Talk:General Motors

GM imminent demise

It has been floated by CNBC and Bloomberg i think on June 27, 2008 that Ford, GM and Chrysler will collapse in the next 18 months and probably only Ford will survive. There are a lot of sites that mentioned this, just type it in google.com. I think its financial health is a very important key information to show users of the GM information a clear picture where it is financially. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.128.34.58 (talk) 07:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Panda! We have just been through one of the bigggest booms in US consumer history, and GM still can't make any money!!! The truth is that they are a rubbish company that makes rubbish products that no body is willing to pay much for. I think that the article should incorporate this. CefurPanda (talk) 13:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Electric Vehicles

It does seem as if some of GM's PR agents were writing some of this page. GM's EV1 was a significant car, but it wasn't the only production electric car from a major car company (and the sentence about this is awful). Ford sold the Ranger EV, Chrysler had the Dodge Caravan EPIC, Fiat offered the Cinquecento electric, PSA offered the Peugeot 106 electric, and the article is TRYING to describe the EV1 as a dedicated electric vehicle, Nissan offered the Altra EV and the Hypermini...both designed from the ground up as electrics.

Would anyone be offened if I removed said line from the article?

I totally agree. In Europe a significant number of solely electical vehicle was offered by major OEM.

GM also saves kittens from trees

holy ******, who wrote this tripe? GM cares about fuel efficiency? What a f***ing joke. this article is awful.

This is not the kind of language you would want to see in an encyclopedia. If you wish to dispute something within the article, please let us know by using appropriate language. Thanks!

And since this is an encyclopedia, you should also try to keep to facts instead of jumping all over articles, bashing them with your own opinions. Your claim that GM doesn't care about fuel efficiency seems somewhat flawed to me though, as the auto market increasingly demands it.

GM is no different than other successful corporations. They must manufacture what people want to purchase. Customers are buying large vehicles, SUVs and trucks. People are not or are only temperarily interest in fuel economy. It is not fair to blame a corporation for giving people what they want.

• in a strange side note, there are some kittens living in the second floor of the gm assembly plant in arlington texas. weird, eh? :þ clsours ¡Æ! 07:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

General Motors has recently announced they plan to be the world leader in fuel economy by 2010.

I absolutely agree that this article reads as if it were written by GM spin doctors. It is laughable at best. --JJ 04:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Continuity error

It says that the chinese currnecy is pegged to the dollar, still. Elfuegocaliente 02:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Claims and Lawsuits

California has filed lawsuits against six car companies, including GM, for gas emissions leading to global warming. I think this should be added soon if it proves to pan out in the next few days.Jeremyburkhart 05:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Jeremy I don't see how that lawsuit will hold up in court. In order for GM or any other auto company to be sued there would have to be overwhelming evidence that their vehicles were causing a purposeful detriment to the enviroment beyond what could be considered normal. Also the people who filed the lawsuit left out coal burning powerplants which pollute in much higher volumes than do passenger cars.91z4me 11:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't even think of that. I also noticed that the other car companies' pages don't have any mention of the lawsuit, so it probably wouldn't make sense to put it here either. Jeremyburkhart 02:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Controversey

General Motors Corporation has been accused by a variety of consumer advocates, activists, commentators, journalists, and documentary makers of deliberately sabotaging their companies' zero emmision electric vehicle efforts through several methods: failing to market, failing to produce appropriate vehicles, failing to satisfy demand, and using lease-only programs with prohibitions against end of lease purchase. By these actions they have managed to terminate their electric vehicle development and marketing programs despite operators' offers of purchase and assumption of maintenance liabilities.

The process of obtaining GM's first electric vehicle the EV1 was difficult. The vehicle could not be purchased outright. Instead, General Motors offered a closed-end lease for three years, with no renewal or residual purchase options. The EV1 was only available from specialist Saturn dealerships, and only in California.

Before reviewing leasing options, a potential lessee would be taken through a 'pre-qualification' process in order to learn how the EV1 was different from other vehicles. Next came a waiting list with no scheduled delivery date.

A documentary about the demise of the EV1 and other electric vehicles entitled Who Killed the Electric Car? debuted on June 30, 2006. Several weeks before the debut of the movie, the Smithsonian Institution announced that its EV1 display was being permanently removed and the EV1 car put into storage. GM is a major financial contributor to the museum, and both parties denied that this fact contributed to the removal of the display.

According to the interview with Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner in the June 2006 issue of Motor Trend magazine, the cancellation of the EV1 proggram has been one of the worst decision he has ever made.[1]

First of all, please make sure to sign your discussions so we know who is speaking. Secondly, I want to remove your added content for a complete lack of citation... The movie you referenced unfortunately pulled a lot of hype and controversy that frankly didn't exist until the editors made it up. I encourage you to read the blogged response by a GM Editor directly to the film found at http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/fastlane_Blog.html#EV1

This link is 404 also Tangurena 04:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Lastly, please be sure to include some quotes from the source I mentioned to you, the section you posted without sources throws off our NPOV we're striving for in this article. --Lucavious 17:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

California wanted direct electrical connections for electric vehicles. The EV1 used a paddle, which inductively conducted the charge, as opposed to a mechanical connection like your wall outlet. GM felt that the direct connections were unsafe in non-desert conditions, like every other state other than the southwest. Direct connectors lose less energy, but aren't as safe in the rain. There are waterproof connectors available, but most are rated for a small number of insertion/removal cycles, some of the waterproof connectors in engine compartments and underside of cars are rated for 10 cycles: disconnect and reconnect them more, and they should be replaced. Tangurena 04:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Is this: http://fyi.gmblogs.com/2006/12/mark_phelan_electric_car_kille.html the article linked in this section? The other links for the FastLane blog and for citation 11 are now 404. Tangurena 04:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

So many unbalanced views...

