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There's been some back and forth over the lead image again, so I figured it couldn't hurt to open up a new discussion thread. This was last discussed a couple years ago (here) but no clear consensus was achieved.
For reference, here are the two images that have recently been used:
Image 1
Image 2
I'm not crazy about either of them, frankly, and have no strong opinion as to which is better. But I see that others do have opinions on the matter, so it would be good to try to establish a consensus if possible. Generalrelative (talk) 01:14, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Image 1 has an annoying background, which ruins the image; that’s the simple reason I reverted it. Articles on high-profile individuals are never allowed to have images with bad backgrounds. Trakking (talk) 08:18, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing propagandistic about the second image, which looks like any old black-and-white photo. It would have been ”propaganda” if he was wearing a crown, standing under a banner reading «our noble Caesar». If anything, the first image is more propagandistic since it portrays him as some kind of high-ranking military commander. In reality, both Mussolini and Hitler were only corporals—one of the lowest military ranks. Their primary talent was oratorical demagoguery. Trakking (talk) 10:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The second is a classic photo of Mussolini as he wanted to be seen (grim look, jaw out: this pose has been the subject of countless satirical drawings abroad), while the first shows him as he actually was. Since Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, I say number one (although there are better photos around). Alex2006 (talk) 12:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Prefer D since it's in color, is sensibly illustrative, and not contrived or weird like E. After that, probably A, C, B, E in decreasing order. PS: A background that doesn't happen to be completely blank is not "bad". There is no image policy or guidelines basis for such a mis-assessment. Thousands and thousands of our bio articles have photos that are "natural" shots with real-life background elements in them instead of being artificially posed ones with blank or "haloing" background screens. Not only is this not faulty, an argument can be made that the natural ones are preferable. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 04:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
NOTA Are these really the best free images of Mussolini that exist?? To be frank all of these are terrible. A and D have tiny resolutions, B and C are quite grainy, and E is a side-profile. With D, I'd also like to know if it is colorized/re-colorized; a reverse image search shows many different variations, which is concerning. Curbon7 (talk) 04:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're the RfC starter, you should have been better prepared for such a response when all the presented options are so lacking. Curbon7 (talk) 20:58, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One that I share. Taking this kind of hostile posture toward RfC respondents is unproductive, and you should know better. No one is obligated to satisfy you, especially since you are the one who claims that the current image isn't good enough. You've been told how to find potentially better ones, and the onus is not on someone else to go do that for you. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 05:19, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If one has a problem with the more than 5 choices I originally provided (one of which you were originally in favor of I might add), they are welcome to add their own alternative. There is nothing overtly hostile about pointing that out. As a matter of fact, Curbon7 did set forth his own alternative and I allowed for its inclusion in the list of options without any argument. Perhaps you should have checked that out before offering your unsolicited opinion on the matter. Emiya1980 (talk) 22:27, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If D is a recolor (which it almost certainly is, the original seems to have been printed on Agfacolor by Henri Roger-Viollet in 1940 (possible original)), the question becomes if it is a sufficiently neutral recolor, which is a frequent issue with colorizations of Axis figures of this era. Curbon7 (talk) 21:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not uncommon for old color photos to be color-graded for use at WP or other projects via Commons. I'm not sure what kind of "neutrality" question could come up about this one. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 16:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is important to question the accuracy of colorizations of the photos of Nazi and fascist figures, as some of these colorizations can be completely ludicrous and overly symbological (some examples on K.e. coffman's userpage). Curbon7 (talk) 21:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
C - for the key reason that, even though it was taken with Hitler in an official capacity, it is arguably among these photos the least controlled and manipulated one, i.e. the one that does not fully succeed in projecting a propaganda message. A simple visual reproduction of propaganda would contravene NPOV and none of the images manage to avoid this as they are sourced from either Fascist or Nazi official sources. Ideally a non-propagandistic photo should be found but that seems unlikely. If not C, then I would favour F (the pose corresponds to a school photo of 14-year-old Mussolini who was not a fascist yet[1]). A and D are the worst offenders, both project an image of a visionary statesman and D is from the Nazi press targeting occupied Europe[2]. The "jawsplaying" and the effect of emerging from a dark background in A is standard Mussolini visual self-promotion[3]. VampaVampa (talk) 23:36, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
^A. Antola Swan, Photographing Mussolini, London 2020, pp. 219–224.
