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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by OckRaz (talk | contribs) at 14:36, 22 July 2023 (→‎Not all content is "conspiracy theory"; title and content need changing: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"False" allegations in the introduction

Stating that the allegations are false is a great example of why Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.209.218.176 (talk) 04:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The allegations made long ago described in this article are false. More recent allegations are pending. This is not the "Every allegation made against Joe Biden" article. soibangla (talk) 04:41, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An allegation is a guess. Nothing implies it is False. The use of left leaning baised media as a source doesn't help either. Many things that where thought of as Qanon theories, Russian misinformation, and right leaning hypocrisy have been proven to be real time and time again. if you need a source I would say use the many you can find on bing and brave search engines (not Google for obvious reasons) Hawksofthewoods (talk) 18:50, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Counterpoint: false allegations are false, they are not a "guess", and presenting a baseless "guess" as valid as you suggest is an offense, in this case, against Biden. No Qanon theories, Russian misinformation, and right leaning hypocrisy have been proven to be true, or you would provide some reliable sources to back up your claims. Sources that you "perceive" as left leaning baised media are just telling you what you don't want to hear. This is the first time that I've heard someone suggest that Google is biased and Bing is not. @Hawksofthewoods: please back up your claims. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:12, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hunter Biden, Burisma, and Corruption 75.108.55.59 (talk) 16:25, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A partisan report authored by Chuck Grassley. Point? Zaathras (talk) 17:28, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying that Congressional reports are not reliable sources? 75.108.55.59 (talk) 18:57, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Even the minority on that committee denounced it. – •Raven  .talk 19:28, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Grassley’s report has specific Suspicious Activity Reports and details whistleblower evidence given to the FBI. What are characterizing as partisan? Salem196027 (talk) 15:40, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SARs are very common and most often false positives. Please provide a source for this supposed whistleblower. soibangla (talk) 16:20, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Republican Inquiry Finds No Evidence of Wrongdoing by Biden" soibangla (talk) 17:36, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking of "false" and "bias", the document you cite claims on pp. 8–9: "In 2016, Ukraine’s top prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, had an active and ongoing investigation into Burisma and its owner, Mykola Zlochevsky. At the time, Archer and Hunter Biden continued to serve on Burisma’s board of directors." As the article Viktor Shokin notes, "The investigation into Burisma only pertained to events happening before[54] Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, joined the board of directors of Burisma Holdings in 2014." (54. Ivanova, Polina; Polityuk, Pavel (27 September 2019). "Ukraine agency says allegations against Burisma cover period before Biden joined". Reuters. London: Thomson Reuters. Archived from the original on 3 October 2019. Retrieved 1 October 2019.) ... Also: "Among other issues, he was slow-walking the investigation into Zlochevsky and Burisma and, according to Zlochevsky's allies, using the threat of prosecution to try to solicit bribes from Mr. Zlochevsky and his team....[40]" (40. Vogel, Kenneth P. (22 September 2019). "Trump, Biden and Ukraine: Sorting Out the Accusations". The New York Times. New York City. ISSN 0362-4331. Archived from the original on 3 October 2019. Retrieved 23 September 2019. "A version of this article appears in print on Sept. 22, 2019, Section A, Page 19 of the New York edition with the headline: Trump Is Pointing Fingers, but Here’s the Rundown on Biden and Son.") [Boldface added in both cases.] In 2020 (i.e. while Trump was U.S. President), Ukrainian police opened a probe into the allegations Shokin had made of political pressure... and closed it again. (Melkozerova, Veronika. "Ukraine police close Biden probe initiated by ousted prosecutor". NBC News. Kyiv. Retrieved 2021-10-25.) The last source also mentions: "Shokin has alleged that he was forced to resign once he started looking into Hunter Biden’s role at Burisma, but a deputy prosecutor working under Shokin has said the Burisma case had been dormant at the time the U.S. was pushing for Shokin's removal. / Multiple western governments, including the Obama administration, had demanded he be replaced for failing to prosecute corruption cases, and Ukrainian investigators and anti-corruption watchdogs have said that Shokin was fired because he had made no progress in the fight against corruption." – •Raven  .talk 18:02, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is no question that Hunter Biden's substantial financial gain from sitting on the Board of Burisma was problematic for the stated US anti-corruption foreign policy at the time. It doesn't matter when the corrupt dealings happened, what mattered was that nothing could be done about Burisma and it's odious owner while Biden was sitting on the board (the whole motive for asking him to be on the board?). I don't know why you fight so hard