"Cadillac is number one seller of vehicles over $40,000, proving that GM has the vehicles that real luxury consumers want." So... that's a neutral sentence of encyclopedia-quality these days? Bobbo008 02:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does nearly the whole article read like it was written by a UAW-card-carrying GM employee? Except for the "Controversy" bit, which looks, as another commenter has stated, like an advertisement for the movie about electric vehicles. I came to this article looking for a broader POV than what I found -- for example, has any proper research been conducted into why Honda and Toyota sedans outsell GM ones in GM's home market, the US? Anonymous 15:19, 14 August 2006 (EDT)

ROFL!!!! no no no. UAW would never write anything like this page. you guys are just too funny. #1 The word UAW does not appear before the word GM, which it would if this were written by UAW. :þ clsours ¡Æ! 07:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

This page is an embarassment, honestly. I actually went ahead and researched all the POV stuff, and most of it is severely exaggerated. Frankly, this page needs to be deleted and remade. You can see all the mistakes I found here:

http://www.ordisante.com/2006/09/08/8-things-wrong-with-gm-article-at-wikipedia-2.html

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Would anyone scream bloody murder if many of the paragraphs were removed from the mid to lower portions? Why are we bragging about GM's accomplishments over Saturn in quality or the inflation of ratings by their competitors? Lucavious 22:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks like someone has taken care of the GM horn tooting, is there a need for the neutral tag stuck on the article at this point? I am going to go ahead and remove it as there doesn't appear to be anymore traces of imbalance, though anyone who disgrees can add it again easily enough.Lucavious 16:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

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The infobox says GM was founded in 1908, but the text says 1902 -- anybody know which is correct? Bananafish 20:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

1908. Here's the quote from GM's heritage page (http://www.gm.com/company/corp_info/history/gmhis1900.html):

"Under Billy Durant's leadership, General Motors Company is organized in 1908 (Sept 16), incorporating the Buick Motor Company."

I didn't know that Oldsmobile joined GM second. My mom thinks that they were independent up until the 60s and THEN GM basically bought and killed them.

--Plasmax000 17:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

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Doesn't GM also own Holden and Opel? And perhaps we could flesh out the history more... it sounds kinda biased....

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Paragraph 3 discusses an urban legend based on Bradford Snell's work about tram lines but then further paragraph report as truth GM WWII involvement also based on work by the same Bradford Snell. What gives? Rmhermen 15:22 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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This seems a little non-NPOV about the WWII involvement. Implied is that GM's American management willfully supported the Nazi regime AFTER the start of hostilities, which I believe not to be the case. Accounts I've read squarely put the German government in control of German GM subsidiaries during the war years. Anyone got cites pro/con? --Morven 21:14, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Wasn't Hughes spun off as an independent company a few years ago?

Wasn't Hughes spun off as an independent company a few years ago? Mkweise 06:42, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

No, it was Electronic Data Systems Corporation that became an independent company in 1996. Hughes Aircaft was sold to Raytheon in 1997. Hughes Space & Communications Company was sold to Boeing in 2000. Hughes Electronics' Direct TV and Hughes Network Systems was sold to News Corporation in 2003.

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I do have issues with that paragraph the anon removed, though -- I don't like 'alleged' in an article without a source for the allegation. —Morven 10:37, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Removal / reinsertion of controversial topics

I support the reversion of the anon's complete removal of these topics, but I do believe that these sections are POV, lack any cites, and should be done better.

For the first paragraph (streetcar conspiracy) we should mention only SOME believe it; I'll edit the article to say so.

For the second, I note the paragraph contains many words on GM's guilt and then one final line saying that GM disclaims responsibility because the factories were seized during the war. That's not really balanced. —Morven 20:13, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

since when have conspiracy theories been encylopediac in relating to the main entry? Are we going to start having area 51 be and rosewell be in the cia/fbi/us government sections? if you want to talk about conspiracy theroies they need to be on a different page. Or give reasons why this isn't a conspiracy theory(and even if it is on a conspiracy theory page, those edits need to be made to be more npov, they make it seem like america was helping both sides when we were at war, which is entirly untrue.

To deny that there such conspiracy theories are commonly believed by many is unencyclopedic. If you feel the statements contain factual errors, then correct them. If you feel the phrasing is unfairly biased, then revise the material. But wholessale deletion is not acceptable. Please see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete For the record, I quite agree that this section very much needs attention, but I very much disagree with wholesale deletion simply because you don't like it. older≠wiser 15:58, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

yes but they don't belong in the main article about that comany. taking up 1/2th of the history, Unless that company for some reason is known only for that conspiracy theory or that comes to mind when people think of them, which really isn't the case for General motors. I notice that under moon landing, the fact that it never happened(which a large section of people belive) has been moved to a sepeate section because the general consenus there was that conspiracy theories don't belong in the main article

I'd have no problem with addressing this conspiracy theory stuff in separate articles and linking to it in the See Also section. older≠wiser 16:14, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

Okay good stuff that's fine... if you do that I'll clean up the dislogic a bit(it was trying to make you belive that general motors was helping during ww2, which just wasn't the case at all).

