Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War

Proposal: six-month moratorium on page moves

Following a succession of unproductive discussions about the page title, which have been circular wastes of time, I would like to propose a six-month moratorium on moving this page. Right now, in the thick of the conflict, any discussion about this page's title is unlikely to be productive or reach a satisfactory conclusion. We are awash with WP:BREAKING news coverage and laden with WP:RECENTISM, making any attempt to determine what the common name for the whole conflict an impossible task. Therefore, to avoid continuous disruption, and to give us some distance from these events before reconsidering the matter, I propose this six-month moratorium, similar to what has been done other ongoing conflict pages. Hopefully, in the intervening period, academic sources will come into play, and the historiography of this conflict, as carried out by RS, will become more apparent. RGloucester — ☎ 16:02, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm curious as to why you think it's disruptive, this is a discussion page, does it really matter whether the discussion is continued or not? It's not like the war is just going to stop, so naturally people will question this page which has existed in various forms since 2014. The fact that this article makes the topic so broad is arguably why many new editors are coming in here without knowledge of the full topic. I don't think that all of a sudden adding a 6 month wait period for discussing it will be very productive or do much for this article after those 6 months. Like, is this purely for your own personal gain to do this, because I don't see why discussion of page moves should just stop for any reason.

I know my previous arguments were flawed and acknowledged that, that's the point of a talk page? To yea or nix editing ideas? The defense of Wikipedia:Recentism and headlinese will run dry once the terms are accepted (or rejected) by scholars. That is likely to happen way before six months time.

The reason I even raised the question was due to the infobox fluctuating, at one point it includes all NATO members, at one point it includes Belarus, gets rid of it and returns it, estimates change sources from the US to Ukraine to Russia to the UN, it's not really clear which conflict this article is highlighting, it really seems like there is little focus. Of course Wikipedia:Recentism is going to be a thing, there was a major shift in power and intent made by the Russian Presidency, and a sudden involvement of many nations of NATO, and it's just not clear what the infobox is trying to sum up, surely it will change again. I thought maybe the article spanning 8 years of events and the new developments occuring being so different from events that have been occurring in the last 8 years may have caused confusion in this article's direction. It's not an unproductive conversation until it's shut down by the same logic over and over without any consideration otherwise. My intention was to spark conversation about re-focusing this article's title to better suit its content, or to help to narrow the topic. Not to cause the shutdown of discussion altogether. Icepunchies (talk) 21:10, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

There’s no need for that. I’m curious why you feel the need to shut down discussion. It has seemed like there has been a growing consensus on a move which you have seemed singularly opposed to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.124.33.16 (talk) 17:39, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

A true moratorium on page moves would require us to predict the future. We can't say for sure what terminology RS will be using three days from now, let alone three months. However, I could see myself supporting something like "Any new RM must succeed an informal discussion in which at least three users have spoken in support of the proposed name." -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 18:32, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

What terminology RS are using in three days from now has very little consequence in determining any Wikipedia article title, let alone the title of an article on an eight-year war. This isn't how Wikipedia works. We are WP:NOTNEWS. When naming articles about historical events, academic sources are required, and updated ones dealing with the full breadth of this war simply won't be available for at least a few months. If six months is too long, then three months is another option. In as much as the community completely rejected a recent proposal for a move, something must be done to prevent us from having to make the same arguments again and again. RGloucester — ☎ 18:52, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Yep, seems to me a 6-month wait is a good idea. By then the war may be over and we might see what it is being called (in hindsight). Slatersteven (talk) 18:54, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea in principal. Is there a specific example we can reference to see how this has been done in practice? --N8_wilson 21:21, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

