Talk:Vivian (Paper Mario)

Vivian's Gender

"However, in the Japanese version the “Three Shadows Group” uses the word 魔女たち (majotachi), which refers to a group of sorceresses, (i.e. females). Also, words like "her", "she", and "sisters" are also used. Beldam often calls Vivian "man", but this could be explained as Beldam's way of insulting Vivian. More telling is that the menu information describes Vivian as a male, though this also could be a joke showing that Mario (who is apparently journaling the adventure, though that's debatable) misheard that Vivian was male. The word "siren" (is used, etc.) However, "siren" is used only in the English script."

It sounds like somebody is attempting to dance around the issue here--despite fan opinion to the contrary, the Japanese have no problem with making ambiguious characters, or obviously feminine looking characters who turn out to be quite male. Therefore, unless clearly documented evidence is put forth, Vivian is very likely a male in the original, Japanese version and must be noted as such. See also: Bridget. Viewer 04:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide any proof she's male?

In the japanese game it says she is male also they say she is a he they switched it to a she in America because it would make matters worse for the already heated up "gay marriage" thing --69.243.114.155

The "gay marriage thing"? That's rather a stretch, don't you think? In any case, here's proof--scroll down to the heading marked "Vivian". I'll repost it here, also:

Party member description:

Japanese text: カゲ三人組の一人だった　オンナのコのようで　ホントは　オトコのコ (Rough translation: "One of the shadow group, Vivian appears to be a girl but is really a boy.")

English text: One of the Shadow Sirens, Vivian suffers from a bit of an inferiority complex.

Excerpt from Goombella's tattle:

Japanese text: 『ビビアン』よ　カゲ三人組の一人で　いちばん下の妹　・・・じゃなくて　弟ね (Rough translation: "That's Vivian. Of the shadow group, she's the youngest sister... er, brother.")

English text: That's Vivian. She's the youngest of the three Shadow Sirens. Viewer 03:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Gee, ever think maybe that description came from Beldam calling her a man as an INSULT {keep in mind that Beldam thinks she's beautiful and Vivian's ugly}? It's supposed to be like Mario's journal or something, and he was there when Beldam said that, so of course he might think she's a guy.

Also keep in mind that the page claims Birdo {Japanese name Catherine} was once a guy, when she never was {that confusion was thanks to a horrible mistranslation in the manual}. Ironic, coming from the same site that once debunked the Birdo myth.

And about the reference to Bridget at the top--hardly the same thing.

- I don't have much to contribute except two things... First off, it wasn't a mistranslation. Birdo is called a guy in the original Japanese games, including Doki Doki Panic. It's Nintendo of America that removed that information to avoid further controversy. This is also clearly seen in Birdo's Japanese Trophy for Super Smash Bros. Melee. Secondly, on a Japanese page when Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door was about to be released in Japan, someone (I think one of the designers) showed artwork of Vivian. One of the comments from a Japanese viewer commented (and I'm paraphrasing the translation), "It had me fooled, but it is a man. It is so cute." I highly doubt that one fluent in Japanese got confused in this case. Unfortunately, I cannot show you the page because I've lost it, and I don't know if it still exists in the form that it has.

"First off, it wasn't a mistranslation. Birdo is called a guy in the original Japanese games, including Doki Doki Panic. It's Nintendo of America that removed that information to avoid further controversy. This is also clearly seen in Birdo's Japanese Trophy for Super Smash Bros. Melee."

LOL, that's a good one. No, they actually mixed up Birdo and Ostro's descriptions in the ENGLISH manual, which counts as a mistranslation. That has been common knowledge for almost a decade, especially since American players were pretty much the ONLY ones to claim Birdo was a guy. Nintendo officially stated long ago that Birdo being a guy was a mistake in the SMB2 manual. And how is it "clearly seen" in the trophy?

And furthermore, there's obviously more than one Birdo anyhow, so who the hell cares?

"Secondly, on a Japanese page when Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door was about to be released in Japan, someone (I think one of the designers) showed artwork of Vivian. One of the comments from a Japanese viewer commented (and I'm paraphrasing the translation), "It had me fooled, but it is a man. It is so cute." I highly doubt that one fluent in Japanese got confused in this case."

Seems possible to me, considering how confusing their language is, even to the Japanese themselves {look at the Hoko-ji Temple bell incident, for example}. I mean, they have at least four different writing styles if you include Romaji, and numerous ways of writing or pronouncing certain words {the kanji for the number eight, for example, can be pronounced ya, pachi, or hachi}.

"Unfortunately, I cannot show you the page because I've lost it, and I don't know if it still exists in the form that it has."

Uh-huh. How convenient. I'm not accusing you of lying or anything; just saying it's strangely convenient that you can't actually provide the "proof".

- "LOL, that's a good one. No, they actually mixed up Birdo and Ostro's descriptions in the ENGLISH manual, which counts as a mistranslation. That has been common knowledge for almost a decade, especially since American players were pretty much the ONLY ones to claim Birdo was a guy. Nintendo officially stated long ago that Birdo being a guy was a mistake in the SMB2 manual. And how is it "clearly seen" in the trophy?" "And furthermore, there's obviously more than one Birdo anyhow, so who the hell cares?"

No... In Doki Doki Panic, Birdo was a guy. Doki Doki Panic preceeded the American release, known as Super Mario Bros. 2. And the Japanese games call Birdo a guy. This 'girl/guy' confusion only exists mong non-Japanese fans. And by 'clearly seen', I mean that, if you set the language to Japanese, you can read (assuming you can translate from Japanese) that Birdo is male, but prefers to be identified with females. People assume that a feminine name means a female character, but directly reading official profiles, that is not the case. Yes, Birdo and Ostro's names were accidentally switched when first localized. That's irrevelent. Otherwise, Nintendo of America did a good job of localization the first time around (the descriptions weren't switched around, by the way, just the names themselves, which is forgiveable since they aren't exactly copies from the Japanese Doki Doki Panic names)... They even carried the info "Catherine prefers to be called Cathy" to "Birdo prefers to be called Birdetta". The only reason Nintendo of America called Birdo a girl later, presumeably, to avoid controversy. And yes, there are more than one Birdo, but we're talking about the individual character instead of the species (like Yoshi, Toad, etc.).

