Talk:Tupac Shakur

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Released Studio Albums Section

The Makaveli the Don album is in the wrong section. It should be in the posthumously released section because it was released after his death. Although he recorded the material before his death the album was released posthumously. Having this album in the released studio section is misleading.]] </gallery>

|}Fixed License2Kill 03:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The makaveli album still appears in the studio albums section. Either add a footnote that it was released posthumously or place it in the posthumously released section.

The titles of the sections were changed License2Kill 23:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This is because Tupac had complete creative input on this album and the post death ones dont

HELP

I'm trying to redirect "Tupac" here because when someone says tupac they mean 2pac Makaveli the Don Killuminati Shakur. But I'm having trouble with the header and keeping the disambiguation page a disambiguation page hahahahahha. HELP PlZ!?!

Looks like it's fixed now License2Kill 03:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The Lawsuit against Suge/Death Row/Kenner

The text of this lawsuit is online somewhere, I don't remember where, but it maintains (and the court agreed) that the money alleged by Knight to have been for Tupac's bail (1.4 million), was not paid in full by Knight or Death Row, but by Interscope Records, with a 300 thousand dollar payment and the potential earning power of Shakur as collateral. Knight's assertations that he or Death Row bailed Tupac out of jail in return for the 3 album deal were and are the beginning of the basis of the lawsuit the estate filed.

LoganRage 11:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)LoganRage Oct.12 4:05AM

Tupac's birth name

I think your idea is ridiculous and dis-repectfull to his mother, yes Tupac was not born with such a cool name but his mother changed it and you are no-one to suggest that we revert back, are you his mother ? I think that is the only person with the authority on making a decison on what the world called Tupac was Afeni. I see it as a inherent right of a mother to name her child and no-one has the right to change it, including that person. 07-22-2006 Mizpac

I agree completely—it's up to his mother to say what the right answer is. What do you propose? Do you think an e-mail to Afeni or 2Pac Legacy would be useful? -Mysekurity 03:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

"It has been rumored that Shakur's birth name was Lesane Parish Crooks, but this has been proven false."

Should that statement be removed? The source is "Holler If You Hear Me" but in that book I do not remember them mentioning "Lesane Parish Crooks". Has this been proven false or has it just not been proven true?

Rephrase, not remove. So far as I know there are no reliable sources supporting this but it has not been proven false. KillerChihuahua^?!? 10:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I found some sources. answers.com seems to be the best one though. I think it's true

http://www.answers.com/topic/tupac-shakur

http://www.secondhandsongs.com/artist/11224.html

http://www.nndb.com/people/548/000024476/

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/entertainers/music/tupac-shakur/

http://www.studentcentral.co.uk/unsolved_murder_lesane_parish_crooks_more_widely_4318/

http://www.popstarsplus.com/music_tupac.htm

Jowan2005

Althought that would have been great a few months ago, it has already been confirmed and included License2Kill 21:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

TUPAC IS THE ONLY GREATEST RAPPER EVER LIVED...NO ONE CAN REPLACE WHAT HE HAD!

TUPAC NEVER PLAYED GUITAR

It has not been included. I added it and it was taken out by Mysekurity. I did a quick few-minute google search and quickly I am able to find 7 sites all saying that Lesane Parish Crooks was his true birth name. and Mysekurity says "very few websitesm, and even fewer notable sources, list Lesane or Parish as his name" OK well I proved that wrong. If I can find 7 sources before going onto page two of google then it's not "very few website" I'm sure I could probably find hundreds. The only thing I made a mistake one was how to cite the source, that does not mean it should be removed, that means someone should fix it. --Jowan2005

I changed it back and sourced it correctly. I think it should just say "Name" instead of "Birth name" because that could confuse some people into thinking "Tupac Shakur" was only his stage name. His real name was Parish Lesane Crooks and that is confirmed in Tupac Shakur Legacy an official book a much better source then some fansite that is probably making a mistake that they found on some other site License2Kill 03:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Either it read Parish, Lesane Crooks, signifying Parish being his middle name, or the book was mistaken. Yes, books make mistakes to, even official ones. I read an interview with his mother saying that it is Lesane Parish Crooks.

Anyone know how you could change the "Birth name" to "Given name"?

One would have to change the template, which would affect every article the template is used on. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Would it be possible for one to create a new template? License2Kill 05:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It would be deleted as duplicate effort, a type of fork. KillerChihuahua^?!? 14:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say, but seven sites is not a substantial number to back up a fact like this. I've got nothing against the name, it's just I would like a little proof. Is anyone who has Tupac Shakur Legacy willing to look this up? and perhaps cite the book properly (page number, etc.) with {{cite book}}? The reason I'm skeptical of those unnoficial sources is that his official website mentions nothing of the names Lesane, Parish, or Crooks (click 2Pac in the main window). Anyone else have any thoughts to add? -Mysekurity 03:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Not entirely sure on the best method to resolve this, but as it stands something is listed as fact, but the page doesnt provide anything to convince me that it's the case, in fact im decidedly sceptical. The referenced source is a book without an ISBN or page number, and even if this is stated in the book referenced, are biographies by fans sufficient sources to reference, if they dont cite a source themselves? Dont want to edit, because im not too sure what's better, but "Out of fear of someone hurting her son Afeni Shakur put the name Parish Lesane Crooks on the birth certificate, but changed his name one year later" need to change. Provider uk 17:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not a fan made biography, it's an official biography License2Kill 19:05, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Please cite it correctly, then. And if possible, show where in the text it says this. Until it has been corroberated by an outside source (maybe try e-mailing Afeni?), the dubious tag will stay up. -Mysekurity 01:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a little dubious. I think emailing Afeni would constitute Original Research... It seems like Wikipedia is limited to waiting for Afeni to say something specifically on the subject in a national publication or something... which seems a little unlikely, but hey...SqlPac 00:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I fixed the citation. It's on page 9. License2Kill 02:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The Las Vegas Police Department report of the shooting lists Lesane Parish Crooks as one of Tupac's aliases. I propose adding that "Lesane Parish Crooks" is a confirmed alias and citing the LVPD police report. Whether or not it was his "birth name", however, would still be up in the air until someone finds something substantial to back up that claim.

It's not an alias, I yet to hear a single person refer to him as Lesane Parish Crooks besides a few sites that are probably basing the statement on a rumor. Tupac's family is the better source on the subject of his name License2Kill 19:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

As Winston Churchill once said, "Don't let the 'better' get in the way of the 'good'." The 'best' source on the subject would be Tupac himself, but obviously that's not going to happen. How likely is it that his family will come out and say something on this issue to a "verifiable" source out of the blue? Seems highly unlikely. So if you don't consider official public-record police reports to be "verifiable" sources (in which case plenty of other content from this page and Wikipedia in general needs to be removed immediately), then maybe you could find out where the LVPD got their information from and cite that as a "verifiable" source. It's hard to imagine some beat cop just pulled that "alternate name" (since you don't like the word "alias") out of his rear end to put on an official incident report.

His family is obviously the better source License2Kill 20:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia obviously doesn't limit its content to the "better source". Last I read, it had to be a "verifiable source". And by Wikipedia's own policies, a "verifiable source" doesn't have to be abandoned because there is a theoretical "better source". Assuming you did take the initiative and were able to contact Tupac's family, and they did tell you personally one way or the other, how would I and thousands of other Wikipedia readers "verify" that information with the source? Are you planning to publish their phone number as well so curious readers can verify it?

BTW, speaking of the "BETTER SOURCE", Tupac's *BIRTH CERTIFICATE* says his birth-name is "Tupac Amaru Shakur". If the "BETTER SOURCE" is your criteria, I'd say a Birth Certificate trumps a posthumous biography any day of the week.

Who ever said I contacted Tupac's family? Did you even look at the citation? It is from an official biography License2Kill 06:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Who ever said you contacted Tupac's family?! I proposed a theoretical situation in which you might "take the initiative" to contact them. After all, you're the one proposing that they are the better source. Now you propose what? That readers should use their psychic powers to read Tupac's family's minds? Did you look at the second paragraph above? To hell with your posthumous biography; his birth certificate is a much "BETTER SOURCE". Deal with it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.116.249.76 (talk • contribs) 00:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

69.116:

1. contacting Tupac's family is original research and against Wikipedia policy.
2. Where is your source which has a birth certificate reproduced, or the name on the birth certificate given?
3. Please read WP:CIVIL and abide by it. I will not hesitate to block for incivility. KillerChihuahua^?!? 00:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
4. And sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) KillerChihuahua^?!? 00:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I never contacted Tupac's family and when someone changes their name a new birth certificate is issued License2Kill 00:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Yes, contacting his family is original research; therefore unless his family is published in a verifiable source stating that he was born "Lesane Parish Crooks", then his family is not a usable source per Wikipedia policy original research.

2. The book Tupac Resurrection, ISBN 0743474341, page 9, on the left side of the page right next to the picture of Tupac as a child. It clearly states his birth name.

3. What's uncivil about this conversation? I'm just trying to get more information about this Wikipedia policy stating that information must be sourced from the "better source", and what constitutes the "better source". It appears that official government documents are not as good a source as a posthumous biography written by some guy trying to make a few bucks...

4. ~~~~

So your source states that Lesane Parish Crook's original birth certificate was destroyed and replaced in its entirety with the current one, with no reference to the original being maintained? I'm surprised; usually government agencies aren't that thorough. ~~~~

Look at the source! I never said I contacted anybody, you said that! That fact comes from the book, Tupac Shakur Legacy which is an official book. I never said his birth certificate was destroyed, I am saying the one in the book was a birth certificate from after his name was changed. License2Kill 03:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I never said you "contacted anybody". Please re-read for further guidance. I'm just wondering what your plan is exactly to use the "family" as a source, as you keep stating that they are the "better source"? Please explain. I see that the information about his name being "P.L. Crooks" has been added, and that part of it was sourced (no source on "He was named this because Afeni was fearful...") As long as you can source it from the "official book" that Afeni was fearful, and that she changed his name "a year later", it's good enough for Wikipedia. BTW, is "official book" a Wikipedia rating for a book that meets certain criteria, per some official Wikipedia policy?~~~~

Tupac's birth name, part II

Section break, this is getting ridiculous. Please sign your name with four tildes, without the nowiki tags, ok? Otherwise we just see four tildes. See WP:SIGN, thanks. Ok, what is the issue on the name? Is there a source for the LPS name at all, what is it, and what precisely does it say? Thanks much. KillerChihuahua^?!? 01:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow dude, been a while. I see you all have added a lot of good info to the Pac article. Very nice work. What's up with this old LPS argument again? I thought that was settled like six months ago? SqlPac 00:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no argument over his birth name. It has been confirmed in the latest book released by the estate of Tupac Shakur, Tupac Shakur Legacy License2Kill 03:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll have to check that book out. I assume that book is properly sourced in the article.69.116.249.76 23:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

in the book HOLLER IF YOU HEAR ME page 25, line 8 "(he was born Lesane Parish Crooks)"

but it does not state anything about his mother being fearful he would be harmed.

rise2pac 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll check that book out too. The fact that it's published is good enough for Wikipedia, so that settles that as far as Wikipedia is concerned. It would be interesting to know where the authors got their information, even though Wikipedia doesn't require anything so thorough. I think I'll head over to the article on "Earth" now and write up that Earth is the center of the Universe and flat, as this information has been published in many reliable sources over the past couple thousand years, making them "verifiable" by Wikipedia's policy. Ha. (Sort of). 69.116.249.76 23:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually you would go with the most reliable source. Anyway the author wrote the story with Tupac's aunt and cousin. His mother also took a part in the book License2Kill 01:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The most reliable source? What's the criteria for that? One might argue that thousands of prolific philosophers, astronomers, scientists, clergy, Popes, kings, scholars and teachers who have published their works over the course of hundreds of years might be considered "reliable"... What's the Wikipedia criteria for "most reliable" exactly? SqlPac 02:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Spreading Tupac's ashes in South Africa (again)

This discussion is continued from the archive because apparently we haven't finished it.

I deleted, for a third time, the unverified and unsourced statement that "Family and friends plan to spread the remaining ashes during a ceremony in Soweto, South Africa, where Nelson Mandela will be attending." There is absolutely no evidence to support the statement that Nelson Mandela will be attending the ceremony. User License2Kill has added the statement about Mandela back three times now and has not provided a reliable source for the statement. The user has given this as a source: http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/?ID=6135. Yet a reading of the source reveals that there is nothing to support this statement. The source states "During the eight-day trip, Afeni Shakur was scheduled to meet with leaders like Nelson Mandela, Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, Miriam Makeba and others." That says nothing about Mandela being at the spreading of Tupac's ashes in 2007. I have surveyed the South African media and have found no evidence to support the assertion. I suggest that the statement read: "Family and friends plan to spread the remaining ashes in Soweto, South Africa, on June 16, 2007 which is Shakur's 36th birthday" which is verifiable with the source provided. Can others please add their thoughts on this here so that we can resolve this issue. Thank you. Lionchow 20:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Keep it deleted. L2K, find a source and post it here on TALK for discussion, or drop it. Edit warring over this is not helping the article. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/arts/articulate/200609/s1739745.htm License2Kill 23:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a post from a public user - anything under the "articulate" header is like a blog. Not a RS. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, what about Pretoria News? Anyone know anything about this source? [1] KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

"during a ceremony attended by the country's former president, Nelson Mandela." http://www.smh.com.au/news/music/his-life-after-death/2006/09/12/1157826940955.html License2Kill 23:37, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok we now have the Sydney Morning Herald and Pretoria News. IMHO we add it, and add both references. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

If you read the Sydney Morning Herald closely it says "That new reputation will be reinforced today when his remaining ashes are scattered at a sacred site in Soweto, during a ceremony attended by the country's former president, Nelson Mandela." The 'today' that it refers to is the date of the article, Sept 13, 2006. As we now know, this did not happen. There is no article that says anything about Mandela being there in 2007. We should not assume that he will be there in 2007 from this one article, this is an encyclopedia, and we should have pretty strict standards. If you read the Pretoria News article, it says nothing about Mandela. Also, why is it that only one Australian newspaper has this mention of Mandela being present, and not a single South African newspaper does, or any newspaper anywhere else for that matter? I live in South Africa and have been following this in the media, and there has been no mention of the Mandela being at the event. Below are 8 different articles from South African newspapers, none of which mention Mandela. When doing research and writing a summary of that research, one should not get an idea in one's head of what should or shouldn't be included and then seek out sources to confirm one's own belief, but should rather survey a wide variety of sources and summarize the overall findings. Again, I suggest that the statement read: "Family and friends plan to spread the remaining ashes in Soweto, South Africa, on June 16, 2007 which is Shakur's 36th birthday" which is verifiable by multiple sources. Lionchow 07:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

http://www.capetimes.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3428027 http://capeargus.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=49&fArticleId=3427833 http://www.thestar.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3427783 http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=283305&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/ http://www.pretorianews.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3427610 http://www.dispatch.co.za/2006/09/07/SouthAfrica/atupac.html http://www.tonight.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3354561&fSectionId=431&fSetId=251 http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?from=rss_South%20Africa&set_id=1&click_id=&art_id=vn20060907093729790C168915

Concur, the statement in the article must reflect what the sources say. KillerChihuahua^?!? 09:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I edited the Mandela thing out until we can source it, also changing the postponed date from 1996 to 2006. --Guinnog 09:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Nicely done, also appreciate the date fixes. KillerChihuahua^?!? 09:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Makaveli clothes

I'm surprised there isn't at least a mention of the Makaveli line of clothes Afeni released. I'll have to do some further investigation. As a side note; I have a Makaveli hoodie that's black with a gray carpeted Makaveli M on the front, covered in red, white, and blue paint. The first day I wore that to school, a friend commented that it looked like someone had thrown up the flag on me. That was the last day I wore that to school. --Mysekurity 03:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Forget what your friend says, Makaveli Branded clothing is top stuff.--Easy duz it 10:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a great idea. There should definitely be a section for Makaveli Branded. I wear a lot of MB clothing. I'm interested in helping develop this article, so I'll do some studying and we can make this section. Jacon Himself 12:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

2Pac and Biggie share same lyrics

"2 of Americas Most Wanted" by 2Pac has a lyric "if you got it better flaunt it" this is interesting because Notorious B.I.G used the same set of lyrics in his Hit song "Hypnotize." I find this interesting because these Rap/HipHop succeses did not llke each other, but by "chance" they used this same idea around the same time. Any thoughts?