An example I am familiar with is that of ISIL. Essentially, the community comes to a consensus on the talk page, and then a moratorium is introduced. RGloucester — ☎ 21:40, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for digging that up. Looks like editors also added it to the "history of page move requests" at the top for visibility. I'm in favor. --N8_wilson 22:53, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support There have been several formal and informal discussions recently to change the article name with no consensus for a move at each discussion. It is becoming a time-sink and a distraction from more significant issues. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:53, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose because there is a strong possibility that new RS will start to show changes in terminology before 6 months is up. This, and I feel 6 months is a tough sell anyways. Icepunchies (talk) 08:13, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support But I would reduce the hold period to, say 6 weeks or one month.Dovid (talk) 15:26, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
• Strong oppose moratoriums suck because they entrench the wrong title. By trying to ban all discussion, you ban good discussions as well as not-so-helpful discussions, and good discussions are never disruptive. In all seriousness, I'm not impressed by the quality of the previous RMs, and I suspect the current title may not be borne out by a careful examination of the sources, so a well-organised RM, equipped with a source examination and approached with open minds, would be productive. Incidentally, the last time I saw an attempt to apply a moratorium on page moves (at Uyghur genocide) I also disagreed with the existing title (in that case, the moratorium proved to be worthless and unenforceable as soon as editors acting in good faith challenged the title with sources). So I'm not a fan of moratoriums. I think they're rubbish bureaucracy. Jr8825 • Talk 06:52, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Proposed move to "Russo-Ukrainian War"

' ' 'Support' ' ' Whenever I google "Russo-Ukranian War", "Russia Ukraine war", etc, I pretty much only ever get the pages and articles for the invasion. Considering Ukraine and Russia weren't in direct conflict (excluding little green men) before it began, and the confusion calling this prolonged the conflict the war instead of the actual ongoing direct fighting, why don't we move this article to "Russo-Ukrainian conflict"? Aubernas (talk) 09:09, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

That has been proposed multiple times before and been rejected. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:48, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

@Rreagan007: instead of shooting down newcomers who point out the obvious, I think it's about time we caught up with reality (this is not directed at you in particular, but regular editors to this page seem to have shut down several similar threads, erroneously in my view). There is now a full-scale war between the two countries. Previously, there was a limited Russian invasion of Crimea and intense meddling in Donbas, followed by military intervention to prop up its losing proxy militias, which sparked a regional undeclared war which gradually became an almost-frozen conflict: this protracted war is covered (messily) at War in Donbas. There was no broader "Russo-Ukrainian War" outside of the Donbas, as this article's title implies; there was instead continued hostility/interference short of direct fighting. "Russo-Ukrainian conflict" (non-proper noun) is the obvious title for this article's scope (although this article's previous title "Russian military intervention..." better identified the main protagonist and instigator, despite neglecting the political aspects of Russia's interference). I believe "Russo-Ukrainian War" would help more readers as a redirect to the invasion article. I have WP:OR/WP:SYNTH suspicions about the current title being a conflation with the War in Donbas, and applying a term used to describe the war in that region to the entirety of events in Ukraine. Skimming through the previous RMs briefly, it appears the current name was agreed upon in June 2020 following a short, flimsy discussion with no real examination of the sources (and was questioned at the time). Since then, the current title seems to have avoided proper scrutiny because RMs have been badly thought through/justified, and discussions have focused on problems with the proposal/rationale, rather than the actual merits of the existing title. Jr8825 • Talk 05:52, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

@Jr8825: I saw this section before you replied and was going to say similar but didn't get around to it. But I agree. It's not even a common name in scholarship, and it borders on OR to say Ukraine and Russia have been in active states of war since 2014. The scope of this article, de-facto, is just every piece of Russian-Ukrainian conflict since 2014. It's a fuzzy scope under a misleading title. Recent RS coverage only refers to the recent invasion as a war, and even with a before: filter in Google it's hard to say the majority of RS called this the "Russo-Ukrainian War" as a proper name, honestly it rarely features, it most certainly isn't a proper name. I'd propose an RM if I have the time to do the source digging to have a reasonable chance of passing. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:47, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Even the cited sources, 2/3 use "Russo-Ukrainian war", and the third is obviously just an example of title case and it doesn't use the term again except in the context of a title. It's clearly meant to be descriptive. The title is {{fv}} and OR. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:56, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

If there is a hostile occupation of territory, there is a war, no? The fact that it fell out of the English-language news cycle is irrelevant. By that measure, there is nothing wrong in Honduras, and Congo is at peace. I oppose any attempt to change the scope.

