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Teahouse problem - AFC checks NPOV before notability, but the drafter should do the opposite

I am a Teahouse regular, and we often get editors whose draft was declined, who ask how to make it pass. Among those, some drafts get declined because of NPOV concerns - for example, the most recent case that reached the TH is Draft:International Professional Security Association (IPSA), (correctly) declined by Slywriter.

I am not very happy with the way such cases unfold, due to the canned text of the decline:

This submission appears to read more like an advertisement than an entry in an encyclopedia. Encyclopedia articles need to be written from a neutral point of view, and should refer to a range of independent, reliable, published sources, not just to materials produced by the creator of the subject being discussed. This is important so that the article can meet Wikipedia's verifiability policy and the notability of the subject can be established. If you still feel that this subject is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, please rewrite your submission to comply with these policies.

The problem with that is that NPOV is a fixable concern but notability is not. While notability is mentioned (and wikilinked) in the decline, it is not very prominent. Therefore, the Teahouse standard reply is something along the lines of "before we talk about NPOV, you should make sure that (notability yada yada), so that you do not work on an unfixable draft". I feel this could be fixed on the AfC side, via canned text (vs. the Teahouse where we try to personalize the message every time).

One option would be to require the notability decline to take priority over the NPOV decline, but I realize that means a whole lot more work (since advertisement is a quick-fail criterion which can be assessed fairly easily unlike notability).

Another option is to change the canned text... somehow... to include discussion of notability without saying clearly that this is a problem with a draft. (Yes, I am asking for a rather unclear change to templates that you folks have been optimizing for quite some time now. Sorry.)

Yet another option, of course, is to do nothing - after all, a very small fraction of NPOV-declined drafts become a question the Teahouse, so maybe it’s ok to still deal with those "manually".

(If this has been discussed before, feel free to dismiss me, but give me a link for my education.) Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 16:59, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

• I agree. Maybe just a simple addendum something like "Note that the subject must also meet Wikipedias notability requirements". However if experience has shown anything trying to get consensus on such things is ridiculously hard and things hardly change (example). KylieTastic (talk) 19:01, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
• If you read the reviewing instructions, you see that notability is step 2 (step 1 is copyright violation). If you look at the accompanying flowchart you would get the impression that you should look for encyclopedic before notability. NPOV is further down. First, I think the diagram needs to be updated to more closely match the text. Second, I agree that we should have precedence order for decline reasons and notability should come before NPOV. It is possible for AfC reviewers to decline for multiple reasons and I frequently see reviewers declining for notability and NPOV. I'm curious how authors interpret that sort of decline. ~Kvng (talk) 22:19, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

  Well, the flowchart does have "encyclopedic" and "notable" before NPOV, but the instructions have multiple quick-fail criteria in step 1, one of which is "advertisement". Possibly that is meant to mean WP:G11-worthy rather than simply "not good for mainspace". At any rate I agree something should be done so the flowchart matches the text. Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 10:12, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

  I think that the quick-fail criteria are supposed to mean CSD worthy as you suggest, not "promotional". A lot of the time I see editors use "advert/promo" to mean "not totally npov", and I've interacted with some new users who (understandably) find this utterly confusing, since what they've written doesn't look anything like an advertisement to someone who isn't familiar with wikipedia. I think we could easily confuse fewer people simply by removing the first sentence of this canned decline text. I don't think that would fix the problem Tigraan identifies though. -- asilvering (talk) 19:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

  I regularly see reviewers apply "advert/promo" to drafts with a COI issue in play regardless of whether the text has NPOV issues or not ~Kvng (talk) 03:11, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Updating the flowchart

I looked into updating the flow chart. It was created by Crisco 1492 in 2014 and they retired from WP in 2018. The version we're using is PNG but was apparently created using LucidChart. I can do Lucid. Any hope of me getting the LucidChart version to do an update? ~Kvng (talk) 21:25, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I'll take silence as a no and will recreate it ~Kvng (talk) 22:55, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Template:Awards table sorting - no idea

Can't work out what to do with this one. Well above my abilities even to know whether it is required! 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:02, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

I'll leave whether it is required to the gnomes; it's a valid template which has a reasonable use-case, so I've accepted. Primefac (talk) 12:04, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

I was even having trouble working out what it did and when and how it was deployed! The examples given didn't appear to use it! 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 13:49, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

@Timtrent: Sorry for the confusion. Seems the documentation wasn't adequate. Added a simple toy example at Template:Awards table sorting/doc that compares resulting output with and without use of the template. Does that help make the template's purpose sufficiently clear? – 2406:3003:2077:1E60:C998:20C6:8CCF:5730 (talk) 18:35, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Somewhat better, thank you. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 21:17, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

About Iran–Pakistan border barrier

I had been asked to create Iran–Pakistan border barrier as a redirect to Iran–Pakistan border which I have initially done. However, I soon retargeted the barrier redirect to Iran–Pakistan border#Border barriers. Should I revert my retargeting? Thanks. NotReallySoroka (talk) 14:27, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

I know this is a dumb question, but am I correct that you are asking whether editing a redirect to be more specific is a bad thing? Primefac (talk) 10:03, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

GA Draft class, AFC review update?

Hello, an article I wrote for Draft:OBJECT:PARADISE was granted GA draft class from from user:Dan arndt nearly two months ago, and I am just wondering if there may be some issue with the next steps for AFC? The article is unsorted--could this cause an issue?

Many thanks in advance for the work that everyone does here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tykosay (talk • contribs) 17:40, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Hey there. I think that is just an estimate by a computer of how big the draft is. Drafts cannot be good articles, good articles go through a different review process. Sorry for the delay in reviewing your draft, we have a bit of a backlog. There are people that work the back of the queue though so it will get reviewed eventually. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:48, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Okay great. Thank you, Novem Linguae! Tykosay (talk) 19:57, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Allan Kornblum (publisher)

This article needs some assistance to meet wikipedia's style norms, but the subject is clearly notable. I can't accept it myself because there's a redirect in the way. If someone wants to pitch in to improve it, or has the user rights to accept it over the redirect, that would be appreciated! -- asilvering (talk) 19:44, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Howdy. There's a couple ways to handle this. One is to place a {{Db-afc-move}} tag at the page that's holding up the accept (I went ahead and did this for you). Another way is to file a WP:RM/TR. The first way is cleaner but requires you to keep an eye on it and come back to it when it's deleted. The second way should be automatic, an admin would do the move for you, but it would just be a regular page move, and things like the WikiProject AFC banner would not be applied to the talk page. Hope that helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for this, I didn't realize there was a special speedy delete for AfC (or I knew once and then forgot). Is there anything wrong with using the regular G6:Move option from Twinkle to do this? -- asilvering (talk) 03:14, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

mostly the afc tag lets us ensure the AfC accept and clean up scripts get run. Otherwise, that has to be done manually and the banner is not added if done as a straight admin move. Slywriter (talk) 03:19, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Asilvering there used to be no issue with just using G6 but then we had an admin (maybe more) that kept declining if the draft was not ready to go for them to move it (all AfC tags removed etc). Even though it was explained multiple times that AfC just want the redirect removed so we can use the script to accept that will not only clean up the article but tag its talk page, notify the submitted and list at WP:AfC/recent etc. So {{Db-afc-move}} was created to get around this problem. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 07:49, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Huh boy. Thanks for explaining! -- asilvering (talk) 22:27, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I am doing the second way manually (to the extent of updating the talk banner and /recent) for the drafts that I encounter having this issue. Had also file a Github issue [1] to account for reviewers with the pagemover right. – robertsky (talk) 03:30, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Second opinion on a draft that I accepted?