It's a simple phrase License2Kill 13:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

^^ He means common. It's a common phrase. I wouldn't look to deeply into it myself. --King Bee 14:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Not that it really matter, but they were indeed friends at one time. Lots of rappers use lines other rappers have used. That phrase is common in quite a few raps by quite a few rappers. That is basically the main idea behind rapping. You are always trying to out do the rapper before you. Rap is all about flauting what you have, or in most cases what you want people to believe you have. You might be surprised to find out that a lot of rappers don't actually own the cars and other things they show in their videos.The Real Stucco 15:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Stretch

There should be a section on Tupac's relationship with Stretch (from the Live Squad).

He was a great friend before and during the Thug Life-time. He was also friends with The Notorious B.I.G.

Stretch was at the sceene the first time Tupac got shot and robbed. 2pac said that Anthony Stretch Walker was involved in planning this backstab-move, while Biggie and Puffy defended their friend.

Pac said in the song Against All Odds: "And that nigga that was down for me, restin dead Switch sides, guess his new friends wanted him dead"

I've read this in a lot of places, that Stretch was brutally killed by multiple Shotgun-shots exactly, on the day, one year after the 2pac-robery.

There is no reason for the section, you can't make a section for everyone of his friends License2Kill 22:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

And definitely couldn't make a section for every one of his enemies!

Come on, it wasn't just any friend. He was accused by Tupac himself to be involved in his first shooting. And he was killed exactly one year after the shooting. Also he had a big role in all albums before, and including, the Thug Life-album. Liquid Corpse 17:06 24 September 2006 (CET)

So was Jimmy Henchman and Walter "King Tut" Johnson but we don't have sections on them License2Kill 16:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

That is a correct identification. You should do something about that. It's an online dictionary, if you know anything about it you should put it out there. /LiQ

Keep this artical we need as much information about Tupac's life we can get.--Easy duz it 10:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Tupac's 1995 mugshot

In the picture here of pac's 95 mug shot, on his left cheek, theres a noticable streak going down the side of his face. Is this a scar? Tupac was shot by travis b

I think it's just the photo. License2Kill 04:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

It has to be fake. He never has any scars like that in any other picture seen of him. And make-up couldn't even cover that up. --Ted87 22:15, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Have you never seen Resurrection?? He talks about those scars and shows them in an interview with a lady. They are from when he got into a scuffle with the off-duty atlanta cops, and they slammed him on the ground.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.229.193 (talk • contribs)

No it's not. That happened 4 years before the photo as taken License2Kill 20:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind, the mug shot is when Pac went to jail, shortly after the 1994 shooting in NYC. Pac was shot 5 times, and 2 of those were in the head. He spent 11 months in jail, plenty of time for a plastic surgeon to cover it up.12.129.98.129 02:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

no, that was from when he was charged by the police, before the shooting. Ie, when he was arrested the day after the incident, not when he was convicted the day after the shooting.

Actually the date on the picture is MARCH 8TH, 1995, the day he WENT to prison... like i said, after the shooting12.129.98.129 02:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair Use on Album Covers

We can use them solely to illustrate the album in question. That is, it's okay to display them here, on the Tupac Shakur discography page, and on the album's page itself. It is not fair use to display them on your user page, say. As such, I will remove them from the "to do" list. --King Bee 15:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Well the album covers for "All Eyez on Me" and "2Pacalypse Now" are being used to illustrate the the album(s) in question, because they are both used in the sections were it talks about the respective albums. --Ted87 06:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Religious beliefs?

I wonder why this article doesn't mention his religious beliefs? He often mentioned Jesus in his lyrics, and he even had Tattoo of a huge cross on his back. Doesn't that count for anything? EliasAlucard|Talk 17:38, 30 Sept, 2006 (UTC)

I think the reason his religous beliefs aren't included n the artice is because it isn't that relevent to the article. Plus there is some confusion by some people has to what his religon/religoius beliefs were (which may actually be good reason to include it in the article). In his songs and other places he talks about God all the time, but in one or two he down plays religon all together. --Ted87 01:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

He did a song called "Hail Mary", does that make him Catholic? If you want to add it, I'd recommend researching his religious beliefs (you might have to dig a little deeper than one tattoo) and writing it up.

Not really worth mentioning in the article, but he believed in God but not the church or a religion License2Kill 19:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think overall 2pac wasn't religious but including religious lyrics in your songs is common and i don't know if this means anything but 2pac's step dad was muslim and 2pac's name is muslim as well so he had two religious influences.

Tupac has stated that he was religious, but not christian. That is, he believed in God but was not christian. This may seem odd as there were many christian connections in his lyrics such as mentions of "i'm feelin close to Jesus" and the title "Hail Mary", but it is true. I believe that this was mentioned in Tupac: Thug Angel, Life of an outlaw (Movie) - ORBJ

Sexual assault trial

Is there any source (other than an interested one) for this:

"There is much controversy to the ruling of the case, the judge said that he did not think Tupac was guilty but sentenced him because of all of Shakur's recent run-ins with the law."

Instead, in the February 8, 1995 newspapers:

The New York Times reported that:

Justice Daniel P. Fitzgerald said, "This was an act of brutal violence against a helpless woman." He said that Mr. Shakur had been the "instigator" of an "arrogant abuse of the victim" which culminated an escalating display of arrogance as he pursued his career.

The Washington Post reported that:

A New York judge characterized the crime as "an act of violence against a helpless woman," Reuter reported, and added that the rapper "must bear full responsibility for the assault.

The LA Times reported that:

Fitzgerald turned down requests to allow the two men to remain free on bail pending appeals. In pronouncing sentence, he said Shakur's "arrogant abuse of his victim follows a pattern of escalating violence as his career progressed."

I didn't see anything suggesting that the judge did not think Tupac was guilty; I am going to (try to) change the article. If there is a news or other original source for the current version, we can revise. Cka3n

Although the prior version referred to a book, it did not have a page cite and it somewhat implausible (a trial judge sentenced a defendant in a high profile case while publicly admitting he did not think the defendant was guilty?).

I will add all three full newspaper citations to the article. Anyone who has a contradicting source, please feel free to provide a citation and a quote (and if the source's source is not apparent, please provide any citations given by the source itself) and then we can resolve any actual conflicts. Cka3n 23:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

My sources say "arrogant abuse of his victim follows a pattern of escalating violence as his career progressed." It's from a documentary, not a book.License2Kill 00:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That quote you have just provided does not say what you claim the judge said in the article. That quote says just what I said the NY Times reported. The judge thought that Tupac was guilty. The documentary you refer to is available on youtube, etc. I just watched the portion linked on the prior discussion of this section here. It did not say anything remotely like "The judge thought Tupac was not guilty." Indeed, Tupac's attorney spoke at length about the possibility of a government informant, but never suggested any such wild error on the part of the judge. Please, then, provide the part and the time of the documentary so that this can be verified.Cka3n 00:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That video is for another thing I mentioned in the thing. That's just a video clip on YouTube, not the full thing. I don't know what section of the documentary it is, but just watch the DVD and it's on there License2Kill 00:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to buy and watch a whole DVD just on the off chance that the judge said something I know he didn't say. This is true especially where the DVD was produced by his mother and it (allegedly) directly contradicts three major newspaper accounts written at the time.

I am not going to revert the article back to the newspaper version right now, and I hope that someone other than you and I can offer an opinion. However, if you have the time and/or the inclination, it would be great to know what was actually said on the DVD and who said it (e.g., was it a video clip of the judge himself, was it an eyewitness report, etc.?). Also, the business about forensic evidence is probably not needed - if the article says he disputed the claims, that is probably enough. This is an article about him, not about the sufficiency of the evidence standard for criminal charges (especially since the lack of forensic evidence marks many, many such cases everywhere except on CSI).Cka3n 00:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't matter anyway, documentaries can't be used as sources on Wikipedia License2Kill 01:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Murder: Government conspiracy

One conspiracy about the murder of Tupac is that the Government played a large role into the assassination of Tupac Skakur. His Mom, Dad and Aunt were all Black Panthers and were being hunted down by the CIA. His Aunt currently lives in exile in Cuda due to "apparently" killing a cop(s). Tupac was in the mist of it all, an emerging artist that spoke the truth. He was investigating the Freemasons and the Illuminati in his younger years and even colaberated with The Notorious B.I.G. to open the worlds eyes about The New World Order. The CIA began investigating Tupac Shakur and planned for his murder. Tupac stated in many of his songs that he was under surveillance by the government

The CIA had a program called COINTELPRO which was apparently only active from 1956-1971 but are said to be still active today. They targeted radical organisations such as the Black Panthers, KKK and American Nazi Party.

The CIA divised a plan to turn The Notorious B.I.G. and Tupac Shakur against each other. Their plan succeeded and was known as sparked the "The East West Beef". Various members of Tupac's ontourrahj said they could identify the killers but again were murdered a few days later.

Tupac was murdered on Septemember 7th 2006 returning from the MGM Grand in Las Vegas by a unknown assailant who may have been hired by the government. The car which housed the murderers amazingly vanished in the a city that was surrounded by a desert.

The Las Vegas police did quite a shoddy job in finding Tupac's assailant but managed to blame a crip who goes by the name of "Baby Lane", he later died in a unrelated shooting. Instead of closing off the crime scene they followed the black BMW which contained Deathrow CEO and Tupac that was heading for the hospital. Some accounts state that Tupac was air lifted to hospital by helicopter.

This story can be related to such figures as Martin Luthur King Jr., President JFK and Malcom X which some claim may have been murdered by the Government.

--Easy duz it 10:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, but before inserting this into the article, could we please get a look at those reliable sources, in keeping with WP:V? It's important that everybody be able to see these sources for their own research. Thanks in advance. Luna Santin 19:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It definately should be added, since a lot of people believe it License2Kill 01:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

A lot of people believe in a lot of shit, L2K, you know that. Its no reason to clutter up this article with unfounded rumours and urban legends. KillerChihuahua^?!? 03:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

A lot of people believe the above theory so why not include it. You are obviously so narrow minded that you can't believe anything other than what you see in the papers and on tv.

I'll second that, the alive theory is given a tiny amount of space when in polls over 80% of pac fans believed he was alive. I'm not saying he is, but it's given a tiny amount of space considering how small it is. This article really shouldn't be based on people who i'm guessing don't listen to his music and think "oh it's just another alive theory, i'll rubbish it because clearly it isn't real". Let the real fans speak and manage this page.

It's not an alive theory, it's a conspiracy theory. but like the seven day theory, it should have it's own page, stating that it is a theory, with no hard proof. and until their is some, dont put it on the main page.

Songs/albums/lyrics relating to conspiracy

• "Killuminati" - before Tupacs death he wrote this song where he raps about the Illuminati

• Tupac made an album known as "The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory" which means "I'm The Don, I Will Kill The Illuminati" or something similar. "The 7 Day Theory" relates to how long it took to make the album.

Amazon.com: The Don Killuminati

--Easy duz it 10:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC) Watch the documentary by Nick Broomfield. He proposes a very compelling argument that Suge Knight orchestrated the killings of both Biggie and Tupac, which was ultimately carried out by LAPD officers. However farfetched this may seem, check out the documentary to see for yourself.

Sources:

• www.alleyezonme.com

--Easy duz it 10:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Alleyezone.com, aka 2Pac online, is a poorly sourced fan site. They also have an article titled "Tupac is alive"[2] so please don't suggest using that site as a source. They do not meet Wikipedia criteria for reliable sources. KillerChihuahua^?!? 03:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh and i suppose you know exactly what sites fall into Wikipeida's "reliable sources" do you. You never seem to make an artical of your own but choose to criticise others for making a contribution. Your a complete waste of space, get off Wiki. --Easy duz it 11:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Does it have a pic, or some hard evidense, if not,then it's not a reliable source. anything that is speculation or theories should be listed as such.

Dead or Alive?

Is Tupac Shakur dead or alive? It says that Tupac Shakur died in Friday the 13th September 2006. But they say that he is still alive though because there are songs by Tupac Shakur that came out after he died. Like Elton John's song Ghetto Gospel featuring 2pac- SCB '92 15:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

He's dead. Due to the miracles of modern recording, an artist's work can be released after death, or incorporated into new works (such as Natalie Cole's duet with her long deceased father, Unforgettable.) There are a number of people who persist in the rumour that he is alive. There is no rational reason to believe such a claim. KillerChihuahua^?!? 11:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

You may want to have a section about theories that he may be alive, which aren't all completely far-fetched. There is indeed some rationale behind such claims. For example, he was conveniently cremated before the public actually saw him dead. There is other evidence to support this. I dun know. Just my idea.Jigsaw Jimmy 15:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

We have discussed this and consensus is that the far-fetched conspiracy theorists who subscribe to these "theories" are in an extremely small minority, and there is no credible evidence to support them. Unless you have a compelling new reason to reconsider, then we will keep the status quo and not give any more webspace to these notions. KillerChihuahua^?!? 18:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Calm down dude. I was just making a suggestion. Chill, aight? Jigsaw Jimmy 17:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry... I've reverted Tupac is alive! type crap, including poorly written bits about the "theories" from this page about a million times. I am a little touchy. Apologies. KillerChihuahua^?!? 00:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

haha i gotcha. no problem. i understandJigsaw Jimmy 01:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a second article? We do have one for Paul is dead. Avalon Bound 23:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this deserves inclusion, if not the theories themselves, then at least about the hype surrounding these theories... may not need an entire article though. Sfacets 23:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

At the end of the day you don't know if he's dead or alive and if we can expand this section it would could become very conclusive. Unlike KillerChihuahua some of us don't believe everything that we read in the newspapers or see on the tv.--Easy duz it 11:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

You don't know what I believe. It does not matter what I believe. It does not matter what you believe. All that matters for the purpose of this article is what is verifiable from reliable (not blogs, fansites, or cruftsites) sources. Anyone's personal beliefs here would constitute original research, which is against Wikipedia policy. KillerChihuahua^?!? 15:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe that it DOES MATTER WHAT PEOPLE THINK! If a lot of people believe that this artical should be included it will be, it has f all to do with you and your sh*i*e remarks. It's good that someone took the time to make an artical to contribute to Wikipedia. I don't think you have actually ever put anything positive into this artical. Why are you here? --Easy duz it 16:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

It matters, of course - but not to the content of this article. Wikipedia requires a source. That is a policy, and it is not negotiable. If I was unclear, I apologise - but without a source, it is original research and it cannot be included.