I don’t see the point of changing the title, on the other hand, but don’t actively oppose doing so either.Elinruby (talk) 17:18, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

The idea that "if there is a hostile occupation of territory, there is a war" is WP:OR and also wrong. To take an obvious example, few would call the Israeli occupation of the West Bank a continuous 50+ year war, although there was certainly ongoing asymmetric warfare, terrorism and state-sponsored violence – it would more likely be called a conflict. The active war was in Donbas, hence the article War in Donbas. Jr8825 • Talk 18:13, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I rather suspect that this may depend on the language of the sources. Elinruby (talk) 21:24, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Far-right Russian separatists

Please note there's discussion ongoing about far-right Russian separatists in this conflict. The discussion started here, continued here, and has now been raised at the dispute resolution noticeboard. ~Asarlaí 13:55, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Did Russian politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky actually die from Covid-19 (despite having been vaccinated 8 times) or was he murdered and is his death somehow related to the current war? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.210.117 (talk) 06:32, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: EDT 251 - Research Skills and Strategies

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 8 March 2022 and 13 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Hogebasj (article contribs).

Date of the map

The map is currently shown as April 6, while the Invasion map is already on the 12th. It needs to be updated at all times in the War page 201.20.127.227 (talk) 23:50, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Conflicting wikipedia articles

The article says Russia is wrong in stating Ukraine was created by Soviet Russia. But the wikipedia article that talks about Ukraine forming was due to Russia granting it independence, with Crimea as it was promised on the condition of a permament naval base.

I think the articles are biased toward western views and don't reflect neutrality on the formation of modern ukraine. 58.174.122.48 (talk) 17:43, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

It might help if you tell us which articles as this Ukraine does not say they were granted independence by the USSR, it defacto gained it when the USSR disbanded and they did join its successor. IN fact Ukirane had been independent in 1918. as and had only been Russian since about 1650. Slatersteven (talk) 17:55, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine gained its independence after it held a referendum in 1991. This is different to the USSR creating Ukraine. There's no contradiction between these positions: both this article and Ukraine's article are based on reliable sources and independent sources, which support the current wording. — Czello 17:56, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 April 2022

The invasion caused global outcry amongst private citizens. Many foreign volunteers have sent themselves to becomefreedom fighters, with some being combat veterans and others being inexperienced civilans. Russia has declared that these fighters will not be granted POW status if captured, labeling them as "mercenaries" despite the fact that most legitimate fighters officially enlisted in the Ukrainian Military upon arriving in the country. OHMYGODWEDIDIT (talk) 21:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Sources

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 April 2022

Please remove :

9,268 joined Russian forces after annexation[15]

and remove [15] from sources Beeballerina (talk) 10:09, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done No explanation given for removal. — Czello 11:22, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 April 2022 (2)

Please remove :

9,268 joined Russian forces after annexation[15]

and remove [15] from sources

The reason is that the article does not seem accurate with its timing and facts. I am not sure who added this but It looks like anti-propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beeballerina (talk • contribs) 21:51, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I would support this user's request to remove this claim from the Infobox. The reference is to this page at GlobalSecurity.org, which has been discussed at WP:RSN a number of times, most recently here, with divided opinion. This appears to be a website run by an individual (John Pike) who has a good reputation according to the Wikipedia article, but I don't see any sourcing for any of his figures at the article. This may be worth bringing up at RSN again.

