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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 92.27.140.0 (talk) at 11:06, 19 August 2023 (→Public Inquiry: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


merge

Should we merge this with Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders? PatGallacher (talk) 13:53, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lucy Letby is notable enough for a separate article, though a lot of what's on that page could be merged with this one. --87.114.4.172 (talk) 14:08, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, per WP:1E. Currently it is the event that is notable and Letby was not known before her trial in relation to it. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:14, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

::Support moving the merged article to "Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders" per WP:1E. Dormskirk (talk) 15:04, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the merge. WP:1E applies here. Nigej (talk) 15:20, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can leave it as it is. I note that 3 similar cases mentioned at the bottom of the article are biographies of the killer. PatGallacher (talk) 16:18, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And what about WP:1E? Let's take the doubt away, and move it to the notable subject - the "Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders" article per the discussion on the talkpage there.
As time progresses things may change, and the murderer may become notable, as with the other articles you mentioned, but they haven't yet. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:26, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the reality is that it isn't just one event necessarily. This is an accumulation of lots of events over a 12-month period, granted they have been merged into one criminal case. If it was one victim it would be "Murder of ...." and if it was multiple people murdered all at once it would be "<year> <location> murders." This case however involves numerous victims being murdered on separate occasions over 12 months with gaps in between. The same person was linked to all these events. The only way you could look at it as a single event is if you looked at it as one criminal case with all the crimes merged into one case. This is why cases such as Harold Shipman, Beverley Allitt and Colin Norris all have standalone biographical articles. That's my thinking anyway. TLJ7863 (talk) 17:17, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think she's pretty notable already, with the amount of TV coverage. PatGallacher (talk) 16:32, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's a fair way to do it to have the case redirect to the perpetrator now that one has been proven. If Wikipedia had existed in Harold Shipman's time then it would have been the same way, there would be a page for the excess deaths even all the way through the trial, until it was proven that he was the perpetrator. The news, and not just the tabloids, have been describing Letby as a person, and how her background and personality made her a highly unlikely serial murderer. [1] [2] [3] Unknown Temptation (talk) 16:40, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that the case should stay redirected to the perpetrator. She's already being described as the most prolific child killer in modern UK history, and I doubt very much that will change anytime soon. Letby is also being described as a person by numerous reliable sources, and has been the focus of the case since her arrest in 2018. --87.114.4.172 (talk) 17:08, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Attempted murders

Seems she has been convicted of 7 attempted murder but 2 of these were on the same baby, so only 6 babies. Statements like "Letby was found guilty of seven murders and six attempted murders." are confusing when other parts of the article talk about 7 attempted murders. "... and attempting to murder seven others" seems to be factually incorrect. Nigej (talk) 15:29, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Easy solution here is to clarify the correct number of babies she either murdered or attempted to. There's been numerous reliable sources published about her today alone, so I'm sure it will be clarified in due time. --87.114.4.172 (talk) 17:03, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Photo

Is there a necessity to having a photo of Letby?

Generally ([List_of_serial_killers_in_the_United_Kingdom]), it doesn't seem to be the case where a photo is attached to the Wikipedia page of a convicted serial killer. 87.74.110.45 (talk) 17:39, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Corrected link: List of serial killers in the United Kingdom 87.74.110.45 (talk) 17:40, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If someone is notable enough for an article, and there is a good image available, with no licensing issues, it should be included. It doesn't matter if they are a saint or a sinner. Edison (talk) 21:39, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In fact Schwede66 has just removed it on the basis of this deletion discussion - although I would have thought the fact she's now in prison means that "taking a new free picture as a replacement" was an impossibility so is within the WP:NFC#UUI exception. But I'm no expert. DeCausa (talk) 21:54, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The best-known case for criterion 1 was Kim Jong Un. Proponents of that criterion applying argued that it was impossible to go to North Korea to take a photo of him. However, that was not upheld and for years, we did not have a photo for Kim Jong Un. Schwede66 21:59, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the fact she's still alive somehow means the mugshot photo can't be used. Joe Exotic is still alive too and yet a mugshot is used on his page. --87.114.4.172 (talk) 22:21, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Non-free images of living people are not acceptable. The Joe Exotic image is public domain, so completely different case. Joseph2302 (talk) 23:01, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alright thank you for the clarification on that one. Do you know if Harold Shipman's mugshot is also public domain? --87.114.4.172 (talk) 10:27, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