I'm a new AfC reviewer so I'm trying to take it slow, but I'd like to make sure that I'm on the right track if anyone wants to give me advice. I feel a bit unsure a draft I accepted that's now at David Hervey Maxwell. I think that the article would survive AfD because he seems to be part of a legislative body for Indiana (WP:NPOL), but the sourcing isn't as ideal as it could be. I'm thinking that maybe a tag like refimprove might be useful? But I don't want to be discouraging, either, especially since I'm not completely certain that this is what I should be doing. Input would be appreciated. So far the drafts I've declined have been blatant G11s and one that was quite possibly an autobiography. So I'm still getting the hang of some of the more nuanced situations, I guess. I think that's something that will probably improve with time, but I wanted to make sure I'm actually on the right track here. Easier to fix a misunderstanding sooner rather than later, y'know? Clovermoss (talk) 20:45, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

• Hey Clovermoss definitely notable and as you did not patrol (auto or manually) you can be sure NPP will review and tag if needed and give you that second opinion. In fact it has already been patrolled. I would not tag "refimprove" because although they can be improved it is not that bad and tagging does make it uglier and less reader friendly. Tags often don't get people to actually improve the issue so I tend to use them to signify to the reader that there may be issues. Adding inline tags such as and are much less intrusive and clearer to the reader and writers what exactly the concerns are. In short - good accept and no need to worry :) Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 21:05, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
• I'd say don't be afraid to apply maintenance tags if you feel they're appropriate, it shouldn't be a thing that editors take personally, a maintenance tag is a pretty minor thing. Speaking specifically about this article, it has 24 sources so refimprove is not really the right tag here, in my opinion refimprove is usually for an article with like 2 sources and a bunch of uncited text. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:15, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Clovermoss Good of you to leave gentle explanatory comments in the edit summaries! -- asilvering (talk) 21:42, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks KylieTastic. Yeah, I did use an unreliable source tag for one source specifically. Also how AfC is mainly meant as a "will this survive a deletion discussion?" I didn't refimprove felt exactly right either, but some of the sources seemed like like they could be better so I wasn't sure if it might be revelant. I guess something that mainly came up to me was "is perfect the enemy of good" y'know?

@Novem Linguae: I do care a bit more about nuance in regards to NPP because I've been involved in NPP school and want to eventually be a new page patroller, so I guess that kind of thing is more on my mind. But I'm aware that the processes are different, yet similar in certain aspects.

Thanks for noticing my gentle explanatory comments asilvering. I wanted to be encouraging because I really do think they did well for the most part in figuring stuff out. I didn't want to focus on a few things that I would've done differently if that would detract from what was overall a really positive contribution. Clovermoss (talk) 21:50, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Putting my NPP hat on... The NPP flowchart has a step for applying maintenance tags. Completely routine and unproblematic, in my opinion. The step was recently made optional to reduce NPP workload, but a full review does include applying the top couple maintenance tags that are relevant to the article. Hope that helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:53, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Novem Linguae! I haven't quite got to the flowchart yet, but I'm aware that it exists. Right now I'm more in the CSD part with G11s/G12s. Since we're on the topic of second opinions, do you think Draft:Catherine M. Klapperich passes WP:NSCHOLAR? I wanted to accept it because I thought the subject likely did pass that SNG, but another AfC reviewer already declined it so I'm hesistant. Especially since I'm not exactly super confident in my ability to contextualize everything. I feel like I understand how things like notability work in theory but it's more complicated when I'm actually trying to judge it on a case by case basis. I'm assuming that's a fairly normal experience, though? Actually trying to do these things and getting answers on the gaps of my knowledge seems like the best way of patching up those gaps. Clovermoss (talk) 21:57, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

With an h-index of 37, that one is probably a WP:NPROF #1 notability pass (my personal rule is h-index over 20). However after getting one of my professor accepts G11'd, I now personally only accept it if it has no other issues. These professor articles often have pretty meh citations, i.e university website staff bios, references to own papers, etc. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:18, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Novem Linguae: Okay, thanks for the reply. What about criteria #2? Do the honours listed count towards that in your opinion or are those awards not really significant enough? Clovermoss (talk) 22:23, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't see any #2 passes from a quick glance. Those fellowships might be a #3 pass though. But anyway, passes #1 so we don't need to spend too much bandwidth on the rest of the NPROF criteria. Focus should switch to evaluating sourcing. I leave that in your capable hands :) And if you are unsure, leave it in the queue and watchlist it and see how a more experienced reviewer handles it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:34, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Novem Linguae: I'm unsure, so I'm going to leave it on my watchlist. So far the best source seems to be a blog but that might be reliable than it sounds because it appears to be affiliated with Nature (journal). There's one about a visit from White House staff to a COVID-19 project she headed, but it's very brief and doesn't go into much detail. It's also a primary source because she works at Boston University. The other source is from GenomeWeb which I'm uncertain about how useful it might be as a source (but the notability tag we have on the article isn't a good sign even if that's not conclusive evidence of its worthiness as a source). Anyways, ideally there'd be more sources (3 reliable independant ones that discuss her in depth), but I think it's likely that they exist since it seems like she's important in her field. Maybe I could look into improving the draft myself sometime if that's what I think. But as is, I wouldn't accept the draft just based off the sources. I was mainly wondering if WP:PROF as a SNG might overrule that aspect. But there's also the whole BLP aspect, so citations are important for that reason, too. Overall, my judgement is just to watchlist the draft and maybe improve it myself. Thoughts on my line of thinking? Clovermoss (talk) 22:51, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I believe SNGs do overrule the 3 GNG sources rule, but would be nice to have at least 1 good quality source for an SNG pass. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:00, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Novem Linguae: Yeah, ideally. I did change my mind about accepting the draft after I heard the original reviewer on the talk page that they would've accepted it themselves if they had known she was a fellow (which wasn't in the version of the draft they declined). I'll look into better sources myself but I have to do stuff like wash dishes and eat dinner :) Clovermoss (talk) 23:04, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I believe only WP:NPROF supersedes GNG at this point. All others defer with WP:NCORP being the other exception as it has stricter requirements. Slywriter (talk) 23:05, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

The most commonly seen circumstances which can be in lieu of GNG are NPROF, NPOL, and (usually) WP:NGEO. WP:NCORP is usually much more finicky due to the nature of the content. Curbon7 (talk) 23:10, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

The three culture criteria (NFILM, NBOOKS, and NMUSIC) have strict enough requirements that generally an article that meets those will pass GNG regardless, but in the case they don't meet GNG, they exist for that reason; this is cause anything that meets the strict culture guidelines is probably notable enough to be encyclopedic, even if specific coverage may be lacking. Of course, this is more on a case-by-case basis than the 3 criteria from above. Curbon7 (talk) 23:15, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Forgot NPOL. Music, Films and Books that have only 2 reviews but merit an article are rare, though I can think of at least one AfD that a movie survived on 2 reviews and nothing else. Those who win awards and have no reliable coverage are exceedingly rare, though for non-English publications, this is certainly possible. However, those three do have language of "may" or assume GNG met. For GEO, yeah I just leave those alone :) Slywriter (talk) 23:24, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

And don't forget that creatives with multiple notable works count as well without significant biographical coverage - authors, etc. Though that's not exactly a GNG exception so much as it is an exception to "notability is not inherited". -- asilvering (talk) 03:09, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Help desk reply function

At the help desk, a new thread often starts with links to the user and the draft, then comes their signature, and finally their question. This means that if you want to reply using the new talk page reply tool, it inserts your reply between their signature and the question, pushing the question further down, which doesn't make any sense to me. I then have to manually re-order the thread, or avoid this in the first place by editing the wikitext the old-fashioned way (which isn't a problem, but just seems a pity). Is this a 'feature' of the help desk or the talk page reply tool, and could it be fixed? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:16, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Because people cannot read directions, and despite making Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk/preload as painfully obvious as possible to tell them to put their question in a specific place, NO ONE DOES. If anyone has suggestion for how to make it even more explicit, I am all ears. Primefac (talk) 18:24, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

