Talk:JD Vance

Mamaw and Papaw

Why is the nicknames he used as a child for his grandparents in any way notable and encyclopedic? Having endearing names for close family members is so common in the US as to compare with a statement that a person learned to tie their shoes as a child. -- 71.223.46.218 (talk) 16:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Because of his memoir (and film) Hillbilly Elegy. They are central characters there. This is what catapulted him into politics.

2601:19E:427E:5BB0:6970:174:4892:A5F5 (talk) 02:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

"He was announced"?

the principal text states: "j.d. vance was announced" as vp pick at rnc convention. Look, the roll call vote of the delegates will confirm him as vp nominee in a matter of minutes. I canoot edit the article, but let's write on the present: he is the vp pick 189.71.124.204 (talk) 19:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Can an administer set this page to semi-protected/protected?

It hasn't even been an hour since J.D. Vince has been announced there VP choice for Trump and this page is already being subject to vandalism and misinformation/disinformation. I can only guarantee that this page will get vandalized more as we head closer to the election. CavDan24 (talk) 20:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I've already semi-protected the article. There is currently a request to upgrade the protection to ECP at WP:RFPP. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 20:44, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! CavDan24 (talk) 21:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Senate election

the fact that Vance underperformed the republican ticket during the 2022 election (compare 2022 United States Senate election in Ohio lead) should be mentioned in this article. — jonas (talk) 21:06, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Summa cum laude???

The article claims, "Vance later attended the Ohio State University, graduating in 2009 with a Bachelor of Arts degree summa cum laude in political science and philosophy." This sentence has two references. Neither of the references says anything about him graduating summa cum laude. I believe this "summa cum laude" claim should be removed from the article, unless and until someone finds actual sourcing of this claim to Ohio State. MelanieN (talk) 21:49, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

This New York Times article published today verified that claim. Cullen328 (talk) 21:57, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

That should settle it, but... I do wonder if the Times reporter got that information from reading Wikipedia! I can't find anything at Ohio State University websites that mentions any honors at graduation for him. This, for example, doesn't mention summa cum laude. You'd think they would call attention to it. Not being an alum myself, I can't consult their alumni directory. Well, I still have my doubts, but I guess I will replace the two worthless references with the Times article. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

@MelanieN Yeah that'd be wild. Alexysun (talk) 04:43, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

This OSU 2009 commencement bulletin (page 30) confirms that Hamel (Vance's surname at the time) did indeed graduate Summa Cum Laude. I haven't added this as a reference to the article, because I think the NYT article is sufficient, but in case anyone wanted additional confirmation, or if you think it should be a reference, I'll leave it here. Mik Kanrokitoff (talk) 16:12, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for finding that. A difficult search since he was then using a different surname! But that confirms that he did indeed graduate Summa and we can leave it in the article. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:37, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Opening sentence

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but why has Vance's title in the opening sentence been reduced to "politican and lawyer"? It formerly referenced his status as a venture capitalist and author, which provides extensive detail on his background. Donald Trump's page notes him for various aspects of his career, for instance. While I think that venture capitalist is just one part of his career, "author" is what he became mostly known for and I feel that it deserves to be in the opening sentence. Again, I don't want to reinvent the wheel if this has already been discussed, but I would argue for returning "author" or "memoirist" to the first lead paragraph. PickleG13 (talk) 22:01, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree @PickleG13. Mainstream reports describe him as author, venture capitalist and Vice-Presidential candidate, which would swap out for politician. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 07:23, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Eastern Kentucky roots

Vance's family was from the hills of Eastern Kentucky. He also spent summers visiting relatives with his grandparents in Jackson, Kentucky. His family also has ties with the Hatfield's and McCoy's. I feel like this should be mentioned in the article.  Kentuckian |💬   23:38, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Philanthropy

Wondering if he has contributed to causes in the rust belt where he grew up 🔝 69.126.93.15 (talk) 00:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes.

He started "Our Ohio Renewal", a 501(c)(4) advocacy organization that focused on education, addiction and other "social ills" in his native areas. NPR link here:

https://www.npr.org/2024/07/15/nx-s1-5040236/jd-vance-vice-president-trump-rnc

2601:19E:427E:5BB0:6970:174:4892:A5F5 (talk) 02:21, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Good points: I have added this citation now.MatthewDalhousie (talk) 08:19, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2024

Last week, Vance in an interview with "Meet the Press" said that he supports the abortion pill mifepristone "being accessible" after the Supreme Court ruled against pro-life advocates who sued to end its Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval. Source: msn.com July 15,2024 7:30 pm 2601:40A:8100:4BD0:D98E:C7AF:1BD8:A260 (talk) 01:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

 Already done "In July, one week before Vance was announced as Trump's running mate, Vance told NBC's Meet the Press that he likewise supported access to mifepristone.[106]" is already in the article Jcoolbro (talk) (c) 15:57, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

"False claims" of election fraud are actually "Yet unproven" claims

When reporting the results of investigation(s) into allegations, a good reporter will always make a distinction between a reference to "false claims" versus a reference to a "current lack of identified evidence". Ergo, it is never wise to report that there is "no evidence" of the allegation(s). A "current lack of identified evidence" of an allegation is most accurately referred to as "no identified evidence". To say otherwise infers that nothing more can ever be learned about the allegation(s). 72.55.241.35 (talk) 02:36, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

They are in fact false claims

- Klausklass (talk) 04:06, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Should there be a summary of Vance's ideology in the lead?

