Talk:Persephone

Purpose of Encyclopaedia Britannica excerpt?

While reading this article, I noticed the long quote from the Encyclopaedia Britannica. I'm not sure why it's there. It feels redundant with the previous summaries of the Persephone myth. It also seems very long for a quote from a source. Even if it should be included, I fail to see why it deserves its own section.

I checked the history of the page, and apparently it has been here for months. I don't feel it is worth the space it takes up in the article. Mediocre (talk) 07:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Does it carry any information not already present in the rest of the text?--Wetman (talk) 08:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

It's somewhat hard to tell, as the quote is presented without an explanation or clarification. The only part that seems like it might contain anything new is the last sentence, which reads, "As wife of Hades, she sent spectres, ruled the ghosts, and carried into effect the curses of men." Perhaps that sentence should be incorporated into the rest of the article, but if it was it would need some explanation of its significance. The rest of the quote merely restates what has already been said earlier in the Wikipedia article, so I think that it could be safely discarded.

Frankly, I am very surprised that this section has gone unchallenged for so long. Amazingly, it has been in the article since March 2005. Mediocre (talk) 21:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

No one seems to be voicing any objections. Unless someone disagrees, I plan to delete the section in the next few days. Mediocre (talk) 05:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Deleted it. Put one quote, re an often disputed "how many months" into a ftnote--Wetman (talk) 05:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

"Origin story of the seasons"

This is only one theory, that this is etiological. There are discrepancies. in versions of the myth, Persephone goes to the underworld in what we would consider winter, November to February, however that is the rainy period in Greece, when the grain grows. It's clear from the existence of those versions of the myths that simply calling this myth an etiology for the "seasons" is incomplete and possibly incorrect.

The months she is often said to be underground match the flood period in Mesopotamia, which makes sense as one of the possible origins of this myth is the mesopotamian myths about Inanna/Ishtar and Dumuzi/Tammuz. Something to think about at least. The article simply states that "this is an origin myth." In reality, it's not clear that it is, and "origin myth" should be changed to Etiology.

my 2 centimes

One theory is that the myth was adapted by the time of the homeric hymns to represent more the experience of marriage. From a mother's perspective, when a young girl is married, usually to a much older man, she is whisked away never to be seen again. In ancient greece, a wife enters the sphere of her husband's household, and is completely disconnected from her household. The process of grieving Demeter goes through shows phases of anger, sadness, and acceptance. These are not present in analogues from the near east. So again, it's just unfair to say "this is an origin myth about blah blah"

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.49.244.115 (talk) 14:12, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Just so you know, the seasons during 1st millennium BC and 2nd millennium BC did not take place in the same months as they do for us today in the 21st century. This is due to precession, a wobbling motion of the earth much like that of a wobbling top. Precession also shifts the seasons. This 'wobbling' means we experience seasonal differences in temperature in the northern and southern hemisphere. However, it is not common knowledge that spring comes 20 minutes earlier each year. In 13,000 years, winter will come in June; summer, in December. We're in a 26,000 year cycle, and it will take that long to get back to having our seasons start at the same date each year (as far as the meteorological reckoning of seasonal dates are concerned). Doing the math, this means seasons start 1 day earlier every 72 years.

So, let's say for example we wanted to know the months of the year when winter took place for Homer around 800 BC. That's 2818 years ago, which divided by 72 is 39.13 days. Today in Greece the winter begins in late November, but in 800 BC it started as early to mid-October, perhaps even earlier since seasons do fluctuate a little each year based on factors other than the sun. As far as Crete is concerned, there really are just two long seasons, summer and winter. If you go back to the height of the Middle Minoan III, you're looking at summer's transition into winter up to 49.3 days earlier (early October) than today on Crete. Winter for Homer is actually approximately mid-October to early-January.

The productive season on Greece, and Crete especially, is winter (along with the transitional seasons of spring and autumn), which is fairly mild, with bouts of rain and during the peak of winter are there strong wind storms for the south coasts. Summer is the "dying" month, when the oppressive heat and drought of summer limit outdoor activity particularly during the two month peak in the middle of summer. So it is the time to make offerings to the fertility gods seeking rain and good harvests. This is the time that gods like Dionysus and Adonis were entreated by sacrfices and offerings. So it would indeed make sense that Persephone's time in the underworld was during summer, if you're from Crete that is. I think those of us from more temperate zones with out more extreme seasons let that color our thinking on summer and winter and not see them the way the Greeks and Minoans experienced them. However, this does not invalidate the etiological connection between Persephone and the seasons, just corrects the common misconception of winter being the dying season. 74.96.211.207 (talk) 08:26, 31 January 2018 (UTC)Rod.

Mycenaean mystics?

In historical times Persephone was worshiped in several festivals that were based on old agrarian cults that go back to the Mycenean period. These chthonic cults continued to hold sway secretly (μυστικός:mystic) in the country areas after the collapse of the Mycenean world <:ref>An analogy may be drawn with the fairy folk stories concerning the Leprechaun in Ireland that represent the chthonic religion of the native people before the Celtic invasion.:M'O'Sullivan The four seasons of Greek Philosophy. Efstatgiadis Group Athens p.34 ISBN 960 226 334 2</ref> in order to form the basis of the mystic cults, an important element of the Greek religious life. The most important of them was the cult of the Eleusinian mysteries which represented the myth in a mystic religious cycle. Later it was mixed with the cult of resurrected gods.<:ref>Martin Nilsson (1940).The Greek popular religion pp 48-50</ref> The initiated believed that they would have a reward in future life.