This looks like a complicated workflow for a beginner. Perhaps the link to that page could be replaced with something like that Javascript-based tool that SD0001 made. Having trouble finding the link but I think the tool I'm thinking of is a Javascript-powered form that is an alternative to the article wizard. Information is collected and then the Wikicode is invisibly assembled for the new user. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:40, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I re-threaded you since it's somewhat a reply to my post, but if you'd rather it be a standalone feel free to move it (and this) back. I do realise it's both very specific and also very crowded, which is why I was soliciting opinions on how to improve it. I do agree that a tool like the new Wizard will help, but we should always have a backup available. At the very least, I can see that getting rid of the ALLCAPS would help for readability. Maybe we should model it off of the BRFA inputs, where things are asked more of a call/response question/answer; they could still be {{void}}ed out, but if it was something like {{void|What is your draft?}} it might make it a bit easier to parse. Primefac (talk) 20:15, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@Novem Linguae I think the JS-based tool you mention is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question?withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js. It uses MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js but I seem to recall there's some bug in it (I forgot what) because of which it has not replaced the preload (which newbies probably find too confusing due to the excessive syntax). Let me know if you find the issue (it should be easily fixable)! – SD0001 (talk) 09:47, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I suppose that you have done a couple of AfCs so far and I bet that you have got a feeling for who the "average submitter" is. Do you believe that the average submitter is able to comprehend instructions in English, and format a question at the help desk properly? I hope this answers your question. Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 18:34, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter June 2022

New Page Review queue June 2022

Hello WikiProject Articles for creation,

Backlog status

At the time of the last newsletter (No.27, May 2022), the backlog was approaching 16,000, having shot up rapidly from 6,000 over the prior two months. The attention the newsletter brought to the backlog sparked a flurry of activity. There was new discussion on process improvements, efforts to invite new editors to participate in NPP increased and more editors requested the NPP user right so they could help, and most importantly, the number of reviews picked up and the backlog decreased, dipping below 14,000 at the end of May.

Since then, the news has not been so good. The backlog is basically flat, hovering around 14,200. I wish I could report the number of reviews done and the number of new articles added to the queue. But the available statistics we have are woefully inadequate. The only real number we have is the net queue size.

In the last 30 days, the top 100 reviewers have all made more than 16 patrols (up from 8 last month), and about 70 have averaged one review a day (up from 50 last month).

While there are more people doing more reviews, many of the ~730 with the NPP right are doing little. Most of the reviews are being done by the top 50 or 100 reviewers. They need your help. We appreciate every review done, but please aim to do one a day (on average, or 30 a month).

Backlog drive

A backlog reduction drive, coordinated by buidhe and Zippybonzo, will be held from July 1 to July 31. Sign up here. Barnstars will be awarded.

TIP – New school articles

Many new articles on schools are being created by new users in developing and/or non-English-speaking countries. The authors are probably not even aware of Wikipedia's projects and policy pages. WP:WPSCH/AG has some excellent advice and resources specifically written for these users. Reviewers could consider providing such first-time article creators with a link to it while also mentioning that not all schools pass the GNG and that elementary schools are almost certainly not notable.

Misc

There is a new template available, {{NPP backlog}}, to show the current backlog. You can place it on your user or talk page as a reminder:

Very high unreviewed pages backlog: 13014 articles, as of 10:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC), according to DatBot

There has been significant discussion at WP:VPP recently on NPP-related matters (Draftification, Deletion, Notability, Verifiability, Burden). Proposals that would somewhat ease the burden on NPP aren't gaining much traction, although there are suggestions that the role of NPP be fundamentally changed to focus only on major CSD-type issues.

Reminders

• Consider staying informed on project issues by putting the project discussion page on your watchlist.
• If you have noticed a user with a good understanding of Wikipedia notability and deletion, suggest they help the effort by placing {{subst:NPR invite}} on their talk page.
• If you are no longer very active on Wikipedia or you no longer wish to be part of the New Page Reviewer user group, please consider asking any admin to remove you from the list. This will enable NPP to have a better overview of its performance and what improvements need to be made to the process and its software.
• To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

Notes

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Recent influx of problematic articles on Arabian language novels

Please see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents § Recent influx of problematic articles on Arabian language novels. The issue is described far better there than I can in a few words here. However I will make the attempt:

• Edit summaries tagged #KMUOS - a project led by an uncommunicative instructor, with uncommunicative students.
• A vast quantity of new articles which are or appear to be unattributed translations, see from the Arabic Wikipedia, others form elsewhere. Potential Copyvios (opinions vary)
• A move to Draftify, but concern that an AFC reviewer might unknowingly exacerbate the problem (Potential copyvios)
• Consideration of attention getting preventative blocks on individual editors

My apologies is this summary is incomplete or at variance with some of the views expressed at ANI. I have created it with good will. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 22:08, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

template:Rename detect

FYI, an WPAFC helper template {{Rename detect}} has been nominated for deletion -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 05:25, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red in July 2022

Women in Red July 2022, Vol 8, Issue 7, Nos 214, 217, 234, 235 Online events: New: Alphabet Run: A to B | Baltic States Continuing: Climate (year-long initiative) | #1day1woman See also: Women in Green's Good Article Editathon: July 2022 – Women and the Environment Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help us plan future events. Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Lajmmoore (talk) 15:45, 27 June 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Free online access to newspapers

This has probably been discussed before, but I'll say it anyway: online access to newspapers and similar content is becoming more and more limited, and this is hampering AfC (and NPP etc.) work. Sites that were free are moving behind paywalls, or at the very least are requiring registration and/or limiting the number of articles you can read, and many US publications block access to European visitors for legal reasons. It's impossible to assess notability if you can't easily verify sources, and especially in borderline cases that one NYT or FT article could be the deciding factor — if only you could read it! Now, I realise I don't have to review that particular draft, I can just move on and leave it for others, but that's not really the point. The LIBRARY gives us access to many good sources, but not to newspapers. Do we know if there are plans to extend the coverage of that service, or otherwise anything being done to address this issue? Or is there some trick that I'm missing? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 16:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Library actually does have a lot of newspapers—they can just be a bit hard to find. ProQuest is particularly useful: it contains full-text access to The New York Times, the Washington Post, the Financial Times, and literally hundreds of other local, national, and international outlets. Let me know if there's anything particular I can help you find. WP:REREQ is also a great resource: if you're looking for a particular article, someone with a subscription can often send you a copy very quickly, sometimes within just a few minutes. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 17:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

@DoubleGrazing I have a "bypass paywalls" add-on for my browser, however its not something I suggest doing necessarily but that is how I am able to access many newspapers. Hitting the "escape" key several times right after the page loads before the pop-up is another trick but does not work for many. Like Extraordinary Writ says above, Proquest is great and there's also Newspapers.com through the library but mostly useful for historical or local newspapers, not the national ones like NYT. S0091 (talk) 21:19, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, both. I think I haven't explored the Library fully, and clearly need to look into Proquest again. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 06:33, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

@DoubleGrazing another trick I read somewhere around here recently is using Earwig access the source. S0091 (talk) 18:08, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Third trick, use Web Archive or similar to access the page. If it already exists, great, if it doesn't, you can have it archive it (which is great). Primefac (talk) 10:08, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Query

Hello, AFC crew,

This matter is probably discussed somewhere in the 17 years' worth of talk page archives here but I was wondering if there was any rule about an AFC reviewer reviewing drafts that they either wrote or they sumitted. Last month (long enough ago that I don't remember who the AFC reviewer was), I came across a User talk page full of AFC approval notices signed by the editor themselves, thanking themselves for their approved drafts. So, they at least submitted the drafts and perhaps they wrote the drafts themselves.

Is this considered a conflict-of-interest or is it just busines as usual at AFC? It looked odd for an editor to get congratulatory messages from themselves on their talk page about drafts that had been approved for main space but maybe this is not uncommon. Please let me know as I'm now curious. And my apologies in advance if this is a frequently discussed subject. Many thanks! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:27, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Howdy! There are a couple ways for an AFC reviewer to accidentally be targeted for messages by the AFCH script. One of them is AFCReviewer moving a draft in NewUser's sandbox to draftspace, then NewUser makes draft 2 in the sandbox (over the redirect), then AFCReviewer will show as the creator. So that's one scenario.

Speaking more generally, I don't think there's a rule against reviewing one's own drafts because it never comes up. Anybody that knows how to AFC review also knows how to move their own pages into mainspace or create mainspace pages. Per WP:DRAFTOBJECT, draftspace is optional. If there is actually someone creating a bunch of their own drafts then approving them, I'd say this is not a good look for AFC and perhaps we should ask them to stop.