In the meantime, the Arkady Bakhin quotation at GlobalSecurity.org underlying the footnote, appears to come from this article at TASS. Even if the Bakhin quotation is accurate, I wouldn't trust anything he said, or at the Russian state-controlled media TASS without verification at a reliable source. I think we should remove the statement from the Infobox until a better source can be found, or at best, put double-quotes around it, and add WP:INTEXT attribution to TASS. Mathglot (talk) 03:20, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Supporting this request, I do not have extended-confirmed permissions (yet) but this source is far too dubious and unverifiable for inclusion on an Infobox at such a prominent, real-time topic. ★Ama ^{TALK CONTRIBS} 13:36, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 April 2022

I suggest the caption of the infobox be changed, from "The military situation as of 6 April 2022, during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine" to "The military situation as it is currently, during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine" or anything along those lines. This is for better consistency in time so the date does not have to be updated daily. Flagvisioner (talk) 02:13, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done:. This is contrary to MOS:RELTIME. Mathglot (talk) 02:44, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Map

The map of the current situation in Ukraine is from 13 days ago and needs to be updated. DirtyPotatoEditor (talk) 10:02, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Sloppy citations

Deliberate or not (I shan't cast aspersions), I have noticed that citations are being used without context. If a newspaper has reported something, name the newspaper in the text. Steer away from using opinion pieces as sources for factual information. Don't synthesise sources to make claims that are considered original research. In sum, this page is in desperate need of a clean up. Yellowmellow45 (talk) 20:19, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Naming this a ‘war’ without addressing the primary offensive against civilians is in error.

How can this be called ‘an ongoing war’ when Ukraine was a sovereign nation attacked on Feb 24, 2022 by Russian forces? How can this be called a ‘war’ when top military experts worldwide are calling this a genocide? Calling this a ‘war’ and an ‘extension of a war in from 2014,’ seems to exclude the unique and obvious situation of an unprovoked attack on primarily civilians. 2601:190:C400:9E30:458F:5D8E:F216:7666 (talk) 00:00, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you can look at the current situation and not see it as a war. Attacks on civilians doesn't make it not a war. However, in terms of when the war started, you might be looking for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine article. — Czello 11:24, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Could you explain why you believe it not to be a 'war' because of these factors and what else it would be called? I might be missing something but a war frequently includes civilian casualties. ★Ama ^{TALK CONTRIBS} 13:39, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately the people running this site don’t know how it works. It’s clear that the Russia-Ukraine war started on february 24 according to every single source, yet they bring up pointless self published books and change the notion of this war Wikiman92783 (talk) 11:09, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Pleae read wp:soap. Slatersteven (talk) 11:35, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Please read literally every single other wikipedia guideline article and learn how to run the site and stop sending personal insults. Wikiman92783 (talk) 20:11, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Woah, let's calm down and stop starting fights. Let's work together to settle this civilly. BadKarma22 (talk) 04:52, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

In other wiki articles they list other names for the event in the first few sentences which could work as something of a middle ground. I've seen Putin's War thrown around in the West. I can't find a really good name from any Russia source though. The best might be: Russia's Ukraine Operation which I found in Russia Today, but even that's a bit too technical. I don't know how Wiki formatting works 2:03, 11 May 2022 (EST)

"War", "Security Operation" or ...?

Russia appears to be acting more and more like a Mafia state where Putin is the "Il Capo de Tutti Capi" (The Boss of the Bosses), The Oligarchs are the "Dons" (subordinate bosses) and this whole thing is Russia "muscling in" on Ukraine's "turf". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.210.117 (talk) 06:35, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Article does not have a Declaration of war section

Normally as article which refers to a War would be expected to have a section about the actual Declaration of War, though there is no such section in this article. When did Russia declare the War, on what date, and with what words did Russia declare War. Similarly for Ukraine, on what date did Ukraine declare/acknowledge War, and with what words did Ukraine declare/acknowledge War. Can a Declaration of War section be added to this article or is there a reason for no such section being in the article? ErnestKrause (talk) 00:22, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

There could be a 'see also to Declaration_of_war#Russo-Ukrainian_War General Vicinity (talk) 03:43, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

The section of that other article you just linked does not appear anywhere in this article. Should it be brought into this article as a separate section with the same title as your linked article on this subject? ErnestKrause (talk) 13:43, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