I added this paragraph into the lead:

During his time in the Senate, Vance has been described as a neoreactionary, national conservative, and a right-wing populist, as well as an ideological successor to paleoconservatives such as Pat Buchanan. He has cited Curtis Yarvin, Rod Dreher, and Patrick Deneen as political influences. Vance has been considered a maverick for his willingness to break from Republican orthodoxy and supports raising the minimum wage, furthering unionization, a robust and interventionist antitrust policy, and has opposed many foreign policy interventions, including continued American military aid to Ukraine during the ongoing Russian invasion.

Which I think is a good, neutral, concise, and WP: DUE summary of his main political influences and actions while in the Senate, yet this was subsequently removed because it repeated information elsewhere in the article. I'm fine with revising the wording. But most of this is definitely notable enough to remain in the lead of the article and has been both mentioned and affirmed by an overwhelming amount of reliable sources.

Do you have a suggested alternate to this summary? Open to suggestions, @Esterau16:.KlayCax (talk) 03:51, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Stop putting duplicate paragraphs in the article. Look for consensus on whether the paragraph should be in the lead or political positions section. Esterau16 (talk) 04:13, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Leads are supposed to summarize information contained in the body of an article's page. You completely removed important, WP: DUE information about the candidate.

Political ideologies and influences indisputably belong in the lead of the page. KlayCax (talk) 04:27, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Tagging other editors who have recently edited per WP: CANVASS rules, @BootsED:, @Michael V Gold:, @FieldMarine:, @Dancingtudorqueen:, @TDKR Chicago 101:, @Dmhll:. KlayCax (talk) 05:55, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I just added a one-sentence summary of Vance's ideologies to the lead. I didn't see this discussion beforehand. Apologies! BootsED (talk) 06:08, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I reinstated Ukraine, a brief mention of influences, and "maverick" economics as well, as all have been mentioned repeatedly as well. Although I substantially trimmed out the fat. Does this work?

During his time in the Senate, Vance has been described as a neoreactionary, national conservative, and a right-wing populist. He has cited Curtis Yarvin, Rod Dreher, and Patrick Deneen as influences. Vance has been considered a maverick from Republican orthodoxy on economics, supporting raising the minimum wage, unionization, tariffs, antitrust policy, while also opposing American military aid to Ukraine.

See National Review, Politico, ABC News, AP News, The American Conservative (written by his friend Dreher no less!), and many others who have all overwhelmingly mentioned these things. KlayCax (talk) 06:42, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I would normally oppose mentions of "influences" in the leads of political figures. But we do when individuals repeatedly cite particularly people: and Vance has consistently mentioned Dreher, Deneen, and Yarvin as his main three influences. Reliable sources also repeatedly bring this up in every profile of him. (Like the other things listed.) It seems to merit inclusion to me. Albeit I see how that sentence will probably have less of a consensus than the rest.

Would you agree with me? Or not? We could trim it down further. But in my view we start losing important information after this. KlayCax (talk) 06:48, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I have to run for a few hours, but I'll be back after, will respond when I get back from work. @BootsED:. KlayCax (talk) 07:07, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I think your three-sentence political outlook paragraph is solid @KlayCax, and I agree that setting out these influences are important for the article. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 07:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Esterau16, please see MOS:LEAD. The leading section is meant to be a summary of the content of the article, so it may well repeat material from the body of the article. This is fine and meets due weight given so many reliable sources are mentioning these points. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 08:37, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Large block quotes

Can we please stop inserting large block quotes such as these? As an encyclopedia, it is a good practice to summarize sources. Repeating them verbatim has several disadvantages, which I talk about a bit more in User:Novem Linguae/Essays/Problems with quotes#Problems with quotes. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:51, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't mind seeing a few quotes of things the subject has said, especially as he is described as an author, seems relevant. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 07:30, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Naming

I thought that only toy characters, and film chararcters can be named in shortened form on an encyclopedia, like G.I.Joe, G.I.Jane. Is not it a requirement here to show a first name+surname (middle name is optional like everywhere) ? If anyone (famous people) would start to modify his/her own wikipedia page to the former children nickname or how their mate/family member call them, or to the used sign at kindergarten, the whole wikipedia would be totally chaotic in a minute. 82.131.147.209 (talk) 04:12, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

The subject is a published author, using that name.