An analogy may indeed be drawn to theories about Ireland before the "Celtic invasion"; whatever that means: both are conjectures devoid of actual evidence. The idea that cultic secrecy is in any way unusual melds with the misunderstanding of mystikos (which does not bear the usual sense of English "mystic"; every confirmed Christian is an initiate, few are Theresa of Avila) to produce this unsupported text. To crown the work, Nilsson is mistitled, misnamed, miscited, and misdescribed: who is meant by "resurrected gods"? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 07:29, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Really, Robert Graves should not be cited for IE etymologies; the word he translated as "Destroyer" was Pterseus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 07:53, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Strabo placed [Elysium] in the Atlantic ocean and this led to the legend of Atlantis [sic]

See the Critias, some four centuries before. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 07:58, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Catchy alliteration, though, that "Mycenaean mystics." This article is sprawling out of control. (When Graves is cited for an etymology, somebody doesn't get who or what Robert Graves was — a literary artist.) Atlantis has no business in an article on Persephone. The innocent high school or early college student who comes here to learn about the basic myths and beliefs pertaining to Persephone will not be served. Why on earth are the Linear B tablets mentioned in the introductory section???? The basic organization and information needed for the article should be modeled after a clear, modern mythology handbook like Bill Hansen's (whose entry on Persephone unfortunately is not available to me through Google Books). Not Grimal, though; I've yet to read an entry in Grimal that didn't contain errors, or at least grand leaps of imagination. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:51, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

The claim that Persephome is called Stygia is cited to Aeneid 6, 138 and Metamorphoses 14.114 is research of the most Original; the second is the wrong line. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:12, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

si tanta cupido est

bis Stygios innare lacus, bis nigra uidere

Tartara, et insano iuuat indulgere labori, (Aeneid 6.137-9)

Talia convexum per iter memorante Sibylla

sedibus Euboicam Stygiis emergit in urbem

Troius Aeneas (Metamorphoses 14,153-5)

Even if these were evidence of a Stygia (outside Robert E. Howard), neither passage mentions Persephone - thus failing to address the point at issue. This is why we do not interpret primary sources. (The Stygian lakes in Vergil are the pools of the Styx - not of "Stygia" - and the "Stygian habitations" of Ovid are a reference to the first passage.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:58, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

In the historical times the function of the Great goddess was splitted in certain places of cult and also in particular names in numerous special forms,like Athena Promachos,Niki,Parthenos etc.Ariadne's Minoan name is unknown and she could be one of the goddesses Diktynna,Britomartis or Eileithyia who still existed in the historical times.Eileithyia was a chthonic goddess,protector of childbirth and divine midwifery.Pausanias gives her forgotten role as "the clever spinner",probably connecting her with the fate.<:ref>The Lycian Ole styles her as the clever spinner".:Pausanias 8.21.3</ref> Her name seems to be counterpart with Elysion and Eleusis and her nature with the cult of Eleusis.<:ref name=Schachermeyer141/>Eileithyia had many functions and her role as "spinner" or "weaver" connects her with the underworld

I would welcome comment on this within the bounds of civility; passing over the spelling, the etymology, and the odd connexion between weaving and the underworld, what is Eileithyia doing in this article at all? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:32, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

There are many details in this article that obscure the actual topic. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:51, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems that certain references have been misunderstood.In Greek "mystikos" is derived from the noun "mysterion" (secret).It is generally accepted that these cults hold sway secretly in the country areas after the collapse of the Mycenean world (1100BC) and this explains the name "mysteria" (secrets) given to them by the Greeks.The present meaning of the term "mystic" arose via Platonism and Neoplatonism as a metaphor for the Eleusinian initiation.In English "mystikos" came to mean "mystic" and "mysteria" came to mean "mysteries".Why is the interpretetion wrong?.According to Nilsson (Greek popular religion),Iacchus (Bacchus) was inroduced later (at 6th cent.BC) as a lesser deity in the mysteries. Bacchus was an epithet of Dionysos who was a "ressurected God".Why was Nilsson mistranslated?.In the section Origins was allready written that these myths and mysteries, the mysteries of Isis and Osiris and the Cabirian mysteries probably passed to Greece during the Mycenean period the Syrian cult of Adonis (Burkert).This sentence does not specify if the term "Greece" includes Crete,which was not a part of the Mycenean world before 1450 BC.Why is Mycenean mystic my own invention?Stygia was added for information only and it was copied from W.Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Mythology.Why I maded it up?Ι agree that Eileithyia is not very important in the article but why Eleusis is connected with Elysion and not with Eleithyia?Besides what is the male god Adonis doing in this article where not only Persephone but both main deities are female?Mondigomo (talk) 18:52, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Title of article

This should not be italicized; article titles are italicized only when they would be italicized in the body copy (or what WP calls the "running text"). Persephone is simply a proper name, like Gaius Marius or Sancho Panza. See WP:ITALICTITLE. I don't know how to undo this. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:45, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

That comes from this edit yesterday, which added an infobox for a play about Persephone. The infobox is formatted to put the title in italics, because it is supposed to be used for articles that are actually about a play (i.e. not this article). Adam Bishop (talk) 13:00, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, the dangers of auto-editing. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:13, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Origins of the cult

I remove the following from the article as a whole: It appears to be largely speculation. From the assertions about what Linear A tablets say, to nonsense about Zeus Trophonius (Pausanias 9.39 is miscited; there is no section 25 and it does not identify Zeus with the oracular hero), this may be a mine of valid material - but it isn't article stuff now. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:31, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree, also recognizing the point about its potential as a mine. At present it obscures more than it illuminates about the topic. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:02, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Near East and Minoan Crete

Lady of Auxerre—this early Archaic -"Daedalic"-(640 BC) image from Crete may represent a version of a Minoan goddess who Karl Kerenyi identified with Kore or Persephone.