There was no formal declaration. In 2014 the Ukrainians also stated the Russian invasion was an effective declaration.[1] —Michael Z. 02:43, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Date on the top right map is incorrect

These two pages show the same map, but with different dates in the caption:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War - "The military situation as of 6 April 2022, during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine"

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine - "Military situation as of 23 April 2022"

The caption on this page's map should be updated to 23 Apr. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:7E86:601:344F:C90E:933F:1F42 (talk) 09:06, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

 Already done I know this is not technically an edit request but I'm including that this has since been properly changed at the time of this comment. ★Ama ^{TALK CONTRIBS} 13:42, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Russia are supported by Germany

the european union confirmed that germany illegally sold arms to russia despite the embargo 88.156.128.39 (talk) 16:15, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Source? Slatersteven (talk) 16:21, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/22/exclusive-france-germany-evaded-arms-embargo-sell-weapons-russia/ Renat 22:14, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Well its was not just gmernay then, but may have been 9 others (as well). Yes, we can add this. Slatersteven (talk) 09:47, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Battle of Kherson‎#Requested move 24 April 2022

Please be notified of Talk:Battle of Kherson‎#Requested move 24 April 2022. It affects many articles related to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine (with one or two from Russo-Ukrainian War that are not part of the invasion). The proposal is to move from "battle of X" to "battle for X". Cinderella157 (talk) 05:08, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

No fly-zone]

Should we mention NATO's (and the UN's) rejection of a no fly zone? Slatersteven (talk) 14:50, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

There are many reliable sources regarding Zelenskyy's repeated requests for this, and receiving no backing. Also, Biden made early comments that he would not want to employ such drastic measures which would lead to an escalation of the invasion involving 'boots on the ground' or 'planes in the air' from anyone other than Ukraine against Russia. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:51, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

The state of this article

Following up on an issue identified by Jr8825 here and myself. I've OR/SYNTH concerns about this article and, if you look at how it evolved over time, its not clear its current state was even intentional. This article gradually morphed from an article on the 2014 annexation of Crimea, and as that carried on, to an article basically on all of Ukraine and Russia's interactions since 2014[2], which is not a well-defined article scope. Eventually, a pre-invasion low-participation no-sources RM resulted in it being called "Russo-Ukrainian War". The issue is most obvious in the current lead, which focuses on 2014 events, provides a one-sentence summary on the state of occupation as of 2019, and then discusses the 2022 invasion. It labels 2015-2022 as a "frozen conflict phase (2015-2022)". In reality, it is talking about three disparate events that occurred in 2014-2015 and then in 2022, and it pops them all into one article under an OR heading of "Russo-Ukrainian War".

This article has no clear scope. The cited sources do not support "Russo-Ukrainian War" existing as a proper name. For example, one cited source referring to a 'war' was cherry-picked; the source is talking about the aggression in Crimea and Donbas, discussing both independently and and in a summary concluding sentence used the word 'war' once–evidently just varying vocabulary–and that was used to support the title. Never-mind that the section is titled "The Modern Russo-Ukrainian Conflict" (pg 127) and discusses both events independently. It made no claim of an ongoing war since 2014. There is no consensus in RS of that existing, and forget consensus I'm not even sure there exist sources that clearly claim that.

It's clear this article is a summary article of three disparate conflicts:

• Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation (2014)
• War in Donbas (2014-2015)
• 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022)

Calling this a "Russo-Ukrainian War" is something invented on Wikipedia, and thus pure OR/WP:SYNTH. The existence of a war is justified by a section titled "frozen conflict phase (2015-2022)" to fill the timeline, also invented by Wikipedia and completely unsourced. This is causing problems in sub-articles too, confusing their scope and layout, e.g. List of foreign aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War which is mostly 2022 invasion content. Sources that now refer to a 'war' are referring to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, and so readers searching for a 'Ukraine Russia war' are probably trying to find that, but ending up here. This article has no clear scope, and I'm not sure it can find a clear scope; the purpose of this article is something we usually use a navbox/campaignbox for. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:40, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

The scope is quite clear: the military conflict between the Russian Federation and Ukraine since the initial invasion in February 2014. There are plenty of sources referring to the “eight-year war” in Ukraine, for example, demonstrating that it is a thing. Of the 14,000 killed and tens of thousands wounded, over half occurred in the “frozen conflict” phase, and over a million remained displaced, mainly within Ukraine.