Got any diffs? This is kind of hypothetical until we get diffs :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:45, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Liz, there is generally not an issue with reviewer approving their own drafts. Also, some reviewers improve existing drafts created by someone else and find it easier to submit it then approve it themselves as the AfC script does some cleanup along with other things. Its really only an issue if they are accepting subpar articles or something like that but that would be the case regardless. S0091 (talk) 19:53, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

This is all helpful information as I'm really not familiar with the AFC script and how it works. You're right, I'm not sure why an AFC reviewer would submit drafts, approve them and post notices to themselves instead of just moving them to main space! It now seems silly unless they like to have complimentary messages about their work on their User talk pages. But I'm not going to go through a month's worth of my Contributions (most of which are motices to User talk space) to track this down further to find a comment I made to them since it seems more like a personal quirk than a problematic conflict of interest. Thanks for your patient explanations! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:13, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

The acceptance notice is part of the AfC script and as far as I know not an option. The editors are not "purposefully" posting it their talk page like you do with most other notices. The more you and I discuss AfC the more I am recognizing how different it is from other processes. S0091 (talk) 23:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

AFC Reviewers and the AFC Script

User:Liz - A few days later, I will add to what the other reviewers have said. You asked:

You're right, I'm not sure why an AFC reviewer would submit drafts, approve them and post notices to themselves instead of just moving them to main space!

I don't think that an AFC reviewer will ever move a draft from draft space to article space using the Move button. The AFC script performs a number of useful behind-the-scenes functions in addition to physically moving the draft. I, and I think the other AFC reviewers, would always rather consolidate all of those steps using the accept script rather than using the move button. The AFC script removes any AFC templates from the draft, which include comments that are not appropriate in article space. It re-activates any categories that have been deactivated in draft space. It adds the AFC WikiProject to the WikiProjects. It does some other things, and we, the AFC reviewers, do not have a checklist of how to do these functions manually. So no AFC reviewer will ever physically move a draft into article space. That would either leave it to require cleanup, or would require the moving reviewer to do the cleanup. The script does the work for us. That is also why, a few months ago, we told you that it wasn't feasible for a reviewer to remove the tags and templates from a draft before requesting a technical move over a redirect.

So the real question is whether there should be a way for a reviewer to accept a draft without getting the stupid notice to themselves. I think that would be a good idea. What a reviewer can do, on submitting a draft for review, is to submit it as the original author, or as someone else. Maybe the instructions for reviewers should say to do that. And maybe it might be a good idea to have a mode for the script to accept without notifying anyone.

Does that answer the question that you didn't ask? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Notifying the submitter is actually optional, though the "Notify submitter" box is pre-ticked in the "Accept" and "Decline" windows, and in the "Accept" window especially it's easy to miss it. When you leave a comment without accepting or declining, "Notify submitter" is not selected by default, though.

And yes, I think the script is extremely helpful (for one thing, I really like the way any comments you type show up as you are typing them, in wikified form! I know that's not related to this question, but it is one of the reasons I wouldn't consider just moving the draft without using the script.). --bonadea contributions talk 18:04, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

AFCH to also welcome newbies

Tracked in github.com
Issue #45

I think it would be more helpful to them that they also get a few helpful links along with the Teahouse link on their talk page. I manually welcome them as of now. Lightbluerain (Talk💬 Contribs✏️) 06:04, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure what that means — you want the helper script to welcome newbies, as in post a welcome message on the user's talk page? If so, under what conditions? Or when a draft is declined (etc.), the decline message should have a welcome note in it?

Most new users get a welcome on their talk page, don't they? And the Teahouse always welcomes them. Is that not enough? (Or have I caught the wrong end of this particular stick?) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 06:28, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Could have AFCH, when detecting a blank user talk page and also wanting to post the normal AFCH messages, add a {{Welcome}} to the top of the talk page. In fact there's already a ticket for this: #45. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:17, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I hope that's an option? Many editors have there own preference for which welcome(s) to use - I generally use {{welcome-graphical}} and {{welcomeauto}} most. Also if I'm going to report a user name violation or its an attack page I don't welcome as it makes no sense. KylieTastic (talk) 08:06, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

This might be why we haven't gotten this implemented; it's one thing to send a generic Teahouse invite, but there are just so many Welcome templates - do we offer a dropdown menu, force the user to use a single welcome, allow for custom welcome template usage? Each option has its positives and negatives, and the more complex our output the more complicated the programming becomes. I'm obviously not saying that it can't be done, but rather that we should figure out the ideal outcome before someone spends time and effort programming it. Primefac (talk) 08:20, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I think including some helpful links in the Teahouse message itself can help here. Lightbluerain (Talk💬 Contribs✏️) 08:41, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Also, attack pages and gross violations of username policy are dealt with Twinkle, not AFCH. The milder violations, like promotional contents/usernames are often those who don't know such policies exist here. Considering WP:DNB, I think there is no harm in providing them links to these policies. Lightbluerain (Talk💬 Contribs✏️) 09:09, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

It shouldn't be hard at all to add a checkbox for that, though at some point the interface will get kind of cluttered. If there's consensus for it I'm happy to do it when my other changes get merged, I didn't want to make too many new changes without feedback and they've been waiting for a couple months now. Rusalkii (talk) 14:39, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Draft MCU episode discussion

Relevant discussion about moving drafts and working on them in userspace etc in progress at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Marvel_Cinematic_Universe_task_force#MCU_episode_and_character_drafts Thanks, Indagate (talk) 11:31, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Regarding the AFC Participant application of user Q28

Hello, I am LuciferianThomas, rollbacker and WikiProject AFC participant of the Chinese Wikipedia. I am writing (as an individual) to express my concerns for user Q28's application into the English AFC project. I have to write here due to the ECP on the application page, my apologies if this is not the right place to be. Please help forward or provide a link to this comment under his application if possible and allowed.

Q28 has been recently removed from the Chinese AFC project due to consistently failing to abide by the reviewing instructions of the Chinese AFC project (which is exactly identical to that of the English version), and made inappropriate reviews on drafts, such as rejecting due to the lack of images, categories or the tagging of translated pages, and also placing notability tags on articles that he himself passed through the project.

The user is also known to be a hat collector on Chinese Wikipedia, and he always tries to request for specific permissions once they reach the requirements, inconsiderate of whether he can properly handle the permissions.

I do not believe, from how he acted in the Chinese AFC, that he can properly take on the roles of an AFC participant in the English AFC, and could do more harm than good to the WikiProject. Please consider my opinions when handling his application.

Thanks with regards, LuciferianThomas 01:32, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us know. I've left a note on the application page so that your feedback can be considered by the reviewing administrator. Best regards, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:43, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, thanks to both of you. I had not seen their application and would likely have abstained from handling their request based on my past history with them, but if the general consensus here is to not grant them access I do not mind declining on those merits. Primefac (talk) 08:23, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

See zh:WikiProject_talk:建立條目/參與者#移除審核員Q28, here's a rough translation:

1: Testing the AFC Helper script at someone else's draft causing confusion for the draft author. 2: Declining a draft because it had no pictures, which is not a valid reason for declination, WP:BITEs the draft author, and goes against the purpose of AFC.