"Seems possible to me, considering how confusing their language is, even to the Japanese themselves {look at the Hoko-ji Temple bell incident, for example}. I mean, they have at least four different writing styles if you include Romaji, and numerous ways of writing or pronouncing certain words {the kanji for the number eight, for example, can be pronounced ya, pachi, or hachi}."

I suppose that's true. It still seems a bit iffy to me, though.

"Uh-huh. How convenient. I'm not accusing you of lying or anything; just saying it's strangely convenient that you can't actually provide the "proof"."

It's an old site, and I've only been there one or twice via a direct link... I can try to find it again.

"No... In Doki Doki Panic, Birdo was a guy. Doki Doki Panic preceeded the American release, known as Super Mario Bros. 2. And the Japanese games call Birdo a guy."

Except in Mario Tennis onward {yes, it's a girl in both versions of every Mario game between 2000 and the present}, but it may be a different Birdo in recent games {note also that they're obviously trying, in both Japan and the English-speaking world, to hook up Yoshi and the current Birdo--and last time I checked, Nintendo has never tried to make Yoshi gay}.

"I suppose that's true. It still seems a bit iffy to me, though."

I don't find it "iffy" at all, considering what I just explained about their confusing language.

"It's an old site, and I've only been there one or twice via a direct link... I can try to find it again."

Won't do me any good--no computer I have access to has the capability to even show Japanese lettering, let alone the ability to translate it for me.

"Except in Mario Tennis onward {yes, it's a girl in both versions of every Mario game between 2000 and the present}, but it may be a different Birdo in recent games {note also that they're obviously trying, in both Japan and the English-speaking world, to hook up Yoshi and the current Birdo--and last time I checked, Nintendo has never tried to make Yoshi gay}."

They're not really making Yoshi gay, if that's what you're thinking: According to statements made by Nintendo of Japan, the Yoshi species is officially asexual (Super Smash Bros. Melee, again, also had this info in Yoshi's Japanese Trophy, but was edited out of the English release). And yes, Japan still calls Catherine/Birdo male; for example, the Japanese Mario Kart: Double Dash site says something to the effect of this on his profile, "Seems to be Yoshi's girlfriend... or should we say, boyfriend?"

"I don't find it "iffy" at all, considering what I just explained about their confusing language."

... 'Kay.

"Won't do me any good--no computer I have access to has the capability to even show Japanese lettering, let alone the ability to translate it for me."

What about Babelfish? I know it's not perfect, but still...

WILL YOU GUYS SHUT UP?! Your making things dificult for Vivian fans.

• • • Can it about Birdo and please sign your posts. Birdo has always been female in the Japanese version. It was an American Manual screw-up that said she was a guy. Even if she wasn't a girl at first, she is now, as the Japanese MKDD says that she and Yoshi are involved, and there is absolutely no indication that Yoshi is gay. Back to Vivian. Another posible dicrepancy is that the Japanese do not often use gender-specific words, probably because they think it is obvious which gender is being referred to. If you look at it this way, ambiguous characters like Vivian are pretty much a big pun. (Resists urge to make Sailor Moon joke) Belgium EO 18:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

... Regardless, it seems that it wasn't an American mistake after all, contrary to popular opinion. New translations of Japanese sources indicate that Birdo (Catherine) is male. This is a statement. A verified fact, unlike Vivian who appears to be a lot more ambiguous. But enough about Birdo. Rather, if anyone wants to talk more about Birdo, or even do some actual contributing and provide more accurate translations than what we already have in regards to Birdo, then bring it to it's own page, not here. It's starting to get off-topic, so let's leave Birdo out of this and keep it to it's own page. And leave any opinion and/or speculation out of both. Keep it real, folks. If it's official, it's official. End of story.

"Keeping it real" is only what I was doing... -Can't exactly sign without a username

-Birdo was a male in the early Japanese versions of the Super Mario games, until the later games where Nintendo decided it was best to describe Birdo as a female because people assumed he was always a girl, though that was not their initial intention. Also, Vivian is a male in the Japanese version, despite his personality and appearance in the video game being depicted as a female. This was all confirmed by a staff member from Nintendo who I emailed to ask these questions.

-So, we can finally conclude that Birdo is now indeed a female in Japan.

-No, we can't. Your Nintendo employee said that Birdo was male in EARLY Japanese games. That employee must have had no idea that Birdo was still listed as male in any current official Japanese websites, as well as several Japanese GCN games themselves. Now, unless Mario was made in, I don't know, 2001, and Nintendo of Japan just decided yesterday that they're going to change Birdo into a female in Japan for the next game it's in, this fact is by no means exclusive to the "early" games. So that's faulty. 208.101.143.63 04:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It was a bad rumor that perpetuated long enough that it can no longer be dispelled. Vivian's appearance was insulted by Bedlam, (which is the joke, since the other two sisters are crone-like and obese while Vivian is the most normal-looking) and the sisters proceeded to tease her about that by calling her a boy. The only time you can battle against Vivian is right after the joke, and the joke is continued in the tattle dialogue provided by Goombella. The original Japanese text says absolutely nothing about being transgender, and instead says "Where is the third sister? Aren't you a man?" or "I wonder if you are a man" and Goombella's tattle states somewthing like "this is the youngest of the sisters... not really a guy" Technology has gotten advanced enough that you can download apps that can translate IMAGES containing text, and no longer have to rely upon someone else's translations. Its time for this rumor to die. -Rob^talk 05:04, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I've done what snooping around that I can, many online (albeit without the money or tenuous at best legitimacy of a gaming news outlet) seem to think that in the original Japanese Vivian is one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otokonoko which would explain a lot about the confusion and why it was translated so many different ways in other regions. I would like to consult an expert, a well known translator did tease an article that never came https://legendsoflocalization.com/is-watt-from-paper-mario-a-boy-or-girl/ NubbyStevens (talk) 20:36, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to provide a source as part of your investigation: The game's Catch Card for Vivian (similar to a bestiary entry) indeed explicitly uses the word otokonoko to describe Vivian in the original text (emphasis mine, video source showing this text in the game):