The name has been discussed before. Please review the naming discussions above and in the archive: as you can see, there have been four requests since and they were not implemented. But make another WP:RM if you think you can find consensus for a change.

Regarding the mentioned source:[3]

• P 85: “However, only the Russo-Ukrainian war has shown all these tools are not just isolated instances, but a very well thought out and elaborated set of political, informational, ideological and military measures aiming to occupy the victim . . . ”
• P 100: “The Russo-Ukrainian war has already become the longest and the bloodiest hybrid war in the history of mankind. ”
• P 134: “In the end, these similarities of the WWI situation allow us to analyze and predict the impact of the propaganda techniques in the modern Russo-Ukrainian war”

 —Michael Z. 20:07, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

The name has been discussed before. And all the arguments seem to lack sources. And where they have sources, they're misused. For example Oppose I am pretty sure Russia declared war on Ukraine.[4] -- obviously, per the 2022 source, a war exists as of 2022. But then Wikipedians are extrapolating 2022 sources to say the war started in 2014 and there has been a constant state of war since, which is OR.

I mean look at the infobox. On an article about an apparent 8 year war, the source for the people missing is a figure of missing people in Donbas, by the Donbas police department. One source for deaths in Russia is a Russian report on the War in Donbas[5] - it doesn't contain the figure reported on our article, so I presume editors have added death tolls from the various sources (each reporting independent data) together themselves. The closest to a source providing an overall figure is Radio Svoboda, but they made a request for data count[ing] the total number of victims of hostilities in Donbas from April 14, 2014 to February 10, 2020. which is a War in Donbas figure. The data used in the infobox is not "Russo-Ukrainian War" statistics, they're War in Donbas statistics with editor-conducted calculations in some cases. If there were a 'Russo-Ukrainian War' since 2014, don't you think at least one, probably multiple, RS would be clearly reporting data pertaining to it (which, at minimum, would include combined figures from the annexation and the War in Donbas)? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:07, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Another obvious example of an issue is Russo-Ukrainian_War#Reactions which has 3 separate sub-sections for reactions to each of the three separate events. There seem to be no reactions to the '8 year war' as a whole. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:14, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

You're pointing out normal problems that arise on articles about current events, especially parent articles. Yes, many things in this article are over-detailed and should refer back to the child article. That doesn't mean the article scope is wrong/undefinable or that the article needs to be renamed. Just fix the issues (or wait for someone else to; there's no deadline). VQuakr (talk) 21:30, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Those are not three disparate conflicts; reliable sources have repeatedly noted their connection into a larger policy of annexation by Russia. This article is a parent article to all three; that's its scope. Agreed the lead needs refocusing. As noted above we are not the first to use the string "Russo-Ukrainian war", but even if we were a descriptive title is not SYNTH. VQuakr (talk) 20:53, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, this is an ongoing conflict, that has not in fact let up. The only difference now is that Russia is officially involved Slatersteven (talk) 10:22, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

You’re completely right, and you forgot to mention the fact that Russia only lost 500 soldiers in the whole period from 2014 to 2022 when the war was apparently happening according to wikipedia editors. And most ukrainian troops were killed in direct combat with rebels, all according to sources listed in the infobox. I have opened one very detailed move request for this article, including many sources that prove that “Russia-Ukraine War” is only used for the 2022 invasion, yet editors literally just rejected all sources i included and immediately closed the request instead of using valid arguments to my sources. Wikiman92783 (talk) 12:34, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources, please. Xx236 (talk) 07:05, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/02/russia-ukraine-war-news-putin-live-updates/, https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/02/russia-ukraine-war-what-we-know-on-day-68-of-the-invasion, https://www.npr.org/2022/05/01/1095830805/russia-ukraine-war-what-happened-today-may-1, https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/5/2/russia-ukraine-war-list-of-key-events-on-day-68 85.98.239.106 (talk) 08:15, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

THis is a source:

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/russo-ukraine.htm

None of your sources say - there was no war till February 2022.

