Talk:Aryanization

Disambiguation

I think the disambiguation should refer to the specific relevant article. In indology the term "Ayanization" means process of the expansion of Vedic/Brahminical culture over India. There is a problem, which is that the "I-A M" article barely addresses this issue because it is so locked into the "pro and con" mode of argument, so there is no clear historical account of the history of the spread of Vedic ideas across the subcontinent. If any better article to link to exists then add it, but I think the disambiguation page would just be confusing. Paul B 15:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

addendum: At one point this article discussed both meanings [1]. Paul B 15:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Aryanization is not Germanization

The article is completely without sources/citations. It mixed up several related but clearly distinct phenomena. Thus I cut from the text two subsections that do not relate well to the main meaning:

Non-Jews

Aryanisation primarily affected Jews, since they often held influential professional positions from which the Nazis wished to "purge" them. However, laws against intermarriage between Aryans and non-Aryans also affected the small black and mixed race population of Germany, as well as Slavic people (i.e. ethnic Poles, Silesians, Czechs, Slovaks, Sorbians and so on) who were also considered to be "sub-human" by the Nazis. The Roma (Gypsies) provided a problem since they were technically Aryan (as native speakers of an Indo-Aryan language), but were deemed by the Nazis to be an "alien" race or non-European, and were "racially tainted". After a period of ambiguity, Roma were treated as "non-Aryan".

Nordicizing conquered peoples

After the occupation of Czechoslovakia and the invasion of Poland, the Nazis were keen to "improve" the racial make-up of those areas that were intended to form a permanent part of the Greater Germany. People were judged according to Nordicist (cf. Nordic race) ideals of racial identity. Those who conformed to this ideal were more likely to be Germanised than those who did not. This process is sometimes referred to as "Aryanisation", though strictly speaking this is a misnomer, since Czechs, Slovaks, and Poles were categorised as Aryan.

Best regards, --Trinitrix (talk) 18:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Aryanization of Slavs removal

This bit of the article is unnecessary and the Nazis never spoke of "Aryanization" of Slavs when Slavs were already regarded as Aryans by them.--Battersy Dogs Homes (talk) 10:02, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Paul Barlow, tell me why this is necessary to keep when Slavs were never even spoken of being Aryanized or anything of the kind considering they were even regarded as "racially Aryan", why does it need to be kept?--Battersy Dogs Homes (talk) 11:24, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Your view is not supported by the cited reference. I have restored the text you removed. Binksternet (talk) 16:39, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

The source does not speak about Aryanization of the Slavs all it speaks about is that Slavs were regarded as untermenschen (subhumans) although in reality Slavs was nothing more than linguistic group. It does not mention any of the names listed and all the other information is irrelevant to this article.

The source Europe at War 1939-1945: No Simple Victory (p. 167) says this: "ones were judged capable of Germanization and those in the lower ones, including the Slavs, were classed as untermenschen, or 'subhumans'. In reality the Slavs are nothing more than a linguistic group. But the fact that various Slavonic nations - such as the Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Czechs and Serbs - make up the majority of Eastern Europe's population, heralded a revolution in the region's ethnic national patterns. According to the GeneralPlan Ost, which the SS drew up in 1940, the racial reconstruction scheme was designed to stretch as far as the Urals, with millions of undesirables being expelled to Asia and Siberia. But for practical purposes, the key question was how much time would be given for the plan to be implemented?" (p. 323) "In the final stages the children judged unsuitable for Germanization were discarded"

None of this explains the reason for a separate article on the 'Aryanization of Slavs' when none of this even speaks of this - not even the source that is cited - secondly, all of this information can be found in the Germanisation and GeneralPlan Ost articles.

No books talks about 'Aryanization of Slavs', you know why, because Slavs were regarded as Aryan, think logical as one cannot "become Aryan" when they are already Aryan.

The Aryanization definitions are of the following:

Aryanisation (Arisierung in German) in Nazism, which literally means "to make Aryan", was principally used to refer to the expulsion of the so-called "non-Aryans" from Nazi Germany, Austria, and the territories it controlled.