「『ペーパーマリオＲＰＧ』に

とうじょうした　マリオのなかま

火の魔法を　使う　キュートな　オトコのコ

カゲ三人組という　てきの１人だった」

It is not merely a belief, the game objectively describes Vivian as an otokonoko. Arguably the Catch Cards are the most trustworthy source out of all as they're essentially "Word of God" information in the game: The info in them is not stated or implied to be written by any in-game character, but comes 'straight from the developer' so to say. 2A02:A457:533:1:B9F9:C05:8902:5B84 (talk) 10:37, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Beyond needing to be able to tie it to an RS, it is both a game that came out years later, and the terminology is not inherently disqualifying. For example, Birdo is described as a boy in the SMB2 English manual, but that itself is inadequate to say that they intended Birdo as a crossdresser. Without clarification, it could just as easily be a case of misplaced terminology. The fact that Vivian herself never identifies as a boy would also be adequate to question taking her identity as a feminine boy as fact. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 18:01, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm new and don't know what an RS is (reliable source? Aren't the games a reliable source?) but putting that aside, it's a game in the series and in fact the latest released game where she is mentioned at all. Birdo is whole different can of worms with a much longer history and different words used none of which I can find being オトコのコ (I find the article on Birdo to be a lot more even-handed and informative on her status as well if Vivain's was written as honestly I wouldn't even be here). I'm a bit confused as to why the onus is on some to disprove she's trans when in reality there is virtually no evidence for it and only one localization makes her trans. It would seem based on all of my research that Vivian is akin to the Astolfo anime character https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Fate/Apocrypha_characters#Rider_of_Black in fact it would seem a lot of Japanese media and culture in general is rife with different forms and words for gender non conforming people where their assigned gender at birth is not changed despite their appearance, name, etc. and Vivian clearly falls into that camp a lot more naturally. NubbyStevens (talk) 01:50, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

If anyone requires "secondary sources" regarding the ambiguity of the Japanese version on Vivian's nature, I recommend the first two in the following page:

https://www.mariowiki.com/Vivian

The first source treats Vivian as a trans woman due to her use of female terms (Eg.: "Atai") and referring to herself as one of the sisters.

The second source uses the in-game encyclopedia quote, referring to Vivian as a effeminate boy (Otokonoko).

Both sources seem valid and justify the "ambiguity" case. 207.248.194.15 (talk) 07:22, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't believe Birdo is directly relevant to this, but at minimum you admit in your last sentence that the assertion that Vivian is undoubtedly trans should be questioned. Given contradictory information in source material, which is as reliable as a source can be for assertions about that material, it is at least ambiguous, yet the current article asserts the interpretation of a transgender identity in the original game as fact.

Personally I do not find it logical to question the Catch Card: Given an encyclopedia which is not implied to be subjective (written by an in-game character or so on), if a character in the game repeatedly says they have all these amazing achievements, but the Catch Card says they're just bragging, the Wikipedia page about such a character should not assert as fact that they really do have all those achievements and completely leave out the evidence to the contrary. I don't see why it would be any different here. 2A02:A457:533:1:3445:1DF1:C9CC:147C (talk) 14:49, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

The questioning is based on the fact that Thousand-Year Door also has dialogue suggesting that she's otokonoko, but the dialogue is never from Vivian herself. As far as reliable sources go, to clarify, 'reliable secondary sources'. We can include discussion of the dialogue, especially with this source, but it would be akin to say that others refer to her as otokonoko, but Vivian always identifies herself as a girl and opposes claims otherwise. However, with so many reliable secondary sources that interpret the game's Japanese dialogue in this way, at most we would note the use of otokonoko without affirming that otokonoko is the appropriate descriptor. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:24, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Otokonoko is at minimum an appropriate descriptor given that it's in the source material in the original language. Surely if blog posts by unrelated parties are counted as 'reliable sources', then mainline games by the same developer definitely are. You didn't address the example in the second paragraph either: Why should a character's words be taken as absolute truth in this specific instance, when a contradiction by 'word of God' information like an in-game encyclopedia would commonly merit at least ambiguity in the description (e.g. [character] says/claims [X], but [encyclopedia] says otherwise)? I don't see how any number of secondary sources can justify asserting that the original Japanese script definitely says Vivian is transgender (current article text), when the script not only contains no such explicit claim and even has multiple examples of just referring to Vivian as male. Here's a source for more dialogue from the game referring to Vivian as male in Japanese.

Given that there is contradicting information within the Japanese script of the game, so even ignoring the Catch Card from a later game in the series, it is wrong for the article to state unequivocally that Vivian is transgender in the original Japanese version. No amount of secondary sources can trump the source material. It is ambiguous, the article text is free to highlight interpretations of the character, but it should not itself decide one interpretation is true and not even mention the evidence to the contrary. Also see the separate topic about unfounded claims about localizations as well, it ties into the same thing: Ambiguous source material, yet the current article shows a clear bias and all but lies about the contents of localizations to support its chosen interpretation.2A02:A457:533:1:4886:FA42:320B:B7B1 (talk) 20:29, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