There are parallels between the cult of Persephone and similar Egyptian and Near Eastern systems, the cult of Isis and Osiris in ancient Egypt, and the Phrygian Cabirian mysteries. These myths and mysteries probably passed to Greece during the Mycenean period (1600-1200 BC), the Syrian cult of Adonis. This cult of resurrected gods was mixed in certain areas with an existing agrarian-vegetation cult. In the original Near-Eastern myth every year the fertility goddess bore the god of the new year who became her lover and immediately died in order to arise new again in the next year and face the same destiny.In Minoan Crete the hieros gamos (ιερός γάμος, ":holy wedding"), the union with the young god, belonged also to a variety of the vegetation goddess Ariadne who died every year.Her name may be interpreted as "utterly pure" or "wide extent visible" (Aridalen) that links her with Europa ("broad eyes"),the Phoenecian princess who in Greek folklore Zeus-bull abducted when she was gathering flowers and carried her to Crete.Europa seems to be relative with the Phoenecian moon-goddess Astarte. The cult in Crete was aniconic,the goddesses were usually worshiped in caves and appeared in epiphany by excstatic dances and by tree-shaking (cult of the tree) in an ecstatic and orgiastic cult.This cult has great resemblance with the cult of the Syrian god Adonis and is related with the cults of Helen Dendritis and Artemis who were originally Minoan goddesses.

Europa the Phonecian goddess who Zeus-bull abducted.In an oracle in Boeotia she is linked with Demeter (Demeter Europa).480 BC Tarquinia Museum

After the collapse of the Mycenean world the myth of the abduction of the vegetation goddess was almost forgotten by the Greeks,because Homer carried its meaning to the rape of Helen by the prince Paris-Alexander that caused the Trojan war.She was returned after the death of Paris.In Oddysey Ariadne was killed by the hunt-goddess Artemis. In Greek folklore the name of the young vegetation god is Dionysos who is the consort of Ariadne and she was hanged from a tree when Theseus abandoned her.

The inscriptions in Linear A (Minoan language) that appear on dedications indicate goddesses.The names of some goddesses seem to be accompanied by the word a-sa-sa-ra-me which is interpreted as "lady" or "mistress".The name of the specific deity seems to indicate the name of a certain place..

Bronze age Greece

Right:The goddess Eileithyia,who probably gave the name to Eleusis.Left:Athena emerges from Zeus's head.Amphora 540 BC Louvre

Many Greek gods and goddesses or their precursors are identified in Linear B (Mycenean Greek) inscriptions on tablets found at Mycenean sites in Crete and mainland Greece, dated 1450-1200 BC. A tablet found at Pylos in southern Greece refers to the two potniai (mistresses) and Poseidon. The two mistresses are identified as the precursor goddesses of Demeter and Kore.The goddess Eileithyia is also mentioned in the Linear B tablets.In historical times she was a lesser goddess because some of her functions were given to Artemis and Hera.

In conservative Arcadia Demeter and Despoina were the two Great-Goddesses of the mysteries of Arcadian cult.At Olympia where in classical times still existed the statues of horse-headed Greek gods,the two goddesses were called "the mistresses". The nameless Despoina, the "mistress" was daughter of Demeter and "Poseidon Hippios" (horse) She was later conflated with Kore in a more comprehensive cult and her title was given also to Persephone as a cthonic goddess.A Mycenean Greek tablet found at Knossos in Crete refers to the "mistress of the labyrinth" who the mythologist Karl Kerenyi identified as Persephone. The title "mistress" is not accompanied by the name of a goddess as in Linear A inscriptions,probably because her name was not allowed to be uttered,like the real name of Despoina in the Arcadian cult.The Greeks named her euphemistically simply as Kore because the name of the goddess was not allowed to speak aloud.

The birth of the Greek deities from the mother-goddess Rhea took place in Crete,in sacral caves mainly in the mountains.According to the Minoan tradition the maids and the nurses had the main role for the breeding of the children.It seems that the Greeks saw Demeter and Persephone with the same function.Persephone is Kore,"the maiden" and Demeter is Sito (sitos:wheat) but in some local cults she is the"nourisher".In the famous oracle of Trophonius in Boeotia,Demeter-Europa is the nurse of the underground daemon Zeus-Trophonius ( trepho:to nourish). In a similar way Eileithyia in her temple in Elis, brings food to the underground snake-daemon (sacral-serpent) Zeus-Sosipolis (saviour of the city), who is the god who protects the seed and the sowing.In these cults the snake is the ancient snake of the dead of the Helladic culture,while in the cult of Eleusis and in Minoan Crete,the snake is the snake of the household ,the protector of the underground stored corn.

how many seeds?

Can somebody please tell me exactly how many seeds she ate? in the wiki it says severak diffrent time she eats diffrent seeds :/ the several numbers are 2, 5, 1, 8, 9, 12, the whole fruit. Please give me a better descriptions so I can get the right number. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.35.48.251 (talk) 20:41, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

This article needs a thorough rewriting, and I'm sorry it isn't giving you the help you need. My impression is that the number of seeds is less important in the myth than the symbolic value of her eating "seeds" (that seems to represent her transition from virginal girl picking flowers) and it's the fact of her having eaten in the underworld that binds her to the world of death. The number of seeds, I think, is unspecified or varied depending on who was telling the story. This source says casually "a pomegranate seed", with no emphasis on the numerical "one", and I think that's what the Homeric Hymn to Demeter says. Ovid, whose versions of myths often become standard, says seven seeds (at Metamorphoses 5.537). So there is no right number: the number chosen by poets or mythographers depends on what tradition they're following, or whether they choose a number that means something within their particular belief system. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:30, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