As it happens, I did a major overhaul of the article about a year ago. I went to the library and checked out books for sources. I worked with other editors to find sources for questionable content. And I blocked about 100 people who vandalized this article. I also, as you can see, patiently and repeatedly explain Wikipedia policy on this talk page. I trust this answers the "what do I do here" question. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

There is a whole page on the Seven Day Theory License2Kill 00:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I beleave that tupac died but that his family and friends paid off the investigators to hustle the cremation to keep his killers from getting the satisfaction of seeing him dead.

Does it really matter? As far as the gov't is concerned, Tupac was capped so they can no longer collect taxes from him.

there should be another article only concerning myths on 2pac. interviews can show that many people still believe them. even if they are not entirely true, myths have played a large part in the history and culture of many peoples. This is a widely mentioned myth today, and is worthy of discussion. Suzpendus 13:48, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

There is, the 7 Day Theory page License2Kill 21:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

This should still be expanded! KillerChihuahua i understand what you're saying about the Wikipedia policy, but other theories with little or no evidence are being given a lot of space, a lot of people do think he's alive, and there is a lot of stuff that points to it. What about the outro to one of his albums "expect me like you expect jesus to come back" there's all this stuff and it's not even being mentioned. People who come to look at this article come to learn about 2pac yes, but they come to learn everything about him and read up on him. Many of the people will be fans, and numerous fans who listen to all of his music rather than believe newspapers and tv think he's alive, stop shutting this theory out!!

Bold textItalic text==RIAA==

Did you know that All Eyez on Me sold 7 million copies (Found this info in Source)? Meaning it would be 14 times Platinum (Diamond) if the RIAA updated it. That means that it would be the best selling rap album ever if the RIAA updated the sales. Is there a way this can be mentioned? I can get the exact page for the sourcing. License2Kill 03:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Is platinum not 1 million records? There is a wiki article on this somewhere. Which makes 2pac 7x platinum on All Eyez on Me. I think eminem is the best selling rap artist ever with over 10 million sold of The Marshall Mathers LP - Neilz - 19th October 2006

Platinum does equal 1 miliion unless you release a double disc album. The RIAA counts that has 2 albums, so techincally it would be 500,000. As for selling 7 million copies, we need to tred carfully on this. If we can find a reliable source (and possibily a back up source) then it should definalty be put in. At the same time you should mention that technically it is neither diamond nor 14 times platinum since the RIAA has to certify it. --Ted87 19:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

License2Kill, tupac has over 9million sold. All Eyez On Me is at least 18x Platnum and defintely a Diamond album. but that has nothing to do with any of us, the only way that can change is if Deathrow files and pay 500 dollars or something for another an update validation. User:Rise2pac 01:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but it is not about what Death Row is suppose to do. The RIAA has not certified it Diamond so it is still 9x Platinum. License2Kill 02:48, 1 December 2006

Licence2Kill, you also must remember that you can't base a Wikipedia article on what "may" be. For i have several sources that Notorious B.I.G.'s Life After Death has sold 9 million copies (thus making it 18x Platinum) and Outkast's Speakerboxx/Love Below has sold over 11million copies (making it 22x platinum). What the RIAA says is true, they don't just sit back and ignore albums like that (esp. records that have held records at one time or another.)

The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory did NOT sell 28 million.

The citation is completely unreliable. It estimates around that, and like I said, unreliable. If it was RIAA certified 7x platinum and sold in total 4x that worldwide, that would be a record. This would also make this one of the best selling albums of all time, which has never been indicated by any record company, nor by any certification. I am removing worldwide sales until proper citation used.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leethal (talk • contribs) 12:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you look it up on RIAA and put in the correct figures? Also, please remember to sign your posts using four tildes (~~~~). KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The source is from the official court documents from back in 2000. It is a reliable source that was used in court. The RIAA just doesn't update sales after a certain amount of time unless the label pays for it License2Kill 19:35, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

What court documents? KillerChihuahua^?!? 18:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The court documents used in a case against Jacques "Haitian Jack" Agnant License2Kill

Is there a link to this source? --Ted87 19:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.hitemup.com/tupac/lawsuit-agnant.html License2Kill 20:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the followingsection because it lacked sources

It was believed by many listeners that in the first few seconds of the song "Intro/Bomb First (My Second Reply) on the album The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory, a muffled Shakur can be heard saying but multiple audio tests and confirmation from a member of The Outlawz proved that it was indeed "Shoulda shot me". Many people believed the voice said "Suge shot me" or "Suge shot 'em". This, along with reports of Knight's strong-arm tactics with artists and other illegal business tactics including involvement with the Mob Piru Bloods street gang gave rise to a theory that Knight was complicit in Shakur's murder, as it was reported that Suge Knight owed Tupac up to seventeen million dollars in back royalties, but no evidence has been provided to support this theory.

It should be put back only if and when reliable sources can be found to support the claims made. JDoorjam Talk 20:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a fact. It was confirmed by some of The Outlawz and on MTV's Big Urban Myths. This can also be confirmed by a simple audio test License2Kill 21:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Well this is a controvercial audio clip considering its very hard to hear exactly what he says and all the conspiracy theorists claiming it was "Suge". So a source would definetely be nice considering how many people argue about this. - Tutmosis 14:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The source has already been added. License2Kill 19:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

1st/3rd Paragraphs

The First and Third Paragraphs at the beginning of the article seem to have a lot of the same stuff in them; When the third paragraph talks about his songs being about growing up in the ghetto, racial equality, etc, it is merely the same information as the first paragraph, restated. Mnpeter 00:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

2Face

there is another "2Pac album" comin out. Its a Scarface/Tupac Album called '2Face' it is due late 2006 and is co-produced by Suge Knight and J-Prince (of rap-a-lot). It is on page 122 of October 2006 issue of XXL. "JULY" Marcus 13:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

To repair

• under the label,with his fifth album

mergefrom

Well I can't put up the tag myself because of the protection but I would like to suggest merging Tupac Shakur timeline into this main article. Maybe some admin can put the tag in there for me. Thanks, Pascal.Tesson 17:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Tattoos and what significance they have

I have written a four paragraph paper on 2Pac's tattoos. Can I/When/How post it up? Thank You

H ramos36 06:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, H ramos36 - I've posted a welcome message on your talk page. That has some links which will help you figure out how to do things around Wikipedia. On the subject of tattoos, we can approach this several ways. First, do you have sources, or is it original research? By original research, that means you looked at pictures and figured it out. KillerChihuahua^?!? 11:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Its fine the way it is go to his offical website or pick up the sep 06 IS of XXL if you want a Pac timeline.

Maybe I'm just white..., but isn't his legend the important part?

I would have assumed the big thing he's known for and therefore a dominant part of this article would be his legend, i.e. how much more prolific he has been in death than in life, how much money his owners & family have made since his death from releasing music that obviously Tupac didn't consider worthy of release, and how ubiquitous his posters are within certain regions and demographics. I mean, none of the universally accepted greats, those with 100x the listenership--Elvis, the Beatles, Marley--have released that many official albums after the end of their band. So to me he's a little more like Selena--not necessarily as important musically or politically as he just fit the right niche at the right week, and in a business sense, that floors me much more than his music. The cult of personality, the demagoguery, that there are people who think he's still alive--that's what he's famous for in most of the nation. Shouldn't we mention that? --19:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, 2Pac was the top hiphop/rap artist at the time of his death. Selena was beginning a career which may or may not have ever been particularly successful. Without the talent and the success, there would be no legend. Finally, as interesting as all this might be for casual conversation, unless a reputable music commentator stated that precise thing in a highly reliable source, it is all original research - specifically excluded from use on Wikipedia. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

He made 3 albums during his life that are considered classic. License2Kill 04:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly --Easy duz it 21:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Intro is too long

I think the Intro is way too long as all the information about his life and career is already mentioned in each of the separate sections that follow. May I suggest we cut it down. Shakirfan 23:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The intro is perfect in my opinion License2Kill 06:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Lead section, the intro shouldn't be longer then 5 sentences and should just introduce the topic at hand. Most the info in this article is already/should be stated below. Although many well written wikipedia articles violate this rule, I still think the intro needs to be slimmed down a little. --Ted87 21:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the intro would be better off looking like this. Most the info is already explained in later paragraphs anyways. If it is not, then it should be added. --Ted87 21:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Tupac Amaru Shakur (June 16, 1971 – September 13, 1996) was an American rap artist, actor, activist, and poet. He is known by various alias such as: 2Pac, Makaveli and Pac. He is known in the Guinness Book of World Records as the top-selling hip-hop artist, having sold over 73 million albums worldwide. This includes over 44.5 million sales in the United States alone. Most of Shakur's songs are about growing up around violence and hardship in ghettos, racism, problems in society, and sometimes his feuds with fellow rappers. Shakur is known for the political, economic, and messages of racial equality found in much of his work. He has been ranked by many fans, critics, and industry insiders as the greatest rapper ever. Born in New York City, Tupac frequently found his family changing place of residence. In 1988, his family moved to California, where he would reside for the rest of his life. In 1990, he was hired as a backup dancer for the alternative rap group Digital Underground. Tupac's debut album, 2Pacalypse Now, gained critical recognition and backlash for its controversial lyrics. Shakur became the target of various lawsuits, and experienced legal troubles. Most notably, he was convicted of sexually assaulting a woman in 1993 (although he vigorously denied the claims). The day before the guilty verdict was issued, Shakur was shot five times in a recording studio lobby in Manhattan, wounding him. Following the incident, Shakur grew suspicious that other figures in the rap industry had prior knowledge of the shooting and did not warn him; the controversy would help spark the later East Coast-West Coast feud. After serving eleven months of his sentence, Shakur was released from prison on bail by Marion "Suge" Knight, the CEO of Death Row Records. In exchange, Shakur would release three records under the label, with his fifth album, the first ever double-disc album in hip hop history All Eyez on Me counting as two albums. On September 7, 1996, Tupac was shot four times in a drive-by shooting in Las Vegas, Nevada. On September 13, 1996, six days after the shooting, Tupac died of respiratory failure and cardiac arrest at University Medical Center, Las Vegas. Tupac's music addresses such topics as the hardships of growing up around violence in United States ghettos, poverty, racism, and his feuds with fellow rappers. During his life his music has attracted a large amount of controversy and was showcased in the media a number of times.

--Ted87 21:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I would support this trimming. Anyone else have a comment? KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It's already been trimmed down a few days ago License2Kill 20:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment

Tupac was a true legend. He will forever be one of the realist and truest MCs ever. I still love his 2pacalypse Now CD! Tupac was a "real" musician because he talked about poverty, and racism. He wasn't like these other loser rappers today talking about cars and clothes, he was an epic rapper. When Tupac said Thug life, he meant it as a meaning to improve the impoverished community and have people rise up against their own problems in life. Basically, he meant it as a positive thing. But the Media, and all those nutheads like Bob Dole and Dan Quayle, kept making Tupac to be negative. They kept trying to portray him as this evil person, wherelse he was exactly opposite. Tupac to me, represented the intelligence of the black race that the society tries to hinder and destroy. He represented the unheard of voices and the consciousness rarely seen in a lot of rappers. That's why the media and the society kept bothering him, because they knew that he was telling the truth. As Tupac said in the "Rebel of the Underground": "The world's most dangerous weapon is the educated black man"! Apparently, he was right, and that is why they feared him. Sadly, the media and the press alike were not going to quick untill Pac no longer existed, but you know what, his legacy will last forever, and as much as the ignorant society may whine and act stupid, I will always remember him as a big brother-RIP Tupac FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!

what the f*ck has that have to do with imporving this damn article? PS. SIGN YOUR COMMENT Apo2Pac 01:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Clean up

Paragraphs 1 and 3 need to be combined, two of the sentances are almost exactly the same Bigbadbyte 07:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment

dont you thinl that the rose volume 1 and 2 should be under other albums? or atleast mentioned in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.114.3.235 (talk • contribs) 02:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Done License2Kill 04:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Fuck Dre

I heard this song with 2Pac dissing Dr. Dre and Eminem, i duno how this is possible cu he died b4 em came up!! Unless he heard Infinite!! Whats with this! RealG187 15:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This song is not Tupac but someone who sounds similar. He is known as "The Realest" and the track name is "Fuck Dre". --Easy duz it 13:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Really? Thanks, I thinkn the album cover for this says the realest as the artist.. Also theres one called "Fuck Shady," but I think its just clips form Loyal to the Game. Theres a line that calls eminem a "Blond eyed causasian Bitch" but in one song it actaully goes something like "I do this for a "Blond eyed causasian Bitch", he actauly is talking about a woman and not eminem, its ust coincidence. In that song the same thing is reapted and Im sure its from loyal to the game! Its not even really rap!

Out in L.A. right after Tupac died people were hitting up all the hip-hop radio stations asking if "The Realest" was actually Tupac. Apparently he either released an album around the time Tupac died, or it started getting some radio play around that time. They even interviewed his manager on one radio station to ask if it was really Tupac or not. Turns out it wasn't :) SqlPac 16:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I rememebr the "Blond eyed causasian Bitch" part cmes from the song "Po' Nigga Blues", ill see if I can get the exact lryics... RealG187 21:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Tupac's name

Why does the background information first list his birth name and only in small text lists his real (official) name. I think it is first more important to list the person's official name and only then, in small text, to note the birth name. Northern

"Tupac Amaru Shakur" is in bold License2Kill 20:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

IF NEEDS TO BE UPDATED!!!!! PLEASE ADD THE FOLLOWING!!!!!!