^See Antola Swan 2020, p. 212–213, for an interpretation of A, and otherwise the updated photo descriptions for their origin and for the bombastic propaganda caption accompanying D.
B or D: Both seems to be offical portraits, with one adding colour a part of history we only see in black and white. Cossde (talk) 15:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps they ought to be addressed each in its turn for a consensus to be reached. That is why I suggested bringing them together for easier reference. VampaVampa (talk) 05:24, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As previously indicated by Szmenderowiecki, Choices (E) and (F) have failed to gain much traction since this Rfc was opened over 3 weeks ago. For this reason, I have removed them from the range of choices available in order to help bring this debate to a conclusion. With that being said, please set forth which image option you prefer below.
Please stop pinging me. There's sufficient support for the status quo to close this RFC and save everyone the time. Nemov (talk) 17:11, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, on both counts. As I stated above, I don't have any strong opinions on the matter, but A is fine. It looks like all the available images are less than ideal in one way or another, and we're not approaching an alternative consensus here. I say close as "no consensus" and keep the status quo for the time being. Generalrelative (talk) 18:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Generalrelative You have the right to vote for the status quo. However, in light of the number of editors who have voice opinions in opposition to it, closing the Rfc would be premature. Emiya1980 (talk) 18:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Um, no, you were irrationally and grossly uncivil to Nemov, for no reason. Nemov has nothing to strike or apologize for, having simply asked you to stop pinging, which is a reasonable request. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 01:04, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had wanted to avoid discussing this issue any further on this page. However, seeing as how yet another editor has seen fit to pile on, I see I have little choice but to address the issue directly. The comment I made to which you are referring (while admittedly rude) did not arise in a vacuum. On at least two prior instances, Nemov has openly accused me in the middle of an Rfc thread of wasting other editors’ time while trying to solicit opinions toward a consensus (see the ongoing Rfc on Frederick the Great’s talk page for more evidence). Based on my reading of the essay on civility, such comments are not in accord with its guidelines on politeness and courtesy either. While I admit to the uncivil nature of my prior comment on this page, Nemov (and any other editor taking his side for that matter) should take his comments into consideration before leaping to judgment against me. Emiya1980 (talk) 23:43, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To all other viewers of the thread, I apologize for the argument between myself and Nemov above. Since it only serves to disrupt the Rfc, I have already attempted to strike it but have been prohibited from doing so. Feel free to post your opinions and any objections you may have to the Rfc on this thread. However, please avoid personal attacks or other examples of incivility. For purposes of this Rfc, I think it would be constructive for everyone to take this into account. Thank you.Emiya1980 (talk) 21:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, I am not opposed to the status quo picture, it being among one of my acceptable versions, even if I somewhat prefer another. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 01:04, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Try actually reading what I wrote, maybe? How was I somewhat prefer another unclear? Repeat: Prefer D since it's in color, is sensibly illustrative, and not contrived or weird like E. After that, probably A, C, B, E in decreasing order. It's not necessary for you in particular to understand personally which version someone else prefers and to keep trying to enumerate them. That kind of activity at an RfC is not helpful or constructive. It is the role of the closer to assess the consensus level of the available options (though it's rather obvious this will be "no consensus" at this point and thus default to the status quo. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 16:25, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did read what you wrote. Your post was ambiguous. It sounded like you were voting for the status quo notwithstanding your prior preferences to the contrary. Any objective editor looking to close would find such clarification helpful in that regard. Emiya1980 (talk) 22:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know why I have been pinged. But the best image, imo, is the current image A. It's a close-up, and not wearing a hat. You see his whole face. Mussolini looks intimidating. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:15, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]