Bkonrad is right, am happy with that solution but will revert any anonymous user's change if not defended in detail on this page. Lukewilson 23:22, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I went ahead and changed the following paragraph wich originally read:

"GM has extensively touted its research and prototype development of hydrogen powered vehicles, to be produced at some unspecified future time and using a support infrastructure yet to be built. The economic feasibility of the technically challenging hydrogen car, and the low-cost production of hydrogen to fuel it. is controversial, particularly when compared to the hybrid vehicles already produced by competitors."

And changed it to:

"GM has prided its research and prototype development of hydrogen powered vehicles, to be produced in early 2010, using a support infrastructure still in a prototype state. The economic feasibility of the technically challenging hydrogen car, and the low-cost production of hydrogen to fuel it, has also been discussed by other automobile manufacturers such as Ford and Chrysler."

The original paragraph seemed to have an odd point of view, plus the second sentence was fragment. Also, most of the claims have since changed. For instance, GM has already sold hydrogen vehicles to the US military. And a consumer date has been made for 2010 vehicle models (which would be released in late 2009 or early 2010).

Sources: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060920/AUTO02/609200354/1148/AUTO01 Jeremyburkhart 03:25, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Financial challenges for GM: Why is this being deleted?

It's no secret that GM has financial challenges ahead, there was a reasonable section with reliable sources that anonymous users have deleted a few times. It is not obvious why. Perhaps there could be some explanation from the anonymous users... MunchieRonnie 16:25, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• I don't know and don't really much care, but I have protected this page due to excessive reversion activity. -Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 19:26, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The financial information on GM should stay unless there's a good reason. NihonGo 21:32, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

why are you posting agreeing with yourself? that's kinda strange anonymous

Does anyone believe the financial info on GM should be deleted?

I think Keep. Reithy 07:58, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)

Ha, funny there is a discussion about absence of the company's financial problems. It seem the person editing it out is not alone. Here is an article about the company withdrawing advertisement from a paper, apparently because the paper featured a critical article. [2] The thing is, editing it out is pointless. The company is heading into a very troubled time if oil continue selling at the current price and the problem will become so had to cover up. I feel for those affected, but then again, these are the same companies that were previously lobbing against law that discouraged gas guzzlers. Go lobby the oil market now GM

Oddly enough, oil prices are dropping more than their normal for the time of the year. GM's stocks have made a huge comeback since late summer.Jeremyburkhart 05:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

"Chinese government's extensive purchase of U.S. government debt in the form of bonds." This is an overexageration. The Chinese do NOT own a significant part of the US dept. It's large but by no means unusual or worth mentioning. Here is a chart to prove it. here

they are the 4th largest holder, 2nd largest foreign holder, also their share is continually increasing, not fluctuating. that is significant, especially when juxtaposed with the trade imbalance and the dynamics of Chinese industry :þ clsours ¡Æ! 07:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Uhm, probably because some PR flacks have discovered wikipedia is a 'liability' and pay some newly minted college PR flunkie to come here and erase anything 'controversial', hiding behind wikipedias 'NPV'. so neutral you might as well not have an article in the first place.

Mis-quote of Wilson

Off the topic that others have been speaking about, I wonder why people keep making errors about Pres. Wilson's comments before the congressional committee. He actually said "What is good for the country is good for General Motors and what is good for General Motors is good for the country". This seems both a harmless and not very important statement; it is obviously a simple statement of fact. It does not make GM, and Wilson, look like Military Industrial Complex monsters, which the use of only the second half of his statement might seem to imply. This twisting of meaning of the quote, derived by omotting its first half, is a simple propaganda trick, and the Left has been beating Capitalism with it since it was first made. And it shows up even here, in this site. "Give us this day and our daily illusion"--it doesn't take much to keep people happy.

'what is good for corporation xyz is good for the country' is not a simple statement of fact, nor is it obvious. there are hundreds of examples through history in which what is considered 'good' by some people for a corporation are not considered 'good' by many people for a country as a whole. and who does the deciding for whoom is very important. it goes back to the very simple principle of 'special interests' controlling the government, which has been talked about for centuries before there was a 'left', 'right' or anything called communism. that is why we have a democratic system of government, not a corporateocratic or money-o-cratic system of government. the people as a whole decide what is good for the country, not any small group that has gained power for whatever reason.

So what part of all that justifies mis-quotation? What Wilson said was "What is good for the country is good for General Motors and vice versa." He actually said "vice versa," so the phrase usually quoted as if it came out of his mouth didn't, although it was implied. And the emphasis of his original statement was quite the opposite of what it has often been made out to be. The emphasis was that, as a public official, he would start with the good for the country, and simply expect that this would work out well for GM as well. He may have been wrong about that, but if so the wrongness is of a conventionally liberal, harmony-of-long-term-interests sort. If you disagree with somebody, you ought to be especially scrupulous about quoting them accurately. Otherwise you're just disagreeing with a boogyman of your own creation. --Christofurio 13:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

US government subsidizing import?