0xDeadbeef 06:51, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Looks like points are already noted above. I will keep the courtesy link for review. 0xDeadbeef 06:54, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I promise I won't do anything bad like zhwiki, On the contrary, if I screw up, you can be removed from the list for any reason without prior discussion. Q28 (talk) 13:07, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I think the Wikimedia community should no longer trust any of your promises, your events on zhwiki are hard to trust. SunAfterRain 12:09, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

They have created 30 articles of which 29 are deleted and nothing in their edit history gives me any faith they are remotely ready for reviewing submissions. KylieTastic (talk) 14:13, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

And all of them redirects (I know it says "Exclude redirects", but these are/were in fact redirects, and another editor converted the sole surviving page to the dab page it is now.) So it wouldn't really be fair to Q28 (or anyone else) to make him an AfC reviewer, with no experience at all of article creation. --bonadea contributions talk 15:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth, "has created an article" is not a prerequisite for acceptance as an AFC reviewer, though I do tend to look for such content when reviewing applicants. Primefac (talk) 15:41, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Agreed Primefac, but while not having created any is not an issue, having created and had deleted (even redirects) does show a lack of understanding in the policies and guidelines that is a criteria we expect. They also have very little AfD experience, or NPP, or any that I can see that shows an understanding of the guidelines. As AfC also reviews redirects the amount or redirects created and deleted is an issue. They have also had 400 out of 422 templates created deleted! Finally much of their main-space edits appear to be creating redirects and adding {{Unreferenced}}. KylieTastic (talk) 16:28, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Script hanging

Tracked in github.com
Issue #237

File:AFC Helper Hanging.png I've had this sporadically and I'd chalk it up to a random wikipedia glitch, but in the last few days it's happening almost without exception. This is what happens when I try to decline Draft:Space for Visual Research. URL if helpful]. Mac Monterey 12.4, Firefox 101.01 if helpful. Grateful for any suggestions. Thanks! Star Mississippi 19:26, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Worked for me. What decline reasons were you trying to use? (I used corp.) What skin are you using? The next time this happens to you, can you do me a favor and open DevTools (usually you press F12 to open this), then click on console, then take a screenshot after the error has occurred (try to capture the error in the screenshot, it will probably be a row in red toward the bottom) and post it here? –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:21, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I just created WP:CONSOLEERROR, which has detailed directions on how to grab useful errors from the console. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:54, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

thanks and especially for that how to. It just worked for me on Draft:Paul Yorke but I'm sure I'll be here to report an error based on the recent weird glitches. I unfortunately have no idea what skin I'm using. I was declining SVR on advertising, and when that failed sourcing. Star Mississippi 01:40, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

File:Febo Screenshot.png

and here it is on Draft: Febo (company). Possibly relevent, I'd also moved it from userspace, although that was true too of Yorke. Tried advertisement, and improperly sourced.

Uncaught DOMException: The quota has been exceeded. Draft:Febo_(company) line 226 > injectedScript:166

Let me know if you need more and thanks again! Star Mississippi 01:49, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I tried it just now with your skin (Vector 2010) and your common.js. Was unable to reproduce. My googling indicates that this is an unusual error that can occur when your browser fills up its cache. Things to try. If the link doesn't solve it, yes, more details would be good. Can you press that little triangle and copy the info it dumps out? Would give some hints as to the specific user script and what line the error is occurring on. –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:04, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you again, and for the tip on skin. Will do as soon as it pops up. Star Mississippi 17:12, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Here we go. Definitely seems to be a WP:CORP issue as this one (Draft:Silverlakes Equestrian and Sports Complex I also tried advertising and improperly sourced. I cleared my cache following the link you provided earlier today. My rationale: This does not tell why the complex is notable. Please add more sourcing about it, not just about events that took place. Here's the full error message with the drop down ticked:

Extended content

Uncaught DOMException: The quota has been exceeded. Draft:Silverlakes_Equestrian_and_Sports_Complex line 227 > injectedScript:1668 set https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Silverlakes_Equestrian_and_Sports_Complex line 227 > injectedScript:1668 handleDecline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Silverlakes_Equestrian_and_Sports_Complex line 227 > injectedScript:2406 addFormSubmitHandler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Silverlakes_Equestrian_and_Sports_Complex line 227 > injectedScript:1353 jQuery 3 getText https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Silverlakes_Equestrian_and_Sports_Complex line 227 > injectedScript:894 jQuery 3 _revisionApiRequest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Silverlakes_Equestrian_and_Sports_Complex line 227 > injectedScript:878 jQuery 3 getPageText https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Silverlakes_Equestrian_and_Sports_Complex line 227 > injectedScript:1166 jQuery 8 and this is just above it: Referrer Policy: Ignoring the less restricted referrer policy “origin-when-cross-origin” for the cross-site request: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Symbol_opinion_vote.svg/40px-Symbol_opinion_vote.svg.png

Let me know if anything else would be helpful and thanks again @Novem Linguae. Star Mississippi 21:36, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed steps to reproduce. Unable to reproduce on enwiki or testwiki. en diff. testwiki diff. You tried clearing your browser cache and that didn't fix it eh? What browser, operating system, gigs of memory? I'm out of ideas, but googling points to this being some kind of small cache size/small memory issue. Oh and thanks for the log, that does confirm that the user script throwing the error is AFCH. Specifically the submission.js -> handleDecline() method, possibly line 2318: AFCH.userData.set( 'decline-counts', declineCounts ); –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:51, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

I went ahead and created a bug report just now. In case someone has some ideas that I didn't think of. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:59, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! Luckily there seem to be other categories the script and or cache like. I'll flag if I see it anywhere else in AfC declines. MacOS Monterey, Firefox 101.01. 32GB of memory. I cleared the browser cache and rebooted the computer as part of another software update and then ran into it. Thanks again! Star Mississippi 22:14, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

NPP July 2022 backlog drive is on!

New Page Patrol | July 2022 Backlog Drive
On 1 July, a one-month backlog drive for New Page Patrol will begin. Barnstars will be awarded based on the number of articles patrolled. Barnstars will also be granted for re-reviewing articles previously reviewed by other patrollers during the drive. Redirect patrolling is not part of the drive. Interested in taking part? Sign up here.
You're receiving this message because you are a new page patroller. To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

(t · c) buidhe 20:26, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Overzealous patroller forced conversion to AfC four minutes after creation(!) despite being actively worked on

I was tidying up a dab page (Birds of a Feather) and in the process of moving some content that an inexperienced editor had wrongly placed there into its own article (edit 1).

It obviously needed improved and I'd already started work on it (edit 2) when a random patroller (TheWikiholic (talk · contribs)) jumped on it and converted it into an AfC because it wasn't (yet) of the required standard.

Well, obviously. Common sense suggests that something which had already been edited once since being uploaded four minutes prior might still be being worked on and not yet abandoned as-is.

I wouldn't mind if the resultant, tidied-up and referenced article was still deemed not good or notable enough on its own merits; as noted, it wasn't my content originally.

But that's not what the problem was here, and frankly it hacked me off that some overzealous patroller jumped straight in before I had the chance to carry out the required improvements, converting it without even bothering to apply common sense or clarify the situation.

Anyway, I don't see why I should have to legitimise a decision I disagreed with by being forced to submit it through the AfC process. But nor do I intend to give some officious type the excuse to use it against me if I simply placed the updated content at Birds of a Feather (US band) again).

Feedback appreciated, thank you.

Ubcule (talk) 15:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

• Hi Ubcule three minutes is a bit quick but sometimes those patrolling Special:NewPagesFeed don't notice the times and just judge as is. It's an easy mistake to do (I've done it a couple of times over the years) and if you had asked TheWikiholic they could well have just apologised. It would be nice if the script warned the editor it was still very new to stop these issues though. However also as it stands Draft:Birds of a Feather (US band) only has discogs sources that is not generally a reliable source so it still fails WP:MUSICBIO - so maybe TheWikiholic had done a WP:BEFORE and was not convinced they were notable? Lastly you are not forced to go via AfC you can move back to main-space once finished and reliable sources added to show notability. Regards KylieTastic (talk) 15:49, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Ubcule: the first thought that occurs to me is, wouldn't this be better taken up on the said editor's talk page, rather than here?

The second thought (and I'm very happy to be proven wrong here), given that you hadn't submitted your WIP to AfC review, it's not really an AfC matter, is it? If I had to guess, I'd say it's more likely an NPP matter.

As for being "forced" to submit to AfC, you're extended confirmed, so I believe you can just publish on your own, if you wish.

Best, -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:52, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@DoubleGrazing: - Thank you for the reply.

I've replied to the user in question, but received no reply.

The action was carried out by an "AfC reviewer", and since- as far as I'm aware- that power has to be explicitly granted, it seems reasonable to assume it was done under the auspices of the project.