The reason we do not take the "word of god" over the in-universe text (with reliable sources that do not read Vivian as being otokonoko) in this instance is because a game, especially in the 2000s, using terminology to describe a trans person that is inaccurate or offensive is not unprecedented or remotely shocking. We don't even know who wrote Super Paper Mario, so saying that it's the declared word of god for a character from a different game that may have had a different writer requires us to speculate on multiple details to arrive at that claim. As it is, the use of the terminology in one game can't be enough to contradict the fact that the character is both understood as a trans woman, and in no version identifies as a boy in the only game she has appeared in. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 02:58, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Then perhaps the article could at least mention both possibilities and label it as inconclusive? The article simply asserting she is trans in the Japanese script is taking one interpretation and asserting it as absolute when it really isn't. Further, canon in a region is not decided by a consistent writer it's decided by what officially releases in that region and Super is canon to Paper Mario and said "word of god" is valid. And though Super lacks "Script" or "Script director" credits they share the same director and Thousand Year Door's Script Director is credited in Super under "Project Management" with the two games sharing a lot of staff. NubbyStevens (talk) 17:59, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Ultimately, the understanding of Vivian is so clearly and widely that she is trans that I don't find it justified to call it inconclusive. I'd be okay with inserting the use of the term otokonoko, but we can't discern intent from the word usage. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 04:34, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Clearly and widely trans to who? Gaming journalists? Since looking into this, I've found opinion and interpretation to vary quite a bit even amongst those who learned Japanese. Tracking localization and finding the "truth" has always been a hobby of mine in games but this one Paper Mario character has to be the single most divisive thing I have ever come across. I appreciate you taking the time to reply to all of us, it can't be easy on such a divisive page but I'm not seeing how it's so blatant I've had a lot of trouble getting a straight answer. NubbyStevens (talk) 05:30, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

A lot of what you're describing on your interpretation of things sounds like original research, something wikipedia tends to try and push away from. While in some cases you can get statements from a developer that may help clarify a character's gender status (i.e. Naoto, Poison), here we only have in-game statements, and interpretations of those statements in reliable sources cited within the article regarding her as transgender. Wikipedia has to deal strictly with reliable sources (in this case for the project specifically those on WP:VG/S). That's why the article is where it is, it's working with the best information we have available, and that information discusses her as transgender.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 05:57, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Debate over Context of original Japanese quotes

I personally felt the debate over the original Japanese text was worth having its own section.

If such a thing can be found, then it may be a worthwhile inclusion. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 05:32, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Vivian (Paper Mario)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: TarkusAB (talk · contribs) 00:04, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

• European localizers noted however that a game with references to trans people would be unlikely to get a 3+ rating by the Pan European Game Information ratings board, and as such changed such references to a genital reassignment surgery, which allowed for the flavor of the character to remain intact.
  • I'm a little confused by this sentence. The way it's written it sounds like the localizers were afraid the trans references jeopardized the game's 3+ rating, and so "changed" (you mean removed?) references to genital reassignment surgery, and this allowed "for the flavor of the character to remain intact." What is meant by that last piece? the "flavor of the character"? Was the character still transgender?
    • Cleaned it up to be a little clearer.
      • Being discussed below...
• Bustle's Vivian Nunez included Vivian in her list of "17 ways that Vivians are special."
  • I'm not familiar with Bustle or Vivian Nunez and if this is a reliable source, but regardless, the nature of this list seems too unrelated. A woman named Vivian writing about "17 ways that Vivians are special" just seems sorta silly and doesn't tell us anything about the character or why she is significant. Seems like she just looked up characters named Vivian and came up with a list (probably also why she arrived at an unorthodox number of 17). Unless any significance can be derived, I'd probably remove this.
    • That's a good point on its triviality, though I determined it was reliable based on their editorial policy which talks of editors going over articles to ensure accuracy: [1] - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 19:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
      •  Done
• Mashable was critical of the game for characters who exhibit transphobia towards her and praised her design
  • Were they really critical of the game, or just critical of those characters?
    • Removed source as I misunderstood it. I reckon it could be used as a source (that Mashable regarded it as one of Nintendo's queer memes), but I'm not sure. I'm going to try and get further input on that from some others.
      •  Done
• VG247 felt that Vivian's gender identity is expressed in a transphobic fashion.
  • Verb tense agreement "was expressed"
    • Fixed.
      •  Done
• Writer Laura Kate Dale also criticized her treatment in the Japanese version.
  • Which: Did she criticize the treatment Vivan received by the other characters, or did she criticize the way Vivian was written by the development team?
    • Reading the text, she appears to be criticizing how the game presents her (citing a statement that was not made by Vivian's sisters).
      •  Done
• She felt that the suggestion that she was at one time male implies that she is not truly female.
  • This is the first time you're mentioning this dialogue being in the game. So a better way to write it be something like: "She was critical of dialogue in the game that stated she was at one time male, feeling it challenged her validity as a female."
    • Tweaked it to be more like your suggestion. What do you think?
      •  Done
• The moment spoke to them in particular due to being a younger sibling themselves.
  • IDK I'd remove this unnecessary detail. Is Vivian the younger sister btw? You never mentioned that.
    • She is, though I reckon I can just as well use the Nintendojo source to cite that.
      •  Done
• See Also: Birdo
  • I'm generally not a fan of See Also sections in most standard articles like this. Links in See Also "should reflect the links that would be present in a comprehensive article on the topic" (MOS:SEEALSO). As a GA should be comprehensive, Birdo should be mentioned in the article if she is truly relevant.
    • I feel that this is justifiable because while Birdo is not mentioned directly in the text, she is mentioned in multiple sources as a similar character - a Nintendo character who is transgender.
      • Then what would be best is to add a sentence into Reception like: "She has often been compared to Birdo, another transgender character by Nintendo."
        • That's a good idea. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 20:27, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
          •  Done

@Abryn: TarkusAB^talk/contrib 19:50, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for these comments, I'll get to them ASAP. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 19:53, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I've addressed the points you've raised, do you feel that I adequately did so? @TarkusAB: - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 20:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Localization section

Personally, I still find this sentence confusing:

European localizers noted however that a game with references to trans people faced difficulties from the Pan European Game Information ratings board, and as such changed such references to a genital reassignment surgery, which allowed for the flavor of the character to remain intact.