His stage name of "2Pac" should be the artist name listed on his album pages as he never released a album under the name "Tupac Shakur."MrM 09:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Awards

Since his death, Tupac's body of work remains highly regarded by his fans and entertainment industry insiders alike. Here are some of the industry and fan awards Tupac has received for his work:

• At the American music awards on January 29 1996, he was awarded favorite rap/hip hop artist.
• His Album Me Against the World was nominated for best rap album in 1996.
• He was also nominated for best Solo performance in 1996 for his hit, Dear Mama.
• In 1997, his chart topping album, All Eyez On Me was nominated for best rap album.
• His singles, California Love and How Do You Want It were also nominated in 1997 for best rap performance.
• His moving single, Changes was nominated for best rap song in 1999.
• Tupac was inducted into the Hip-Hop Hall of Fame in 2002.[58]
• In 2003, MTV's "22 Greatest MCs" countdown listed Tupac as the "number 1 MC", as voted by the viewers.[59]
• In 2004, at the VH1 Hip Hop Honors Tupac was honored along with DJ Hollywood, Kool Herc, KRS-One, Public Enemy, Run-DMC, Rock Steady Crew, and Sugarhill Gang.[60]
• Also in 2004, a VIBE magazine poll rated Tupac "the greatest rapper of all time" as voted by fans.
• Again in 2004, he was nominated a Black Reel award, for his song Runnin' Dying To Live in the movie about his life, Tupac Resurrection.
• The documentary about Tupac Shakur's life, Tupac Resurrection was nominated for Best Documentary at the Oscars in 2005.
• In 2005, Top Soundtrack Song of the Year: "Runnin' (Dying To Live)" from Tupac: Resurrection by Tupac featuring The Notorious B.I.G. at the 18th Annual [SCAP Rhythm and Soul Music Awards].
• Also in 2005, MTV listed Tupac's The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory (released under the pseudonym "Makaveli") as one of the "Top 10 Greatest Hip-Hop Albums of All Time."
• At the First Annual Turks & Caicos International Film Festival held on Tuesday, October 17, 2006, Tupac Shakur was honored for his for his undeniable voice and talent and as a performer who crossed racial, ethnic, cultural and medium lines, his mother, Afeni Shakur accepted the award on Tupac's behalf.

• An upcoming award that could be honoring Tupac yet again, is a star on the Hollywood hall of fame. Various people on the internet have set up petitions for the last two years to try and get Tupac named on a star, because of his outstanding achievements made in his short lifetime.

Trivia (Tupac has heaps of unknown facts, plz add some trivia that people do not know)

PLZ ADD SUM OF THESE AND EDIT THEM...they are from www.hitemup.com

• Tupac was offered a record contract at the age of 13. Afeni however refused to let him sign anything at such a young age. She felt he had a lot to learn about the world before joining the music industry.
• Tupac intended for "R U Still Down?" to be released.
• Before becoming famous Tupac was part of the local Baltimore TV news Special. The program, called "Saturday Night Specials," was on a type of gun. Tupac spoke with great knowledge on the guns, speaking on how they were poorly and cheaply made.
• As a child, Tupac's friends often gave him clothes for Christmas and birthdays, because they were aware of the poverty in which he lived.
• The first known Tupac song is titled "When Will You Learn", a song about gun violence dedicated to a friend of his who was killed on the block. The friends name was Darren Berret. It's been said that Tupac copied the "Not wearing any shirt" dress sense from him.
• It was reported by Mike Dyson that the song "Vincent" by Don Maclean was played on repeat during Tupac's last hours.
• Tupac read for the part of "Bubba" in "Forest Gump".
• The song "When Will You Learn" and "U Don't Wanna Battle Me" (not the Ryan D track), along with a few others, were recorded on a disc which Tupac lost.
• Before he had become famous, Tupac was once paid $335 to appear in an advertisement for a local news channel. He used that money to pay for the months rent
• When Tupac got out of jail Suge arranged a private plane back to L.A, a limo, and five police officers for protection.
• Suge Knight gave Tupac money to buy Afeni a house when he came to Death Row.
• When Tupac and Keisha Morris got married, during the ceremony when the priest stated the line "...with all your worldly possessions...," Tupac said, "Well, Keisha can't have my pool table or my big screen TV."
• Pac was supposed to go on tour with Snoop and Tha Dogg Pound in October 1996. The name of the tour was "All Eyez On Us."
• Porn Star Spontaneous XXXStacy, who has been in magazines like Portfolio and Players, has a tattoo on her arm with Tupacs name and the title of the song "Keep Ya Head Up."
• THUGLIFE stands for "The Hate U Give Lil Infants F*ck Everybody"
• NIGGA stands for "Never ignorant getting goals accomplished"
• Tupac was banned from playing in many states because his concerts were wild. His song "Initiated" states "My lyrics so lethal turn coliseums to murder scenes." He was sued by a woman who was shot and paralyzed at a concert he held in 1993. She said he got the crowd too rowdy.
• Tupac was married to Keisha Morris but the marriage was nullified. In the unreleased song "Ghetto Star" with Bad Azz he says "an addict for a wife, livin the life, of a ghetto star". She has a Tupac tattoo on her arm.
• Tupac planned on being an actor before he ever thought about being a rapper.
• Tupac is in the Guinness Book of World Records as the most successful rapper of all time.
• The Bootcamp Click also had a beef with Badboy and liked the song HitEmUp. Tupac and the Bootcamp hooked up on a CD called One Nation which hasn't been released. The purpose of the album was to squash the Eastcoast/Westcoast beef and make it apparent that the beef was with Badboy, not the east.
• Death Row Records' CEO Suge Knight took Tupac to his first basketball game.
• "Flex" was supposed to be on Strictly 4 My N.I.G.G.A.Z... , but didn't make it.
• There was a time before Tupac was famous when he found out that there was a group of people pissed off and looking for him. He went home, put on his vest, strapped himself with every gun he had, knocked on the door of the people that were looking for him and said "Are you looking for me!" Apparently someone in Tupac's family put out word to make sure nothing happened to him, but they thought he was a crazy motherf*cker and respected him for it.
• Tupac studied drama at Baltimore's School For The Arts, where he rapped under the name MC New York.
• While he was with Digital Underground, someone once shoved a 12 gauge shotgun in Tupac's face because of a dispute over a girl. This occurred after Pac appeared with Digital underground at a Martin Luther King Jr. festival.
• "Me And My Girlfriend" is about his gun, not his girlfriend.
• One of Tupac's favorite actors was Jim Carrey whom he used to imitate.
• On September 16, 1996, Tupac's bodyguard, Frank Alexander, went to a tattoo parlor and got a tattoo on his shoulder which says, "In Memory of Tupac, Only God Can Judge You, Revelation 20:12."
• Rapper Treach has a tattoo of Tupac on his left arm.
• The original title of All Eyez On Me was Americaz Euphanasia
• The original title of Me Against the World was Crucify
• The original title of Strictly 4 My N.I.G.G.A.Z... was Troublesome 21
• The Outlawz were originally supposed to be on "Krazy," but they took too long to write their verses so Tupac let Bad Azz guest appear on it instead.
• Tupac had two rottweilers named Bonnie and Clyde who his uncle took care of.
• Tupac's ex-wife, Keisha Morris, has a tattoo on her arm of Tupac sitting on a chair and looking up.
• Tupac's favorite drink was Sunkist Orange Soda.
• Tupac's two favorite colors were black and gold.
• Tupac's two favorite meals were fried chicken wings with hot sauce and macaroni and cheese.
• Tupac used to work at Roundtable Pizza. He made pizzas and delivered them.
• Tupac wanted to have children, if he had a son he wanted to name him Michelangelo and if he had a daughter he wanted to name her Star.
• Tupac's first movie appearance was in Nothing But Trouble in 1991. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Changes 04 (talk • contribs) 04:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

Pointless and stolen from website License2Kill 04:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC) Its not pointless if people are learning something different about him, these are rare facts u idiot. Alot of other people have a triva section, Tupac has alot of trivia to offer. And yes most of those facts are copied, thats why they need editing stupid. Btw the other site would have copied these from other sites, these facts can be found on various UNOFFICIAL tupac sites. This is not the entire list btw, there was 4 pages worth but i cut it down. I think some of these should be included in a new trivia section, the list is song, but there are a few really good ones in there.

Anon, please read the Wikipedia policy on personal attacks. Name-calling does not make your argument more credible, nor does it make the source of this list of trivia more reliable or any more worthy of being included in this article. Flakeloaf 08:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

License2Kill why do u care about edits on Tupac anyway. Don't you LOVE notorious B.I.G, not Tupac, or update your profile and include Tupac, and after that watch your beloved cartoons.....

I hope you don't expect to stay here long acting so immature like that. Insulting somebody because you don't agree with them only works in elementary. Thing is you won't be able to find a reference for most of that. License2Kill 07:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Proof that 2Pac is DEAD!

This real autopsy image of his mutilated corpse [3] is in fact a real photograph, leaked by a source in the Police Department, and published in Cathy Scott's "The Killing of Tupac Shakur". Shouldn't his autopsy and the image be mentioned somewhere in the article. It was removed long ago from there (like 2003) and I don't understand why it's not there anymore. Power level (Dragon Ball) 16:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Because it's proven fake and highly graphic License2Kill 00:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• Doesn't matter if it's graphic or not, Wikipedia is not censored, keep in mind that there's no actual proof that it is fake... Power level (Dragon Ball) 05:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I though some reporter got it from the hospital to put in her book, when was it proven fake? Also to the main poster, why do we need to prove his dead, all the official sources already state it to be so. — Tutmosis 00:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

That's not fact, that's just what she says. It has been proven false over the years, I don't know exactly when. License2Kill 01:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

It is fake, it was proved ages ago. There is a REAL autopsy image, but it hasn't been leaked. The one from Kathy Scotts book, is FAKE.Changes 04 03:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

BTW new filmography created, check it out, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupac_Shakur_Filmography

How can he rap about his own death? Its like he knew he was gonna die! RealG187 21:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I know I'm going to die...I'm pretty sure everybody does. 70.162.66.142 11:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

1994 Shooting

The November 1994 shooting should be a lot longer then one short paragraph, its a big part of Shakurs life. It should be extended as there are alot more facts in the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Changes04 (talk • contribs)

2pac lives book

I have removed the reference to the '2005 book' released on theories that 2pac are alive. This 'book' is self-published, available to order only online, and uses a copyrighted image on its cover. An amazon reviewer claims that his order was personally signed, adding that it was "creepy" - and the official website includes explanations of such bizzare claims as a '10 day theory,' which incorporates the supposed claim that "Jesus Christ died on the cross after 7 days and was resurrected after 3" - Clearly this is not credible, and probably constitutes original research. perhaps a link to the book belongs on the 'Seven Day Theory' page, but not on the mainstream article. Brando130 15:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The image on the book is licensed by Interscope Records and it is not self published License2Kill 04:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

tupac is not dead he is still alive living in the hills

I have to ask, is this your book? I do not believe that this is a profesionally edited or published title. Saying that its published by the 'group' that it is presented by is not the same as a reputable publishing house. (The poor cover is a dead giveaway, and the official website seals the deal) - If I am mistaken, please add the publishing details and I will confirm and retract. However, in the hopes that this doesn't have to descend into an edit war, I will move the reference to the conspiracy 'book' to the "Seven Day Theory" page, rather than omitting it all together. Brando130 20:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not an author. The book is published by Solis Press. Every book is written by an author or group, this one is no different. Plus the pictures in the book are all licensed from Gobi and Interscope Records License2Kill 23:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm still hoping to avoid edit warring, but your comment that 'every book is written by an author' and reverting the page shows clearly that you're not even bothering to correctly read what I wrote. I'll try again. The mainstream article is the place for references to official releases and authorized publications, and journalism related to Tupac's life. - Its not the place to plug the unofficial documentaries and limited-release books and videos, hundreds of which exist. The 'Seven Day Theory' page is appropriate for this specific book, but again, to be diplomatic, I have left the reference to the book alone until more people reading this page can chime in with their opinions. I have added that these theories are more specifically 'conspiracy' theories - which they certainly are, and I have added a footnote to inform people that this is not a work from a major publishing house. Brando130 21:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I asked about putting this book in before and a Wikipedia admin agreed. I did read what you said, but many Tupac books aren't from a major publishing house. Even books like Got Your Back by his bodyguard. The fact is the books pictures were licensed by Interscope and people that are close to the Estate of Tupac Shakur. License2Kill 18:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

A Different World

Perhaps this shouldn't be noted but, 2Pac did do an appearance as "Piccolo", a character in the television series, A Different World (not related to the Piccolo character in Dragon Ball Z in case anyone asks). I've never seen the show, but did some research about it and saw a video on YouTube, yet, I think it should be mentioned somewhere in the article. What does anyone think? Any thoughts? Power level (Dragon Ball) 18:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Put the Years Back

I put the years he was with each label back after they were removed License2Kill 05:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Until an admin says so, no dates need to be present. It is user choice, and the dates, particularly pertaining to Death Row, are inaccurate. I know this for a fact. He is still registered on their artist roster both in materials granted to the public (Official Websites, roster posters, etc.) and on Death Row documents. Because he died before his contract was up and Death Row does own the master Death Row Recordings, Suge can still legally list him as a Death Row artist. Nothing was ended in 2002. UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 19:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Well until it is discussed and decided to be removed it stays the way it originally was. He is no longer on Death Row, he is now signed to Amaru Entertainment. After 1996 he was no longer signed to Death Row, just because his albums were released then doesn't mean he is signed then and for your information an admin put that there originally. License2Kill 20:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I already explained that he is still on Death Row and whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. Fact is he is still legally listed on the roster. And like I said, till an admin tells me not to change it I'm still going to put it back because it is not correct. Wikipedia is not here to release false information to the public. And Tupac never signed with Amaru. It is the legal estate of Shakur which established a company by way of Afeni Shakur. She owns the majority of his masters, this is true, but Suge still legally owns the Death Row masters. Therefore, because of the death before fulfillment of contractual obligations, and the ownership of the masters LEGALLY he is still considered an in-house artist on Death Row. This is why Joint ventures between Interscope, Amaru, and Death Row stood for those albums. Also, of course because his albums were released on Death Row he is still technically signed. If that wasn't the case then Death Row would have to file it, and state in the credits that the material on the album had been licensed from Amaru Entertainment and/or that "2Pac appears courtesy of Amaru/Interscope Records". At no point in any Posthumous Death Row 2pac release was any kind of said statement made. It is a matter of Law, and because of that I can and will correct the page. If you need to know first hand, contact:

Death Row Records
PO Box 3037
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 21:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I know you are new to Wikipedia but edit wars are not permitted, until something is discussed it stays the way it originally is until it is discussed. I once made the mistake and was corrected on that. He is not still signed to Death Row Records, just because they own the rights to a few of his albums doesn't mean he is still signed to them. He is signed to Amaru Entertainment because that is the label that is releasing his new material and it is owned by the Estate of Tupac Shakur. You obviously don't know how contracts work, your not considered on a label just because you once released an album on that label. The reason Death Row is still allowed to release material is because they own the rights to that material because it was released while he was on Death Row. Look at other pages and you will realize they all have years License2Kill 22:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually I am not new to Wikipedia and the insinuation is inappropriate. And it is the other way around, you obviously do not know how contracts nor legal standings on artists material or masters work, how they pertain the artists standings on a label, Licensing recorded material to an outside party, credit recognition, or contractual obligations and protocol in general. Furthermore I would know since not only do I work in the Record Industry but for a time worked for Death Row Records itself, and now work with Smoke-A-Lot/Rap-A-Lot Records, which you probably know keeps close ties to Death Row. In that light I am very well versed in industry legal standings, protocol and in the specific issue at hand. So please do not assume on my person in the future. A good amount of other artists pages do not have years signed info, incorrect info, nor do I see where it is mandatory as a rule. If he was not still on the Death Row roster then it would have been illegal for Death Row to list him so on various official media including the official website and roster posters as was done for so many years. Nevermind filing information for city, state, and federal records and taxes. I already explained how he legally is still on Death Row, gave information on how to contact for conformation, and will continue to correct wrong information. If all that needs to be changed is the date information and not removed then that is the compromise (Even though it is redundant since he is at present time still listed on each companies roster). And again contact Death Row with above information if you feel you still need further confirmation, instead of throwing around loose insinuations like calling someone "new". Especially since I have backed up my claim with legal stature and a source of information confirmation.

UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 22:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they may own the rights to the material that was release while he was with Death Row but that doesn't mean he still is on the label. They can not release new material without clearance from Amaru, they can only release what was release while he was on Death Row because that is there material License2Kill 01:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

This is just going around in circles. I already negated each argument made and cited the lack of knowledge on the said bold statements above pertaining to contract laws. When I say he still legally is on Death Row (On paper is the simplest terms I can make it) my 3rd party perspective essentially comes from the horses mouth (I also explained that above). Your point on Pac's life is irrelevant because those songs were either not recorded on Death Row or purchased from Death Row. Because he is dead what rights the estate gets does not overturn legal status on an artist roster which is why Death Row listed him even on their official site till it was closed in 2006 (the site, not the company itself), nevermind the date that keeps being reposted as 2002. Find an official source with legal ties to his material that claims Tupac is no longer officially recognized by Death Row's roster. That is the only chance you have of solidifying your point. Anything beyond that is an attempt to keep the article a certain way regardless of fact. UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 08:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Neither of you has provided a source. Take the years out until a reliable source is located. If there is a disagreement about content, the onus is on the person wishing to include the information to source that information. KillerChihuahua^?!? 09:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

True, cannot deny that. The source would be the official Death Row site, but because of internal conflicts at the label it's reduced to a one page ad right now. So I agree, until information confirming said information is presented, the years should be taken down (as I initially took action to do). UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 11:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't the albums be sufficient sources? Better Dayz was the last album released with Death Row. License2Kill 20:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I Agree with UDStyle, I remember seeing Tupac's name on deathrowrecords.net last year. That would count as an reliable source to back up the claim that Tupac is still a Death Row artist. But like KillerChihuahua said no source was provided either user. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.4.232.124 (talk) 00:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

That doesn't mean he was still signed to Death Row, his last album that was released with Death Row was in 2002. He is not on the label anymore and they can't release any of his music. Tupac is as much on Death Row as Dr. Dre or Snoop Dogg License2Kill 01:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No, that whole argument is negated just off the existence of the Nu Mixx Klassicz, 2pac Live, and Live @ the House of Blues Albums, which technically is considered new material as remixes and live performances because they were previously unreleased. All released on Death Row after 2002. So it's safe to say they can and have released his music. And of course because he was listed at deathrowrecords.net he still has contractual ties to the label. They couldn't legally put his name on that section of the site if that wasn't true. Your claim is for lack of a better word unreasonable and is not supported by fact. Furthermore I have located an official source via Archive.org that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that 2Pac was officially listed on the Death Row artist roster past 2002. The following page is an archived copy of the artist page at the official Death Row Records website dated Jan. 5th, 2005, 3 years after the the 2002 date previously listed here: http://web.archive.org/web/20050105024743/www.deathrowrecords.net/artists.html. It can be navigated from this page clicking on the date and navigating to the artist page. Clearly 2pac is listed at the top of the artist page. Ergo, the the debate about 2002 being 2Pac's last year has run it's course. However this just disproves the 2002 point, there is currently no visual online source that proves that as of today whether 2Pac is or is not listed as an official artist on Death Row Records. Because of that, the date which cannot be proven true or false should remain off this wiki article. UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 19:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No it is not. He performed Death Row material on those albums so Death Row has the rights to use it. Is Snoop Dogg on Death Row? Is Dr. Dre? No. The reason Loyal to the Game didn't have no Death Row logo on it was because it had no Death Row material, but if you look at Pac's Life it uses material he recorded while at Death Row and has no credit given to Death Row. License2Kill 20:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Unreleased is unreleased. Remixes and live performances have no ties to original publishing and rights to master recordings of the original songs. This is considered as much new material as any other Posthumously Released alubm on paper, which is what Wikipedia gravitates towards as opposed to fan perspective. It is a separate entity. And a comparison to Dre or Snoop is irrelevant. There is no similarities to those situations. The Pac's Life material was either material sold exclusively to Amaru from Death Row, Verses and song's already released on various projects including DPG Recordz projects, or the masters taken by Daz Dillinger when he abruptly left the label in 1999. It was documented that he sold them to Afeni Shakur. But none of that matters now. It's already been proven and backed by a reliable source that he was officially listed on the Death Row artist roster long after 2002. Most importantly, all that matters as far as wikipedia is concerned is that the source given above is a source that is accepted by wikipedia standards. The only subject left in question is if it can be proven if 2pac, as of today, is or is not officially attached to Death Row Records as far as contractual ties go. The subject has moved on and until a reliable source can be found to show he is no longer on Death Row contractually, the years will stay off since Wikipedia requires that 'the onus is on the person wishing to include the information to source that information' as KillerChihuahua stated. UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 21:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Your wrong but anyway I will look for a source License2Kill 06:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Playa, I work in the Record Industry, more than that, I've worked with Death Row. I know I'm not wrong. But good luck. UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 07:05, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I think if you worked with Death Row you would know that have the rights to release live performances (even so the DVD and CD was released by Eagle Vision and had a thank you to Tupac's mother and Death Row. Pac's Life was released with material from Shakur's Death Row days but had no Death Row logo on it or any mention of Death Row in the liner notes. Due to the results of Afeni's suit against Death Row, nor Amaru Entertainment or Death Row could release Tupac's unreleased songs without working with the other. That is because Death Row still owned a small percentage of each track but because of a deal that they came to Amaru Entertainment now owns all the rights to all the unreleased tracks. Since I don't have an online source for that information is irrelevant to the situation. License2Kill 17:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

You can think that if you want, but it is true, and no, It's just that you have a fans perspective of the details and you don't totally understand how it works on a legal level. The fact that you mentioned the trial outcome is indication you don't know much on the production issues of the Pac's Life album. I'll break it down; the majority of the new songs were tracks sold to Afeni from Daz Dillinger who took the masters from the Death Row vault when he abruptly departed from the label in 1999. The others were tracks that Suge sold to Afeni but only after a period. That's why there was a delay in the Pac's Life production in 2006. Suge was considering Afeni's offer and finally gave in. Look it up. The tracks were not licensed from Death Row, they were bought. As for the statement that Death Row couldn't legally release any of Tupac's music anymore, believe me if that were so, sites like SOHH, AllHipHop, Worldwideconnected, and Streethop would be all over that story real quick. I understand you're a dedicated Tupac fan. That's cool. But the facts of the matter are against you. And all this you can find out first hand by using that contact info for Death Row I posted above. More then that it won't help the years to go back up which I know there isn't any official source that would be the key to getting them back up. And you keep saying I'm wrong, feel free to prove it as opposed to repeating yourself and not backing it up. Either way I'm done debating this for now. My point was made, the right action exercised, and I'll check in for any further info or closureUDStyle Stranded On Death Row 20:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

154 tracks were handed over to the Estate of Tupac Shakur as a result of Afeni's suit against Suge Knight. Yes I do understand it "On a legal level" and understand that your wrong. It's a well known fact that Death Row doesn't own the rights to any material but the material that was released while Tupac was on Death Row and they use to own a small percentage of the Death Row unreleased tracks License2Kill 21:57, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah the Death Row webmaster oneoone.org was posting at mrmakaveli.net forums saying the same thing udstyle was saying about Suge selling the rights to Afeni for the Pac's life album. And I read that suge and afeni both had 50% of the rights to the music from the result of the 1999 suit, but I don't remember hearing that Suge can't release pac's anymore. Source?

It's not 50%, Death Row owns a small percentage of the tracks. Death Row can't release any unreleased material because they would get sued by Amaru Entertainment. License2Kill 09:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

From what I read it was 50. Your source?

It's no where near 50%, Dina LaPolt among many.

Merge from Tupac Shakur Tattoos

Please merge any relevant content from Tupac Shakur Tattoos per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tupac Shakur Tattoos. Thanks. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-02-11 01:19Z

I have a huge question

Hi, I'm new here and i read all of Wikipedia's guidelines. That said, i had to edit the part of the first paragraph where it says "he has been ranked by fans, critics and industry insiders as the greatest rapper ever. Now granted, Shakur is definetly up there. and his greatness deserves to be mentioned in the article, but it is unfair to support this sentence with two fan polls and say "critics and industry insiders" agree. I also think that is wrong to put that greatest ever tag into an encyclopideic article because someone who reads this article and doesn't know about rap will think he's the absolute, undisputed, best rapper ever, while that is not the case.

This has been discussed before. It does not say "He is the greatest rapper". It says "He has been ranked as the greatest rapper" which is fact License2Kill 00:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok. That is a fact, but heres my issues: 1) its still wrong to use 2 fan polls and call them "industy insider and critics" 2) Michael Jordan has been ranked as the best basketball player ever, and yet it says on his article "ranked as one of the greatest players ever" and on the talk page it says saying anything about him being the best ever is POV, whether fact or not. While I understand that 2Pac has been ranked as the best ever, so have Notorious B.I.G., Jay-Z, Nas, and Rakim, and the argument of best rapper is way more contested thatn basketball, as Jordan is widely viewed by fans, indusrty insiders, and players alike. So if its POV to say Jordan has been ranked as the best ever in basketball, it DEFINETLY must be wrong to put 2Pac as the best rapper ever.

Wow thats a good analogy, the Jordan/basketball article...i remember discussing this a while back and agreeeing that it is POV to put that, and Licencse2Kill explained that it is fact that he has been ranked. But that Jordan thing is so true, and if Jordan's article can't say hes the best (and has been cited as such, w/ sources) than Tupac can't be cited as the best--MartyMart9297

Industry insiders have ranked him as the greatest, including Eminem, 50 Cent, Scarface, etc. The article does not say "He is the greatest" it says "He has been ranked as the greatest" which is true. Just because he has been ranked as the greatest doesn't mean he is the greatest. There are obviously more then two sources that say this, but that doesn't mean we need to cite every single source, we can't. "He has been ranked as the greatest ever" that is fact "He is the greatest", that isn't fact but what the article has written is fact. License2Kill 20:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Fact or not it does still smell of POV and it seems that since it's been mentioned before (I was actually part of a previous argument regarding the same thing on this page) it might be smarter to just write "one of the greatest" instead of just "the greatest" outright. I don't understand why you're fighting so hard to keep it the same way, when changing it is a good compromise (and even YOU must admit that it is more encyclopedic to say "one of the greatest" in ranks than simply declare as "the greatest" in ranks).

The statement doesn't say "Tupac is the greatest" it says "He has been ranked as the greatest" that is a fact and doesn't mean he is the greatest. It means people have ranked him as the greatest rapper, it's a well known fact that he has been RANKED as the greatest. That's fact and Wikipedia admins have agreed with me on this. License2Kill 02:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

We could remove the POV problems by inserting the ranking source into the statement. Rklawton 02:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not a POV problem at all, look at the full sentence "Many fans, critics, and industry insiders rank him as the greatest rapper ever." Nothing about that is not neutral, as he has been RANKED as the greatest rapper ever by countless sources License2Kill 02:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The "many people" bit doesn't fly and falls within the list of terms (others include "some say" or "experts agree" blah blah blah) that prompt immediate removal by any seasoned editor from articles. Just cite the source - like "XYZ magazine" rated him the #1 rapper" - etc. It's verifiable, and assuming the source satisfies WP:RS, then it's pretty much bullet proof. The full sentence reproduced above is far to POV the way it reads. Naming the source, on the other hand, takes away all that and solves the problem. Rklawton 04:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The sentence reads "Many fans, critics, and industry insiders rank him as the greatest rapper ever." because various sources have ranked him as the greatest rapper. Not just one, there is no need to list every source that has done so. The sentence is not a POV at all, read the whole sentence (not just three words), it's an undisputed fact. This has been here for months, and been discussed before and Wikipedia admins have agreed. Nowhere in the article does it say "Tupac has been deemed by Wikipedia as the greatest ever". It says He has been RANKED, that is an undisputed fact, therefore not in any way a POV License2Kill 04:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Why not include the most significant source then? "XYZ and others have ranked him #1" etc.? Then you can provide references to each of the other significant sources for this ranking. It'll remove the perception of POV and add to the statement's credibility. Or don't you have any sources? Rklawton 04:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The statement is sourced twice, we could add upwards of a hundred sources but that's not the way Wikipedia works. There is no need to do that because there are many sources that have done so and there is no reason. The only way it can be perceived as a POV is if you only look at 3 words, read the whole sentence and it is 100% fact. He has been ranked ...... That is fact and neutralLicense2Kill 05:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Everone has there own opinion, if you cant accept or respect other peoples oppinions, just deal with it

Tupac picture

Shouldn't someone change Tupac's main picture. I mean he was only 25 years old when he died and he looks like a 50 year old man in that picture. It doesn't make him look lika rapper either.

Use this pciture. This makes him look like a rapper

http://www.hitemup.com/pictures/view.php3?id=bandana01.jpg&gal=0&pg=1&count=24 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thegame455 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

The picture that is there now is a real good picture. The one you have is older License2Kill 04:29, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Besides changing the picture

This site claims Tupac is the most imitated rapper of all time according to Henry Adaso who is a hip-hop critic. http://rap.about.com/od/top10albums/ss/EssentialAlbums_2.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.225.102 (talk) 20:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

That's not fact, it's just that writers opinion. License2Kill 04:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

tupac unreleased

I thought their was a section on confirmed unreleased tupac songs. Anyways under Pac's Life it says their is an album in 2007 going to be released in the 1st quarter which I doubt since it's a month away from being over and their is nothing confirmed about it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.225.102 (talk) 17:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

No, there wasn't a confirmed list. There is just too many songs around to make a list here. The album was delayed to Fall 2007 License2Kill 18:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

unreleased songs 2

how many songs do you estimate still aren't released and where were you informed that the album was pushed back to the fall —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.225.102 (talk) 22:18, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

I don't have an exact number but there are a lot. Still well over 100, not even including the ones we don't know of. And yes, I was informed License2Kill 05:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

tupac producers

Do you know in Johnny J, LT Hutton, or Daz dillinger are producing for his next album. If Johnny J does the album it will be great. But if LT Hutton does it will suck. It also says his one nation album isn't released yet. Is that the album their going to release this year.