Does anyone know whether this is true? "Government has also contributed to the industry's structural problems. By one estimate, state governments subsidize foreign transplants such as BMW and Honda plants to the tune of $1,000 per car. And state franchise laws make it prohibitively expensive to rationalize dealer networks and nameplates. Worst of all are clean-air rules that essentially require companies to produce and sell low-pollution passenger cars at a loss, just to offset the environmental damage done by all their trucks and SUVs." [3] I really don't understand how US government can be able to subsidize foreign import when US car manufactures have such a powerful lobby.

Oldsmobile

I know Oldsmobile is now dead and gone, but shouldn't it get a mention at least? -james_anatidae 06:32, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

It's listed on the world's largest automaker as being defunct, but I think it's worthy of being listed here too.Jeremyburkhart 05:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Some insightful writing about why GM got in the health quigmire

Ha, it looks like GM had been paying lightly as employees seemed to have preffered a health security more than a fat monthly cheque. The sad thing is they may end up loosing on health care, even though they took a lean monthly cheque. [4]

I'm disgusted at the Canada comment in this article: "A VEILED EXCUSE", that seems a little biased.

GM doesn't produce hybrids?

I belive this line from the article is inaccurate, but I'm not 100%:

"Toyota and Honda have also introduced gasoline/electric or diesel/electric hybrid vehicles into their product mix whereas, as of October of 2005, General Motors has not."

This page lists a Chevy and a GMC truck that are hybrids: http://www.gm.com/automotive/innovations/altfuel/vehicles/pickup/hybrid/

I'm not sure when these hybrid truck lines came out, but I thought it was before Oct. 2005. Am I wrong about this? ~~

The Silverado Hybrid and the Sierra Hybrid were introduced before October 2005, but they were only sold to select markets before they went nationwide. --ApolloBoy 18:58, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Let's not forget that GM made the first hybrid bus, too.

Porshe was the first to experiment with hybrid technology, followed by GM who was first to build on the concept, then Toyota, followed by Honda.Jeremyburkhart 03:31, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The large suv plants are gearing up to produce hybrids beginning in late 2007 :þ clsours ¡Æ! 07:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Many GM vehicles marketed as hybrids are actually mild hybrids (oversized starter motors so they can kick on and off while in motion) rather than true hybrids such as those from Honda and Toyota. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 148.65.89.254 (talk) 05:28, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

Bottom section

What's with the section that ends with "By John Gleeson" at the bottom of the article? It seems to have been pasted there completely out of context. --Closeapple 05:16, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I am wondering if this is the John Gleeson that works at the Oshawa Truck Assmembly Plant ...

We are currently in the process of running 'test' hybrid vehicles at Oshawa that run on Ethanol.

bespoke ???

I noticed that "bespoke" is used twice in this article. This word is incredibly uncommon in the US. I looked up the word on m-w.com, and it seems "custom" or "custom-made" might be more easily understood by the typical US reader, though I'm not 100% sure these words capture the same meaning the author is trying to convey. Thoughts?

I fixed it. it's a British term, used for custom tailored suits. Rjensen 22:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Explanation of pension/ health care problems?

Does anyone know a clear, NPOV explanation of GM's pension/ health care problems that we can incorporate into the article? Someone gave a link above which kind of skims over it, but seems to over simplify. Did workers really demand, and GM really agree to, paying unfunded benefits that it seriously hoped would come out of future earnings? MrVoluntarist 04:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

"Due to its highly compensated workforce GM has the highest health care and labor costs in the industry, and some analysts have criticized the company for this."

This seems to be a POV and at least requires a citation (perhaps several), doesn't it? 71.131.209.192 23:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

POV? It doesn't make much sense to bgein with, or at least is poorly phrased. It should't be hard to find a source. But as of now I have a hard time even knowing what to add for reasons above. Every criticism I've read makes it sound like he unions made stupid demands. Not excessive demands; rather, demands which if satisfied would have made them worse off. MrVoluntarist 00:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that this gets into complex discussions of how our economy runs and how people pay for mistakes. I feel that almost all discussions have a POV slanted toward the company, for instance, any discussion that uses words like "excessive" to discuss employee pay is slanted, since this pay was granted by the company. You can weasel all you want about the union holding the company hostage, but in the end you executives are paid big bucks to look after the company.

One also almost never hears how the failure of GM management - the colossal, decades long failure, evidenced by their slide in market share - never gets blamed. why is this ?

Commentary not suitable for article

Came across this Jeremy Clarkson commentary. Too sarcastic/opinionated for the article, but funny nontheless. Clarkson is lamenting the effect GM has had on its Vauxhall subsidiary:

"...Vauxhall’s a part of General Motors which, so far as I can tell... seems to concentrate mainly on pensions and healthcare and for as long as I can remember has seen the car making side of the business as an expensive loss-making nuisance. This explains the [old] Vectra. They gave it some seats, a pair of windscreen wipers and a roof, and, just before the morning coffee break, with a sigh of relief, went back to their Medicare and pension plans." [5] --Mark83 13:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Live Green Go Yellow

Shouldn't this article mention how gm is supporting Ethanol with it's Live Green go Yellow campaign? Mathiastck 19:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but also note that this is mainly a way for GM to gain CAFE mileage credits at minimal cost, resulting in greater fuel consumption within the fleet - and that is gasoline, owing to the unavailablity of E85 at the pump. Also, E85 will be a non-starter without extensive subsidies and/or cost reduction, owing to 20 to 25 percent lower enegery content by volume and consequent poorer milage. Note that imported ethanol faces a 100 percent tariff to protect ADM and other maize-based domestic US ethanol producers.