Surely a reference to "genital reassignment surgery" is a reference to "trans people"? I looked at the original source, and found that it was also confusing:

European localizers noted that a game with a reference to transgenderism was unlikely to receive a 3+ rating by PEGI. Nintendo decided to modify the dialogue by replacing the reference to transgenderism with one to a sex-change operation, which still allowed the original flavour to be maintained. In the Italian version Vivian states that she has turned into a woman, and this small change was deemed enough to obtain a 3+ rating for this particular game from PEGI

My recommendation is to just remove the sentence, unless a better source can be found. I don't think there's a way to render what the author is saying here clearly, because I don't think the author is being clear.

(Hopefully its OK for me to post in this section, I'm not very familiar with GA reviews.) WanderingWanda (talk) 00:24, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, I personally think the line is fine, though perhaps worth improving and clarifying further; the RS simply seems to say that they had to do it in a very certain way to appease PEGI. It's not unprecedented for a ratings board to be weird about what is okay and what is not. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 01:53, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I've changed it to this, see what you think: European localizers were concerned that the Pan European Game Information ratings board would not give the game the 3+ age rating they were aiming for because of how the game presented Vivian, however, they were able to find wording that the board would accept, and got the 3+ rating. WanderingWanda (talk) 03:02, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

That seems aight. As far as mentioning the surgery, I did actually check that; when Vivian is called a man in the Italian version, she cites the fact that she has, well, gotten the surgery. A strange line to be certain, and one that comes off more than a little bit problematic, but yeah lol. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 13:21, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, in my digging I'm not finding any explicit references to surgery....According to this paper, in the Italian version Vivian says I’m proud to have turned into a woman!” One could interpret "turned into a woman" as referring to gender confirmation surgery, but I don't think that's necessarily what the line means...

In any case, though, I've come back around to thinking we should just toss the sentence out. The source the sentence is based on (a passage from this book) is based on this paper. And I get the sense from that paper that all the stuff about the European localizers changing content specifically to attain a certain age rating is just speculation. If the author interviewed the localizers, or read an interview with them, she doesn't mention it. So I think we should just focus on the differences between the different versions of the game and leave out the stuff about the age rating. WanderingWanda (talk) 07:34, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Good points about the speculation concerns, and I'm also concerned about the use of the term "genital resassignment surgery", without the game explicitly using that exact terminology. She doesn't even appear to be human, let alone have genitals. What do you think Bryn? TarkusAB^talk/contrib 15:12, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

But how would she pee That's probably the best approach TBH. As it is, transitioned works really well, because it COULD mean GRS, but transitioning can also be social or legal, so it avoids a lot of guff. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 15:31, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Pass TarkusAB^talk/contrib 15:40, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

This article needs serious review regarding subjectivity

I feel that this page has been used to push a specific interpretation of the character that is not necessarily true. Almost every citation relating to the transgender topic comes from secondary opinions that are barely rooted in the source material at all. What should be a footnote in the page totals up to over 60% of the article by word count, very little of which is based on the script itself. Rather, the majority of the citations are pieces from journalists who do not have to hold up to any standard of integrity. 2600:6C46:4A00:C27:8047:9578:12D4:441 (talk) 01:58, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Almost every citation relating to the transgender topic comes from secondary opinions that are barely rooted in the source material at all. That's how it's supposed to be. Wikipedia is built on secondary sources, and we focus on whatever they do. WanderingWanda (talk) 03:25, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

I completely understand that, but I have serious issues regarding their validity as citations. The article suffers a lot because it is so far removed from the game it is talking about. The quote "In every non-English localization of the game, Vivian is still transgender." especially shows this, because this isn't proven by the source given or any other. I think these points are thrown in to back an agenda before proper research has been done, and they should be taken out of the article. 2600:6C46:4A00:C27:8047:9578:12D4:441 (talk) 03:39, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

The source says says She's a canonically transgender character in every translation of the game... except for English. WanderingWanda (talk) 04:11, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, but that's unfounded. Anybody could say anything, but unless there is supporting evidence (i.e. the scripts) it should not be written into an article and presented as fact. 2600:6C46:4A00:C27:8047:9578:12D4:441 (talk) 04:15, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

I mean, IGN is a professional site with an editorial team. In addition, one source does quote the Italian version's script directly. However, per your concerns, I've made the sentence a little less emphatic: it now says In non-English localizations of the game rather than In every non-English localization. WanderingWanda (talk) 06:10, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I think this is a good step toward removing unnecessary bias, but I would still like to see more of the sources replaced or the sections moved in regards to citations that lack primary evidence entirely. 2600:6C46:4A00:C27:7881:C24A:5F6C:7B9B (talk) 00:14, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Merge

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The rough consensus of this discussion was keep, but further good article discussion can be considered. Le Panini ^Talk 23:41, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

---

The story so far:

1. A discussion was made on Wikiproject Video Games about my draft (Mr. Game and Watch) and whether or not it is notable. We decided on its not.

2. Still curious, I asked about what defines a character as notable and used Vivian as an example. The question was answered, but the Vivian article was brought to attention of the users who responded.

3. They stated what they thought, and I created a re-assesment page for the users who responded to give full opinions. I also pinged other users who I believe would have a say in the statement.

4. On the article, Czar believes that the article meets the specific GA requirement, and shifted focus on a suggested merge of the article, for notability reasons. Other users who weren't part of the original discussion agreed.

So here we are today! Now, please be kind, I'm doing this out of good faith; I made false assumptions, and the decision needed more general opinion.