NOT to acknowledge this, it's stated directly in the source you cited. Other facts, also not disputed is that Joe Biden, as VP, threatened to withhold financial support to Ukraine if Shokin wasn't removed. (Also in your citations) The interference itself, was the problem, not the motivation behind it. 75.108.55.59 (talk) 18:54, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We're still doing this? There is no question that Hunter Biden's substantial financial gain from sitting on the Board of Burisma was problematic for the stated US anti-corruption foreign policy at the time. This appears to be your imagination. also not disputed is that Joe Biden, as VP, threatened to withhold financial support to Ukraine if Shokin wasn't removed This was done at the behest of the entire Western world. Shokin's removal put Hunter at greater, not lesser, risk of prosecution. Facepalm Facepalm – Muboshgu (talk) 18:57, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Jon Stewart says Hunter Biden's Burisma role was 'corruption ... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/jon-stewart-hunter-biden-burisma-corruption-b2211376.html?amp 75.108.55.59 (talk) 19:12, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And Jon Stewart is an arbiter of these things? Does he say what laws were broken? Please stop reaching, it's a waste of everybody's time. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:16, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But you are you? 2600:8800:6107:4300:48D2:983B:8BD1:DB10 (talk) 23:29, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The subtitle reads: "The comedian also said the president’s son benefited from 'nepotism'" — which Merriam-Webster defines as "favoritism (as in appointment to a job) based on kinship"... except that no-one at Burisma or involved in hiring him was related to him. By Stewart's usage, Hunter Biden should not have been employed anywhere. (Added to the irony: Stewart made this comment after the Trump Administration had employed Trump's daughter and son-in-law for four years.) – •Raven  .talk 19:27, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've posted my concerns with the unabashed bias evident in this wiki article. If you feel like time is being wasted then you can certainly stop responding. Everyone who disagrees with you isn't just imagining things, what an awful and delusional thing to suggest. You have an air of intellectual and moral superiority that is not substantiated by the facts 75.108.55.59 (talk) 19:27, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've never really cared what Stewart thinks about anything, but he's just wrong here. Everyone knew Burisma was corrupt, but the company wanted to expand into partnerships with Western companies that wouldn't touch Burisma because it was corrupt. This is why Burisma hired Hunter et al. to clean it up with Western standards of corporate governance and transparency, so prospective business partners would have confidence in working with Burisma. Burisma made a slick video for prospective partners presenting Hunter et al. for that purpose. Of course it's easy to assume that because Hunter joined a corrupt company that he was hired to participate in and further corruption, but the opposite was true. I explained this years ago with sources, but I'm not gonna go find it in the archives. Try some more googling. soibangla (talk) 20:04, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
BTW I worked as a management consultant for the better part of a decade. Consultants working at the board level of a major corporation make what can seem like an obscene amount of money to outsiders, but the business is a common path to wealth, like investment banking and corporate law. There's really nothing suspicious about Hunter's income, especially if he had analysts working for him that he had to pay from his gross billings. soibangla (talk) 20:31, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
> "... not substantiated by the facts." — Were my citations above, from the article on Viktor Shokin, now NOT reliable sources of fact? Perhaps you should take that up there, or at WT:RS. – •Raven  .talk 20:07, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
not if you're using these sources which are also used as citations to this wiki article 75.108.55.59 (talk) 20:28, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
https://abc7amarillo.com/how-three-major-news-outlets-botched-a-report-about-giuliani-and-russian-disinformation 75.108.55.59 (talk) 20:28, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Although that appears to come from a reliable source, it actually originates from Sinclair Broadcast Group, which isn't. soibangla (talk) 20:44, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What is it that you think this ABC7Amarillo article proves that we haven't taken into account? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:33, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/01/media/washington-post-new-york-times-retraction-giuliani/index.html