Perhaps a little off the subject, isn't E85 a worse solution than Brazil's 100% sugarcane ethanol solution? Why is America including the 15% gas inclusion? Lucavious 19:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I support the off topic movement, in general. Sugarcane ethanol is better then corn ethanol, right? The US seems to have a strong corn ethanol lobby, despite it's seeming inefficiency. Mathiastck 22:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

cellulose ethanol is better than both of those, and reduction of consumption is better than anything else. btw, i have one of those flexfuel tags on my lappy. brought it home from work. :þ clsours ¡Æ! 07:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes the corn ethanol lobby is so powerful they can control the climate. 71.128.205.128 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 09:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way the reason for the 15% gasoline is to get halfway decent mpg. 71.128.205.128 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

mpg is the wrong measure and is used for historical reasons. We are interested in perhaps distance / $, distance / energy or distance / (CO2 emission). If ethanol has a specific energy of 30MJ/kg and petrol 45MJ/kg it is clearly unreasonable to compare the two directly. If we were only concerned with mpg we'd burn beryllium or something instead. The reason gasoline is cheaper than ethanol is the remarkable ease of crude oil extraction, when we include the externalities it is nowhere near as clear. --Jaded-view (talk) 05:33, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Current Event Boilerplate Text?

personally I would describe "General Motors" as a current event. Yes it changes rapidly, but i dont see the relevance of it changing "as the event progresses"

this doesnt quite make sense

GM's variable valve timing system VVT would operate throughout the entire RPM range provide superior performance. Japanese automakers reacted by adding i for intelligence, to do what GM's system had already been doing

Neutrality

Did anyone read this article. It smells of GM friendly bias. Compare this article to ones on other automakers like Toyota, Ford, or Honda.

For example, take a look at the hybrid section.

"GM delivered the first commercial hybrid vehicle and was early innovator in hybrid vehicle development, building Diesel-electric trains since the 1930s and buses since the 1990s (but without stored energy recovery)."

That sentence makes it sound like GM delivered the first commercial passenger car. Also, I'm not exactly sure what a Disel-electric train without stored energy recovery is supposed to say about hybrid.

The article has also had several questionable revisions, such as the removal of Gm's financial troubles. The marketting section is especially suspect, considering how it singles out pro GM articles.

The article also states "Ford was moralistically opposed to credit." while Ford did have a line of credit in that time period.

I believe they mean dynamic brakes when they say no energy recovery. It isn't particularly relevent, I don't think, although the technology is similar to what hybrids use. TastyCakes 22:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Marketing (GM flack edits?)

Marketing problems section was gutted and is now Marketing trends, removing historical quality problems and now it is looking like a corporate puff piece due to IP edits. Looks like GM flack has been here. - Leonard G. 15:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Is the article being vandalized?

The bias seems pretty severe to me. For example, the marketing section seems to be almost an advertisment for GM, citing statistics and polls that trumpet GM's quality, while disparaging competitors by name.

I agree, some of this section is ridiculous, here's why:

Removed:

"Foreign automakers and their media allies regrouped, and the marketing competition resumed. Foreign automakers tried a different marketing tactic focusing on technology. Once again, foreign automakers were just trying to create perception. Honda valve systems even lacked hydraulic lifters, and Japanese automakers were mostly using rubber timing belts. In the 1980s, Japanese automakers still had a long way to go."

• Why does Honda need to be singled out as a competitor to GM? Many Honda valve systems lack hydraulic lash adjusters because they can be problematic in overhead cam engines. Also many Honda engines generally only need to have the valves adjusted once throughout the operating life of the engine, the reduced complexity and cost is pretty well justified. Belt driven cams have been used or are currently used by just about every major auto manufacturer. American manufacturers, including GM did not begin to widely use overhead cam engines until the 1990s and when they did begin to adopt the overhead cam configuration many of them were also driven by belts. The advantages timing belts have made them popular choice. Belts are quieter in their operation, less expensive and are mechanically more efficient than chains, the draw back being that they require routine maintenance that can often be difficult to perform. IJB TA 23:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

"In 1989, Acura began showing the NSX, which had a variable valve timing system to create the perception that Japan had technology and 'tolerances'. However, in September of 1975, GM had already patented the first Smart Value, the progenitor of today's many versions of variable valve timing."

• Again, why is Honda alone important to GM's marketing strategy? The variable valve timing systems GM had been researching the 1970s were never produced because of problems encountered during development. They did not inspire any future variable valve timing devices. IJB TA 23:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

"GM's variable valve timing system VVT would operate throughout the entire RPM range providing superior performance. Japanese automakers reacted by adding i for intelligence, in a band aid approach to lift the valves to do what GM's more advanced cam timing system had already been doing. On efficiency, the Japanese marketing failed again, GM V-6 and V-8 models lead in their respective class for fuel economy."

• Inaccurate information.