This is a good question. The Wikipedia article on the pomegranate says that she ate six pomegranate seeds, but, as I have pointed out in the talk page of that article, at least one paper version of the Encyclopaedia Brittanica says that she just ate one seed. 81.140.1.129 (talk) 16:20, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

The Homeric hymns either did not mention it, or mentioned it on the part of the paper which is damaged. Wikifan153 (talk) 20:37, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

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Merger proposal

I would suggest merging Rape of Persephone into Persephone. This is because the Persephone page already covers the myth of her abduction by Hades in great detail. The Rape of Persephone article currently consists of just a short list of artworks representing the myth, which would be better placed within the overall Persephone page. LegesRomanorum (talk) 10:39, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Hmmm, I don't know. "Persephone" is a very large article already, and the contents of this article might tend to get lost there. This article seems to be about a single aspect of the Persephone myth that has frequently been depicted in art since the Renaissance. It seems like a discrete topic that's long enough to justify existing as a separate article, and is certainly capable of expansion, either by adding artworks or by expanding the discussion of individual artworks already listed in the article. I believe that when articles reach a certain size, they become potentially unwieldy, and difficult to navigate or absorb; this is why detailed subtopics are split off into separate articles. While this article has a lot of potential for expansion, it's longer than a great many stand-alone articles, and it doesn't necessarily follow that it should be folded back in to the main article about Persephone because it's not that long yet. But I'd be interested to see what other members of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome have to say about this proposal. P Aculeius (talk) 14:25, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

In general I favor multiple articles. This allows for different focuses, which can be particularly beneficial. Paul August ☎ 16:59, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

And it is as much or more an art page than it is an adjunct to the Persephone article. Leaving it as is seems the best option for Wikipedia's art collection. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:04, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

why does this topic still appear on the main Persephone page? no one has discussed this topic for almost two months.

I am asking this question, because it is the only topic that appears on the main page and no one has discussed the topic for almost two months. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilgameshkarna124 (talk • contribs) 18:31, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I've removed it now. Paul August ☎ 18:55, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• Don't merge; Rape of Persephone can stand alone as a subject in art. Ewulp (talk) 23:24, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

translation correction

the original name is Ratto di Proserpina! the word Ratto means kidnapping and not sexual violence — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.18.231.245 (talk) 16:57, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

The Italian "Il Ratto di Proserpina" is sometimes (usually?) translated into English as "The Rape of Proserpine" (see for example the opera Il Ratto di Proserpina by the librettist Lorenzo Da Ponte. However I'm not sure what you mean by calling that Italian expression "the original name". The original name of what? Paul August ☎ 18:17, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

in the Homeric hymn and in the Eleusinian mysteries, which are the oldest and most reliable sources, sexual violence is not mentioned — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.18.231.245 (talk) 22:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC) English is not my first language — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.18.231.245 (talk) 22:37, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Latin sources are about Pluto! I think we should consider Pluto and Hades separate entities — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.18.231.245 (talk) 22:40, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratto_di_Proserpina_(Bernini) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.18.231.245 (talk) 23:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

can i change to change the word rape for the word kidnapping? I think it's a better word to explain the events in the Greek version — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.18.231.245 (talk) 10:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I think that "abducted" is the usual word (rather than "kidnapped") to describe what Hesiod, and the Homeric Hymn say Hades did to Persephone. That's why the section about that event is titled "Abduction myth" and why the word abduction is used in that section to describe that event. (Notice that I've recently changed a couple several of "rape" to "abduction".) Is there someplace else that you want the word "rape" changed? Paul August ☎ 13:51, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I would like to edit the sentence( is traditionally referred to as the Rape of Persephone ).

the Greeks do not have a traditional expression for this story! Rape of Persephone is just the name of the statue of Bernini, which is a reference to Pluto — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.18.231.245 (talk) 15:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I would like to replace Rape with a word that has no sexual connotation! In the oldest and most reliable sources, sexual violence is not mentioned! I think people will read the article will get the wrong idea of the events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.18.231.245 (talk) 15:55, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I would like to edit the sentence( is traditionally referred to as the Rape of Persephone ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.18.231.245 (talk) 15:57, 29 May 2020 (UTC) thanks for listening — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.18.231.245 (talk) 16:05, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

But the event, particularly in art, is traditionally referred to as the "Rape of Persephone", so no you can't change that sentence to say, for example, "is traditionally referred to as the Kidnapping of Persephone" because it isn't. Paul August ☎ 23:27, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

"Rape" is the traditional English translation of the Latin raptus in this context, and while in modern parlance the word is usually associated with sexual violence, that's not the only meaning, and in a historical context the original meaning of the word may be expected: think of "The Rape of the Sabine Women", which again is a story about abduction, not sexual violence. There aren't a lot of familiar examples, so I'm very hesitant to reduce the number of examples further, since that might tend to make the original use less familiar, and more confusing than it apparently is now. P Aculeius (talk) 14:04, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

after "Rape of Persephone" I would like to introduce the sentence. (rape in this situation means abduction) my intention is to get readers' attention to the note with the most elaborate explanation. I would like to include this sentence because most readers do not read notes, links or references.

I am Brazilian and my English is not so good, because of that I would like to list my arguments.

1. the name of the statue of Benini in Portuguese and Spanish is Rapto de Perséfone( or Proserpina ). 2. rapto in Portuguese and Spanish means abduction or kidnapping. 3. the Portuguese words for sexual violence is estupro or violação. 4. the Spanish word for sexual violence sexual is violación. 5. I had never heard of sexual violence in this story, before researching in English. 6. I would like to include the sentence, because most readers do not read notes, links or references. 7. Portuguese and Spanish are Latin languages. 8. rape is an anachronistic word, its meaning has changed over time that harms the entire narrative.

my intention is to get readers' attention to the note.

