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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Kerim Demirkaynak (talk | contribs) at 08:09, 25 May 2024 (→‎Requested move 24 May 2024: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

And then what?

I have noticed a lot of dangling threads in this article, which I'm going to go through and tag. Most of these take the form of, e.g. On March 23 at 13:24 UTC, Musk said that he was going to 'ban the hell out of that guy' or something along those lines, and then... nothing. Did he do it? Was the guy banned at all? Is he still banned? What does the guy think about this? We should be able to provide information like that. jp×g🗯️ 23:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Man, there are a lot of these. Some of this stuff seems like it does pass the test of time, but some of it really does not. Like this: By December 17, Twitter was blocking some links to Mastodon as being "potentially harmful" or "malware".. What... happened? Was anyone banned for this? Did anything happen? Did it get enforced and then lifted? If it's not still the case, when was the policy lifted? If we can't find anything along those lines in news coverage, we should probably treat it as a one-off event (e.g. "on December 17, it was reported that links to blah blah blah were being blocked due to whatever"), rather than phrase it like this is a continuing thing. jp×g🗯️ 00:23, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As an update, I've started to go through these "needs update" tags, resolving the issues you are correctly raising. I'm by no means done but dealt with about half of these so far. For reference, some were very useful, like after NPR ceased activity on Twitter, this did require an update to explain that 6 months later they still no longer use Twitter, and the negligible effects this has had. However, I did find some of tags inaccurate. For example many paragraphs in the state-affiliated media section had these tags, but the final sentence adequately summarised the end result; that Twitter stopped using these labels entirely, even if there was a little extra info that could be added for clarity. Some of these simply needed a WP:CLARIFY tag, rather than a needs update, in order to bring the information up to date, or a least a better reason for needing updating.
I've also tried to correct some the wording/phrasing if you also correctly pointed out, where there is no further information avoiding giving the impression that the event is ongoing or present as it were. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 16:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Restructure of sections proposal

Proposing a change to the structure of 2nd headed sections to include "Policy changes". I still feel this page is a bit of a "mess" when it comes to structure, as not every 3rd headed section falls into the sub-section of "Content moderation" or "Other developments", and I wouldn't describe "Policy changes" as content moderation either. I already made a few moves, but thought I'd check with others on a bolder re-arrange.

---

Corporate management 

   Layoffs and mass resignations
   Resignation poll
   Corporate value

Content moderation 

   Initial reforms
   Misinformation and disinformation
   Increase in hate speech
   Pentagon leaks
   Child sexual abuse

Policy changes 

   Account suspensions
       ElonJet and journalists suspended
   State-affiliated media labeling
   Tweet views and messaging limits
   Announced removal of user blocking
   API changes

Developments 

   Verification program
   Revamp and rebrand
   Engagement with Musk's tweets
   Delaying links to external websites
   User engagement

Antisemitism controversies 

   Toggle Antisemitism controversies subsection
   Leo Frank disinformation
   Anti-ADL tweet campaign
   Musk amplification of antisemitism
   Media Matters analysis and lawsuit

Reactions and commentary

---

This would also be changing "Other developments" simply to "Developments". I'm sure there are further improvements to the structure of the page, so any feedback/proposals is appreciated. I'm aware there are other improvements/updates necessary for this page, especially if it is to be moved to X (social media), but I also think a better structure overall would help with that. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 10:02, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move to X (social network)

Twitter under Elon Musk's management is now known as X, it would make sense for the article about the recent history of Twitter to use this name. Flameoguy (talk) 16:14, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes this has been proposed already: Talk:Twitter_under_Elon_Musk#Proposed_split_of_Twitter over the main talk page Talk:Twitter#Survey CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 16:34, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 May 2024