Controversy section

The stuff about the electric car doesn't seem notable enough to have such a big section, and it seems more like a plug for the "who killed the electric car" book than anything. Of course I may be biased - I have a hard time swallowing the claim that GM didn't want its electric car program to work in order to support oil companies. How about a little dose of reality - GM doesn't care if oil companies like them. I think they just decided electric cars were a dead end and instead focussed on fuel cells and (later) hybrids. All the rest of this issue smells of hugely POV speculation and conspiracy theory. TastyCakes 22:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely agreed. It looks to me like someone saw the movie and felt like they needed to go on a crusade to promote electric vehicles... Another reality check: They cost A LOT of money (The price of small house). 50,000 people signed up to lease one but as little as 50 ever bothered to get it when the chance arose. --Lucavious 22:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The Seattle EV Association was formed over 24 years ago by a small group of visionaries dedicated to the proposition that “ If Detroit won’t build affordable electric cars for us, we should do it ourselves.” and help anyone else who would like to do the same. Through public education, demonstration, and proliferation of EVs of all kinds, be they electric cars, trucks, boats, or bikes. They have MONTHLY meetings. For time and place, check their web site [6], or call the information line.

Essentially the most common EV consists of a small compact (donor) car with stick shift, where all gas or diesel components are taken out, and replaced with batteries, electric motor, charger, relays, speed control, and gauges. The hardware usually costs around $8000. and the labor to put it all together, if one cannot do it ones self is approximately $2000. These are AVERAGES. More speed, more performance, more range…. costs more. Performance of such an average car, would be highway speeds up to 70 mph, and range at more modest speeds of up to 50 miles on a single charge. Might not sound like much, but it could replace HALF of all GAS and Diesel cars which start up their engines each and every day here in North America. And every one would get to work on time, and no one would run short of charge before returning home at night. Charging would cost ONE FIFTH of what the average car owner pays for GAS for the same average daily commute ! [7]

Below is a partial list of Web Sites dealing with aspects of Electric Cars in the Northwest, and the US.

ORGANIZATIONS

Seattle EV Association: http://www.seattleeva.org/ Electric Auto Association of the US: http://www.eaaev.org Oregon Electric Vehicle Association http://www.oeva.org/ National Electric Drag Racing Assoc. http://www.nedra.com/ EV BUSINESSES

Electric Vehicles Northwest Inc. http://www.electricbikes.bigstep.com/ EV Parts of Pt. Townsand http://www.EVParts.com/ The Electric Boat Company http://www.theelectricboatco.com Cloud Electric Vehicles- Kent Wa. http://cloudelectric.com The Green Car Company http://www.greencarco.com OTHER EV RE-Sources

Alt Fuel Vehicle Directory: http://www.vwc.edu/~gnoe/avd.htm EV Discussion List Photo Album http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/

If you're so hell bent on promoting electric vehicles make a seperate article on it and stop fudging up this one. --Lucavious 20:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality

This is a perfect example of GM at work - the whole article stinks of a GM advertising plot to hijack this article to praise themselves.

You drop in, don't cite any reasons, don't even SIGN your discussion post and mark the article imbalanced? No. --Lucavious 21:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps not a hijack, but this article does seem inbalanced to me.

GM largest foreign automaker in China?

Not according to the wiki on VW group. Anyone care to check this? Just noticed this discrepentcy.

Deletion?

There's not even a project page for the deletion request, nor has there been ANY discussion concerning the revising or removal of it. Therefore whoever put it up can do their homework before destroying the credibility of this article. --Lucavious 00:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Japanese import limitations in Germany?

Although some commentators have claimed that European manufactures are somewhat disadvantaged by over-regulation, Germany places market share limits on Japanese imports, controlling Japan's ability to manipulate the market.

As a German, I hear this for the first time, and additionally, Toyota sales are soaring in Germany. The statement seems untrue to me and doesn't state a source. I placed {{Fact}} behind the phrase, but if it turns out to be untrue, I'd like to delete it - comments? -- Philipp Krebs 01:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Market share

"In 1962 half the cars sold in America were made by GM. Now its market share is roughly 25 percent" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/29/AR2005042901385.html Shouldn't a decline like this get a mention?

Not like that, no. Its far too simplistic and ignores other factors, namely that in 1962 the playing field was dominated by the Big Three and a handful of failing indepedents (Studebaker, Packard, Nash) with virtually no imports to speak of. Fast-forward to today where nearly fifty different marques are sold in the United States and the rote number of competitors is far greater than it was in the past. Simply quoting that figure makes it seem like a failing of General Motors without the realization that market dynamics are what changed. No automaker can ever hope to achieve such total domination of the US market again. --24.96.69.81 21:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Electric Automobiles

The electric car controversy should not appear under GM's main page, it should be relegated to the page under the EV1 automobile. The fact that this controversy stems from a movie that has been in theaters for almost three months and is distributed by SONY has earned under $1.5 million dollars doesn't justify it being on GM's main page when in earned $192.604 Billion last year. Why isn't the controversy on Honda Motor Company or Toyota's main page, they were involved in this so called "conspiracy".

The fact of the failure of the electric car is that for ANY automaker to be succesful they must be able to sell to the average American. The average American 10 years ago only earned $30,000 a year and the lease price was $300 for a car that you could not drive long distance. Many Americans needed a vehicle that could drive long distances because discount airlines were not prevelant 10 years ago and flying was expensive. You must look at the economics of it to understand why the concept failed, to many editors don't understand economics and just see it as GM being a big bully.

This is merely anti-GM sentiment, if you don't want to buy a GM vehicle that is fine, there are plenty of other high caliber automakers that make great vehciles. But it is completely unfair to hold GM responsible for the failure of electric automobiles.