MatthewDalhousie (talk) 07:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

For the first now he is a politician, not a fictional character, toy character, so should be used full name not just initials. And there is a plenty of people with Vance surname, initials adds almost nothing for a quick identifications between the same/similar people. 82.131.147.209 (talk) 12:27, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

The usual guidance is WP:COMMONNAME. See J. K. Rowling, O. J. Simpson, P. J. O'Rourke, and many others. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:23, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2024 (2)

Change Criticism of Women in the workplace to Supports Motherhood.

This section is currently a biased misrepresentation. 2600:6C83:740:2D:C22:488A:85D2:2840 (talk) 07:46, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Already removed. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 09:20, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Private "Facebook" messages violate WP:BLP

I think this is a biographical article and we need to be careful about WP:BLP, especially on content that is based on private messages, that are largely unproved, and reported by secondary or tertiary sources. One such content is : In a private message on Facebook he described Trump as "a cynical asshole like Nixon" and "America's Hitler".

There are no primary sources that verify these claims, though it has been reported in some secondary sources.

I think it violates the standards for WP:BLP : This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is poorly sourced, especially if potentially libellous, should be removed. RogerYg (talk) 09:16, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Even the latest NY Times biographical article on JD Vance (July 15, 2024) does not mention private message, and Wikipedia must follow WP:BLP standards not applicable to tabloids and magazines, which report unverified private messages.

''Criticism of Trump'': During the 2016 campaign, Mr. Vance sharply criticized Mr. Trump, describing him as “cultural heroin” and as a demagogue who was “leading the white working class to a very dark place.” He described himself as “a Never Trump guy.” In a Twitter post that he has since deleted, he called Mr. Trump “reprehensible” because he “makes people I care about afraid. Immigrants, Muslims, etc.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/15/us/politics/who-is-jd-vance-trump-vp.html

RogerYg (talk) 09:30, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree. KronosAlight (talk) 17:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

J.D. Vance once compared Trump to Hitler. Now they are running mates from Reuters. Primary sourcing is not only not necessary, it is less desirable than secondary sources. In no way does the "America's Hitler" comment violate BLP. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Pointers to the official policy preferring secondary sources:

WP:SCHOLARSHIP Prefer secondary sources – Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible.

WP:RSPRIMARY Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources, i.e., a document or recording that relates to or discusses information originally presented elsewhere. Arcturus95 (talk) 19:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

iwish you well in your political career 102.90.64.237 (talk) 19:13, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

That has multiple sources. Not sure why it would be called "contentious" or "poorly sourced".

We can add even more additional sources (including the one mentioned by @Muboshgu above) if you like. Arcturus95 (talk) 18:45, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Additional sources all supporting the original content.

1. [1] Trump names JD Vance, once one of his fiercest critics, as 2024 running mate

2. [2] ‘America’s Hitler’: All the Times J.D. Vance Trashed Trump

3. [3] In first interview as VP candidate, JD Vance explains why he called Trump 'America's Hitler' Arcturus95 (talk) 19:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

In the USA today article, JD Vance never acknowledged saying "America's Hitler", rather it's a broad statement about being skeptical of Trump. The article title seems mischievous, and USA Today is not a reliable WP:RS source

Vance told Fox News he was initially wary of Trump in 2016.

Monday, the Ohio senator said he has changed his mind.

{USA today comment on Private message}

"I don't hide from that. I was certainly skeptical of Donald Trump in 2016, but President Trump was a great president and he changed my mind. I think he changed the minds of a lot of Americans," Vance told Fox's Sean Hannity in a friendly interview.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/07/15/jd-vance-past-trump-criticisms-abortion-shooting/74418450007/

RogerYg (talk) 19:25, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:BLP articles have a higher standard of Wikipedia:Verifiability

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability

" four types of information must be accompanied by an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports[b] the material. The four types are":

direct quotations,

material whose verifiability has been challenged,

material whose verifiability is likely to be challenged, and

contentious material about living and recently deceased persons.

Any material that needs an inline citation but does not have one may be removed. Please immediately remove contentious material about living people (or existing groups) that is unsourced or poorly sourced. RogerYg (talk) 19:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

But the material is not unsourced nor is it poorly sourced. In fact we have plenty of reliable sources. Arcturus95 (talk) 19:39, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

1. You are ignoring the other sources that back up those comments.

2. Where does it say USA Today is not a reliable source? It is reliable per WP:USATODAY.

3. Also, the USA Today article clearly says he made those comments. The third paragraph of the article is:

"I go back and forth between thinking Trump is a cynical asshole like Nixon who wouldn't be that bad (and might even prove useful) or that he's America's Hitler," Vance wrote in a 2016 message to a friend.