Here's a section from the discussion for reference:

* There is a rule/line in the sand: If the topic's article depends upon "Top X" listicles, the subject matter is likely best covered within an existing article. If you have to cobble together brief mentions from sources, its Reception section will verge on trivia because the topic is on the outer cusp of independent notability. The Vivian article exemplifies this and would be a strong candidate for merger. czar 02:32, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Post your suggestion here. As I said before, I don't really think there is a spot for where this article would go, but others suggest (including me) that the reception is really what makes up the character's notability, which can just have its own hearty paragraph someplace else. Le Panini (^{Talk to}_me?) 11:21, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

I disagree entirely, and do not feel that this article utilizes listicles much at all, rather using in depth analysis from multiple sources. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 11:19, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Abryn, I believe that the one good example of in depth analysis is source 13. This source, however, is a really deep analysis of this basic role of a character. It goes into a philosophy of the character's animation (so, how she stands), and a deep look into the relationship with her sisters (which, the most notable part of this relationship is how she is mislabeled in certain translations, which makes up the bulk of the article). Much like how every other ally is, Vivian is much similar, but received a bit more notability due to her LGBT representation. It deserves a bigger mention in one of the other articles, in a reception category. Le Panini (^{Talk to}_me?) 11:29, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

I've complied a list of the sources used in this article, I'm interested if this really does deserve a GA. Using Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources

• Screen Rant - Listed as inconclusive.
• LGBTQ Video Game Archive - Status unknown.
• Nintendojo - Listed as notable.
• IGN - Listed as notable.
• Revista Tradumàtica (PDF) - Status unknown.
• inu651225 (YouTuber with roughly 700 subs) - YouTube is considered as inappropriate to source due to inappropriate content and copyright concerns, unless it's made by reliable sources in its own right.
• Quote from the game Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door - Listed as reliable.
• The official Smash website - Typically it's not usually the case to source the official company who created the article in question.
• Eurogamer - Listed as reliable.
• Liberty Voice - Status unknown.
• Inverse - Listed as inconclusive.
• Paper - Status unknown.
• Uppsala University (PDF) - Presumably reliable.
• Springer (Book: Queerness in play) - Presumably reliable.
• VG247 - Listed as reliable.
• The Average Gamer - Status unknown.
• The OutCrowd Magazine - Status unknown.

Personally, I don't think this article is worthy of a merger, it's fine staying an article. It's just its rating needs to come into question. CaptainGalaxy 19:38, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

P.S: I would be grateful if we could get some answers on the validity on some of these sources. CaptainGalaxy 19:41, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't agree that this article should be merged anywhere, except for a hypothetical "Transgender characters in video games" which is well sourced and with in depth coverage as opposed to another "List of" article. It is true that a predominant part of her notability as a character is due to her gender status, otherwise I doubt she would qualify for a standalone article in the first place. There's another transgender character in the Mario series, but both characters are considered outliers within the wider Mario franchise, which itself doesn't really engage with gender and sexuality issues in any meaningful or significant way (unlike for e.g. Dragon Age: Inquisition or Tell Me Why). As other editors have mentioned, merging the entirety of the article and most importantly its reception section into the List of Mario franchise characters page or Paper Mario page would cause WP:Undue issues. As Bryn as said, most of the coverage does not in fact some from "Listicles", so La Panini's quote from Czar about it being a "cusp of notability" issue due to a perceived dependency on listicles is inapplicable here IMHO.

I agree with @Captain Galaxy about its GA status. The quality of the sourcing is rather inconsistent, and calls into question how the article earned GA status in the first place. In any event, the reassessment is now closed as Keep so the issue over GA status is a moot point now. Haleth (talk) 10:01, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, while the article meets the GA criteria, per se, it seems to lack the ability of meeting article criteria, due to a lack of strength in notability. I now see why GA and article can be confused.

A couple of points I'm noticing while looking deeper into merging:

Good candidates for merging is articles that lacks the ability to be expanded upon, and should be covered in a broader topic (WP:DUP). Vivian will never have another appearance, except from an article merely mentioning her. There will never be original characters in the franchise anymore, as quote from the creators.

Good candidates for merging is articles that only really expand deeper on one concept (WP:DUP). It even mentions fictional characters as an example, and suggests they should be in a list instead.

It seems like it would make undue weight, but if written correctly, can be greatly minimized. Her character design can be cut, as well as her cameo appearances. All that would really be mentioned is her role in the game, and her LGBT community representation, as that's all the reception she's really gotten.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Vivian_(Paper_Mario)&action=edit&section=4

Le Panini (^{Talk to}_me?) 03:36, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Actually, neither myself nor Captain Galaxy actually said that the article meets GA criteria. We actually disagree that it should maintain its GA status, but since the GA reassessment has been closed because the closing editor interpreted the consensus as moving into the direction of discussing where it should be merged instead, it is now a moot point. Just to reaffirm, we both believe that it is not a GA in quality but the topic itself is notable enough to be a standalone article, whereas you and Czar take the opposite view. Haleth (talk) 23:06, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

• Le Panini, in general, it's important to keep the matter at hand legible. The common way to discuss a merger is to make a concise argument and then to let others respond.

Merge to Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door#Characters. The point isn't to count which sources are listicles to determine whether a character should be merged, but to ask what depth of coverage warrants splitting a fictional character to its own article from the fictional work in which it originates? We do not create separate articles on fictional elements just because they are mentioned in reviews or even as highlights in cross-sectional works, but when there is significant coverage in multiple reliable, independent sources. (?) So where is that here? Every single source in the Reception is only mentions the character in passing. It would be sufficient to mention the localization issues and legacy of the character in context within the main game's article, not needing more than a few sentences and refs apiece. If we need to go into specific source quality, then Liberty Voice and Average Gamer easily have no hallmarks of reliability (editorial pedigree, reputation for fact-checking, etc.) and should be removed. All of this together does not constitute significant coverage. (not watching, please {{ping}}) czar 17:12, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

• Keep, this seems to be a well-written article on a notable character. The named target is a very poor place as the few characters there are only briefly discussed in a sentence or so. I think our readers are better served with keeping the article as is. Glee^anon 10:09, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Gleeanon409. CaptainGalaxy 16:52, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