Well, that's your respectable opinion, but opinion nonetheless. The criticism section serves to counter perceived anti-GM bias by promoting pro-GM bias, and it uses a fairly specious argument to do so. The financial success of documentaries have no bearing on the veracity of their claims. Documentaries typically don't make a lot of money, but don't cost a lot to produce, but that is neither here nor there. Whether or not public opinion supports the claim that GM purposefully set the EV1 up to fail, it has no bearing on the truth or falseness of the statement.

I don't particularly care whether GM "killed the electric car" or not. But, in an encyclopedia, we can't substitute poor logic and personal opinion for verifiable facts. Take a look at the page for Who Killed the Electric Car?; it balances pro- and anti- arguments, and criticises the movie using more fact-based angles. Cheers, Skinwalker 23:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

POV problems

A lot of the article, esp. the history, seems to read it like it was taken from the PR department. This is a notification that I will be making a lot of changes soon to remove what I believe to be POV violations and make the information more neutral. Current version as of this post is [8]. I'm not going to put a POV tag on it yet because I don't think it's fair to do so until I have the time to document the problems on the talk page. MrVoluntarist 13:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Please change away. I think a GM marketroid^H^H^H^H^H^H^H salesman has been hard at work here. I excised some of the more egregious statements, but there are other POV bits that remain. Cheers, Skinwalker 00:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Changes thus far

Here is the comparison of some changes I made: [9]

Justification of changes: I mentioned the role of their historic pension underfunding in the pension crisis. The article blamed the pension crisis in part on rate hikes, but those would help the pension fund, though it is correct they would possibly hurt GM's ability to do business. I clarified that the GM hybrid advantages were based on their estimates and not independently confirmed. I removed the part about health care moving their business to Canada. That claim is so far only supported by people of one ideology, and such a person was the only source for the claim. It should only be re-included if both sides can be explained, as well as why foreign competitors don't prefer Canada for that reason. The article also mentioned exchange rates, and I clarified that this only applied to imports, and not competitors who manufactured in America. MrVoluntarist 09:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Edited the article

Minor Edit to the article concerning some bias:

One, the part about Germany restricting imports has had no citation for quite some time, and was removed. Two, in the same section of the article, the claim that foreign automakers "transplant" their workers into America create the illusion that the cars were "american made" is false and was deleted. It has no citation and in fact foreign Automakers do use American workers at their plants, who do not receive foreign health benefits. Also deleted was the statement that the fictional transplants were "less skilled" and lower paid that Union Workers. "Less Skilled" is an subjective statement and no citations were made to prove it anyway.

I revised the part about foreign workers and healthcare to say "Also, foreign automakers have health-care costs paid for by their respective governments." It then leads into the Canada portion of the section, and is now much less POV.

Oh uh, those edits were made by me, Scryer360. Dont have an signature lined up yet so....

Removed section

I removed a section that claimed GM cars of the 80's had better quality than imports of the era. I'm sorry, but go look on every other quality study of the time period and you'll see that GM is far, FAR behind Toyota, Honda and others in reliablity. The section that claimed one, ONE researcher claimed GM cars were better is non-conclusive considering 99% of studies in this field go against his results. If that section bears mentioning, then I think it's fair to include the ones that say GM was far behind in quality at that time.

Needs financial info

The article lacks basic financial info: Assets, liabilities, who owns the shares (and thus the company), how many shares are outstanding, etc. At least, there should be a link to this information.

I came to the article looking for a list of GM's largest shareholders.

Corporate Issues

This article reads like a promotional advertisement for General Motors, which is, of course, ridiculous. Particularly the "Corporate Issues" section is far too kind. I personally will remove that section if no one does anything to change it to a neutral point of view. Nicholasink 19:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Aren't GM at their third level bond issue? This article is out of touch with reality; it completely obscures the extent of GM's debt crisis. The way the article spells out every cent the company MAKES (eg, listing how many millions it pulls by selling out of this company and that company) but never compares this to how much the company LOSES (which is 10s of billions - hence the fact their bonds have been on the rampage) is totally biased. So sad that Wikipedia is a victim to this kind of spin even with such a major company.--DreamsReign 00:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

GM Builds Trains Too

I fee lit should be noted somewhere here that the electromotive devision of General Motors builds trains, in particular the highly successful [[[British Rail Class 66]]. User:Tom walker 21:55 GMT 1 October 2006

GM in China

I can't find a source for the figures at the moment, but I've read repeatedly over the years in publications such as "The Wall Street Journal" that Volkswagen, not GM, is the top foreign automaker in China.

I'd second that, I think there is a good source in the VW group article.

GM Being the Number One Automaker in the World

Wouldn't DaimlerChryler AG actually be the number 1 in the world since it makes 149.78 billion euros, which would make their revenue about 6 billion more than GMs? GMs revenue is only 192 billion, putting them behind the 198 billion that DaimlerChrysler gets because of Currency Conversion. Zodia 14:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No no, No.1 Automaker status determined by number of cars sold, not nessicarily profit made. GM sold more cars, even though it made much less money (for any number of reasons, take your pick). So you are correct, DaimlerChrysler pulled in a hell of a lot more money, but it still did not sell as many cars.

Think margins. *****

Technology leadership in the 1950s

I was under the impression that in the 1950s, GM was actually an innovative technology leader - can anyone supply some refs to back this up ? I was also under the impression tha the northstar V8 was actually a technology powerhouse (I am def NOT pro GM - just credit where it is due).