It became an AfC matter *because* it was converted into an AfC, even if (as was my point) it should never have been so in the first place.

This page notes that it "is only for matters concerning this project's administration". I'd say that overzealous or inappropriate use of the AfC process by an AfC-er certainly falls under that banner.

I'm aware that- technically- I *could* bypass AfC and re-publish on my own (as I did in the first place, and have been doing for years without trouble). The question was whether I'd get some other over-officious type on my back for doing so.

The issues are (a) why it was forced through the AfC process in the first place, (b) whether that AfC-er was being overzealous and (c) whether I can ignore this nonsense.

Ubcule (talk) 16:17, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ubcule, tl;dr: This is not a AfC matter, but NPP. I suggest that you raise this up in the NPP talk page instead or directly with the editor in question.

I think you are confusing yourself with 3 different processes, WP:NPP, WP:WPAFC, and WP:DRAFT. The 3 processes may seem to be one, but they are not. Anyone can perform draftification. One can be either NPP or AfC reviewer, or both at the same time.

Anyone can perform draftification. There is no need for an explicit right to be given. As long as you can move articles (which any autoconfirmed editors can) and there is no blockage somewhere, i.e. additional page protections or existing article at the target title, you can perform the draftification. It may seem to be a reviewer doing that using an exclusive AfC or NPP tool, but it can be simply performed using User:Evad37/MoveToDraft, which can be used by anyone. The only added user permission that one may have is pagemover, but that's to suppress redirect creation. Even without it, the resultant redirect will be deleted by a admin since there should not be cross namespace redirects.

AfC reviewers are concerned predominantly with what goes into drafts, not new articles on the mainspace. NPP reviewers are concerned predominantly with what goes into articles on the mainspace, not into drafts. Thus, an NPP reviewer is more likely to draftify your article, not a AfC reviewer. TheWikiholic holds the both NPP and AfC rights. NPP rights is listed atSpecial:UserRights/TheWikiholic as "new page reviewer", while AfC maintains a list of editors who can utilise the AfC toolkit. – robertsky (talk) 17:44, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Robertsky:Thank you for the clarification, this makes it clearer. Ubcule (talk) 18:22, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@KylieTastic: - I received no feedback from TheWikiholic, even though they've been active since I replied to them.

The Discogs sources have nothing to do with the decision to convert to AfC, as they were only added afterwards by myself. I'm aware that Discogs itself has issues (though I wasn't able to find out definitively whether it was an acceptable source or not), but the linked references are direct scans of the CD booklet rather than user-added/filtered text.

As for notability; yes, I acknowledged that it was questionable, and *if* it had been given time and *then* submitted as an AfD on that basis, I might have understood.

What annoyed me was that the whole thing was converted to an AfC when it *was* still a work in progress, and the user clearly couldn't have judged it on that basis regardless. Ubcule (talk) 16:23, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ubcule You could make this molehill into a mountain if you wish, or you could consider that whoever draftified it determined that it was not then ready for mainspace. They could not read your mind about what you were doing with it in mainspace in order to make it able to survive there. One should ask (I have not looked at the article/draft) whether it was actually mainspace ready.

They may or may not have followed WP:DRAFTIFY. If not then you have a different conversation you may wish to have with them.

You have no need to await a review. When it is ready please move it to mainspace if you have not already. Do, please, remember to remove the AFC artefacts that are created on draftification or it will show up in a category that draws active reviewer eyes to it.

You might also remember WP:AGF. Everyone does their best not their worst. And folk can make mistakes. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 16:48, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ubcule I have now looked at Draft:Birds of a Feather (US band) both at this permalink whcih you quoted above at at the current version as I make this reply.

Were I to review it in that state today I would decline it based upon the references used. I find the first newspapers.com reference interesting, but referring (as you state) to an album, not the band. Thus it is a supporting reference but does not verify notability of the band. References to scans of a cover may be problematic for copyright reasons; I am not a copyright expert, so I mention this in case it causes you issues later. The tool at my disposal highlights all Discogs references as red flags. You may wish to investigate this at the relevant WP:RS arena. I'd prefer more than one (large) paragraph from the Allmusic review. That leaves the second newspapers.com item, which is really an advert for a gig, and is not as useful as you may hope.

My conclusion is that I do not believe it passes WP:NMUSICIAN, certainly in its current state. I will recuse myself from making a formal review and I am aware you have not yet submitted it. I do view it as vulnerable to being proposed for one the the deletion processes, and I fear it would not pass as it stands.

I imagine you may now consider me to be overzealous or officious, but the reverse is true. Our role as reviewers is to seek to ensure that an article will not immediately be subject to one of our deletion processes when it is accepted. That is why we push it back to the author. We want to accept articles.

I wish you genuine success with this draft. I hope you find the referencing I believe you need to get it into mainspace and to make it stick. And please remember that this is only my opinion. The community may take a different view. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 17:15, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Timtrent:

"You could make this molehill into a mountain if you wish, or you could consider that whoever draftified it determined that it was not then ready for mainspace."

It's common for newly-created articles to be created across multiple edits, during which time they're frequently not "complete".

Yet the fact that the vast bulk of articles created in this way aren't similarly jumped on and (pointlessly) forced through "draft-space" suggests that the patroller was overzealous and operating contrary to standard practice.

And *that* was the main problem I had.

(If I'd left it in that state for several hours, it might have been reasonable to assume that was the final version, but three minutes? Seriously?)

Also:-

• The "newspapers.com" reference and later edits were not added by myself, but by Silver seren (talk · contribs) who made attempts to improve the article.
• "Officious" had nothing to do with Wikipedia's general requirement for reliable references- which I'm well aware of and understand- and was used in relation to the misuse of the AfC process. Specifically, thinking of someone who (might) complain if I bypassed the remainder of an AfC process, even if I thought that hadn't been justified or legitimate in the first place.
• I've been on Wikipedia for a long time and I'm well aware of the AGF mantra. I also think it's overused as a blind response to legitimate criticism like this where there was never any accusation of bad faith, simply (in this case) annoying overzealousness.
• The bulk of the referenced scans were factual content (i.e. lists of musicians and song names) and aren't in themselves likely to be copyrightable.
• To emphasise, the content wasn't mine in the first place- I was simply making a good faith effort to move it to where it was appropriate and tidy it up. If it *was* decided that the final version still wasn't acceptable (e.g. if it had been AfDed- rather than AfCed- on that basis) I'd have had less of a problem with that. But it shouldn't have been AfCed before it was finished.

Ubcule (talk) 18:20, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ubcule As you say, "To emphasise, the content wasn't mine in the first place- I was simply making a good faith effort to move it to where it was appropriate and tidy it up". I think you miscalculated with the location where you placed the text. So it is six of one and half a dozen of the other there. Looking at what was present after your placing it in mainspace I can't really disagree with the draftification, nor, had it been used, AfD. The "final version" never exists. What is seen is considered to be the final version. It wasn't acceptable for mainspace

Before we had Draft space we had user space. It was and is common for experienced editors to use the latter, only moving material to mainspace when ready. Give or take a couple of years you and I have been here the same length of time, I slightly longer than you. We, you and I, know our way around. I'm sure this caught you on the wrong day.

As Robertsky has said, this is an NPP matter. Many people use the draftification script who are neither AFC nor NPP folk. Please do raise it at NPP. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 18:31, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ubcule Quick tip: one thing you can try for new WIP creations is to put an {{Under construction}} template at the top. If you don’t remove it after a week with no edits, a bot will remove it. I feel like NPP has respected this banner pretty well in my limited experience with it. -2pou (talk) 06:21, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

If- as Robertsky (talk · contribs) suggests above (and explains more clearly than others did *why*) this is an NPP matter- I'll leave it there, (even if- from the infobox wording on that user's page- it gives the impression that they were doing so under the auspices of this project). All the best, Ubcule (talk) 18:34, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

According to my reading of Wikipedia:New pages patrol#Care, I don't think anyone is supposed to draftify before the 15 minute mark, except for maybe something really egregious. Patrollers may find my user script User:Novem Linguae/Scripts/NotSoFast.js helpful with this, it will highlight articles newer than 15 minutes red in the new pages feed. Hope that helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:22, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

I have dropped a note at WT:NPP to reqeust to the rest of NPP reviewers to be mindful about draftifying too soon. – robertsky (talk) 05:50, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

• Comment.I thought the page was not ready to be on mainspace for multiple reasons and that's why I had to move the page into draft space. I don't think it's a big issue as it can be brought back into the main space once it's ready.TheWikiholic (talk) 08:09, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

@TheWikiholic: - From my point of view, the problem was that you judged an article that wasn't finished, was still being actively edited (already updated once in the four minutes since its creation) and wasn't going to be left "as-is" for long.