The Normandy Format is about the war. It references plenty of sources.Xx236 (talk) 13:15, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

A think tank is the best RS we can come up with in this section? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:38, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

That’s not exactly true. We do know the Russian Federation sent soldiers into Ukraine without ID, made “peacetime” military casualties a state secret, and made hundreds of thousands of eastern Ukrainians Russian citizens. We also know that major battles like Ilovaisk and Debaltseve were fought by several Russian battalion tactical groups and MH17 was shot down by the 53rd Brigade from Kursk. So all we know about “500” and “direct combat with ‘rebels’” is that it’s likely wrong. By the way, 500 Russians killed in Ukraine made it an international conflict, i.e., a war, but now there’s tens of thousands of casualties, but it still remains “peacetime” in Russia. —Michael Z. 18:22, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

See Little green men (Russo-Ukrainian War) with reference to Mzajac's point Elinruby (talk) 01:40, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Supported by more than just NATO 🇪🇺🇸🇪🇫🇮🇺🇳

When a NATO member country supports Ukraine, it is not to say they act on behalf of NATO there⸺if you get what I'm saying. Nordic non-NATO countries have also supported Ukraine. Feel free to add this information there therefore. ToniTurunen (talk) 20:05, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

https://www.euractiv.com/section/defence-and-security/news/ramstein-meeting-gives-birth-to-global-contact-group-to-support-ukraine/ Probably more than 40 countries suport Ukraine. Xx236 (talk) 07:01, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

"recognized the the Ukrainian oblasts of DPR and LPR"

• Reapeated 'the'.
• 'Ukrainian oblasts' are Ukrainian oblasts. I assume that you mean that Russia wants to extend the 'PR', which means a Russian invasion, please be precize.Xx236 (talk) 06:55, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

 Done: reworded this, as DLNR are not oblasts. —Michael Z. 16:22, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

"2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine" section additions

Proposed addition following final paragraph of this section:

From February 25th to April 2nd Russian forces closed in and attempted to capture the city of Kyiv. Russian forces besieged the city with artillery and rocket fire through March[1]. Following successful Ukrainian counterattacks in late March, Russian forces began withdrawing from the Kyiv area on 29 March[2][3]. The capture of Kyiv was a major objective for the Russian Offensive, the failure to do so was a major defeat for the Russian Army. On 2 April, Ukrainian authorities reported that the entire Kyiv region had been recaptured, ending the Battle of Kyiv(2022)[4][5].

Following the failure to take Kyiv, Russian forces diverted to the Eastern and Southern portions of Ukraine where heavy fighting continued. Russian forces began a "Heavy Offensive in Donbass"[6], and continued the Siege of Mariupol which had been under siege since the beginning of the invasion[7]. Conflicting information regarding a potential ceasefire in the besieged Ukrainian port city of Mariupol. Some sources claim that the Russian forces are currently maintaining a cease-fire around the Azovstal Iron and Steel Works plant[8]. However, other sources claim the Russian forces are attempting to "storm" the steel plant[9]. Sources of information regarding this potential ceasefire or offensive have been released around the same times. As of May 2nd, the NBC reports that "civilians are finally being evacuated from the bombed-out steel plant"[10].