Twitter under Elon Musk → X (social network) – See Talk:Twitter#Requested move 17 May 2024 elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 19:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Man Without Fear, Isla, Joe vom Titan, Civic Nexus, Editior23, UltrasonicMadness, Padgriffin, Datapass, Happily888, EarthTeen, Schierbecker, GEGOBYTE, Primium, Graham11, Theimmortalgodemperor, Glman, ScottSullivan01, Matthieu Houriet, Esolo5002, Ye9CYNMD, AltendoYT, SarahJH07, Pickleishere, Melmann, Fiendpie, Skakkle, 魔琴, XtraJovial, Clearfrienda, Hurtcopain, Omnis Scientia, Botto, Félix An, Thesavagenorwegian, NegativeMP1, Panam2014, Traumnovelle, Dylnuge, Gluonz, JohnCWiesenthal, SuperMario231 64, Aitraintheeditorandgamer, Zxcvbnm, Horse Eye's Back, Patar knight, 85sl, and Quxyz. (2/2) InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per previous discussion—blindlynx 00:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per previous discussion Panam2014 (talk) 00:50, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This is a good solution. There is definitely enough difference to warrant two articles. Clearfrienda 💬 00:52, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, as that would basically confuse readers that the website has two separate eras covered, rather than a whole identity. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 00:56, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Viacom has two separate eras. Turtletennisfogwheat (talk) 01:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If we're talking about companies, there's plenty of precedent; Yahoo Inc. is another. But this is a product, and I don't believe there have been many cases similar to this one. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:08, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The bulk of sources in the last week, with the change of the domain name, are basically considering this the final nail in Twitter's coffin. And while the service/social media may be similar, the controversies and management aspects of it are vastly different that it would make covering the whole of Twitter/X in one article undue and confusing. — Masem (t) 01:29, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I think, as per the previous discussions on the Twitter talk page, that the Musk acquisition represents such a significant break in Twitter's management, branding operations, and general approach that a) it's become necessary to rename this page to serve as the home for all X-related events and b) that the original Twitter page should remain as-is to preserve the original company's decisions/ethos/impact. Fiendpie (talk) 00:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: This is the solution that Masem proposed that I fully endorse. The platform under Dorsey & Musk has been different enough that separate articles are warranted. But, yes; a lot of work will be needed to essentially rewrite the Musk article. BOTTO (T•C) 00:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Didn't he say he wanted X to ultimately be an app along the lines of WeChat? I understand in its current form it's just a social media site/app, but overtime as they focus on that goal, new features not related to social media may/will get added. Unknown0124 (talk) 00:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:CRYSTALBALL- the content should be reflect what the subject matter currently is rather than what might be added in the future. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 01:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    and should this WeChat-like app come to pass, that's just more a change of name of this from X (social network) to whatever name is more appropriate but without having to move content around. — Masem (t) 01:30, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, makes sense to have a clean break. Jordan117 (talk) 01:11, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FWIW, I have spelt out exactly what I think needs to be done, which includes this rename but also some content management, at Talk:Twitter#Masem’s proposal. All those steps don't need to be decided now, but it is the logical outcome involving this renaming. --Masem (t) 01:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per the consensus established on Twitter that “there is no consensus that "X" is the most commonly used name for the social network”, so either “Twitter” is the current common name, or “X” is the common name. Both cannot be true at the same time. The core product also hasn’t really changed since the takeover, and the subject of this article is pretty much just controversies and complaints caused post-takeover. This feels like an attempt to sidestep the consensus established in that RM, especially as this would also call for substantial content duplication and/or merging. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 01:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The consensus in that RM was Not move. There was less consensus to move Twitter to X (social network) than there was to keep the Twitter article the way it is. Turtletennisfogwheat (talk) 01:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The rationale behind the Not Move was that there wasn’t consensus that “X” was a more common name than “Twitter”. As pointed out in that closing, this isn’t something we can do with just an RM.
    Can we establish that “X” is a different product from Twitter? The management changes and controversies have been cited but there was a year’s time where those still happened under the Twitter banner post-Musk. So does that retroactively belong in the “X” article? Or does it belong in Twitter? If the latter is true then what exactly is the difference between Twitter and X? Is it POV to even suggest that the two are fundamentally different products? This isn’t something you can fix with an RM, this is calling to basically change the subject matter of an entire article based on something where we weren’t able to decide if the name change is even the COMMONNAME. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 02:03, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Another major issue is that when do we draw the line for when Twitter became no longer Twitter? The changes started almost immediately after the takeover, but the rebranding happened a year later. You’re almost bound to end up with WP:NPOV issues because there really isn’t a clear point to draw the line. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 01:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The natural break is when Musk bought it. That's when much of the backend and policies changed. You'd need a section on Twitter to summarize the acquisition, and likely documenting when the domain names were changed, but that's just for comprehension. Masem (t) 01:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As I pointed out in my other comment, that leaves almost an entire years worth of time where the site was unambiguously referred to as “Twitter”, even by Musk himself. Also there are obvious POV issues with suggesting that Twitter ceased to be the moment Musk bought it, in addition to POV issues with suggesting that “X” and “Twitter” are different products at all given that the status quo is that they’re being treated as the same product. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 02:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Remember that within weeks of the purchase, Musk was calling it X. While we can talk about COMMONNAME aspects and why keeping Twitter where it was for that year, at that point, that when it was formally renamed to X. Thus, it absolutely makes sense that the history from the day Muck bought it that all that content makes sense at an article called X, if we are keeping a historical article on what Twitter was before Musk bought it.
    And given everything Musk has said as well as how the media have approached it, Twitter and X should be considered wholly different products. It is a unique situation compared to anything else out there, hence why the comparison to why we have two Viacom articles (reflected eras of different management) makes sense here. Masem (t) 05:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    “there is no consensus that "X" is the most commonly used name for the social network” argument fails basic logic and also policy. We follow official corpoate names, and not wikipedians opinion on names. We would still be calling alphabet as google. There is nothing in WP:NCCORP to support the argument that we will use an old corporate name because we do some WP:OR and count sources. There is also nothing in WP:MOSTM that supports the argument that we wikipedians are going to call it twitter, just because the name is better than x. I personally like the twitter name and the bird better, but this doesnt mean that I get to raise my hand and suggest the article should be called that. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:50, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Padgriffin's sentiment. Also, for when another one of these comes up in like 2 weeks, please don't ping me for these. Neo Purgatorio (talk) 01:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support: In the previous request, I supported both the initial proposal and the alternative proposal. This is effectively the alternative proposal, which had quite a lot of support in the previous request. From my understanding, a proposal similar to this was also the most popular option in a survey I participated in a few months ago at Talk:Twitter. –Gluonz talk contribs 02:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: My opinion from the RM remains unchanged: that Twitter and X have separate articles since X is fundamentally not Twitter, a la the Ship of Theseus. Kailash29792 (talk) 02:19, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Do we have any sources that actually support the claim that X is “fundamentally” not Twitter? Also citing the Ship of Theseus highlights the problem with POV I noted earlier, because it is literally based on your POV if the Ship of Theseus is still the same Ship of Theseus. There is no “correct” answer that doesn’t violate WP:NPOV in the absences of sources that also make the claim or draw the line. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 02:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I think that X is intrinsically a new company and should have a dedicated page. It would stop all the attempted moves of the Twitter page that are unwarranted. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 03:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support, it works i guess. What about "X (Formerly Twitter)" for this page? Tantomile (talk) 03:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not a proper title. Using parentheses to signify a former name would be unprecedented. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 05:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for two reasons:
    1. The previous RM established Twitter as the social network's common name.
    2. Twitter/X is the same social network. This article is about a particular era of that social network's history. The proposed title would suggest that this article is about a social network itself, thus wrongly implying that either (a) X is social network that is a successor of Twitter, rather than merely a renaming of Twitter, or (b) this article is about the entire history of the social network since 2006.
Graham (talk) 03:56, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Point 2 is easily remedies with a well-written lede section and hatnotes to make sure the reader understands the content of what X (social network) is from 2023 onward while Twitter is covered elsewhere. Masem (t) 05:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would paper over a genuine issue - the fact that a service changed (for the worse, some say) or that new features are planned (like payments) does not mean it is a successor. The widespread mention of "X, formerly Twitter" in reliable sources, or the seemingly unanimous media framing of the Twitter -> X move as a "rebrand" (meaning, the same service) shows that it would be WP:OR for us to treat them as separate services. DFlhb (talk) 06:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC) edited 06:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: this it the same platform as before, just with a name change, so it should be listed under its commonname Twitter --FMSky (talk) 06:08, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - This move only makes sense if we treat Twitter & X as two separate networks, which would be a subjective decision. This article is fine as a child-article. It covers Twitter/X's controversies in relation to Musk, his leadership, and his impact on society (which is the precise reason why these controversies were found noteworthy by the press). Second, this article would not be fine as the "primary" article on a social network; that would change its scope and require a rewrite, to refocus on its features, technological aspects, societal impact, etc, like all of our articles on social networks. A move would create pervasive due weight issues which don't currently exist. DFlhb (talk) 06:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support: This should have been done a year ago; those who still stubbornly oppose it are those who cannot keep up with change. Kerim Demirkaynak (talk) 08:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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