Tupac's influence

I realized that they're not any sources for Ja rule and the game in his legacy part. Anyways from the MTV link it states that Jay-z redid a tupac according song according to jermaine dupri and ice cube says in his part said that tupac was one of the rappers that made him switch his gear at some point in his career. So you could put Jay-z and Ice Cube as people influenced instead of ja rule and game. http://www.mtv.com/bands/h/hip_hop_week/2006/emcees/index15.jhtml

the game and Ja Rule source

The Game talks about tupac's life and how he studied his career like the SATs and he says he feels like Pac. http://www.nobodysmiling.com/hiphop/interview/86916.php

ja rule tries to copy tupac and steals his beats like hail mary and pain http://www.tupac-online.com/News/0-258475-00.html http://www.tupac-online.com/News/0-1381-00.html

Don't you think putting out a paragraph on the songs people enjoyed is irrelevant. Is that part of his style and influence. the songs like 20 people enjoyed. I could get some more information on his influence because his influence is huge

Please sign your comments. Yes, it is part of the style and influence. License2Kill 01:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Religion?

What religion was Pac? On the page about his mother Afeni it sais she converted to Islam and was a Muslim when she gave birth to him, his last name Shakur comes from Arabic and means "greatful(to God)", but he had a big tatoo with a cross on his back I think and there are pictures of him having a cross over his neck. Also he made the song "Hail Mary" but Muslims belive in Mary to she just doesn´t play that big of a roel in the religion like with Catholics.

I am just asking. Peace —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.217.95.119 (talk) 01:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

He did not have a religion, he just believed in God License2Kill 06:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that?

Yes, a Vibe Interview, I'm not looking it up because it has little relevance License2Kill 05:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a link cuz I would like to read it? Peace

he just said hes not looking it up~

2pac

What the hell happened to Tupac being ranked the greatest rapper ever next to eminem. Eminem is not on tupac's level

It was vandalism, a lot of Eminem fans on Wikipedia. License2Kill 20:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Another tupac influence

I noticed that on Pac's life it said T.I. idolized Pac. Shouldn't he be listed on the influences —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.225.102 (talk) 23:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

GOAT

I thought he was ranked as the greatest not one of the greatest

protection

how do you get full protection for tupac's article —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thegame455 (talk • contribs) 01:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

administrators

can you get the admninistrators to protect it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thegame455 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

All Eyez on Me is not the first double disc in hip hop history

In 1995 Master P produced hip hop's first double disc, 'Down South Hustlers: Bouncin' & swingin' Tha Value Pack Compilation', a year before 2pac's 'All Eyez on Me'. Though I doubt it, I'm not too sure if there were any double disc hip hop albums in between. No disrespect to the late great 2pac, just some fyi. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.8.168.197 (talk) 00:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

That was just a compilation album that wasn't even a mainstream release License2Kill 06:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Blood conetions?????

Was he a Blood? I just wonder because he allmost allways wore that same flag that the bloods. He allway had that same flag that the bloods got. So was he a blood? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.152.117.49 (talk) 16:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

No, just hung out with a lot few because of his connection with Suge Knight. License2Kill 21:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Pac allways used to frase M.O.B. Does that mean Member of Bloods?

"Money Over Bitches" License2Kill 23:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

2pac was never in a gang. I think he felt like he was repping all gangbangers tho because he wore both red and blue bandanas

Please remove from article

Please remove the following vandalism: Rumours have exposed that "Tupac Amaru Shakur" is said to be alive in Pakistan, Islamabad. Research shows that Tupac fled America in 1990 and he is currently working as a director of "lollywood" movies, and has amde hits such as "pyaar mah kiyan" "kyu hai yeh dushmaan" and the all time favourtie "America ki khani". Tupac was seen in public tiolets in Rawlpindi and is serving 8 years in Prison for vicousl assaulting and raping a 24years old women, killing two police officers, and promoting hatred , racial and vilence between Pakistan and Indian in 2001. Tupac is set to make his hollywood release and enter the rap game in 2010.

In fact, rumours have exposed that "Tupac Amaru Shakur" is said to have died on September 13, 1996, at 4:03 PM PDT at the age of 25 owing to complications arising from a shooting. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.96.102.152 (talk) 19:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome.

RfC

Forgive me if I mess up at all, but this is (surprisingly) the first RfC I have ever filed. Let me start from the beginning: A number of users (but notably License2Kill and I) have had a debate about Tupac's birth name (see #Tupac's birth name and #Tupac's birth name, part II) for a while now. I have heard the claim that his birth name is Lesane Parish Crooks before, but mostly from people who have read it from Wikipedia. In lieu of a verifiable source, I feel that we cannot put this claim on the page. I tried putting in a {{dubious}} tag, but License2Kill disagreed with me, removed it, and cited Tupac Shakur Legacy, page 9 as his source, stating that it is an official, family-sanctioned biography. I stated that the official site, and many other, more official biographies said nothing about it, despite about 7 websites (none particularly reliable) saying this was his name. We argued back and forth for a bit, but nothing was really accomplished. I have been trying to get the article to featured quality (and worked with the Hip Hop Collaboration to get it up to that level), so I added "*Clarify Lesane Parish Crooks misconception." [4] on May 14, proposing that we mention the fact that there was no definitive source stating that his birth name was Crooks. I eventually got tired of arguing over what I considered a small detail and forgot about the page, took a wikibreak, and resumed a normal life. A couple days ago, I un-semi'd the article (it'd been protected since Halloween, only to be reprotected the next day due to vandalism), and removed the bit about Crooks [5]. License2Kill reverted my change, and here we are. I have no problem mentioning the dispute in the article, I just don't feel that this should be stated as fact as it disagrees with his official biography, and we have no other sources. -Mysekurity 06:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I've been doing a little digging, and I found a book, Tupac: Resurrection that has his actual birth certificate (ironically, on page 9), which clearly shows "Tupac Amaru Shakur" as his birth name. Unless Afeni committed fraud against the City of New York, I would trust the birth certificate. Case closed. -Mysekurity 06:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

There is no discussion about it. It seems like you think you are his #1 fan or something. Read the latest official book. There is a whole paragraph on it. End of discussion License2Kill 16:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If his birth name was PLC, wouldn't there be a birth certificate to reflect this? Or some form of primary document proof? I've been searching, but I haven't found any... -Mysekurity 23:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Read the book. It is an official book released by the Estate of Tupac Shakur and was over scene by his mother, end of story. There is a whole paragraph in the book about how his mother wrote that name on the birth certificate because his mother was fearing that someone would harm him because of the relation to her. His name was changed a year later. If you really think your a fan go buy the book License2Kill 00:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment from Flex

I saw your RfC and am here to comment. I don't have access to any of the books you are referencing, so I will depend on you to give me accurate quotations. License2Kill, please supply a quote from "the latest official book" (what's the name of it?) with sufficient context to prove your point. Do you dispute that the birth certificate that appears in Mysekurity's book is authentic? If so, on what basis? Mysekurity do likewise: once L2K supplies a quote, please comment on its authenticity and reliability. --Flex (talk|contribs) 20:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't have access to the books either, but I used Amazon's "search inside the book" feature for the book Tupac: Resurrection [6]. It is an officially sanctioned Amaru Entertainment book, and even includes a note from Afeni in the back (quoted in a review: "Amaru's own Ms. Karolyn Ali [the author] went searching for publishers who would not distort our vision for this project.") On page 9 there is a picture of Tupac's birth certificate on the left, and a baby picture on the right (Click the right side until you get to page 9.) It is clearly evident that the birth certificate says "Tupac Amaru Shakur" for the name (zoom in for finer detail), and is stamped with the seal of New York. I have not read Tupac Shakur Legacy, nor does Amazon have search available for it, so I can't dispute what it says without seeing for myself. An interesting aside: both books are published by Atria, but I see no connection of TSL with Amaru Entertainment (what's also funny is that both L2K and I cite the book on page 9.) I just want to say that I don't doubt that PLC could be his name, but I think it's surprising that no other official biography mentions this. -Mysekurity 23:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

That is because that is a copy of a reissued birth certificate. Go read Tupac Shakur Legacy. Which is an official book released by the Estate of Tupac Shakur and Afeni Shakur. This is confirmed in an official book. This page does not have to leave out facts due to someone's ignorance, just because you haven't scene it doesn't mean it's not true. Go to any bookstore and buy it. License2Kill 00:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Mysekurity, I see the page you mean, but L2K seems to have reason to believe that that is not the original certificate (indeed, the certificate appears to say "Date issued: 06-04-90" on the second line beneath the SSN -- it's a bit hard to read). L2K, please quote Tupac Shakur Legacy -- along with sufficient context -- to prove your case. We need a direct, verifiable statement here; circumstantial evidence is insufficient. --Flex (talk|contribs) 01:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the major piece of evidence here is the birth certificate. According to this site, a corrected birth certificate in New York City "will list the new name but will not have a listing for sex at all. That section is simply omitted." Zooming in on the image of the birth certificate clearly shows a "sex" field right below "name". And "male" right below "Tupac Amaru Shakur". I may be completely off base on this, and if so, I apologize. I just feel that it should be investigated, and not taken at face value. Besides, the top results for "Parish Lesane Crooks" on Google are all for "Lesane Parish Crooks" (and none of them are particularly reliable sources). While we shouldn't leave out facts due to ignorance, we shouldn't ignorantly include incorrect facts either. -Mysekurity 01:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

That is just a birth certificate. Go buy the book, what don't you get about that? It is right in there as I sourced it. There is no reason for this discussion. I repeat, it is in an official book. End of story. His own family knows better then you, that is why they decided to make this book. I don't see what you don't get about this, it is published in an official book. There is no discussion about it, I have sourced it correctly. Get over it. License2Kill 03:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe I'm treating you very respectfully, and I'd appreciate if you did the same. The book is not official. It is with "cooperation" from his family, which is not the same thing as an official biography. As I've said a number of times, I haven't read the book, so I may be completely mistaken. Will you do me the favor of sending me a scan of the page? Or a camera photograph, to my e-mail address (my username @gmail). I'd very much like to resolve this civily and efficiently. Thanks! -Mysekurity 05:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

L2K, neither of us has the book, and I don't plan on buying it (I'm only here because of the RfC, you'll recall). Please post the paragraph you've made reference to or scan the page(s) and email them. The facts are not (yet) as clear to us as you make them out to be, and this debate will not be resolved by you simply asserting that the book agrees with you. We need the exact text. --Flex (talk|contribs) 12:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The book is there, your ignorance to the fact is no excuse (I'm sorry if that sounds offensive but there is no other word to use). You can go to your book store, open it up and the to page 9. And yes, the book is official just like Tupac: Resurrection was. The introduction was written by Afeni Shakur and the author is a former Black Panther who wrote it with his aunt and cousin. It is official, no debate about it. The fact is verified and has been sourced, this discussion is over. I cited the book, I cited the page. There is no discussion about it, not every fact from a book has to be run through you. Your argument is based on nothing at all, just the fact that you haven't read an OFFICIAL BOOK. We don't have to wait for you to see the book, it's there and your ignorance is no excuse (once again, not using the word as an insult). The book isn't photocopyable, it is bulky because of all the pullouts. Tupac Shakur Legacy License2Kill 23:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

His official biography on his website makes no mention of Lesane Parish or Parish Lesane Crooks. The burden of proof is therefore on you to provide a verifiable source that his birth name is anything different than what it says on his official biography or birth certificate. Amazon says the book's 64 pages fill 10" by 11" and weigh 2 lbs. This shouldn't be too difficult to copy, no? If the pullouts are an issue, please remove them, or deal with them as best you can.

Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. I provided references which you could check, and performed research in an attempt to disprove my argument (as any scientist should do). I cannot take your side of the argument at face value simply because you say it is true. It seems this pattern of disruptive edits and general incivility is nothing new for you. Continuing in this manner will lead to a block. -Mysekurity 07:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

L2K, please read WP:CIVIL. All we're asking you to do is supply the relevant paragraph. I admit you aren't required to by the policies of the Wikipedia, but as a courtesy to your fellow editors, I don't think it is too much to ask. --Flex (talk|contribs) 12:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• I have provided 6 sources saying it is LPC. 4 of them were found using lexis nexis and proquest and are from very reliabled, published sources (sac bee, seattle times, 1 magazine, 1 journal). Between these and the death certificate I would say there is enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt his birth name was Lesane Parish Crooks. —Ocatecir ^Talk 00:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

1. ^ Baltake, Joe. "Tupac taps into cultural marvel", Sacramento Bee, November 14, 2003, p. TK26. Retrieved on March 19, 2007.
2. ^ Louie, Rebecca. "[[1] Rapper's legacy lives on in 'Resurrection' Film tells Tupac's story, in his own words]", Seattle Times, November 12, 2003, p. F3. Retrieved on March 19, 2007.
3. ^ Thompson, Ericka. "Remembering hip-hop's most influential", Recorder, pp. A1. Retrieved on March 19, 2007.
4. ^ Call & Post. "Tupac: Resurrection' explores myths surrounding rap icon", Cincinnati, Ohio: Nov 19, 2003. Vol. 87, Iss. 46; pg. 2B
5. ^ http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000637/bio
6. ^ http://www.nndb.com/people/548/000024476/ —Ocatecir ^Talk 00:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll do my part in trying to find the book, but I think for now, we should leave it as the Sacramento Bee has it—rumored. The birth certificate (which I believe to be accurate based on the name change link I provided above). None of the other sources seem to be very notable, and I've seen LPC a lot more than PLC. -Mysekurity 03:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The Seattle Times isn't reputable? The first 4 were articles found over lexis nexis, I don't think you get anymore reputable than that (and only the Sacramento Bee said rumored, the rest stated it as a matter of fact). —Ocatecir ^Talk 04:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

After reviewing the screenshots, I believe it's safe to put in Lesane Parish Crooks as a non-officially-confirmed birth name using some (not all) of Ocatecir's sources. -Mysekurity 00:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Tupac's Birth Name (Report Of Investigation)

I think we should at least metion his birthname as it's written in the "Report Of Investigation" of his death - Report Of Investigation in the middle towards the end of the first line you can clearly see "AKA Lesane Parish Crooks". 7upac 12:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

See the previous section of this talk page for more discussion of this. --Flex (talk|contribs) 16:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. Other sites seem to have this same coroner's report, with the AKA on it as well. Has this been authenticated? Maybe we should put LPC in as an alias? (it says AKA, not birth name). Good find. -Mysekurity 21:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be a good compromise until it can be confirmed as his birth name. --Flex (talk|contribs) 22:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me. I'll ask L2K -Mysekurity 01:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