• Keep - the commentary the character has received with regards to LGBT representation, including some in-depth (refer to sources 13, 14, and 17) clearly shows that Vivian has achieved independent notability from the game she appears in and GNG is met. There is no Wikipedia policy and guideline which discounts list articles from contributing towards notability; as long as the list discusses the character in some level of depth, it is a legitimate source. Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 23:29, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
  • As far as I know, this stance on listicles came from previous consensus in some AfD discussions, but it certainly isn't a community vetted guideline. I have noticed some editors taking a hardline position by treating this viewpoint on listicles almost as if it's wikipedia policy. Plenty of reliable sources publish listicles, with the difference in quality of writing being easily distinguishable from lower quality sources since there would be actual critical discussion or opinion about the subject as opposed to relying on trivial mentions. Haleth (talk) 23:13, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
    • I do agree that our stance on listicles lacks nuance. Keeping, by the way. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 10:06, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Contradictory statements about gender in Japanese version

In the lead, it states "In the Japanese version and European language translations, she is a transgender woman," however, in the body it states "In the original Japanese version, Vivian is described as a boy who looks like a girl, and not explicitly transgender. This detail was carried over to the French and Spanish translations." So which is it accurate? Neither one has a reliable source to back it. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 21:11, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I've revised the article to reflect that she identifies as one of "the three shadow sisters" in the Japanese version. - Sundew451 (talk) 23:43, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Continued unfounded assertions about the Japanese script

The current page text asserts in two places that in the original Japanese script Vivian unequivocally is transgender:

- Introduction: "In the original Japanese version [...], she is a transgender woman"

- Concept and creation: "In the original Japanese version, Vivian is a transgender woman"

The only source given when these assertions are made (after the second of these assertions) is a top 15 list by screenrant.com. In contrast, the original Japanese script is at minimum ambiguous: Vivan uses the feminine first person pronoun atai and speaks of the three sisters (san shimai). On the other hand other characters rebuke Vivian for this way of speaking and the game's Catch Card for Vivian (video of it here) (these contain descriptions of things encountered in the game) explicitly uses the term otoko-no-ko, meaning feminine presenting or crossdressing male. This term in Japanese is only used for these two groups, the word for transgender is a completely different one.

The original Japanese script does not say what the current text asserts and I believe it is wrong to use a secondary source such as this to present one specific subjective interpretation of the ambiguous original script as the truth. It would be more accurate to describe the original Japanese script as being ambiguous, using relevant parts of the script to show this. 2A02:A457:533:1:9426:9A52:5F3:2591 (talk) 19:27, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I think that it would be better to just clarify that Vivian is an Otokonoko in Japanese, specially since Wikipedia already has a page for that. Ang720 (talk) 19:47, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Find a reliable source that states that then. The main thing is to avoid us editors doing original research on the subject.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:31, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, although, I don't care too much about this character, the only concern I have is that there's going to be a lot of controversy when the Remaster comes out.

Still, I hope someone finds a source that further explains the regional differences (especially the dubs of the European version).

Ang720 (talk) 21:01, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Claim that non-English/German localizations of TTYD recognize Vivian as transgender

The current article contains this sentence "In non-English/German localizations of the game, Vivian is still recognized as transgender.". Without further qualification, a reader would assume this means all non-English/German localizations are like this, but this is false: Both French and Spanish localizations refer to Vivian as a man/boy, in both party description and in the Tattle information from Goombella, source here. In total then the Japanese, French, and Spanish versions use boy/man; the English and German versions treat Vivian as a girl/woman with no hint of transgender identity; the Italian version most explicitly refers to vivian as a transgender girl/woman.

Even if being charitable and treating such menu information as being merely equally valid as Vivian's own statements, the current text is a big misrepresentation of the contents of the non-English/German localizations as these in no way present such an unambiguous picture as the current text would have the reader believe. I believe this text should be removed and replaced with a section that acknowledges the ambiguity of Vivian's gender identity instead of asserting one interpretation as truth. I also believe any statements in such a section must be rigorously sourced either to the relevant game script or a secondary source that directly references the game's script. 2A02:A457:533:1:4886:FA42:320B:B7B1 (talk) 20:52, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I played the Spanish dub and it only says that Vivian looks like a girl but is actually a boy ( parece una chica, pero en realidad es un chico.)

I also doubt that Screen Rant is a trustable source. Ang720 (talk) 19:43, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:VG/S, ScreenRant is regarded as reliable for citing facts but not for notability given they are a content farm. They along with other aspects of valnet are shown to have done some degree of fact checking prior to publishing articles.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:30, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Article tone on Vivian's identity in the original script

The current page has a very factual tone about Vivian's gender identity in the original game for both original script and all localizations, exemplified by a sentence in the opening paragraph:

"In the original Japanese version and some European translations, she is a transgender woman, while the script in initial English and German releases was altered to remove any mention of her transgender status"

This makes a strong assertion about the original script and leverages that to imply the original English and German localizations were altered to remove something that was true in the original script. The section on concept and creation of the character repeats this framing:

"In the original Japanese version, Vivian is a transgender woman [...]. When Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door was localized to English and German, Vivian's status as a trans woman was not mentioned."

The assertion about the original Japanese script is the lynchpin of the description: Because the original (Japanese) script said it, it is implied to be the truth that localizations are compared against. I do not think granting greater weight to an original script compared to translations is undue, but I am unsure about the validity of this assertion about the original text:

The only secondary source used for this assertion about the original script is a top 15 article by Screen Rant. This article has a two paragraph section on Vivian, which states: "In the Japanese version of the game, she is a transgender female, who is referred to with masculine pronouns by her sisters, when they are trying to insult her.". No sources for this claim are provided in this article.