I've moved the mention of the term "Rape of Persephone" in that section to a note, since I don't think it really needs to be there. Paul August ☎ 21:19, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

hi, I don't know how to create a new category, but I would like to send the quotes from Lucan and Virgil, on both pages because it is specified that they are roman sources and most of the sources cited in the the page are already roman or from greece after the roman period (after 200 bc) and most people don't visit Proserpina's page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.7.161.77 (talk) 17:49, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Why that "English" (traditional) pronounciation?

Couldn't there be the original Greek pronounciation? --2A02:908:899:2920:E1E8:E4A0:60E4:F30C (talk) 23:34, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Removed section

I've copied here (in the section just below) a section which was appropriately removed from the article, in order to preserve it for possible use in future edits. Paul August ☎ 12:39, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Ancient literary references

• Homer:
  • Iliad:
    • "the gods fulfilled his curse, even Zeus of the nether world and dread Persephone." (9, line 457; A. T. Murray, trans)
    • "Althea prayed instantly to the gods, being grieved for her brother's slaying; and furthermore instantly beat with her hands upon the all-nurturing earth, calling upon Hades and dread Persephone" (9, 569)
  • Odyssey:
    • "And come to the house of Hades and dread Persephone to seek sooth saying of the spirit of Theban Teiresias. To him even in death Persephone has granted reason that ..." (book 10, card 473)
• Hymns to Demeter
  • Hymn 2:
    • "Mistress Demeter goddess of heaven, which God or mortal man has rapt away Persephone and pierced with sorrow your dear heart? (hymn 2, card 40)
  • Hymn 13:
    • "I start to sing for Demeter the lovely-faced goddess, for her and her daughter the most beautiful Persephone. Hail goddess keep this city safe!" (hymn 13, card 1)
• Pindar
  • Olympian:
    • "Now go Echo, to the dark-walled home of Persephone."(book O, poem 14)
  • Isthmean:
    • "Aecus showed them the way to the house of Persephone and nymphs, one of them carrying a ball."(book 1, poem 8)
  • Nemean:
    • "Island which Zeus, the lord of Olympus gave to Persephone;he nodded descent with his flowers hair."(book N, poem 1)
  • Pythian:
    • "You splendor-loving city, most beautiful on earth, home of Persephone. You who inhabit the hill of well-built dwellings."(book P, poem 12)
• Aeschylus
  • Libation bearers:
    • Electra:"O Persephone, grant us indeed a glorious victory!" (card 479)
• Aristophanes
  • Thesmophoriazusae:
    • Mnesilochos:"Thou Mistress Demeter, the most valuable friend and thou Persephone, grant that I may be able to offer you!" (card 266)
• Euripides
  • Alcestis:
    • "O you brave and best hail, sitting as attendand Beside's Hades bride Persephone!" (card 741)
  • Hecuba:
    • "It is said that any of the dead that stand beside Persephone, that the Danaids have left the plains to Troy." (card 130)
• Bacchylides
  • Epinicians:
    • "Flashing thunderbolt went down to the halls of slender-ankled Persephone to bring up into the light of Hades." (book Ep. poem 5)
• Vergil
  • The Aeneid:
    • "For since she had not died through fate, or by a well-earned death, but wretchedly, before her time, inflamed with sudden madness, Proserpine had not yet taken a lock of golden hair from her head, or condemned her

References

Persephone and Proserpine

I would like to ask you to keep the quotes from Lucan and Virgil, on both pages, because it is specified that they are Roman sources and most of the sources already cited on the page are Roman or from after the Roman occupation of Greece (after 200 BC), and it is a interesting way to interpret her evolution with the centuries and most people don't see Proserpina's page(please keep the quotes on both) and the case of Proserpine case is a little special, she is basically Persephone who was brought to italy by greek colonists, Hades doesn't even change his name most greeks already called him Pluto — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.7.161.77 (talk) 18:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I would suggest, since they are Romans and had their own gods before they syncretized them with the Greek ones, to further expand on it and perhaps add some secondary sources about how Romans would have viewed the myth and Proserpina/Pluto versus how the Greeks might have interpreted it, especially in cult. Do not forget that as much as they shared, they were two cultures with their own pantheons. Deiadameian (talk) 18:59, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

yes, I would just like to keep the citations, as the text itself is already specified that they are roman sources and many of the page sources are already roman 45.7.161.77 (talk) 19:23, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I like to keep quotes to make research easier and more practical, as most people just don't read the Proserpina page (I'll put a direct link to Proserpine in Lucan's quote) 45.7.161.77 (talk) 19:24, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I put a link in the Lucan quote to make the searching easier, take readers to the Proserpina page and specify that these sources are about Proserpina! thanks for your attention and patience 45.7.161.77 (talk) 20:13, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

and in my humble opinion, I see Roman mythology more as a continuation of Greek mythology! most of Roman mythology is about greek people and the most important roman poets like Ovid and Virgil never saw their Gods and the Greek Gods as separate things (Aeneid is the most important example), in fact i think being a continuation of the Greek mythology is an entire point of Roman mythology,i think this is a cultural evolution of a people who saw themselves as the heirs of greek and trojan colonists, and the only thing that separated them in the period of Roman occupation of Greece was the language, (the greek Byzantines always called themselves Romans)