It's amazing how we come back full circle :) I posted this same info may moons ago, but didn't get a positive response on it. At the time, in addition to the coroner's report, I also had a copy of the LVPD police report of the incident which lists "AKA LPC" as well. I had suggested listing it as an AKA in the article, but some people want to list it as birth name and that's that. Ah well, hope you have better luck than I did with all that.SqlPac 03:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It should be included as birth name, not alias because he never went by that and that may be confusing. His mother just put "Paris Lesane Crooks" on the birth certificate because she was in fear of someone hurting her child because of the relationship to her License2Kill 02:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for discussing this. I do want to say, however, that the coroner's report says that it's an "AKA" (which the field says on the page), plus I haven't heard "Parish Lesane" from anywhere but you. Previously on the article, it said "Lesane Parish", as do the overwhelming majority of Google results. Googling "Parish Lesane Crooks" returns the Tupac wiki article (followed by the RfC) as the top results. #3 is a quiz which lists "Lesane Parish Crooks" as his birth name. I see that the "Lesane Parish Crooks" name floats around a lot of trivia sites, but the reason I'm hesitant to leave it in the article is that we have no confirmation from something like the New York Times or other reputable publication. -Mysekurity 03:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Another thing: you talked about if it is he's birth name or just an alias. As i read here 2Pac's Name Tupac's mom (birth name: Alice Faye Walker) called him Parish Lesane Crooks not because she didn't to know he is her son, in fact in that time her last name wasn't Shakur, she changed her last name to Shakur when she married Mutulu Shakur. And after the marriage she changed in 1972 tupac's name also to Tupac Amaru Shakur after a famous inca. 7upac 12:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but the official source says Paris Lesane Crooks, I can't see how you don't understand that his family would know his name better then a few Google results. How are you going to talk about "Other reputable publication", when this fact is coming from an official book. Get it through your head, OFFICIAL. None of the Google results are from reputable sources, we went over this all months ago. When I added this FACT I ran it through an admin who agreed with it. License2Kill 03:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

WHY ARE SUM PPL SO DUM ITS IN THE LEGACY BOOK PARISH LESANE CROOKS! ITS AN OFFICAL BOOK! GO BUY THE BOOK! FUK SAKE. AND WTF U IDIOTS SAYING SUM SHIT WHO WOULD KNOW BETTER THAN HIS FAMILY ITS LIKE UR SAYING 2PACS FAMILY IS NOT RIGHT! GOOGLE IS! SERIOUSLY LISTEN TO URSELF U SOUND FUCKING RETARTED — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.210.168.20 (talk • contribs)

^ Thank you License2Kill 01:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

also the back of the legacy book it says produced under license from back and mayer! and Amaru Entertainment, Inc. hence the book being an OFFICAL Book! case closed -- Supreme euphanasia 17:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

WHY HAS IT BEEN CHANGED ON THE MAIN ARTICLE AS LESANE PARISH CROOKS, THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED AND CONFIRMED THAT IS PARISH LESANE CROOKS! HOW THICK ARE SUM PPL SERIOUSLY THEY MUST HAVE A BRICK FOR A HEAD CAUSE IS NO ONE GETTING THROUGH ITS PARISH LESANE CROOKS AND ITS UNFORTUNATE THAT SUM PPL ARE IGNORNAT DO THEY UNDERTSAND AFENI SHAKUR! OVERVIEWED THE BOOK ITS REALSED FROM AMARU ENTERTAINMENT IT SAYS PARISH LESANE CROOKS! NOW CAN SUMONE CHANGE IT THE WAY IT SHOULD BE ON THE MAIN ARTICLE! (ps. in no way is this directed to any particular person, this is not a personal attack on any fellow wiki editiors thank you.) -- Supreme euphanasia 06:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Despite your protestations to the contrary, calling "SUM PPL" involved in this discussion "IGNORNAT" is at best uncivil and at worst a personal attack and in either case is unacceptable (see WP:TPG#Behavior_that_is_unacceptable). Please observe the rules of wikiquette here. Also, please don't type in all caps (see WP:TPG#Good_practice). --Flex (talk|contribs) 13:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll will be hopefully scanning the page tomorrow from the official book and posting the link to put this confusion (parish lesane vs lesane parish) to rest! -- Supreme euphanasia 11:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

There seem to be a lot of meatpuppets here. Let's make sure we're truly attempting to make the article better and more reliable, not just fix things we don't like. Also, please keep civil, and cool. -Mysekurity 04:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

What do people object to about "allegedly"? There's nothing weasel about it. Newspapers use it all the time when something isn't proven. -Mysekurity 13:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

man i couldnt scan the page ill see if i can get sumone to do it damn! lol -- Supreme euphanasia 22:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

On his IMDB bio it says his birth name is Lesane Parish Crooks.--Peterm1991 11:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

^ That's based on false internet rumor. This is all irrelevant, Tupac's family says Parish Lesane Crooks, that's final. It's not "Allegedly" because it's confirmed in a book. It's his name. License2Kill 17:00, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

This report proves that his birthname was Lesane Parish Crooks. [7] --Prisonbreak12345 14:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The external link works fine. There is no need to re-upload the picture to Wikipedia. That said, we have no verification that that is authentic, nor does it state that the "AKA" is his birth name. I had offered to include it as an AKA, but L2K was less than thrilled. That said, is anyone else bothered by the fact that there are a bunch of brand new users coming to this page to weigh in first? Socks? Meat? -Mysekurity 07:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

article question

Why did you put Tupac's legal controversy in the intro and put it down again in legal issues. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.225.102 (talk) 18:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

tupac clothing line

tupac has an official cloting line called MAKAVELI BRANDED, made by Afeni Shakur

offical site myspace site —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peterm1991 (talk • contribs) 20:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

yeah they are already in the External links of the main article. -- Supreme euphanasia 05:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Makaveli Branded Clothing was founded by his mother (Afeni Shakur), 7 years after the death of his son Tupac. The brand went to retailers nationally November 2003.it should be HER son some one fix this error thanx -- Supreme euphanasia 17:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Why Do They Not KEEP 2Pac's album sales up to date?

THE last accurate numbers were coleccted back in 1998, when will we ever know how much he has sold to this day? Is the RIAA still counting his album sales or will we never know for the rest of eternity how many records he has sold?

sign ur posts, its because afeni is a tight ass riaa doesnt update after a certian amount and the label has to pay for it i think -- Supreme euphanasia 22:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/2pactupac/ -- 121.210.168.37 11:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Why the need for all there merges

u ever heard the saying "if it aint broke dont fix it" -- Supreme euphanasia 22:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

sections to add to this artile

i think we should make a section about his family and another section about his Endorsements and projects as in 50 Cents article

• Non-Stop Productions
• Joshua's Dream Corporation
• Thug Nation
• 24/7 Productions
• Out Da Gutta Records
• Amaru Entertainment

--Peterm1991 10:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

very useful links

• http://www.thugz-network.com/Tupac~Shakur~Facts.php
• http://www.donkilluminati.com/alivetheories.htm

--Peterm1991 10:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Books

Is it true that pac used to read books in prison?

Sign your posts. Yes it's true, why is it so unbelievable? He claimed to have done some of his best reading in jail. -Phoenix 18:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Ya tupac read books in prison he was a very big reader believe it or not he was a very educated person -west coast Ridaz$$

Should we update Tupac's wprldwide sales by .5?

Since pac's life went gold shouldnt we add to the intro and say that he has sold 73 or 74 million and then add the .5 since pac's life has went gold worldwide? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.244.187.37 (talk) 19:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

Tupac's Daughter

How come there's no mention of Pac's daughter in the article? Son of Kong

wasnt a big part of his life

West coast Ridaz$$ 23:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)West coast Ridaz$$

Tupac in popular culture

Anyone considered a tupac in popular culture section? He's probably the rapper most alluded to in music, movies and stand-up comedy.

That seems right to me. Skillz187 04:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

2pac white people?

What did 2pac thougth about white people?--91.152.117.187 22:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Probably what every other thug of the early '90s thought. Draw your own conclusions. -Phoenix 23:30, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

2pac had no prob wit whities he went to a school wit whites everywhere

-west coast Ridaz$$

Watch Resurrection. He states that half his fans are white and that he appreciates that as they will give 'his people' jobs in the future. ORBJ 06:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Worldwide Album Sales

All Eyez On Me 16 Million? Until The End Of Time 8.9 Million? Greatest Hits 15 Million?

Are THESE CONFIRMED......Never heard such worldwide figures....Needs a Source otherwise I will delete these figures

Tupac's 2007 album

Can sum1 post info on pac's next album. It should be out soon if it was planned for the first quarter of 2007 that laready past.

Bloods?

wel first fuck your bitch and the click you claim! You all dont know shit about Pac. Me and him are homies from way back. As a matter of fact 2Pac is actually from New Zealand, Wellington. And is actually proven in the gang investorgator that biggy and 2pac were having a jelly wrestle!

PEACE*

damn

Why won't anyone reply for my 2007 album question and why did they put a 2008 album if they don't even know about a 2007 album.

Peter Travers' Review

I challenge the following sentence from the article: 'His first starring role was in the 1992 movie Juice as Bishop, a trigger happy teen, for which he was hailed by Rolling Stone's Peter Travers as "the film's most magnetic figure."'

Travers' review does not say that. You should fix it. SqlPac 04:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Jada Pinkett

I challenge the following from the article: 'In the documentary Tupac: Resurrection, Shakur says, "Jada is my heart. She will be my friend for my whole life," and Smith calls Shakur "one of my best friends. He was like a brother. It was beyond friendship for us. The type of relationship we had, you only get that once in a lifetime." A poem written by Shakur titled "Jada" appears in his book, The Rose That Grew From Concrete, which also includes a poem dedicated to Smith called "The Tears in Cupid's Eyes".'

It does not add any value, it is trivia, and should be removed. SqlPac 04:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe its there to back up the preceding statement that he was close friends with jada pinkett

Numbers

I challenge the following from the article: "After serving 11 months of his sentence, ..." According to the Manual of Style (Dates and Numbers), "11" should be spelled out as a word. SqlPac 04:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Commas

I challenge the following from the article: 'His second album, Strictly 4 My N.I.G.G.A.Z., was released in 1993. Heavily produced by Stretch and the Live Squad, the album generated two hits, "Keep Ya Head Up" and "I Get Around", , the latter featuring guest appearances by members of the Digital Underground.'

The second comma after "I Get Around" is superfluous and should be removed. SqlPac 04:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I Get Around trivia

I challenge the following from the article: "It was originally going to be a Digital Underground track but instead Shock G gave it to Shakur."

It is trivia and does not add value to the article. SqlPac 04:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Name Pronunciation

Considering this article is being published in over 30 languages, you might consider adding the IPA pronunciation of Tupac's name to the article. SqlPac 04:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Wfy

There are over a dozen links that should be considered just in the intro. If you're going to link "cardiac arrest", for instance, then what's the justification for not linking "respiratory failure"? And how many people who aren't in the music business and don't frequent concerts know what a "roadie" is? I counted almost 30 new links that could be added just to the intro, although the list could be narrowed down a bit for some of the more common words (assuming "racial equality", "drug abuse", "alcohol abuse", and others are eliminated as being well-known enough outside of the U.S. to merit leaving them unlinked). Enjoy. SqlPac 04:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Book Trivia

I challenge the following from the article: "Steinberg has kept copies of the books that Tupac read, which include J.D. Salinger's Catcher in the Rye, Jamaica Kincaid's At the Bottom of the River, Herman Melville's Moby Dick, Eileen Southern's Music of Black Americans, and the feminist writings of Alice Walker and Robin Morgan. Most of these books were read before the age of 20."

This does not add any value to the article, it is trivia, and should be removed.

I have over a hundred more of these, and I'll feed them to you slowly once I see that these are properly handled. SqlPac 04:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

best rapper ever?

Hi, im new here and i was wondering if it is fair to put "has been ranked as best rapper ever" while so many other have been too.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Darth Caton (talk • contribs) 17:17, May 7, 2007 (UTC)

Please sign your posts with four tildes ~~~~. The actual quote is "Many fans, critics, and industry insiders rank him as the greatest rapper ever." It is verified, per Wikipedia's policy of Verifiability. The sheer number of fans, critics, and industry insiders who have ranked him the greatest makes it extremely hard to refute this fact. Being ranked #1 in a single poll (a la Jay-Z) is a fluke. Being ranked #1 twice could be considered an anomaly. Being ranked #1 in dozens of polls, and having a multitude of your critics, peers, other professionals in your industry, and even renowned academics go on the record to state that you are #1 turns it into a verifiable assertion. BTW, the Wikipedia policy on "Fairness" can be found at Everyone Gets a Trophy. SqlPac 01:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, it does not say he is the greatest. It says he has been ranked as the greatest, which is a fact License2Kill 04:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

First of all, those two citations were both fan polls, so idk where u got the idea that that covers for "industry insiders and critics" second, renowed academnics dont say he's #1. Third, People like Jay-Z, Notorious BIG, Rakim, Nas are also commonly refered to as the greatest by industy insiders and fans. Look at the Source from Feb 2007. Look at the XXL from April 2007. Look at the March 2007 Blender. Look at the All the above say Notorious B.I.G. is the greatest. Im reading the post and i see this has been discussed before, but it kinda bothers me that the Tupac article has people like you who dedicate their lives to making this guy look so high and mighty.

Take credit for the stuff you're posting. In re: "industry insiders and critics", it was reported by Newsweek after Shakur's shooting that "that hip-hop had lost the most articulate voice of intelligent black male anger". In re: "renowned academics", as stated in the article, several renowned academics wrote dozens of papers after Shakur's death, which were presented at the Harvard Conference. Many of these academics went on the record stating that Shakur was the best, the most influential, had the greatest cultural impact, etc. Perhaps Yale will hold a "Jay-Z" Conference to refute these findings at some point. As for B.I.G., he was good; however, 2 albums do not a lifetime of achievement make. SqlPac 22:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, i have seen these articles. But I do believe you are getting "greatness" confused with "influence". While I agree that having papers written about him at perstigoues schools is something else, look at what Jay-Z has done. Dude has had lunch with the f*cking United Nations. And B.I.G., he did in 2 albums (and barely any posthomous releases) what 2Pac took 7 albums (and tons of sh't from his after death) to do. B.I.G. may not have had Yale and Harvard (two predominatly white schools) talk about him, but just about every HIP-HOP publication (you know, those guys who are actually involved in the industy) say he's the greatest. There are scholars also write articles on Eminiem, does that make him #2 or perhaps #1? I believe the line in the intro should be changed as ONE of the greatest and add most influental. Any wikipedia administrators agree?