BLP policy? She may appeal

As sources are saying an appeal is likely, I'm not sure we should say she's a killer in Wikipedia's voice yet. We can say she was convicted of being a killer (but it might still be overturned on appeal). Is that correct BLP policy? 194.154.172.125 (talk) 18:32, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As it stands the jury have decided that Lucy Letby did commit these offences and have convicted her. There shouldn't be an issue with using the term "serial killer" or other terms unless the convictions are successfully overturned following her appeal. TLJ7863 (talk) 18:43, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLPCRIME: A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. With her conviction, calling her a murderer/serial killer is consistent with policy. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to call anyone a murderer following a conviction on the possibility of any supposed appeal. DeCausa (talk) 19:32, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
She has been convicted so it makes sense to describe her as a murderer/serial killer. I wouldn't fancy her chances at an appeal. If I were in her shoes I'd be expecting a life sentence, which is what she will most likely receive, so I doubt she'll ever see the light of day again. As the above user pointed out, calling her a murderer/serial killer is consistent with policy. --87.114.4.172 (talk) 20:27, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is a fact that she was convicted of a crime, however this does not mean it is a fact that she committed the crime. For Wikipedia to be a source of accuracy, this detail should be included where appropriate. 2A02:C7C:3744:2E00:1C9D:A7C6:2028:8982 (talk) 22:02, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It seems clear that she was convicted. A "confession" of a few words on a PostIt seems to be the only evidence of guilt listed in the article. The article does not seem to state any strong evidence beyond opportunity. It is correct to say she was convicted, and per typical usage to say she is a serial killer. . Edison (talk) 22:06, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) There's no practical difference. If there was, then no person could ever be said to be responsible for a crime. Conviction is the best evidence of it. DeCausa (talk) 22:08, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A criminal conviction can only be regarded as wrongful and non-factual if it is quashed by the Court of Appeals. Until then it is to regarded as fact. TLJ7863 (talk) 22:11, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding this as fact is a viewpoint and is not what the policy states. This conviction, and of course many others, could be reversed at a future date. I do not wish to labour the point, but it is a process has labelled her a murderer. It seems the motivation to omit this detail is to maintain consistency between articles. Considering the lack of scientific process followed in many trials, this detail itself should be more consistently included in articles. 2A02:C7C:3744:2E00:1C9D:A7C6:2028:8982 (talk) 22:42, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What detail? Are you saying that every reference to every conviction throughout Wikipedia should have a "health warning" that it could be reversed? That's absurd. DeCausa (talk) 07:28, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
and the prisons are full of people claiming their innocence. Are we not allowed to say that they committed the crime, only that they were convicted of it. Nigej (talk) 07:43, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do not see it as absurd to implicitly remind readers from the outset that the subject has been convicted, but that this does not make it fact. As an example, Joint Enterprise laws can result in by passers being convicted of murder, when they themselves did not commit the murder. If Wikipedia regards legal outcomes as defining absolute truth, then so be it. 2A02:C7C:3744:2E00:F8A2:39D3:4347:8C6B (talk) 08:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:TRUTH. If you want an RS that calls her a murderer, see 1, 2. NM 08:42, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Go and find an article about a "passer-by" murderer and point that out there. It's not relevant to this article. We follow the WP:RS - reliable sources - and they call her a serial killer.[4][5] There's nothing, so far, in the RS doubting this conviction. We don't do WP:CRYSTALBALLs and we don't right great wrongs. For the moment, per Wikipedia policy, "she did it". DeCausa (talk) 08:45, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This does not concern crystal ball gazing or righting wrongs via Wikipedia. My example relates to the broader problem of equating legal outcomes to fact. As I write above, if this is policy, then fine, and the community consensus is clear here. 2A02:C7C:3744:2E00:F8A2:39D3:4347:8C6B (talk) 09:08, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is an issue for an article about the British legal system. Having to mention it in every article about every legal case would be ridiculous. We can't say Harold Shipman was a mass murderer, only that he was convicted of multiple murders? As noted Wikipedia policy is to follow what reliable sources say. Nigej (talk) 09:19, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the IP might be misunderstanding WP policy. The conviction per se isn't the determinant - it's how the WP:RS report the conviction. In the case of Letby there's no doubt being placed on her guilt by the RS, so that's what we reflect. However, we don't say that Alexei Navalny is an "embezzler" and "extremist" because that's what he was convicted of. We reflect how the RS treat those convictions. DeCausa (talk) 09:28, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Opening sentence

User:Asperthrow objects to including "who, from 2015 to 2016, killed, or attempted to kill, infants in her care." at the opening sentence. I think without it the opening sentence is too stumpy and omits the basic nature of the serial killing - which all other serial killers normally have. see for example Jeffrey Dahmer, Rose West or Dennis Nilsen. Opinions? DeCausa (talk) 10:10, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely should mention the crime in the opening sentence. It is why she is notable. --87.114.4.172 (talk) 10:28, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support keeping the phrase. Without it, the first paragraph is much too short. Nigej (talk) 10:32, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mr Justice Goss linked twice in trial section

Only one link to his page is necessary. Can the other be removed? 87.114.4.172 (talk) 10:54, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done. DeCausa (talk) 10:58, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Public Inquiry

The government has instituted an Independent Non-judicial Inquiry, not a Public Inquiry. as the paragraph heading states. 92.27.140.0 (talk) 11:06, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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