Is this source better? I'm not going to read it for you. You are not interested in truth or acting in good faith. Did you remove the articles from these sources and all the sources referring to these articles since it's a big circle jerk of authenticity based on what each other report. 75.108.55.59 (talk) 20:46, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are you asserting there is something wrong with reliable sources making an error and dutifully correcting it? The fact that three of them made the same error suggests they all used the same source who got this one wrong, despite a record of reliability. soibangla (talk) 20:54, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is something wrong with using the original articles without corrections posted as authentic citations for your false assertions of conspiracy. Wikipedia isn't a trustworthy source of information. 75.108.55.59 (talk) 21:13, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Did we miss that correction? Please point it out so I can fix it immediately. Nobody bats 1000, you know. Nobody. soibangla (talk) 21:19, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Incidentally, I don't know whether that particular piece of information, and/or its corrected version, actually exists in any article, so unless you can show where it is, I'll have to conclude it's not actually in Wikipedia. soibangla (talk) 21:30, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We are not including any errors in this article that have since been corrected, as far as I am aware. That Rudy correction involves a minor bit in this story that I don't think is included in this article at all. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:54, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I denounce this chess piece, by itself and alone, for carrying on a campaign against the opposite side of the board. I choose to ignore the activity of all the other pieces on that side, per the precedent set by the Republican side of the Committee on Homeland Security. – •Raven  .talk 19:16, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On what basis do you say SARs are very common and most often false positives? I have worked in banking AML. Unless you are in law enforcement and can provide a source for that statement, please do not make such claims regarding SARS, Soibangla. This is a comment about Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) not anything else.--FeralOink (talk) 17:31, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just to wrap up this specious concern: Such reports flag a broad range of incidents, so as to ensure that no actual problems are overlooked. The SAR is not intrinsically noteworthy or significant. SPECIFICO talk 18:04, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A BPI study found that, in 2017, a sample of the largest banks reviewed approximately 16 million alerts, filed over 640,000 SARs, and received feedback from law enforcement on a median of 4% of those SARs. Ultimately, this means that 90-95% of the individuals that banks report on were likely innocent ... Our data indicate that about 4 percent of SARs result in any follow-up from law enforcement. A tiny subset of these results in an arrest and ultimately a conviction.[1]

soibangla (talk) 18:12, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
soibangla, your source is a banking advocacy group; BPI doesn't satisfy WP:NPOV. Secondly, law enforcement does not provide SARs feedback to filing institutions. That's a major challenge in validating SARs for BSA/AML model risk management (MRM) per Fed Reserve Letter SR 11-7 (November 2011). I'll cite my source, about law enforcement not giving feedback, updated Guidance for BSA/AML, see p.4 as of April 2021: "testing and performance monitoring for some BSA/AML models may not include the same techniques as other models because of various factors, such as the lack of information about realized outcomes (e.g., Suspicious Activity Reports)". Banks cannot disclose the existence of SARs to anyone other than regulators or for enforcement purposes. See 12 CFR 21.11(k) Confidentiality of SARs; however you're right about high rates of false positives for sanctions screening! I thank you for pointing that out to me.--FeralOink (talk) 20:17, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SPECIFICO, the "broad range of incidents" associated with SARs are noteworthy and include much more than sanctions, e.g. $10,000 or more in cash transactions in one day or layering/structuring to avoid getting caught; being politically important, i.e. a "politically exposed person" (PEP) or a relative of one; wire transfers to or from tax havens; lots of frequent, large transactions in developing economies; doing business in countries under sanctions. It is not WP:GOODFAITH to describe my concern as specious. I would suggest the following as a response to that editor Salem196027's comment: If Hunter's SARs are significant, then law enforcement such as FinCEN will investigate them. Since we have no WP:RS sources about the SARs, we can't include them in the article.--FeralOink (talk) 20:17, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The allegations were not false though. Barisma is true and whistleblowers show Joe "Big Guy" was involved. You leftist s are really sick people. 2601:2C3:CD00:2865:D9B7:1:B818:5720 (talk) 18:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
well we're sorry you feel that way, but there's been lots of lying and innuendo about all this for years but there remains no evidence Joe did anything unlawful or unethical, or even that he's lied about any of this. I recommend ignoring what Comer and Hannity say, among many others saying similar things. they're not being straight-up with you.[2] soibangla (talk) 19:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On the contrary, my advice would be to continue examining the facts being unearthed by the United States House Oversight Committee investigation into the Biden family, and appreciate that much more is forthcoming. There has been excellent reporting of this in conservative media, such as The Federalist (website), FrontPage Magazine, The Washington Free Beacon, Townhall, The Washington Times, and the Washington Examiner. Miranda Devine has also done an exquisite job outlining the allegations of corruption in the New York Post. Be aware, some conservative media has been deemed "unreliable" for use on Wikipedia, per WP:RSP, so you may have to dig to find reliable sources in order to add this topic to articles. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Lol, those "sources" are dumpster fires of Russian and alt/far-right propaganda. They are not and never will be usable in the Wikipedia. Zaathras (talk) 21:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your opinion is a small minority one. Wikipedia shows up on Google, itself a bastion of selection bias, as one of the rare places where the Biden's influence peddling scheme is not recognized as well documented. In source after source, the pyramid of 20 bank accounts for Biden money laundering is treated as fact. Not so here. Unfortunately, Wikipedia has made itself into a laughing stock. Credible sources? Get real. You have to do fact checking on gibberish like that portrayed here, the majority opinion of the media and public have no need to do so. 142.165.171.201 (talk) 04:23, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