It was somewhat frustrating to have it jumped on, dragged off into draftspace and forced through AfC before I'd even had the chance to finish that.

Others here are arguing that "incomplete" articles technically shouldn't be in the mainspace at all, however briefly. But honestly, lots of articles are created in this way, and as I've never seen it being a major issue before, the implication is that it was tolerated and accepted on a "common sense" basis.

Anyway, although I did disagree with your decision in this case, no hard feelings, and all the best. Ubcule (talk) 18:59, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

One Reviewer's Analysis

Okay. Okay. I agree with User:Timtrent that User:Ubcule is making a mountain out of a molehill. I also think that a minor apology is in order, and we should then move on, but I will state my opinion as to who should apologize. First, the real error was by Funkysax music, who inserted a stub article into a disambiguation page, and Ubcule was cleaning that up, for which thanks are due. However, Ubcule was making a good-faith error that had two parts. The first part was creating an article in article space piecemeal. Some editors create articles in article space piecemeal, which leaves stuff in article space that is not ready for article space, and some New Page patrollers will leave it alone, some will quickly move it to draft space, and some will tag it for deletion. There are different views among New Page patrollers as to how aggressive they should be in moving stuff out of article space that isn't ready for article space. The second part of the mistake was that the article probably didn't belong in article space anyway. It isn't clear whether the band passes musical notability. So my analysis is that User:TheWikiholic was correct in moving the page into draft space. So my analysis is that User:Ubcule owes TheWikiholic a minor apology for being overzealous in saying that they were being overzealous. They were both trying to clean up a mess, and the mess should have been in user or draft space. Now it is in draft space, and we should move on. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:19, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

• I don't often comment here these days since I'm doing my best to maintain my state of semi-retirement, but a crisis at NPP (it's backlog) has brought me from volunteer reserve back into active service. Ubcule, I must concur with Robert who sums it up nicely. It's a pity that this issue developed into such a long and rambling thread when it's specifically something to be discussed at New Page Patrol. With only a tiny fraction of the 700+ New Page Reviewers doing all the work to reduce a monumental backlog, it's inevitable that errors will occur. That said, TheWikiholic is an experienced reviewer ad was doing what I would have done. There is no shame in having an article draftified; it's much better than it being tag-bombed or sent to one of the deletion venues and it gives the creator time to develop the article in peace. An article is not 'forced' into the AfC scheme of things. Editors may also optionally submit drafts for review via the articles for creation process by adding the code {{subst:submit}} to the top of the draft page, a draft does not necessarily need to be submitted to AfC and a competent user can move it back to mainspace if it is ready. It will of course come under review again at NPP. Although similar in many respects, AfC and NPP have some fundamental differences: NPP is triage, while AfC is the field hospital. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon:

• Funkysax music may have been in error, but their contribution was the epitome of why we have WP:AGF; an obviously genuine attempt only hindered by lack of experience. That's why I wasn't inclined to simply remove it (even if, in hindsight, I maybe should have).
• In resolving a matter that- I agree- has got way out of proportion, it's probably counter-productive to inflame things by discussing who owes who an apology or to use that against me when I'd never asked for one from anyone else(!) I still disagree with TheWikiholic's original decision, but that's done and I have no hard feelings against them.
• My problem was never criticism of the finished content, but that (regardless) it was judged *before* the tidying up was finished. If the tidied-up version still isn't good enough (which may well be the case), fair enough, but that *should* have been a separate issue.

Ubcule (talk) 19:27, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Off-topic

If you realize that you've let your misplaced anger run well past its course, it is beyond the pale to start whining about somebody owes you an apology. Wikipedia is not your private social club so you need not take offense at other editors getting the job done. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:30, 7 July 2022 (UTC) @Chris troutman: If you'd actually paid attention to what I said instead of jumping right in with a self-righteous lecture, you'd have seen that the whole point I was making was that- contrary to what was implied then used against me- I hadn't demanded (nor expected) an apology from anyone else in the first place. (The only person doing so was Robert McClenon who seemed to think I owed TheWikiholic one.) Ubcule (talk) 20:00, 7 July 2022 (UTC) I think Robert is right on that count.Come to my talk page if you want to continue feeling sorry for yourself. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:04, 7 July 2022 (UTC) It is true that User:Ubcule was not asking for an apology from User:TheWikiholic, but they were finding fault with TW for being "overzealous". Maybe I should have said that if anyone owed anyone an apology, it was Ubcule for the sloppy claim that TW had been overzealous. It is "interesting" that Ubcule is commenting on the conduct of two editors, one of whom was improving the encyclopedia, and one of whom was not, and is complaining that TW acted hastily or overzealously, while not criticizing the one who had introduced a need for cleanup. As I said, I think that two editors made mistakes, and one, TheWikiholic, did not. It is permitted to draftify obviously incomplete stuff in article space. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:18, 7 July 2022 (UTC) Not sure what- if anything!- the scare quotes around "interesting" are supposed to imply. The person was clearly a newbie editing in good faith, so I cut them some (well, quite a lot) of slack because of that. Maybe a bit too much in hindsight, but whatever. Not much more to it than that. Ubcule (talk) 21:13, 7 July 2022 (UTC) @Chris troutman: Well, I guess everyone's entitled to their opinion, however little value I place on yours. But I'm quite entitled to call out anyone misrepresenting something I never said- either due to laziness, maliciousness, incompetence or all three- particularly if it's likely to be used against me (e.g. as the basis for the misdirectedly judgemental screed above). "Come to my talk page if you want to continue feeling sorry for yourself." Is this supposed to be snide or threatening, or both? Ubcule (talk) 20:39, 7 July 2022 (UTC) Your sad effort to garner attention/ sympathy has wasted everyone's time. If you insist of filing a hurt feelings report how about you do it somewhere else the public doesn't have to observe? Chris Troutman (talk) 20:48, 7 July 2022 (UTC) For someone who purports to be tired of it, it's odd that you were the one who's tried to throw fuel on the fire by painting it as "attention seeking" and "hurt feelings" and are clearly happy to keep it going in the least productive manner possible...! Ubcule (talk) 21:10, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Craig F Duffy

This promotional autobio has now been moved into the main space by the creator. I'm considering whether to move it back to drafts, or take it to AfD. Where did we land on the question of notability for cue sports players, and specifically whether those 1990 Aussie snooker wins make this inherently notable? I looked at the notability guideline, but can't say I managed to fully decipher it. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 06:24, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

I'd say it's a borderline case (lots of not-quite-winning on his record...) so AFD might be the way to go. Primefac (talk) 09:35, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

It's been moved back to draft space again. This brings up an issue. At some point articles that are repeatedly moved between article space and draft space need to be sent to AFD. Move-warring is undesirable, and doesn't have an obvious end. My thinking is that there is language in the guideline on draftifying that says that the author can decline the draftifying, so that one move to draft space should be the limit, followed by AFD. That is my interpretation. Some reviewers evidently think otherwise. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:59, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

A minor point regarding It's been moved back to draft space again - I am going to attribute the "again" to its location in the draft space, not the move itself, as it has only been moved now once out of and once into draft space (the other moves are dab-related). As far as I am aware, most NPRs have gotten reasonably good about not re-draftifying if a page has been moved more than once, though obviously I am not omniscient and can't speak for all NPRs. I think that is due to some discussions about the appropriateness of multiple re-draftifications and the hassle caused by copy/paste pagemoves and weird disambiguations. Primefac (talk) 17:05, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay. You are correct in that I was a little sloppy in my language. By the way, sometimes "weird" disambiguations are done on purpose in order to confuse the reviewers. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:18, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