another interesting case is Medusa, her relationship with Poseidon (the one with the black hair) is previously mentioned in Theogony, Ovid only added to the story Aizen7817 (talk) 13:42, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Another interesting example that there was no barrier between pantheons in the Roman period is that the most complete and famous statues of Hades and Persephone are syncretic with Egyptian gods. The statues of Hades/Osiris/Seraphis and Persephone/ Isis Aizen7817 (talk) 14:18, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I do not agree with that. Syncretism does not erase independent origins, or how a different culture saw several customs, stories and taboos under a different light. You would not call Vertumnus a Greek god. Deiadameian (talk) 14:39, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

yes, and that's why I want to keep the quotes specifying that they are from the roman period, they may have different origins, but merging beliefs and cults is a reality in the roman period, as rome was a multicultural empire 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:01, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I think we should recognize that they have different origins, but merging religions and beliefs is a reality of multicultural empires, Roman poets never saw their Gods and the Greek Gods as separate things (this is part of their culture) 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:10, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I want to specify that I'm talking about the Roman period, when people of different faiths began to have contact and compare beliefs (thanks again for your attention and patience) 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:17, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

my point is that they may have different origins, but at a certain historical moment like the roman period, which was a multicultural society, many people saw these gods as the same thing and that is why it is necessary to specify the historical moment 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:33, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

the people who worshiped these statues thought Hades and Persephone, Osiris and Isis were the same thing with different names 45.7.161.77 (talk) 14:51, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I think Neby's edit should be restored, per his summary. Cults and cultures have their own beginnings and their own progression. "The same as" doesn't work. Look at the Vesta and Hestia articles. Or at Heliopolitan Triad. Syncretism is a minefield, relying on perceived qualities and a very selective exchange of ideas. It can offer apparently convincing reflections which are a very distorted or limited reflection. And we should not claim to know how this was dealt with in the ancient world; people tend to seek the familiar and recognisable in the new and strange, and can sometimes completely miss the crucial differences. The problem with citing primary sources relating to Proserpina is that many are just plain wrong; Arnobius especially was convinced that the Ceres-Proserpina cult had its beginnings in 200 BC, a whole-cloth Romanised copy of the Demeter-Persephone cult. Uh-huh. It's a lot more than that. Haploidavey (talk) 15:26, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

for the poets who write these sources mentioned, there were no differences between their gods and the Greek gods is a reality of the period in which they lived 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:37, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I want to keep the sources to keep the point of view of the poets of the time, but recognize that they have different origins 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:39, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Ceres and Proserpina may have a different origin, but they were so influenced by Greek colonists that they BECAME Roman copies of Demeter and Persephone. 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:40, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

my point is that at the time when sources were written, there wasn't a significant difference between Persephone and Proserpine 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:42, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

No, we don't change content provided by primary sources, or provide our own commentary, or make our own comparisons. We respect our sources. If Vergil writes "Proserpina" we don't change that to "Persephone". Ever. Haploidavey (talk) 15:46, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

the text already specifies that it is talking about Proserpina and making a comparison with Persephone 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:50, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

It's even a way to popularize Proserpina's page 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:52, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

It´s specified that the sources are roman and put a link to Proserpina's page, this is a way to make the search easier 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:55, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

cults and cultures may be have different origins, but merging is a reality in a multicultural period, Ceres and Proserpine became copies of Demeter and Persephone 45.7.161.77 (talk) 16:01, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

The first evidences of the cult of Proserpina, are from Magna Graecia, a region of Italy colonized by Greeks from the 6th or 5th century BC, the case of Ceres I don't know but there is evidence that Proserpina started as a version of Persephone that was brought by the colonists Greeks and syncretized with native goddess Liber, she may have literally been brought by the Greek colonists, Hades didn't even change his name as many Greeks already called him Pluto, but I still think it's important to specify that the sources are from the Roman period 45.7.161.77 (talk) 16:57, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to keep the quotes from Virgil and Lucan as they didn't see their gods as separate things, Virgil wrote an epic which is a continuation of the iliad, just changing the name of the gods but also specifying that this was a reality of the period 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:45, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Ceres and Proserpina may have a different origin, but they were so influenced by Greek colonists that they became Roman copies of Demeter and Persephone. 45.7.161.77 (talk) 15:48, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

cults and cultures may be have different origins, but merging is a reality in a multicultural period 45.7.161.77 (talk) 16:00, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

and most of the sources cited on the entire page are roman, without them the page would be crap 45.7.161.77 (talk) 16:11, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

"Copies" is a very general (and insuting) way of treating syncretism. Roman cult did not became identical to Greek ones. Roman culture, Roman interpretation, Roman festivals did not became "copies" of Greek ones. Ceres and Proserpina are not the same as Demeter and Persephone, nor were they treated or received as the same. I seriously advise against treating distinct ancient cultures as the same because you cannot differentiate between the two. As for the sources cited, the author of the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, Pausanias, Strabo, the Greek anthologists, Lucian, Nonnus, the Orphics, Tzetzes, Nicander, Oppian, Suda's author, Hesiod, Apollodorus, Plutarch, Plato, Theognis, Proclus and Hesychius are not Roman. So what do you mean "almost all are Roman" because I doubt Ovid, Lucan and Virgil are "almost all"? Deiadameian (talk) 17:43, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

i really apologize for that 45.7.161.77 (talk) 17:45, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

now that i read my comment i was really disrespectful 45.7.161.77 (talk) 17:47, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I already read most of the sources you quoted and I really apologize for my rudeness I was not paying attention to what I was writing while make my point 45.7.161.77 (talk) 17:56, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

i think i ended up making the worst argument against my own point of view, i think that the union of different cultures and beliefs to create something new is the most beautiful thing of roman mythology and i really don't think roman poets saw differences between their Gods and the Greeks Gods, because syncretism is one of the main characteristics of Roman mythology 45.7.161.77 (talk) 18:18, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

the way this page is now is enough for me, i really apologize for my language and disrespect for greek sources, I wanted to find a way to popularize these sources that I think have the potential to be very popular nowadays, but unfortunately most people don't read Proserpina's page 45.7.161.77 (talk) 18:34, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

to be honest, when i made the comment i was considering all the poets of after roman occupation of greece as romans, but i know my comment was wrong and ignores the roman multiculturism, which i was advocating in the other comments (sorry for that too) 45.7.161.77 (talk) 19:24, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

There's no need for that language and it's very far from the truth, as any review of the references quickly demonstrates.