no influence peddling scheme has been documented. there's a whole buncha LLCs that are commonly used by many to structure complex financial deals, for various tax and legal reasons, and there's still no evidence Joe was involved in any way. In source after source, the pyramid of 20 bank accounts for Biden money laundering is treated as fact. Not so here because it isn't fact. soibangla (talk) 04:43, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"because it isn't fact." It is another item of slander in the increasingly annoying Republican propaganda. I tend to tune out whenever I hear such claims. Dimadick (talk) 08:39, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This section has ended up exactly where it started out, ie WP:FORUM...DN (talk) 04:53, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"don't use Google!"...(cackles in Alex Jones)... DN (talk) 07:21, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How could you label it “false” when it’s still under investigation and both democrats and republicans have confirmed the laptop is real? The truth is none of us know whether it happened or not, but I believe just labeling it false is a bad characterization and looks like bias towards a theory that very well could be true and is under investigation. Just a thought to better educate the readers as to where it stands now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:14E:80:46D0:29B4:F206:B42F:2E61 (talk) 06:15, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think you mean Hunter Biden laptop controversy. soibangla (talk) 13:00, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of this page

The phrase conspiracy is used frequently and incorrectly on this page including the title. Biden’s business dealings in Ukraine while his father was overseeing Ukraine policy as vice president are proven fact. My question is why is this disinformation remaining in the site? Mav214 (talk) 20:22, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Biden’s business dealings in Ukraine while his father was overseeing Ukraine policy as vice president are indeed proven fact. Beyond that, there is no evidence they are connected. None. soibangla (talk) 20:25, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are you willing to stand by that statement still? 2603:7081:2339:86E8:5496:5D4B:78B3:5504 (talk) 22:27, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The false allegations are about Joe Biden, not his son. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:43, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. This should not be labeled as a "conspiracy " as many facts and credible news sources are now showing that the sated alligations could be valid. Labeling a subject a "conspiracy theory" leads the viewer to disbelieve statments herein as untrue and or false, which can persuade the said viewer to come to a conclusion that is not fully factulal. Disinformation hurts everyone. Thank you. 72.28.4.89 (talk) 00:17, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Labeling this as a conspiracy theory should lead the reader to disbelieve it, because the idea that Joe Biden personally benefited from Hunter's Burisma dealings has no evidence to support it, as James Comer's nothingburger press conference today demonstrates. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
James Comer, the obscure politician from Kentucky? Who pays attention to his rambling? Dimadick (talk) 04:32, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What is all the money for? What are all the shell companies for?
What is the biden family business?
This page is as corrupt as the Biden administration and should be removed. 72.142.65.10 (talk) 17:42, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Conjecture and hearsay is unbecoming. This thread should be archived as it is not a serious attempt to improve the article, but rather an attempt to push a biased narrative. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:23, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No evidence? https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-allegedly-paid-5-million-by-burisma-executive 2601:48:8101:4720:6859:E2:8BEA:634E (talk) 03:05, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That article is incorrect, the 1023 did not say that soibangla (talk) 03:16, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to correct my statement. The article is not incorrect. It is a huge lie of epic proportions. soibangla (talk) 03:35, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:FOXNEWS is not a reliable source on this subject. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:38, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not all content is "conspiracy theory"; title and content need changing

This is an umbrella article for "allegations that Joe Biden, while he was vice president of the United States, engaged in corrupt activities relating to the employment of his son, Hunter Biden, by the Ukrainian gas company Burisma."