No worries, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page (since you then went on to talk about "multiple draftifications"). Primefac (talk) 17:22, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

To complicate things further, this has been moved between 'Craig Duffy' and 'Craig F Duffy' a few times. I don't mind admitting that I've already lost track of where it is vs. where it should be. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 17:18, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I'm not sure why Praxidicae chose to re-disambiguate upon draftification, since the non-dabbed version makes it more obvious that there are shenanigans afoot. Granted, I don't care enough to un-dab it again, but I do think that if it becomes acceptable it should be moved back to the un-dabbed version (and yes, I'll happily drop the salt on the page if/when that happens). Primefac (talk) 17:22, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

I think it was because it autofilled from a previous draftification when I was trying to type something else. PRAXIDICAE🌈 17:22, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. Primefac (talk) 17:43, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Here we go again, it's back in the main space. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:43, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Here we go again. I've sent it to AFD. In my opinion, it is not a borderline case, although it looks like one. There is no significant coverage, just database entries, and database entries have been deprecated for association football, cricket, and baseball, as well as for cue sports. It has a long history. It's already been salted at Craig Duffy, and was then recreated as Craig Duffy (entrepreneur), and went to AFD there. It's at Craig Duffy, the salted title, because User:Primefac moved it there from Craig F. Duffy. Was there a warning that you were about to move it to an admin-protected title, or did it allow an admin to override salting without knowing that they were overriding salting? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:02, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

I knew I was overriding the salt, but admins don't receive warnings about such things anyway. Primefac (talk) 19:12, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, I would also like it if AFC reviewers knew when they were overriding an ECP salt, so that the reviewer would know that there is history. That, in my opinion, means that a conscientious reviewer should review the thing twice before accepting it, and should probably also review the thing twice before declining it. So maybe that is another feature request. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:53, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Clumsy Notes from Authors

This is a comment about two clumsy methods used by authors of drafts for communicating with reviewers. Sometimes the author of a draft inserts a comment either at the top or at the bottom of the draft. Sometimes the author of a draft inserts a comment in the Short Description. In the first case the comment has to be removed manually if the draft is accepted. (The author doesn't realize that they may be slowing down acceptance by discouraging a reviewer from accepting it.) Should the instructions for reviewers say that comments by originators need to be removed? Also, should reviewers tell originators, on their user talk pages, not to put dialog in the draft?

Also, sometimes the originator of a draft uses the Short Description to communicate with the reviewer. Should the instructions for reviewers include checking that the Short Description is reasonable? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:08, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

I think "whatever makes the most sense" is the way to go. Of the "comments next to {{AFC comments}}" I've seen, most can just be thrown in their own AFC comment to be removed later. Some can be copied along with the reviewer's comments onto the talk page. I can't say as I've ever seen shortdesc "comments", but I would convert or move those as appropriate.

As for your later question, I don't know if we necessarily need to codify it; it's not like it comes up enough in discussion here to indicate that there is confusion or concern on the part of the reviewers. That being said, I don't mind if we can find a good/useful way to indicate it on the instructions. Primefac (talk) 17:34, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

If we moved these comments/discussions to the Draft talk page, authors could use the new (reply) feature (is this enabled by default now?) which would make things easier for everyone assuming everyone is aware of the existence and purpose of talk pages (not necessarily a good assumption). ~Kvng (talk) 14:07, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Comment About AFC Comments

Tracked in github.com
Issue #127

While I am on the topic of AFC comments, I have another meta-comment (comment about comments). Is there a reason why AFC comments do not get copied onto the user talk page of the submitter? I have been asking this for either months or years. AFC decline comments go onto the submitter talk page, but AFC comments just go onto the draft. Sometimes the reviewer would like to get the attention of the submitter, and experience has shown that the comment that there is a comment does not always get the submitter to look on the draft. I don't think that copying the comments to the submitter talk page would do any harm, and it would have a very slight benefit, so why not do it? It wouldn't do much good, but it wouldn't do harm. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:14, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

I've also wondered about it when I previously worked for the AFC. One thing that I think could be a reason of this is that AFC comments left by a reviewer are visible to the other reviewers if they are on the Draft instead of the talk page of the submitter. Bears (talk) 17:37, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

It is tracked, and you've mentioned it a few times, the most recent of which being March 2022 (other instances going back to at least 2020 are in the github ticket). It's a known request, and "as soon as someone does it" is the answer to "when". I suspect it's a slightly lower-priority task compared to some of the actual bugs we're still trying to deal with, but who knows, someone might fix it tomorrow. Primefac (talk) 17:46, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

(for what it's worth, my comment above was not meant as any sort of chastisement or complaint about the frequency of this being brought up; if anything, feature requests being nicely re-requested every once in a while indicates what the Project finds to be higher-priority as far as new features go) Primefac (talk) 20:30, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. I will probably ask again in a few months, but now I know that it is in a queue. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:46, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

If a copy of the comment were put on the author's talk page, the likely outcome would be that the author would respond on their talk page and that's not desirable. As it stands though, it is not clear how or where they should respond. We have also discussed moving these comments to the draft talk page. I think there was a concern that authors would be even less likely to see them there. Comments are at the top of the draft because AfC predates the Draft namespace and originally there was no talk page to put them on. ~Kvng (talk) 14:03, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Category for disambiguation drafts

What has gone wrong with this talk page? Instead of creating a new section like a normal talk page, it just scrolled to the bottom of the existing page and mixed current discussions with an add-a-comment screen, as if this were Facebook. The constant auto-modifications to the preview of my typing are visually distracting. When I typed tab-space to save my comment, the highlighting shifted to a link in the preview instead of to the publish-changes button, so I almost navigated to another page and lost my comment! It's very confusing and user-unfriendly.

Would it be possible to have a category for disambiguation drafts? I just wrote a draft disambiguation page, and it went into Category:AfC submissions on other topics with tons of other pages, many of which probably were written by people who didn't try to find a category. If a disambiguation template is on the draft page, the wizard could automatically override the topical classification and put it into Category:AFC disambiguation submissions. This would probably be easier for reviewers who want to do something quickly, since most disambiguation drafts should be easy to evaluate. 49.198.51.54 (talk) 22:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

First, take your feedback about the talk page tool to Wikipedia:Talk pages project. This is an ongoing, project wide change and not limited to just this talk page.

Second, there is already such a category: Category:Pending template and disambiguation AfC submissions. – robertsky (talk) 07:22, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Is there a way that this category can be populated from the beginning of the process? If you look at my submission at the time I submitted it, the only disambiguation-related category is transcluded by the disambiguation template. 49.198.51.54 (talk) 07:33, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Not immediately. The relevant submission JavaScript needs an update for this. Pinging @SD0001, @Novem Linguae. – robertsky (talk) 09:46, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

It looks like drafts get added to this category only if the {{AfC submission}} template has |type=template or |type=dab. Code. However does anything ever actually set this? –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:26, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Can't publish draft as there's a redirect on the main space page

Hi, I found a recent draft which had been moved into main space before ready so I moved it back to draft and improved it. However now that it's ready to publish there is a redirect on the main space page back to the draft. Can someone please investigate and untangle this? Many thanks! The draft is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Sarah_Wood_(businesswoman) MurielMary (talk) 11:03, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@MurielMary are you asking for an AfC review, or someone with a pagemover right to move the article for you? – robertsky (talk) 11:30, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@Robertsky the latter - someone with pagemover rights to move it. I'm an AfC reviewer; I've improved this draft ready for publication. Thanks. MurielMary (talk) 11:40, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@MurielMary it is done. – robertsky (talk) 11:42, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@Robertsky thanks very much! MurielMary (talk) 11:54, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Another option in the future would be to place {{Db-afc-move}} on the redirect page. That will summon an admin to delete it for you. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:28, 11 July 2022 (UTC)