Arcturus95 (talk) 19:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Previously, several hundered Wiki editors have largely agreed that content whoose source is private Facebook messages, as is the case ( "American Hitler", which was allegedly sent in a private Facebook message by JD Vance), are generally not reliable. Please see the discussion:

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people

"American Hitler" is a claim based on a private Facebook message as reported in some sources, but has not yet been acknowledged by JD Vance.

This is a claim by USA today in this artilce: "I go back and forth between thinking Trump is a cynical asshole like Nixon who wouldn't be that bad (and might even prove useful) or that he's America's Hitler," Vance wrote in a 2016 message to a friend.

If in some interview, Vance is directly quoted as acknowledhing it, then we may discuss to include it, if there is a consensus. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 19:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

If in some interview, Vance is directly quoted as acknowledhing it, then we may discuss to include it, if there is a consensus.

That is not how sourcing works. The subject of the article does not have to acknowledge it. Reliable sources have to include it. Arcturus95 (talk) 19:45, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Let us wait for more inputs from other editors, since this topic is not so simple, and it does relate to WP:BLP & Wikipedia:Verifiability issues.

Previously, multiple editors discussed it for several weeks as below to gain consensus, which was against Facebook message content.

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people

Thanks for your patience, as we need more input from other editors on this issue. RogerYg (talk) 19:52, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I think you are misunderstanding that RFC. We cannot use Facebook as a source. However, statements from Facebook comments, messages, posts, etc can be included if they are sourced from reliable sources. Arcturus95 (talk) 20:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

JD Vance

JD Vance can NOT be a retired US Marine when he only served 4 years. Please correct Wikipedia srticle. 2603:9001:5DF0:1A0:5C3C:33DB:6968:1F0B (talk) 11:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2024 (3)

Footnote 7 attributes a quote in New Statesman to Vance; if you read the New Statesman article in question, it quickly becomes clear that the quote wasn't said by Vance, it was said by Dreher. 2A02:C7C:5CBB:F800:44B6:43CF:BC50:726F (talk) 12:03, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

"Cathedral and the Bazaar" link

"The Dark Enlightenment and neoreactionary thought" currently links to the article on Eric S. Raymond's "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" in the bit about Curtis Yarvin's thought. While there's probably some amount overlap between the politics of Vance, Raymond, and Yarvin, "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" is an essay on software development from 1997 and doesn't really have anything to do with Yarvin's idea of "the Cathedral". This would probably be better off linking to a description of Yarvin's beliefs (or just left unlinked). Brennen (talk) 14:06, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Lawyer Or Not?

Dear Wikipedia editors: The first sentence of this article states that JD Vance is a lawyer. I understand he has a Juris Doctor from Yale, but in what state does he hold a law license? If he does not hold a law license (which requires passing a state’s bar exam) then he is not a lawyer. If he is a lawyer, then my apologies. 2600:1008:B0A2:441A:1D80:FBF3:F188:DF15 (talk) 15:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

In the early career section, the article states that he worked as an attorney. RudolfRed (talk) 16:06, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

“Neoreactionary allegations”

No strong opinions on this either way but an “allegation” is the assertion that a person has done something wrong.

Neoreactionaries take their beliefs to be true/good, and it’s not our place on Wikipedia to say one way or another if they’re correct or not.

Should we just leave it more neutral as something like “Ideology” or whatever it was before? KronosAlight (talk) 16:25, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

People are also completely misunderstanding what the neoreactionary movement is. Vance has explicitly cited The Dark Enlightenment and neoreactionary thought as one of his major influences. Repeatedly.

Per Politico:

Among his other current intellectual influences, Vance has cited the conservative localist Rod Dreher, the reactionary blogger Curtis Yarvin and the “postliberal” Catholic philosopher Patrick Deneen.

The rewritten sentence also claims that he's been identified as a member of the "alt-right" which isn't found in any of the sources. KlayCax (talk) 18:51, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2024 (4)

Add the height of the candidate (which is being debated on Reddit and was just recently edited on IMDB). He is not 5'7, but 6'2. This checks out with pictures next to others (ex. Trump who is >6ft tall)

Also see this cittaion https://www.imdb.com/name/nm8577419/ ConsensusJen (talk) 17:13, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Combat Veteran

This entry says Vance is a combat veteran. If you are a Marine and you have experienced combat, you are awarded a Combat Action Ribbon. Doesn't appear that Vance has one. Therefore, he is not a combat veteran. Fix his Wikipedia entry. 2600:8800:4706:C00:3981:139:CB10:142C (talk) 17:24, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

You only receive a CAR under certain conditions, usually you must return fire in a firefight. It is a personal award, and not necessarily the only indicator of a combat veteran. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 19:50, 16 July 2024 (UTC)