Under that umbrella, is the work of the United States House Oversight Committee investigation into the Biden family, an article mentioned in the lead, and an investigation which is also exploring bribery, Biden and Ukraine.

The Oversight Committee's investigation is ongoing, and is currently receiving significant media coverage. Moreover, reliable sources describing that committees work use the term "allegations", not "conspiracy theories":

  • Axios, on June 14, 2023, refers to "unproven bribery allegations involving the Bidens and Ukraine."
  • The Independent, on June 15, 2023, refers to "allegations of bribery from his time as vice president".

Because the Oversight Committee's investigation is included briefly in this article, the title of the article, and some descriptions within the article, does not accurately reflect all of the content, and certainly violates WP:POVTITLE. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:52, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing that has changed is that Republicans won the House and decided to use their majority to make another Hillary/Benghazi committee to smear their opponent. The "allegations" are a slightly morphed version of the same conspiracy theory. Its just changed from having the focus of "Biden fired Ehokin" to "the big guy" getting money. No evidence had been produced, so how is this not the same conspiracy theory? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:53, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed nor did a Republican House Oversight Committee investigation by May 2023 and its reference to fully constrain the article to the Ukraine conspiracy theory. Readers can refer to the Comer investigation article for as yet unproven allegations. Hope that suffices. soibangla (talk) 19:56, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First, Muboshgu, please leave your personal opinions out of this discussion. Reliable sources have been provided. The name and some content needs to be changed. Second, Soibangla, removing pertinent content which has been appropriately placed into an article is disruptive. Please revert your edit. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:01, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's not my opinion. McCarthy himself noted that House Republicans set up the Benghazi committee to hurt Hillary politically. This is the same. Two recent sources don't undo the past elements of conspiracy theorizing. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:05, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I believe my edit adequately addressed your concern about distinguishing unproven allegations from conspiracy theories. Did it not? soibangla (talk) 20:06, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Soibangla: You removed pertinent content and a link which had been appropriately placed into an article. Please revert your edit. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:09, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
From what I can tell, this thread you opened made a distinction between the Biden-Shokin-Ukraine conspiracy theory and the ongoing Comer investigation which includes that but is also broader than that, including China and Romania and such. By removing the content about the Comer investigation, I believe I drew the clear distinction you requested. soibangla (talk) 20:16, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Soibangla: In the article United States House Oversight Committee investigation into the Biden family, the word "Ukraine" or "Ukrainian" is mentioned 11 times, in ten different paragraphs. That article also contains a link to this article. Removing a link and discussion about that article--in response to my concerns above--was not appropriate. Please revert your edit. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:32, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused, you want to change the title of this article because of the link to the other article, but now that the link is gone you want it back as to keep pushing for consensus to change the title? Please correct me if that's not accurate. DN (talk) 20:38, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Darknipples:A previous version of this article said, "A joint investigation by two Republican Senate committees released in September 2020 did not find wrongdoing by Joe Biden, nor did a Republican House Oversight Committee investigation by May 2023." After I wrote my comment above, User:Soibangla simply removed the link to the Republican House Oversight Committee investigation. I guess that editor believed that was the easiest way to avoid having to discuss changing the name of this article. You are welcome to revert the edit, so we can begin this discussion. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:48, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen multiple RS that use the term "Conspiracy theory" on this topic, throughout this article, and in the article you mentioned. While both articles have similar topics, they aren't the same. If you want to build a consensus to change the title here there are better ways of doing so. While Soibangla's edit may not address your issue with the title, using a separate article to sway consensus over another is not necessarily admirable either, if that was your point. DN (talk) 21:15, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As a discrete unit, this article remains about a conspiracy theory, not merely unproven allegations. The Comer article is broader in scope and may include parts of this conspiracy. That's why I removed the Comer content here to draw the distinction you requested. I don't know how else to clarify this to you. I gave you what you wanted, but if what you really want is to change the title of this article to "allegations" based on Comer's feeble results thus far, including bribery which is not pertinent to this article, I will resist that. Please stop pinging me, it's a nuisance. soibangla (talk) 20:46, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Magnolia677, we have two different articles that are tangentially related, this one and United States House Oversight Committee investigation into the Biden family. When the Oversight Committee's investigation finds clear evidence of wrongdoing by Joe Biden in direct connection to Ukraine and his son, then, and only then, will this article be retitled and change its focus. So far, the conspiracy theory has been based on false and misleading allegations. We need proof that they are true before we need to change the focus and title of this article. We are not there yet. Be patient, your wish may end up being fulfilled. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:59, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Valjean: Should a link and information about the United States House Oversight Committee investigation into the Biden family be included in this article? Magnolia677 (talk) 21:40, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Now they both link to each other in their See also sections. The idea of a section about each other isn't totally off-limits. What would you propose? Done properly, both articles could have sections about each other, as long as they are minimal (like a short paragraph) and do not violate WP:COATRACK. Since the idea is controversial, I suggest you propose such content on the respective talk pages. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me)
@Valjean: Great idea. Instead of all that though, let's just reverting this edit that was made about an hour ago? That content had been in for over a month. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:01, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would not object to you restoring the removal I made to accommodate your request here, as I originally added that content. soibangla (talk) 22:12, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have an idea. Maybe it will work...or maybe not. What about creating a section to deal with investigations of the claims, and then put that content there? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:16, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
sure, as long as it's constrained to what Comer has specifically said about the subject of this article, but not wander off into unrelated stuff like bribery. that's all in the Comer investigation article. soibangla (talk) 22:23, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Either way, if the intent here is to change the title, then that needs to be addressed in a more genuine and explicit manner. If the issue has now turned into a means of making each article less contentious with the other, I will support. DN (talk) 22:31, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, yes, that is why I started this discussion. Now that information about the House Committee has been added back, and because media reports about Biden, Ukraine and bribery are not being presented as "conspiratorial", with even left-wing media are calling them "allegations"; and because the first line of this article states that it is about "allegations that Joe Biden, while he was vice president of the United States, engaged in corrupt activities relating to the employment of his son, Hunter Biden, by the Ukrainian gas company Burisma", continuing to name this article using "conspiracy" would certainly violate WP:POVTITLE and be misleading for readers. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:39, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How about calling it "Biden–Ukraine corruption allegations". This would dovetail into the first line of the article, and would support both the conspiracy content, and the unproven allegations currently being investigated. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:50, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comer is investigating a broad array of allegations. This article is about a discrete and established conspiracy theory. Anything beyond a brief paragraph linking to directly related aspects in the Comer investigation would be confusing at the least, and actually misleading by blurring what we know with what we don't know. And that's exactly how conspiracy theories grow and spread. soibangla (talk) 23:01, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the line about the Comer committee to make the distinction between a discrete conspiracy theory and a broader set of allegations, as you requested. If your intent of restoring that line was to leverage it as means of changing the title of this article to merely "allegations," I will oppose that. soibangla (talk) 22:52, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the intent here bares too much resemblance to an attempt at a Trojan Horse for me to support a title change. It has less to do with addressing context and more to do with a perceived POV issue. I will let others weigh in on this tactic as well. DN (talk) 22:55, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hell no. A section, not a title change. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:58, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no valid reason to change the article title, the source of all of this, as it has always been, is unhinged conservative talking about alleging various and sundry dealings by the Biden family. All without evidence. Zaathras (talk) 03:46, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"unhinged conservative talking about alleging various and sundry dealings by the Biden family" It is good old-fashioned mudslinging. And the old proverbial saying remains accurate in the 21st century: Give a dog a bad name and hang him. The slanderers have done a good job of destroying Biden's reputation. Dimadick (talk) 07:27, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Magnolia677 Did you make a false claim in your edit summary that there was a consensus to re-add this just so you can claim the title needs to be changed? DN (talk) 03:31, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly this "name change" proposal was premature. Comer plans to subpoena more people and records in order to unravel the family's complex web of financial dealings, and probe the alleged bribery scheme involving Biden when he was vice president. So let's revisit this "conspiracy" stuff when that's done. Thanks for your time. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:56, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please be sure to avoid WP:PROCEDURALLYFLAWEDCONSENSUS if you decide to return. DN (talk) 16:20, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure Darknipples, I'll be sure to take your advice on how to edit. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:52, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that it's premature. The article is not about a hypothetical influential secret organization. Also, an allegation not having been proven true doesn't justify labeling it as false, so the way that the article is written currently was premature. If the allegations are proven to be untrue, then and only then will it be proper to state as fact that they're false. OckRaz talk 06:14, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Approve Change For the reasons listed above. The various rationalizations above merely highlight the increasingly blatant POV pushing from ideologues. Lexlex (talk)