You write "there were no differences between their gods and the Greek gods" which suggests at best unfamiliarity with Roman religion. I hope if you read about the cults of Mars, Jupiter, Minerva or Quirinus (to take only some principal examples) and their positions within Roman religion, you would appreciate how different Roman religion was from Greek.

Instead, when I read "the people who worshiped these statues thought Hades and Persephone, Osiris and Isis were the same thing with different names", I fear that you think all ancient religions were the same, that everyone knew it, and that people worshipped statues. That is all very far from most modern scholarship.

You further write "being a continuation of the Greek mythology is an entire point of Roman mythology" which suggests you may see mythology as the principal expression of religion. It wasn't, especially for the Romans, who didn't bother to record much of theirs. Yes, Ovid's Metamorphoses is a retelling of Greek myths for a Roman audience, but his Fasti will serve you much better as a comparatively rare primary source for Roman religious observance and Roman myths.

You seem to have thought Lucan and Virgil wrote about Persephone, giving "her time in the underworld" a new and later "more positive flavoir". They explicitly wrote about Proserpina in a context of celebrating and commemorating Roman life and events. We can only take their words as continuing, developing or exemplifying Roman concepts of Proserpina unless we have modern authoritative scholarly sources - see WP:RS - that say they were actually writing about Persephone, otherwise you're inserting your original research contrary to Wikipedia's fundamental principles.

Another principle of Wikipedia is more implicit; it is a hyperlinked encyclopedia which allows and trusts readers to follow their own paths. We don't overload articles by squeezing in material that belongs in other articles on the basis that "most people just don't read the [other] page".

I hope our comments have been enough to indicate WP:consensus on this, so for now I'll only add that it appears you're adding comments both as IP 45.7.161.77 and as Aizen7817. Please do not do that; it can give the impression that two different people are making similar points and is highly improper - see Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry. NebY (talk) 18:12, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I really apologize for my language I didn't think while writing 45.7.161.77 (talk) 18:22, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I think the way the page is now is enough for me, thanks for your attention 45.7.161.77 (talk) 18:26, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I only spoke of the statues of Hades/Osiris and Persephone/Isis as a very extreme case of Roman syncretism, as they are gods that appeared in very distant places in very different cultures, but at some point they were syncretized and apparently treated as the same gods 45.7.161.77 (talk) 19:37, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Are you saying that wherever there was cult of Persephone (or of Demeter and Kore), at some point she was "syncretized and apparently treated as the same" as Isis? Or even that this is what usually happened? NebY (talk) 20:30, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

No 45.7.161.77 (talk) 20:33, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

we have already reached a consensus, i am grateful for your attention and patience 45.7.161.77 (talk) 20:38, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Faulty original research and WP:undue anyway

I appreciate Deiadameian's attempt to find a compromise by framing this passage, but it remains misleading, even if it was not based on deeply flawed original research.
Though it's currently explicit that it concerns only two Roman authors, readers are bound to understand it as indicating a general shift to a more positive and romantic view, with examples - else why did we include it? Surely we wouldn't do so in contravention of Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy of "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic"? Instead we seem to have two examples that were found by searching for "Persephone" in translations of Roman authors, and thus selecting for translations that impose Greek names not found in the original texts and missing Latin mentions of Proserpina, let alone Ennaea or other allusions.

But it's worse than that. Neither example does what's claimed.
The quoted passage from Lucan's Pharsalia was translated by Ridley[1] as

I'll noise abroad
The banquet that beneath the solid earth
Holds thee, thou maid of Enna; by what bond
'Thou lov'st night's King, by what mysterious stain
Infected, so that Ceres fears from hell
'To call her daughter.

That's not positive or romantic, and it's even less so if you read the whole passage about the horrors of the underworld, as Lucan describes what's waiting for those who fall in the battle to come in his account of Rome's ghastly civil war. It's even less so when you read the Latin

Eloquar, immenso terrae sub pondere quae te
Contineant, Ennaea, dapes, qua foedere moestum
Regem noctis ames, quae te contagia passam
Noluerit revocare parens.

Note for example that foedere. "Bond" is not a bad translation; it carries some of the coldness of a term usually used for treaties (foedus is the root of "federal" etc) but occasionally for a marriage compact. But it's an artful choice by Lucan; foedus is also an adjective meaning "foul, filthy, loathsome, ugly, unseemly, detestable, abominable, horrible",[2] the root of or cognate with the root of "fetid". In this context it reinforces Lucan's description of the loathsome underworld. Persephone is trapped in and abandoned to a fetid federation; what we would now call an abusive relationship.
In the cited passage from Virgil, he calls fulsomely on Augustus as a benevolent lord of the fruitful world, in contrast with the underworld[3]

For neither Tartarus hopes to call thee king,
Nor may so dire a lust of sovereignty
E'er light upon thee, howso Greece admire
Elysium's fields, and Proserpine not heed
Her mother's voice entreating to return
nam te nec sperant Tartara regem
nec tibi regnandi veniat tam dira cupido,
quamvis Elysios miretur Graecia campos
nec repetita sequi curet Proserpina matrem