During the Nazi period Jews gave up their businesses for minimal compensation. At first, this was voluntary; it became mandatory in 1937-8.

The compulsory expropriation of Jewish industries, businesses and shops.

often refers to the Nazi policy of taking away businesses and property owned by Jews, and turning it over to "pure" Germans.

The expropriation of Jewish businesses and property by the German authorities as well as similar measures by other Axis nations, including Romania and Slovakia.

None of this mentions any forms of Aryanization to Slavs and neither does the book that is mentioned as a source (see above I have pointed it out) so I suggest removing the whole section of 'Aryanization of Slavs' as it makes no sense and there is no sources to back it up.--Battersy Dogs Homes (talk) 17:58, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

If you wish to modify what is written in the article, add new text supported by citations to WP:Reliable sources. Do not remove change what the existing sources say. Binksternet (talk) 20:28, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with sources, are you backwards or something? The information given has NOTHING to do with this article and the source itself does not state any of this information neither, it does not speak of 'Aryanization of Slavs'.--Gordon Sashty (talk) 09:38, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you should realise that the "reliable source" given does not show anything of what is being shown and all this information is nonsense for the article and belongs in Germanisation (see for yourself), no evidence in the source given suggests any sort of 'Aryanization of Slavs', stop being so god damn ignorant.--Gordon Sashty (talk) 09:52, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Slavs

The text for Slavs is not cited and is irrelevant to this topic as there is no mention of Aryanization of Slavs. Unless someone can provide a cited source then it should stay removed as the source at present mentions Germanization of some Slavs that were classified as being of Germanic descent. Please check source.--82.132.237.198 (talk) 11:24, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

As you can see, this has been discussed, consensus is against you, move on. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:30, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

This IP is likely another sock of User:English Patriot Man. -- Diannaa (talk) 13:39, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Nothing has been agreed, have you even read the so-called source? Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral not one side so why should I who came across this page unintentionally and pointing this out have to simply move on when I am pointing the inaccurate of this page. There is no mention in any cited books Aryanization of Slavs so why is it even mentioned?

I am not a puppet sock of anyone.--82.132.245.233 (talk) 10:59, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Removal of paragraph/text

It appears the blocked sockpuppet that earlier requested the removal of the text seems to have a point, the Aryanization of Slavs text in the article is not supported by the source, the Europe at War 1939-1945: No Simple Victory simply talks about the Nazi racial hierarchy and other parts of Nazi ideology but no results are found of the word 'Aryanization' or the alternative 'Aryanisation'.

Aryanization was about the removal of non-Aryans from the business life of Germany, etc. The article in other languages does not mention Slavs.

I am going to remove this text from the article because the source given does not verify it.--Windows66 (talk) 14:05, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

If anybody has any problems with this removal then another source will be needed, although I can find no which will support the notion of "Aryanization of Slavs".--Windows66 (talk) 20:42, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

records of "Aryanization" of Jewish and Polish property [2] Not all Slavs were robbed, some nations were Nazi allies and Soviet poeple had been robbed by the Soviets. Xx236 (talk) 12:15, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Alternate usage

Presently this article appears to be about the expulsion of non-Aryans... however I noticed Mischling#Reclassification_procedures uses it this way:

Requests for reclassification (e.g., Jew to Mischling of 1st degree, Mischling of 1st degree to 2nd degree, etc. ) or Aryanization (see German Blood Certificate) were personally reviewed by Adolf Hitler. A reclassification approved by the Nazi party chancery and Hitler was considered an act of grace (Gnadenakt).