    "The various rationalizations above merely highlight the increasingly blatant POV pushing from ideologues." This sounds like you are attacking editors personally instead discussing the argument. DN (talk) 16:05, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That is not what it sounds like. OckRaz talk 06:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Approve Changefor the reasons cited by Magnolia677. --Loltardo (talk) 02:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opposew Change Magnolia677 is clearly violating POV by suggestingf that the House Oversight Committee is actually investigating anything, rather than just wasting time and taxpayers' money. I see no reason to legitimize its propaganda. Dimadick (talk) 08:44, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Approve Change This article is about an unproven allegation of some sort of misconduct (what laws may have been broken would depend on elements of the accusation which aren't defined), and the allegation might qualify as a "criminal conspiracy but that is unclear." Even if it were entirely clear that every version of the allegation concerns a criminal conspiracy, the combination of "conspiracy" and "theory" together would still be misleading. The phrase refers to "a belief that some secret but influential organization is responsible for an event or phenomenon." An unproven allegation about a bribery scheme definitely does not fit that definition. "Biden–Ukraine corruption allegations" is a far better title. There was never any justification for using the word conspiracy in the title in the first place. OckRaz talk 05:58, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OckRaz: This article is about a specific allegation made years ago that has been shown by multiple reliable sources to be false. The article does not encompass other allegations made in recent months, including bribery. For that, see Comer investigation of Biden family. soibangla (talk) 07:21, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that I understand your position. You claim there's justification for the article declaring that the Biden-Ukraine allegations are false rather than unproven. As I understand it, that justification is merely that this "article is about a specific allegation... shown... to be false." That's effectively a circular argument for justification and would require a further justification for why we should take such an approach to defining the subject matter of the article. There's no reason to accept the premise that the subject matter for the article ought to be circumscribed so that it doesn't focus on theories about Biden engaging in corrupt activity involving Ukraine, but only the particular versions of this theory that include falsified details (eg, motive to protect your family vs to enrich family or prosecutor investigating family member vs prosecutor potentially hindering foreign business deal).
I don't think that approach makes sense if your goal is to create a reference work that will be as useful as possible for the typical reader. If someone just wants to get up to speed on what "Biden-Ukraine corruption" refers to (and depending on your perspective it could be a controversy or political scandal or partisan accusations made without proof), then your preference regarding how to divide the information into different articles will be most unhelpful. Instead of finding an article designed to give an overview of Biden-Ukraine corruption allegations, they'd have to sort through two separate articles for no good reason that I can discern.
What is the justification for dividing the allegations into two categories, as you propose we should do? Why does it make sense to take just the set of allegations that can be definitively ruled out and give them their own article, but then put the Biden-Ukraine allegations which remain an open question into the same basket with completely different allegations and the activities of a congressional committee. It has the appearance of editorial gerrymandering. If anything, the accusations that are an open question ought to be treated as of greater importance and being more noteworthy than discarded allegations. Your approach gets that relationship reversed. OckRaz talk 14:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I hasten to add that while information from the recently released 1023 form has generated significant heat in certain circles, it remains raw and uncorroborated intelligence that originated from a dubious source, Mykola Zlochevsky, and remains unconfirmed by reliable sources. At this point, it's somewhat akin to relying on the Steele dossier. soibangla (talk) 07:39, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
re: "generated significant heat in certain circles" - I'd say it's generated heat everywhere, depending on your definition of heat. It's certainly raised the temperature politically. However, the recent news isn't relevant to the claim I'm making: this article is wrongly titled because there's no conspiracy theory, merely an accusation about a crime. I don't think that it's reasonable to say that every allegation of a crime with multiple participants (ie, a basic criminal conspiracy) will meet the ordinary definition of conspiracy theory. You seem to disagree with me. Where do you see a shadowy cabal in this scenario to justify the use of the term, "conspiracy theory?" OckRaz talk 14:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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