On the Wikipedia page for Vivian, a page from The Cutting Room Floor is already used as a secondary source for another claim (relating to differences between localizations). This same page contains dialogue and text involving Vivian from the original script, none of which states in any certain terms that Vivian is transgender (also circumstantially contradicted by later games, which for example explicitly use the term "otokonoko" to refer to Vivian in the original Japanese script). Unless there are sources not mentioned on the current Wikipedia page for these claims about the original Japanese script, I do not see how the current factual tone is appropriate. Wikipedia primarily uses secondary sources, but even those must adhere to some standard of verifiability.

I do not believe the strong assertions about the game's original script, that the current page makes, are sufficiently substantiated by the single source, especially in the face of contradiction or at minimum ambiguity in the original text as provided by another source already used in the page. AlhenaKarr (talk) 20:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

There exist no reliable sources saying that Vivian was a boy in the original script, and there exist multiple sources that say otherwise. Interpretation is a big part of any English translation of Japanese text, but the fact that the current Japanese version changed leans towards the notion that the dialogue reads the way it does is because otokonoko was not uncommonly used to refer to trans women.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cukie Gherkin (talk • contribs) 21:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I feel you did not respond to what I said. The current article cites only one source for the very strong claim about the original Japanese script (the ScreenRant top 15 article, which spends one paragraph on it). If there are indeed multiple, preferably ones that actually bring up the original Japanese script, they should be added as sources for that claim. That singular basis is partly why I objected to basing the entire article's tone off of it.

I think that treating the topic similar to how TCRF (linked prior) or Mariowiki is much better. In both cases the ambiguity of the original Japanese script is described (TCRF does so directly by presenting Japanese dialogue, Mariowiki is a more typical secondary source) and contrasted against localization in its own section.

Ultimately Wikipedia is against repeating demonstrably false information, no matter how many secondary sources would claim it. A primary source is allowed for that purpose. Vivian is described as an effeminate boy in the original game by the party description text, for example. This contradicts Vivian's self-identification, but that contradiction alone is enough to disprove that the original script unequivocally states Vivian is transgender as opposed to it being ambiguous.

Changes made in a remake 20 years later also cannot be used to retroactively revise the past: The remake also removed, for example, some catcalling dialogue by an enemy. That does not mean the intention was to never have that catcalling dialogue in the original. If we readily acknowledge localizations coming out simultaneously can change details of a game, then so can remakes two decades later. AlhenaKarr (talk) 10:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

20 years ago, the terminology used was frequently used for trans people, suggesting that we ignore that fact is not a neutral claim. This is explicitly why we use secondary sources for interpretations of dialogue. It's the very reason why we do not use the Super Mario Bros. 2 manual to say that Birdo is a man, a terminology used even to this day to refer to trans women. What you're saying should happen is not how Wikipedia works. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 10:40, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

The term 'otokonoko' was not frequently used for trans people. Even if this were true, which it is not, that wouldn't make it a fact that Vivian is trans. I am sure some transgender women engage in crossdressing before they come out, that doesn't mean all crossdressing boys/men are transgender. That would be a close-minded and in my opinion an inappropriately Western interpretation of otokonoko subculture. You repeat this inversion when talking about Birdo: Transgender people have been called men, therefore being described as a man is itself support for a character being transgender. There's no logical relationship in that direction.

I want this page to be treated like the one for Birdo, that's exactly what I'm asking for. That page mentions the ambiguity in the original game and manual and even directly links to the Japanese and English manual (sources 3 and 4 of that page). It does not, unlike this page, assert the original Japanese game presents the character in question as definitely transgender. That page is incredibly even-handed: It fairly depicts Birdo's identity across games, while also giving ample attention to interpretations of Birdo as transgender. AlhenaKarr (talk) 11:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

"I want this page to be treated like the one for Birdo"...even though it's not even remotely the same case. Birdo's article points out that instead of addressing the matter, they changed it to "indeterminate". Here, we have a character outright saying they're transgender, and your response is to jump through so many hoops to say "no, it should be ambiguous" when there is nothing stating that. I'm sorry Birdo's article makes you comfortable while this one doesn't, but they are not comparable in their handling.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:30, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

There are reliable sources that document this though. Eurogamer does, for example. Sergecross73 msg me 18:06, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Eurogamer sources this claim to a source already on this page, one that again makes no attempt to source the original game's dialogue to prove anything. I know I'm requesting here to step beyond "Wikipedia has marked them as reliable, therefore what they say is true, end of story", but as per Wikipedia's own rules, we shouldn't be repeating factual assertions that are demonstrably false, no matter how many secondary sources claim them. I am not requesting that the article assert Vivian is definitely not transgender in the original game, that has no factual basis, merely to acknowledge that the original game is ambiguous.

I have linked to TCRF, which contains a transcript of the Japanese dialogue involving Vivian. If you doubt this transcription, you can look up a longplay of the game and visually confirm it (you wouldn't need to know Japanese to do so). It also contains a translation of that Japanese dialogue. If you doubt this translation, you can put it in Google Translate (or DeepL, or what you prefer) and confirm it. At this point, you will have seen that Vivian is referred to as a boy multiple times, including by menu information (e.g. not from a potentially biased in-game character's perspective), showing Vivian's identity is ambiguous. Perhaps I am alone in this, but no amount of Wikipedia's rules regarding reliable sources (Looking up a game's dialogue could be considered original research, for example) can override the feeling that we should not publish factually incorrect information. AlhenaKarr (talk) 10:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

The fact that you believe that otokonoko, especially 20 years ago, was not used to refer to trans people is a really telling thing to me. That is why you cannot claim that it is "demonstrably false." At most, the text plus a transliteration can be posted, but the assertion that Vivian is not transgender in the original game is original research on your part, just as it would be to say that because the SMB2 manual calls Birdo a man, Birdo was not originally transgender. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 11:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I've also removed the TCRF citation, as it is considered an unreliable source per WP:VG/RS and should not be used to support any statements. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 18:30, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I am fairly certain that the word 男の娘 (the form of otokonoko in the article you're linking) did not exist in 2004. オトコのコ simply means 男の子, right? StarletMD (talk) 04:28, 6 June 2024 (UTC)