I would suggest trying to get consensus there before discussing whether it is appropriate for this article. QueenofBithynia (talk) 15:35, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Putin appears to be due for oncological surgery with 2-3 days recovery time in hospital according to multiple sources with his security council advisor Patrushev to tamporarily take office during the recovery time. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:27, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

References

2022 Perm factory explosion and fire

An article has been made for the 2022 Perm factory explosion and fire. The sources I can access allege that this might be sabotage, but since newsweek is pretty dubious, I don't want to put anything that isn't directly stated as fact into the article. I'd like some help in building the article. ☢️Plutonical☢️ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ 17:38, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Maybe the scope could be expanded to cover all sabotage attacks in Russia. I've heard a lot in the news, and in cities like St. Petersburg and even Moscow. Not sure if that event alone is notable by itself. Super Ψ Dro 17:40, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I would, but I really have no idea where to start, especially since the Perm explosion isn't stated to be sabotage by any source I can find. ☢️Plutonical☢️ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ 17:49, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

@Super Dromaeosaurus There is now a draft page for Draft:Sabotage during the 2022 Invasion of Ukraine. Hopefully this blooms into another good page shooting off from the main article. ☢️Plutonical☢️ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ 17:58, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

The fear with sabotage like this is suddenly everything that goes wrong in Russia is because of sabotage. Fire? Sabotage. Explosion? Sabotage. Bridge collapse? Sabotage. Methanol instead of ethanol in the cleaning product killing scores? Sabotage. I'm not saying that it's not occurring but I think stuff like this has the ability to quickly become a bit paranoid especially in a country that has had something of a reputation for strange and bizarre events. Alcibiades979 (talk) 22:37, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Append it to April 2022 Belgorod and Bryansk attacks, which looks like it’s being expanded and renamed (see its talk page) to include all suspicious attacks, fires, and explosions in the Russian Federation. —Michael Z. 23:43, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Request typo fix in quick info box

Quick post, shouldn't "Reports vary widely" be "reports vary Wildly?"--97.123.120.227 (talk) 02:00, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Spelling mistake

In the first sentence of the last paragraph in the 'Refugees' section, the word 'about' has been misspelled as 'aboit'. 04:37, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 May 2022

Belligerent is highly subjective 140.0.19.244 (talk) 08:38, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done No specific change suggested. — Czello 08:56, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

information that could be added

As for war crimes go Russia has been seen and filmed using cluster bombs which are illegal to use against civilians, and even placed many many land mines around bridges. Another incident is the train station bombing that killed 50-100 people or the mass graves found. lastly jailed 15-20K protesters banned Facebook IG and news stations for calling it a war/invasion and anyone could be jailed for calling it so for 15 years. 47.157.236.115 (talk) 09:03, 4 May 2022 (UTC)