Feel free to sign your posts; i.e., put your name behind your words. At the Harvard Conference the African-American scholarship was very well represented. Several of the Ph.D.'s in attendance and giving presentations were African-American. So I'm not sure exactly what road you're headed down by pointing out that their student bodies are "predominantly white". Perhaps you can explain how having a "predominantly white" student body detracts from the prestige associated with a school? Or from an academic conference held there, at which the African-American academic community was better represented than most academic conferences held anywhere else in this country in the past 200 years. What did B.I.G. do in two albums exactly? As for Jay-Z having lunch with the United Nations, he's in good company: Fidel Castro had lunch at the United Nations as well. A list of a man's dining partners don't generally excite people outside a general circle of Yes-Men. Shakur's influence can be found in Jay-Z's "rip-off" of Shakur's song, "My Girlfriend"; which was somehow miraculously converted into a second-rate "love song" about how his girlfriend disses him for "Sex and the City" re-runs. Eminem repeatedly lists Shakur as one of his biggest influences; and he has even stated in some of his songs that Shakur is "the great one". Sounds like Eminem would agree. Here's some more verification for you:

• Content Producer and professional journalist Eric William stated that Shakur is the "Greatest Male Rapper of All Time" (B.I.G. made #3 right behind Rakim, and Jay-Z slithered in at #4). [[8]]
• About Rap/Hip-Hop ran a poll in which Shakur ran away with a double-digit lead over all the competition, including Jay-Z (#4) and B.I.G. (#5) [[9]]
• Vibe magazine, one of those HIP HOP publications (you know, those guys who are actually involved in the industy), ran a poll in which fans voted Shakur #1 and B.I.G. #2. Jay-Z came in at #3, ahead of Nas and Rakim (go figure). [[10]]

There are dozens of polls and articles that repeat these same facts, making them verifiable. Most of the polls I've seen indicate that Jay-Z falls in at #1 only on the "Greatest Rapper Alive". The key word being "Alive", and that is easily disputable since Rakim and Nas are still breathing. Bottom line is it is a verifiable fact. Instead of coming over here and trying to get someone to agree with you that a verifiable fact should be changed on the Tupac Shakur article, maybe your time would be better spent improving and verifying your assertions that Jay-Z is the greatest of all time (and not just the "Greatest Alive"), or that B.I.G. is the greatest of all time in their articles. SqlPac 03:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

"...look at what Jay-Z has done. Dude has had lunch with the f*cking United Nations." My friend is dating a girl who works as an administrative assistant at the f*cking United Nations. After I showed him this discussion, he called her, and she's invited us to have lunch at the f*cking United Nations. So around 1 PM EST tomorrow, I will have had lunch with the "f*cking United Nations", making me "The Greatest". So will my friend. And of course, his girlfriend is apparently already well beyond "The Greatest" by your criteria, since she eats lunch with the f*cking United Nations just about every single day. Cheap publicity stunts are not the best measure of greatness; unless you're trying for a P.T. Barnum Award, of course. SqlPac 14:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, you make good points. But once again: In September 2003 issue XXL Mag asked 25 RAPPERS who their top 5 MC's were. B.I.G. was on 13 of the 25 lists while 2Pac only on 8. That ties with Eminem for 4th behing Rakim (11) and, you guessed it, Jay-Z (10).

Once again, you prove my point about the casual fan and their polls. They ranked Dr Dre on the Top 10 in one of those polls I believe the 22 Best MC's poll, and he dont even write his own rhymes.

Dre is not even an issue here. As I said, statistical flukes happen all the time. But what happens is, in the long run, statistical anomalies even themselves out (that's why you can win a few bets in a Casino but you end up losing it all by the end of the night.) One poll might rank Dre #1 for all I know, but you're probably not going to see dozens of polls ranking him #1. Just like there probably aren't dozens of polls of sober people (whose paychecks aren't signed by Jay-Z) that rank him above Tupac. SqlPac 03:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I do apologize for singling out white people at Harvard and their Professors. While many of these guys were black, Harvard and other prestigous schools has also had press confrences about terrorist leader Osama Bin Laden, and dictators Saddam Hussein, Benito Mussolini and Hitler. So much for good company, eh?

I was just wondering where the white thing was going. Didn't seem relevant, considering the representation and makeup of the Harvard Conference. There is a difference between a "press conference" and an "academic conference" with panelists who are presenting papers discussing the impact that one person has made on an industry and an entire culture. You and I could call the local papers and hold our own "press conference" tomorrow. If we called enough people and made it sound good enough, we might even get someone to show up. SqlPac 03:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

What did B.I.G. accomplish in two albums? Hmm lets see. He brought East Coast Hip-hop back into focus, at a time when G-Funk and West Coast music ruled. He made a critically acclaimed debut album that still is ranked in most peoples top 10 albums ever. He was the only person to hold the title "King of New York" and have no disputes, and unlike 2Pac, was acclaimed as the best when he was ALIVE. Moving along, he withstood a barrage of diss records by 'Pac to still be hugely popular around the world. His second, double album was just as critically acclaimed as the first and it went on to outsell 2Pac's double album. Don't give me that crap about how All Eyez On Me's sales haven't been updated since '98, cuz Life After Death hasnt been updated since 2000. There are Biggie fans all over the world (just like 'Pac), and his murder was high profile enough to re-open a crooked cop scandal in the second largest major city in America. Biggie's two albums have also supplied rhymes that get bitten constantly by too many rappers too name here. Again,it is true people steal 2Pac's SONGS, meaning he can write good songs, (so can Nelly and Chingy and Lil Jon) but they steal Biggies RHYMES, more than ANYBODy in rap history. The best RAPPER is B.I.G. Nuff said.

While bringing East Coast Hip-hop back from the brink of extinction is admirable, one could also say that Eminem brought Midwest rap back from the brink of non-existence. B.I.G. deal. It makes you wonder why so many rappers in New York couldn't get their stuff together to begin with, that they even needed a "savior". But that's neither here nor there. And "re-open a crooked cop scandal"? Hell, Pac shot two cops; unlike most rappers who likes to talk the talk but never fired so much as a watergun outside of a studio. As for your assertion that B.I.G. is the best RAPPER, source it and add it to the B.I.G. article. You're really going to have a hard time convincing anyone here to change a verifiable fact. SqlPac 03:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

And how dare you try to say Jay-Z at the UN is a publicity stunt, and in the very same breath try to defend the king of publicity stunts. Was going to any reporter who listened and telling them that Biggie had him shot (which is a snitch move by the way) not a stunt? Or how about making songs with disputable claims of having sex with ones wife? Spitting in a TV camera? Screaming Westside every chance you get (when u lived in L.A. for 4 years?<----Darth Caton

Pac said that biggie and puffy knew about the shooting. He didn"t say that they shot him. He said that they were involve. Snitch is someone who works for the cops. Did pac work for cops or was biggie and puffy ever charged with murder atempt? NO!!! So pac was no snitch!

"On November 30, 1994 there friendship would change forever when Tupac was shot 5 times in the lobby of the Quad Recording Studios in Manhattan with his manager (who was also shot once by a stray bullet), Stretch (of the Live Squad), and his siters boyfriend. Meanwhile Bad Boy aritst Biggie, Puffy, New York record executive Andre Harrell, and Biggie's group the Junior M.A.F.I.A. were upstairs recording. After Tupac was shot he went upstairs to have an ambulance called and to have someone call his mother. No one in the studio would look at or help Tupac even though he had been shot. Tupac found that Biggie and Puffy knew about the shooting and had not warned him. Biggie was hanging with the people who shot Tupac a week before .In the eyes of Tupac Biggie was fake he was not a playa by no means and he was not the King of New York (especially if he didn't know what was going down in his own city). On Biggie's first album he talked about being a high roller when in reality he was broke while creating the album and was speaking of Tupac's lifestyle."

http://www.donkilluminati.com/disputes.htm

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-beoIhQ9exU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKtnGR9uPEw

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ccD5FLqSqjI&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xDkxfHUnsc

I had a nice lunch over at the U.N. today, so in that regard I suppose I'm now as good a rapper as Jay-Z. It doesn't feel much different from yesterday though. What was the point of Jay-Z's visit to the U.N. exactly? Was he trying to "Hard-Knock Life" the Palestinians and Israelis into a peace agreement? C'mon, it was a publicity stunt, pure and simple. I will definitely give him credit for being able to promote the hell out of himself. But self-promotion is not what makes a great rapper. Even one who declared himself the "Savior of East Coast Hip-Hop" in the past (which you obviously disagree with, since you feel that B.I.G. was the "Savior of East Coast Hip-Hop"). Hell I'm just annoyed that East Coast Hip-Hop fell into such a disorganized mess that it needed a "savior". Personally I would love to talk to you about Jay-Z all day long, I got nothing nice to say about him; but he's not the central issue here. The issue, AFAIK, is whether the assertions made in this article are verifiable as far as Wikipedia's policies are concerned. I think it's been shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are verifiable. I think the best course of action, if you disagree, is to verify your assertions about B.I.G. and Jay-Z (and whomever else you would like to) and add those statements to their articles with appropriate sources. I think the "industry insider" who hosted the MTV2 show that is used as a source here (the one with the "fan poll" that pronounced Shakur the #1 emcee) said it best: "When you ask who's the #1 MC, you could say Tupac or Biggie, and you'd be right." Unfortunately he didn't include Jay-Z in his list, but I personally don't even believe Jay-Z is an issue here. I don't believe he's in the same league as either B.I.G. or Tupac (or even Rakim or Nas) personally, but that's just my opinion and not necessarily a verifiable fact. SqlPac 03:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Damn, did Jay-Z do something to you personally? Anyway, i don't feel the need to put "ranked as best ever" in Jay-Z or Biggies article (although someones has put it in the Jay-Z article already) because it's reeks too much of POV, which Wikipedia is against. Hell, Michael Jordan's article doens't even say he's the best basketball player, and the list of sources (fans, athletes, GM's etc.) would last a whole article. BTW, Jay-Z went to the UN to help provide water for the starving African kids over there, and he didnt just have lunch with the U.N. He was in a meeting with world leaders Kofi Annan, and President of South Africa Thabo Mbeki trying to help people over there. Publicity sturnt or not, you must tip your hat to the man.

Jay-Z never did nothing to me or for me personally. Like I said, my personal opinion is that Jay-Z never has been on the same level as many other rappers concerning his rap skills. However, I tip my hat to his marketing skills. As far as his UN visit, I call it a simple publicity stunt. Not for nothing, but he could have just as easily taken some of his millions and dotted the African skyline with water towers, without seeking out high-profile meetings with Kofi Annan and other politicians. How many Africans got a bottle of water out of that meeting? Now that the photo op is over, how much time does he spend telling his fans to take that $20 they're going to spend on Jay-Z CD's, clothes, or crackpipes and donate it to the African Water Crisis campaign instead? But anyway, my personal feelings aside, the point is that this article isn't about Jay-Z and Jay-Z really doesn't have any bearing on the conversation as far as I'm concerned. You make some good points about B.I.G., however, which I would think are much more relevant to the conversation. "King of New York" though? C'mon, that's right up there with "Admiral of the Nebraska Navy" :)

Poor flow

Hi. The second paragraph has unexplained gaps. It describes Shakur being robbed and shot, and how that sparked the East/West rivalry, then jumps to him being released from prison, with no mention of how or why he was incarcerated. This should be cleaned up and the gaps filled in. --Segaba 14:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It was fixed. Then reverted. Then fixed again. Then reverted again. Give it your best shot. SqlPac 14:50, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I saw that too. I might look into it today or tomorrow myself. Tayquan ^holla_{My work} 19:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I was about to start a topic about this on the talk, but it looks like you beat me to it. The lead is horrible, it doesn't summarize the rest of the article, his life or who he was properly, nor is it properly wikified. ♠ SG →Talk 04:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

See above comments. I counted over 30 items that could be wikified in the intro alone. Much of this has already been done a couple of times, including a rewrite of the intro. See history for more info. SqlPac 14:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Review

This article has been brought to WP:GA/R for review and possible delisting of its Good Article status. Listed below are the reasons submitted to WP:GA/R for delisting.

Nomination for delisting: I believe the article does not meet the GA criteria found in WP:WIAGA. In particular, it fails to meet Criteria #1 (Well Written) and Criteria #2 (Factually Accurate and Verifiable). Of concern are many sections without reference, many unsourced trivial facts that have been added, poor introduction, and poor wikification of the intro and throughout. Examples include:

• As has been pointed out on the article talk page, the intro. has degenerated into a poor state and is quite jumpy/choppy. It does not properly summarize the article.
• Also pointed out on the talk page, the Intro alone has dozens of opportunities for proper wikification. Wikification throughout the intro and the article is sporadic and uneven. For example, an author felt it important to wikify "cardiac arrest" in the Intro, but did not feel it important to wikify "respiratory failure". In this instance, it should be both (preferable) or neither.
• Also pointed out on the talk page, the article includes a lot of trivia. Some examples include:
  • Section on Jada Pinkett-Smith that should be summarized in one or two sentences.
  • List of books the subject read, which is included to make a point. The same point can (and has) been made, in summarized form, previously in the article without a book list.
  • Trivial items also include career trivia and paragraphs of unsourced trivial statements about subject's future plans at time of death.
• Redundant redundancy is a problem. Some items are redundant, such as mentioning the subject's suspicions that certain other rappers had set him up to be killed, which is mentioned (verbosely) no less than 3 times (Intro, "Life on Death Row", "The November 1994 Shooting"), and the writing of the screenplay "Live2Tell", which is discussed in "Acting Career" and "Prison Sentence".
• Overlapping sections are a problem, with some items apparently in the wrong section. As an example, the end of the "Early Life" section includes several sentences discussing the beginning of the subject's career. The next section is titled "Early Career".
• Fan site sourcing. In particular the trivial items are sourced to Fan Sites, like this Russian Fan Site, Tupac Mania.
• Direct (mis-)quotes are not sourced. A direct quote from film critic Peter Travers ("the film's most magnetic figure") is actually a misquote, *and* it is unsourced. The correct quote and source were previously included in the article, but were subsequently changed.
• There are two paragraphs of completely *unsourced* trivia at the end of the "Life on Death Row" section.
• There are unsourced quotes from a rape victim, as well as unsourced trivia that includes very strong statements like the assertion that Shakur developed the word (Thug Life) into an acronym standing for "The Hate U Gave Little Infants Fucks Everybody".
• The article needs a good copyediting. There are grammar and punctuation errors throughout. For instance, the double comma in the album generated two hits, "Keep Ya Head Up" and "I Get Around", , the latter.
• Some areas of the article do not follow the guidelines at the Manual of Style (Dates and Numbers), such as the spelling out of certain numbers ("11" = "eleven" in the intro., while the number "6" a few sentences later is spelled out "six"; construction should be paralleled).

The article appears to have largely degenerated into an unsourced, poorly constructed, substandard hodge-podge of trivia about an extremely important figure in hip-hop. Changes have been attempted to bring it inline with Wikipedia guidelines &emdash; including copyediting, verification of sources, addition of more sources, removal of trivia, rewriting of entire sections, etc. Unfortunately attempts to bring the article up to WP:GA or even WP:FA status are constantly reverted. This article should be delisted immediately, and until such time as it is brought up to the WP:GA level. SqlPac 15:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Surprise, surprise... Tupac's Not Dead

At least not according to the first sentence of your article. Might want to check those facts. SqlPac 18:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism happens on a nearly daily basis to this article; nothing to get worked up about. It has since been reverted. -- Phoenix2 ^{(talk, review)} 19:30, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Merely pointing out it needed to be fixed. SqlPac 23:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

My bad. If you're watching the article, be prepared to see a lot of such activity. -- Phoenix2 ^{(talk, review)} 23:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I check in every once in a while, but not so much since it's gotten so bad. Thanks. SqlPac 00:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

2pac exposed biggie and bad boy

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dCciv39q5Ms&mode=related&search=

Check that out and you will see who was the realest!!

A Blood???

I am surprised to see Tupac Shakur listed as a Blood and a gang member in one of his categories. Could you people in this area give a citation? Citations are needed in Wikipedia, you know.--Triple-Quadruple 07:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)