The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been designated as a contentious topic.
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning the September 11 attacks.
To view an explanation to the answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question.
Q1: Is the article biased against conspiracy theories?
A1: Wikipedia is a mainstream encyclopedia so this article presents the accepted version of the events according to reliable sources. Although reliable sources have repeatedly reported on conspiracy theories, reporting on conspiracy theories is not the same thing as advocating conspiracy theories or accepting them as fact. The most recent discussion that resulted in the current consensus took place on this talk page in December 2011. If you disagree with the current status, you are welcome to bring your concerns to the article talk page. Please read the previous discussions on this talk page and try to explain how your viewpoint provides new arguments or information that may lead to a change in consensus. Please be sure to be polite and support your views with citations from reliable sources.
Q2: Should the article use the word "terrorist" (and related words)?
A2: Wikipedia:Words to watch states that "there are no forbidden words or expressions on Wikipedia". That being said, "terrorism" is a word that requires extra attention when used in Wikipedia. The consensus, after several lengthy discussions, is that it is appropriate to use the term in a limited fashion to describe the attacks and the executors of these attacks. The contributors have arrived at this conclusion after looking at the overwhelming majority of reliable sources that use this term as well as the United Nations' own condemnation of the attacks.[1]
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
September 11 attacks is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
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While most of these are likely true, it seems excessive. Infoboxes should be a brief overview of the page, so brevity is best. I'd like to suggest we revert these changes. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 20:57, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The previous image depicted the towers after being attacked, so I assume the aim was to put one of the crashes on display instead. It's certainly not the photograph I would've opted for, though. Hmm1994 (talk) 22:50, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I know 2,996 people died but since two new victims were identified, does this increase the victim count to 2,979, and total to 2,998? They were identified back in September this year. 120.28.224.231 (talk) 12:52, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
UPDATE: Nevermind, Indentified means finding information about unindentified victims while found means finding new victims' bodies. so it's still 2,977 + 19 = 2,996 not 2,979 + 19 = 2,998 120.28.224.231 (talk) 12:56, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Lead section paragraphs; improvements to writing quality throughout article
I have made several edits to this article for clarity and readability that are all being reverted due to the lead being longer than four paragraphs.
Per the MOS the number of lead paragraphs is not a rule, but a general guideline. Given the length of this article and for the sake of readability, citing this guideline as a rule results in important elements being lost in unreasonable long paragraphs. This results in the article being unnecessarily difficult to read and parse.
It's not my intention to disrupt, but rather to make the article accessible and readable to a large audience. I'd greatly appreciate any feedback or clarification on the way forward. VHarbee (talk) 14:55, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@VHarbee, let's analyze your changes. Although the Wiki guideline is to have four paragraphs maximum, you introduced 10 instead.
You made the line "The attacks killed nearly 3,000 people and instigated the multi-decade global war on terror" a paragraph itself; IMO it should either be in the first or the fourth paragraph.
Then you changed The first impact was that of American Airlines Flight 11, which ringleader Muhammad Atta crashed into the North Tower of the World Trade Center complex in Lower Manhattan at 8:46 a.m" to "American Airlines Flight 11 was the first plane to crash, hitting the North Tower of the World Trade Center complex in Lower Manhattan at 8:46 a.m." The ringleader of the attacks, Atta, was removed from this, so was "8:46 a.m".
Then you changed "A third flight, American Airlines Flight 77, crashed into the Pentagon at 9:37 a.m., causing a partial collapse to "American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon at 9:37 a.m., causing a partial collapse". I don't know why "third flight" was removed here. Also you made this line another paragraph.
You made the fourth flight, United Airlines Flight 93, a paragraph too. The leads are meant to be summarized not expanded, making more paragraphs isn't much helpful. Would appreciate a reply! Hezbollaist15:19, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My thinking was to separate discrete points into their own paragraphs so they can be seen even if a reader is skimming a bit. In my experience readers do tend to do that when encountering long paragraphs, particularly at the beginning of a piece of writing. As the article stands now, the death toll, key 'players' (for my lack of a better word), and other important information feels buried.
However I can also see your argument for consolidation and/or reorganization. I am all for whatever it takes to help the article become more easily readable and understood, and understand that ten paragraphs is too much.
"The attacks killed nearly 3,000 people and instigated the multi-decade global war on terror"
I could see that information being in the first paragraph, given its importance to the topic.
"The first impact was that of American Airlines Flight 11, which ringleader Muhammad Atta crashed into the North Tower of the World Trade Center complex in Lower Manhattan at 8:46 a.m" to "American Airlines Flight 11 was the first plane to crash, hitting the North Tower of the World Trade Center complex in Lower Manhattan at 8:46 a.m."
In this case I removed mention of the ringleader due to how much it adds to and slows down the reading of this sentence; if that is crucial to the lead I could rewrite to include it. I also cleaned up redundant phrasing and filler words that for most readers will impede readability. I'm not clear on why phrases such as "The first impact was that of" are better suited for this article vs. my revision as noted in blue above. I did not remove the time of that impact, though I did for the second impact because the already already stated it was 16 minutes later, making an additional mention of the time redundant.
I removed the specific reference to the 'third flight' because two other flights had just been mentioned, and when a new flight number is given it's understood to refer to a third flight.
I also cleaned up a great deal of phrasing from the opening paragraph that does not add to the subject matter, such as what direction the flights were traveling, and this was also reverted for reasons I'm unclear on.
I'm not in favor of 10 paragraphs, I do think 4 were fine as they were in the GA review. I do disagree with the removal of time in the third plane crash as the exact time is mentioned for the first, second and fourth plane crash. The note f also looks tidier after the comma. However, I do the think the last paragraph needs some revision. Here's what I say, the first paragraph should be a general introduction, the second should be about the crashes, the third about the reasons for the attacks and the immediate U.S. response and the fourth and final one about legacy and memory of the attacks. Hezbollaist (talk) 16:48, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because the other three impacts are described using the planes and not the names of the suicide pilots, the only change with which I agree is the omission of Mohamed Atta from the lead, unless the focus of the sentence is supposed to be on his being the ringleader. Hmm1994 (talk) 15:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hmm1994, I do understand your view. However, I personally think Atta should be mentioned here as he was the ringleader, the 18 other hijackers weren't. The leads also have Osama bin Laden and not other al-Qaeda members because bin Laden was the mastermind of the attacks, despite Khalid Sheikh Mohammed actually having a more prominent role in the planning of the attacks. That is why I believe Atta should be in the leads. It seems we won't reach an agreement here, and that's cool. I guess it's best to let others chime in. Thanks for the discussion. Hezbollaist (talk) 16:48, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hezbollaist Oh, no disagreement on my end. Initially I wasn't entirely sure if the sentence was trying to place emphasis on his role as the ringleader or he was randomly mentioned when the other three weren't. Hmm1994 (talk) 16:56, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how Wikipedia will handle this one. The official victim toll of 2,977 actually does include three people who died not from the initial attack, but of illnesses related to it, which is what raised the 'official' number of victims to 2,977 from 2,974. This is an issue which troubles me because hundreds have died of illnesses brought on by toxic exposure, including the 343 firefighters and EMTs you cited, yet only three were recorded. Hmm1994 (talk) 06:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's going to be a problem for reliable sources to handle. We need them to document deaths as officially resulting from the events of 9/11, before we can add them to the article. And I have a feeling very few will be willing to do that. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite17:32, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2023
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Spelling error. Section 2.3 Damages. 5th paragraph begins with "fhe Pentagon was extensively damaged...", and should be "The" instead of "fhe". Alexrnau (talk) 08:38, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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