He does not say, as our article now has it, "that Proserpina was overcome by the charms of the Elysian fields" and instead he distinguishes Roman bounty in the here and now with Greek fascination with or longing for the underworld.
I'm sorry to go on at such length, but this is where we have to go if we're going to base entire sections on original research from primary sources, with the only modern secondary source being mentioned as disagreeing with the editor's original research. We should remove this section entirely from this article and from Proserpina[4], and we can be confident that we're not leaving out a well-founded addition by sticking to Wikipedia's principles.— Preceding unsigned comment added by NebY (talk • contribs) 17:56, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

the text still says she loves him and avoids her mother, showing a clear preference for the underworld,i really don't know how it came to such an extreme conclusion based on a vague verb and the the verb is referring to underworld food not their relationship and bond isn't necessarily a bad thing when it comes to Hades! Plato Cratylus, who is possibly the most important source about Hades, said that he has the ability to unite people to him with his own will and those were the strongest bonds( and the verb is referring to underworld food not their relationship and Proserpine avoids his mother, and i think you've come to very extreme conclusion based on vague verb)considering that she has shown a preference for the underworld in other verses and avoids his mother, treaty or alliance seems to be a more correct translation.Aizen7817 (talk) 22:42, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Plato Cratylus literally says that everyone falls in love with Hades and that's why no one leaves the underworld, and he calls it Bonds Aizen7817 (talk) 22:49, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Ovid also gives a significantly happier ending in the Metamorphosis version, Proserpine is happy with his situation at the end of the poem, and Orpheu says that love brought them together! regardless of Pluto having it hit him with an arrow Aizen7817 (talk) 22:52, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Lucan said that Proserpine loves Pluto and avoids her mother, showing a clear preference for the underworld and the word is not so problematic considering that the most important Poets in Western(Plato and Socrates) history wrote that Hades does not force anyone to be with him, that he seduces everyone and he called it bonds Aizen7817 (talk) 23:03, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Ovid said that love brought them together, Lucan said that she loves him, and Virgil said that she preferred the Elysian fields, whatever the context, that's what he write Aizen7817 (talk) 23:08, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

this is not simply the writings of three poets, Diodorus Silicus said that the biggest and most famous temple in all of Italy is one that commemorates the wedding of Hades and Persephone, with them enthroned with huge smiles, he literally said that it was bigger and more famous of Italy, was an emblem of the state, with Persephone being the goddess of marriage Aizen7817 (talk) 23:19, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Proserpina literally started as an evolution of Persephone who was patroness of marriage in Magna Graecia, Lucan said that she loves him, Ovid that they were united by love and that she did not want to return and the writings are independent of the context and fact that her temple was the biggest in Italy with both smiling, shows that it was public knowledge Aizen7817 (talk) 23:41, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

the fact that Proserpina had started out as a variation of a Persephone from magna greacia who was the patron goddess of marriage is actually an interesting topic and one that may justify the presence of the sources here, I think I can improve the quotes 45.7.161.77 (talk) 00:04, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

please man I didn't want to argue anymore 45.7.161.77 (talk) 00:06, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Lucan made it very clear that Proserpine prefers the underworld, I disagree with her argument, as the basis is just the interception of a Word Aizen7817 (talk) 00:39, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

The fact that Diodorus says the most famous temple in Italy with Hades and Persephone smiling indicates that it was public knowledge. Aizen7817 (talk) 00:51, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Lucan made it very clear that Proserpine avoids her mother and that she loves Pluto, I disagree with your argument (with all due respect I think an argument based on the interpretation of a word is very weak) and Virgil still says that Proserpine prefers elisions, if as a representation the fascination of the greeks with the underworld doesn't change that at all, just that the Elysian fields is a wonderful place and chose to represent that through Proserpina not wanting to follow her mother (these things are not exclusive) Aizen7817 (talk) 01:26, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

I made some changes to the text with the intention of reaching a one consensus, I really don't like to argue Aizen7817 (talk) 02:02, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

even in the worst possible interpretation of the verb it is referring to the food and not their relationship, he is saying that the act of consuming the detestable or horrible food from the underworld made Proserpine fall in love with Pluto and that she was contaminated in a way that her mother would not recall her,and this interpretation is reinforced by the fact that she avoids her mother (she was contaminated by the food and now loves him) he laments that she has become an infernal deity, but he also says that she loves him, and this interpretation of the meaning of the Pomegranes appears in some essays of the Homeric hymn Aizen7817 (talk) 10:12, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Deletion of section

I've deleted the section title "Roman interpretations", but left the section "Romans" under "Worship". The two sections were separate, but hopelessly entangled; the first was full of errors, and poorly or partially sourced, and editorial opinion/guesswork - the second is better written and considered, and better supported and at this moment, I'm more bothered about scholarly support and accurate representation of source opinions than about equivalence and synthesis. I've listed my reasons at the article history in the form of an edit summary. I'd also like to suggest that the interminable and inconclusive and primary source-based discussions about the subject (hint - look at the top of this page!) come to an end, and we rely entirely on reliable, scholarly, secondary sources (preferably up-to-date), as we ought. Haploidavey (talk) 07:16, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

ok, I will pass the last motifications to Proserpina Aizen94 (talk) 08:55, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

i don't know why i wrote so i don't really like to argue or bother people, i'll pass the latest motifications to proserpina, but i want to keep a little reference to magna greacia's persephone as a possible origin, but catching the sides and partial editors that I treat them like the same Aizen94 (talk) 09:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)