So it seems there is a secondary meaning in regard to change of classification from less-Aryan to more-Aryan (J to M1, M1 to M2) ? ScratchMarshall (talk) 09:03, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Number of Jew Owned Businesses

There appears to be some conflicting sources regarding how many jew owned businesses there were. The intro states that there were 100k at some unspecified time before 1933, and that only 30k existed in 1938. But later on its said that in 1933 there were 50k stores, and that only 9k made it to 1938. Is it merely a word choice (business v. Store) issue that requires better definitions or do the sources conflict with each other? CaptainEek (talk) 07:03, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, let's clear up this problem about "jew owned businesses". Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:42, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Other countries

This article deals exclusively with Nazi Germany, but Aryanization policies were also implemented in Germany's allies, including the Slovak State, Hungary, and Romania. Catrìona (talk) 03:06, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources to support that contention? I've removed the clean-up tag until you provide some. Please remember that de-Jewification is not exactly the same thing as Aryanization. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:06, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken:: Aryanization in Slovakia is discussed in the following publications and many others, which you can easily find with a Google search:

Hutzelmann, Barbara (2016). "Slovak Society and the Jews: Attitudes and Patterns of Behaviour". In Bajohr, Frank; Löw, Andrea (eds.). The Holocaust and European Societies: Social Processes and Social Dynamics. Springer. pp. 167–185. ISBN 9781137569844.

Kamenec, Ivan (2007). On the Trail of Tragedy: The Holocaust in Slovakia. Translated by Styan, Martin. Bratislava: Hajko & Hajková. ISBN 9788088700685.

Ľudovít Hallon, 2007. "Aryanization in Slovakia 1939-1945," Acta Oeconomica Pragensia, University of Economics, Prague, vol. 2007(7), pages 148-160.

The official Slovak Holocaust documentation center also has a web page on it, here. For Romania, see here. Here is an academic publication comparing Aryanization in various countries, including Slovakia and Hungary. Catrìona (talk) 06:26, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

And how much of this was done under direct pressure from Nazi Germany? Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:45, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

It is a complex question not susceptible to over-generalizations such as that it was done under pressure from Nazi Germany. For instance, Kamenec (p. 81) suggests that one of the impetuses for Aryanization in Slovakia was to ensure that Jewish property fell into the hands of ethnic Slovaks rather than Germans. Local conditions, greed and self-interest played a large role. Catrìona (talk) 08:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

On the contrary, it is not a complex question at all. Nazi Germany pressured its allies to follow its lead concerning Jews. If there were "local conditions" that contributed to this, then there should have been some expression of those prejudices before those countries allied thmselves with Nazi Germany. Please provide the evidence. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:57, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: Are you really questioning the existence of anti-Semitism in Romania before the rise of the Nazis? Or am I missing something? Srnec (talk) 00:44, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Of course not! But anti-Semitism is a much more multifarious thing, and while Aryanization is certainly anti-Semitic, "anit-Semitism" is not necessarily the same thing as "Aryanization", which is a specific instantiation. What we need to see is evidence of Aryanization-like activities in these countries before they came under the sway of the Nazis, not simply anti-Semitism, which was rampant throughout Europe at the time. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:52, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

In the Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, volume 3, pg. 845: "With the creation of an independent Slovakia, Ľudáks made anti- Jewish policy a state doctrine. Only a month after the declaration of independence, the first official anti- Jewish law went into effect. ... [That] law limited the number of Jews allowed to practice the profession of lawyer to 4 percent. All journalists falling into the category of “Jew” were expelled from all non- Jewish newspapers... Anti- Jewish policy continued with measures in the economic sphere. The confiscation of Jewish property and its transfer to the non- Jewish (“Aryan”) population, called Aryanization, became increasingly rigorous... Aryanization of enterprise property was sharply criticized by radical Ľudáks who demanded quick “removal” of Jews from the society." On the previous page, the writers are very clear that "direct Nazi intervention" did not begin until the German invasion of Slovakia (August 1944), long after Aryanization was over. The Slovak State instituted these policies of its own initiative, not because it was forced to do so by Germany. Catrìona (talk) 01:38, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