References 1. CNN, Nathan Hodge, Olga Voitovych, Paul Murphy and Laura Smith-Spark. "Russian bombardment of Ukrainian cities blunts hopes of swift breakthrough". CNN. Retrieved 2022-05-03. 2. "New York Times New York State Poll, March 1999". ICPSR Data Holdings. 1999-06-16. Retrieved 2022-05-03. 3. Vovk, Dmytro (2022-05-03), "Forced Displacement, Religious Freedom and the Russia-Ukraine Conflict", Religion and Forced Displacement in Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, and Central Asia, Nieuwe Prinsengracht 89 1018 VR Amsterdam Nederland: Amsterdam University Press, ISBN 978-90-485-5393-8, retrieved 2022-05-03 {{citation}}: Empty citation (help): horizontal tab character in |place= at position 25 (help); horizontal tab character in |title= at position 32 (help) 4. "Volume of exchange-traded derivatives by selected region, January-April 2021". dx.doi.org. 2022-04-15. Retrieved 2022-05-03. 5. "'Ukraine has won the Battle of Kyiv'". National Review. 2022-04-03. Retrieved 2022-05-03. 6. "Figure 8 from: Pyle RL (2016) Towards a Global Names Architecture: The future of indexing scientific names. In: Michel E (Ed.) Anchoring Biodiversity Information: From Sherborn to the 21st century and beyond. ZooKeys 550: 261–281. https://doi.org/10.3897/zookeys.550.10009". dx.doi.org. Retrieved 2022-05-03. {{cite web}}: Empty citation (help): External link in |title= (help) 7. "The siege of Mariupol". France 24. 2022-04-21. Retrieved 2022-05-03. 8. "Russia announces ceasefire around Mariupol's Azovstal steel plant: Ministry". Al Arabiya English. 2022-04-25. Retrieved 2022-04-25. 9. Reuters (2022-04-24). "Ukraine's military says Russian forces are trying to storm Azovstal plant". Reuters. Retrieved 2022-04-25. 10. "Russia-Ukraine war live updates: Civilians evacuated from Mariupol steel plant; Pelosi meets Polish president". NBC News. Retrieved 2022-05-03.

link to draft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hogebasj/Russo-Ukrainian_War?preload=Template%3ADashboard.wikiedu.org_draft_template#Article_Draft

Punctuation goes immediately before the refs. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 03:15, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Unnecessary part?

If you look in ‘belligerents’ there’s a link ‘Supporters of Ukraine in the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine’ but there are no supporters according to that article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coco the Dawg (talk • contribs) 04:32, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 May 2022

I believe that NATO involvement in the war has helped Ukraine get an upper hand, and I think it should be mentioned. Here are some sources to back up my point:

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/europe/europe-top-stories/russia-plays-down-nuclear-war-talk-after-us-ambassador-chides-nato/ar-AAWZk6M?ocid=BingNewsSearch

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/after-nato-weapons-u-s-intelligence-shines-for-ukraine/ar-AAWZKc3?ocid=BingNewsSearch

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-ambassador-to-u-s-says-nato-not-taking-nuclear-war-threat-seriously/ar-AAWXLkL?ocid=BingNewsSearch

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/sweden-and-finland-nato-membership-could-be-approved-in-just-2-weeks-e2-80-94report/ar-AAWUFoQ?ocid=BingNewsSearch

Please excuse my bad citing, I am still working on it. BadKarma22 (talk) 03:33, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Also, what section would this be added under? BadKarma22 (talk) 04:55, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

I want to add a section including NATO contributions to the war and their involvement. BadKarma22 (talk) 04:58, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Any real details belongs in the subarticle 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. In this article, it is enough to include a sentence or two summarizing that support, and another one or two about why that matters. You could write some draft text with sources and post it here. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:33, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your response! BadKarma22 (talk) 16:33, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

I'll move this to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine BadKarma22 (talk) 16:34, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

BadKarma22 If we're talking boots on the ground then NATO as an entity itself is not directly involved, although people have commented that NATO is fighting a sort of "proxy war", if you would. At this point it's mostly been strengthening troop numbers in surrounding nations. Hope this helps. Perhaps if you included a section detailing the commentary by people such as Jeffrey Sachs, that could be of use? X-750 _{I've made a mistake, haven't I?} 09:44, 11 May 2022 (UTC)