• Great, that is concrete evidence of Aryanization in Slovakia -- I never doubted that these things occurred in other countries, but, then, that was never the question at hand. The "creation of an independent Slovakia" was only possible because Slovakia asked for, and got, assistance from Hitler. Thus, you need to show that the anti-Jewish laws weren't part of a quid pro quo with the Nazis, as I suspect they were. The other alternative is that Ľudáks realized that to firm up his position with Hitler he needed to take such steps. So, the upshot is that you really haven't shown Aryanization behavior independent of Nazi influence or pressure. Thus the article title remains appropriate, which is -- I believe -- what this discussion is about. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:53, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 11 December 2018

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. bd2412 T 14:36, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

• Aryanization (Nazism) → Aryanization
• Aryanization → Aryanization (disambiguation)

– Obvious WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. For me, the first three pages of non-Wikipedia Google search results do not discuss other meanings of the term. Furthermore (see above), the current disambiguator "(Nazism)" is misleading, because Aryanization in the sense of the robbery of Jewish owned businesses and property was not unique to Nazi Germany and its occupied territories, but was also applied by other Axis regimes such as the Slovak State and Hungary. Catrìona (talk) 07:03, 11 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 ^{talk to me | my contributions} 12:05, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose There is much more to "Aryanization" than that, and much of what you describe was done by allies of Nazi Germany under pressure fcrom the Nazis. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:44, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: So you dispute that Aryanization is the PRIMARYTOPIC? Catrìona (talk) 08:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I dispute that Aryanization occurred outside of the penumbra of Nazism and the countries they controlled either directly or indirectly. If you wish to expand the article and provide information about this process in other countries, that's fine, but you're gong to find that the changes made in other countries were made under significant pressure from the Nazis in Germany and are not unrelated to Nazism, as you appear to be implying. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:38, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Actually I said no such thing. These countries may have been under "the penumbra of Nazism" but they were also autonomous, and although Nazi influence is a factor, it was not the only factor explaining their "Aryanization" measures. I am also confused by why you continue to oppose the move, despite not disputing that this is the PRIMARYTOPIC per WP:DISAMBIGUATION. Catrìona (talk) 11:06, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

"Nazi influence" is the primary factor. Please come up with sources that say otherwise. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:48, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support. This appears to be a misunderstanding; removing the parenthetical from the title does not mean that the article will cease to frame the topic in terms of Nazism. The sentence that was objected to from the request is quite tangential to the proposal. Dekimasuよ! 06:44, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support as it does appear to be the primary topic making the parenthetical disambiguation unnecessary. A hatnote can easily redirect to the other article. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:10, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support. The other meaning on the DAB page is a WP:PTM at best. Narky Blert (talk) 07:07, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Edits by indeffed sock need verification

I've removed the expression "de-Jew the economy" from the lead (double-quoted, but without attribution) which was added in this edit by indeffed sock Bossanoven (talk · contribs) in 2011. I can imagine this being a legit expression translated perhaps from something like Wirtschaftentjudenisierung, so I'm not saying it's definitely made up, but it's in the lead and double-quoted as if it's a quotation from somewhere, but it doesn't appear in the body, and it's unsourced. The double-quoted English search query "de-Jew the economy" appears to yield only Wikipedia mirrors and a book or two that are more recent and use suspiciously similar language. Per page stats, Bossanoven wrote 13% of the article, much of it unsourced, so all of his contributions at the article may have to be double-checked for verifiability. Pinging top article editors @Beyond My Ken, Buidhe, Paul Barlow, Battersy Dogs Homes, and Trinitrix: just fyi. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 05:05, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

It is a matter of judgment. "Entjudung der Wirtschaft" is at times used in official Nazi documents (e.g., here). The term "Entjudung" itself has had different meanings. Less euphemistic than Aryanization, also "de-jew"/"de-jewification" is nazi terminology. I think it is appropriate to mention the term in the main text. For the intro, it unnecessarily normalizes nazi terminology even if in quotation marks. All the best, --Trinitrix (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Predates 1933?

While I have no reference, I recall reading of Jews pressured to sell, for example, homes, in areas that had a strong nazi presence before the aryanization became official policy. Not sure if this should be mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrm2007 (talk • contribs) 12:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)