I do not have sources for you but 50 years ago yes, GM vehicles were on par if not a little more advanced than competitors, as they had stopped making flathead engines and started with half-circle combustion chambers, pushrods, later I think they are called "Pentroof" combustion chambers, and hydraulic lifters. All were, back then, huge tech advancements.

But you are wrong about the Northstar V8. When it first premiered, it was considered something special, but not now. The reason it was considered special was because GM had (finally) started making Dual-Overhead-Cam V8s, something Japan and Germany had done for years.

Today however, DOHC is nothing spectacular. In fact most foreign competitors engines are DOHC, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, they all use DOHC. Even Nissans big Titan pickup uses a DOHC design.

And DOHC is not even considered an achievement anymore: Bugatti's Veyron is technically quad-overhead-cam, and Ferrari and Lambo are using triple-overhead-cam designs in V8 and V10 engines.

Also, cylinder deactivation, something GM is just now touting as something new, has been standard on the Honda Civic for years. Just ask Honda or even better pry open one of those engines (the ones I did were a 99 and a 97 Civic, one an Si and one a DX I think)(the models of the car, not the engines themselves, I dont know Honda's engine names).

Signed by Scryer_360, who forgets how to use the sig creator thingy.

Cylinder deactivation was pioneered by General Motors in the 1980s in a variety of Cadillacs under the guise of a V8-6-4 engine. It failed because the technology simply wasn't there to facilitate seamless, reliable deactivation. Today, the technology is there and GM and Honda are leaders in it followed by Chrysler. Also, whoever is claiming the Honda Civic had cylinder deactivation is full of crap. A select number of J-block V6s in 2006 model year Pilots, Odysseys, and Accord Hybrids feature Variable Cylinder Management. A 4cyl with variable displacement technology would be woefully inefficient if not supplemented by another powerplant and would certainly not be fitted to a late-90s Civic DX, one of the cheapest cars available at the time. C'mon now. At least be plausible.

In regards to the Northstar engine, remember that it was originally marketed as the Northstar System that incorporated 4T80-E HydroMatic transmission, road-sensing suspension, Bosch 4-wheel ABS discs, and Magnasteer as well as the 32v Northstar V8. What made the Northstar truly unique was its limp-home mode that allowed it to drive in short hops for around 100 miles without coolant by using deactivated cylinder banks as air pumps.

Seriously, guys, all this info is even available right here on Wikipedia. --24.96.69.81 20:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Current Fuel Economy Leader?

This article, near a mentioning about GM trucks, claims the current fuel economy leader is Toyota.

This is wrong, Toyota is perceived as having good fuel economy but the fleet average for best fuel economy is Honda, do some math.

Scryer_360 03:58, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Crushed EV1's caption

bsd
This image had a tagging error, which caused the caption not to appear, and i corrected it. But it stated something I found dubious: "EV1s crushed by General Motors shortly after production". Any thoughts?--Benstown 02:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

General Motors/Nazi Regime

Much of this should be removed or made into another article. For one, far too much of the history section is taken up by it, and secondly, it presents a negative bias towards the company. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.61.15.101 (talk) 05:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

I agree, but lets discuss where the content is going, and how much is to remain, before deleting it. Flibirigit 17:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The physical size of this inclusion is only a small percentage of the overall article. It is fully referenced and refers to a period during which over 50 million people died. It is not an inconsequental reference or activity and remains an overlooked aspect of US corporate history (akin to IBM's involvment). This should not be swept under the carpet no matter how distasteful and, as it is factual and relevant, should be a part of the overall article.Northlight 23:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

• Agree. This info belongs on this page. In fact, the history section is not detailed enough in my opinion and should be expanded. If it gets too long, it can be reorganizd with sub-sections. -- P199 13:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

---

I tried to edit the references because one of them about the Naziness of GM is actually available to link to: Ford and GM Scrutinized for Alleged Nazi Collaboration http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/36370067.html?dids=36370067:36370067&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Nov+30%2C+1998&author=Michael+Dobbs&pub=The+Washington+Post&edition=&startpage=A.01&desc=Ford+and+GM+Scrutinized+for+Alleged+Nazi+Collaboration but when clicking edit of the references it lost all references info in the edit textarea and I would have had to of started over. Is this a bug? Can someone add the link I gave above to the reference (I believe #2 in the list)?

The Nazi part is very biased against GM. It states that the German government took over day to day in 1939 (as the link I provided confirms) then a paragraph starts out "Nevertheless, while General Motors has claimed that its German operations were outside its control during World War II, this assertion appears to be contradicted by available evidence." That sentence is a contradiction. The only linkable reference to the post states GM lost control in 1939 so how can it just be a "claim" by GM that operations were out of their control during WWII? It was out of their control.

Interesting that 2 of the 3 paragraphs of the washington post article are harmful to GM and the one paragraph from the post article which is left out of wikipedia is the one which is less harmful to GM. E.G. "Both Ford and General Motors declined requests for access to their wartime archives. Ford spokesman John Spellich defended the company's decision to maintain business ties with Nazi Germany on the grounds that the U.S. government continued to have diplomatic relations with Berlin up until the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941. GM spokesman John F. Mueller said that General Motors lost day-to-day control over its German plants in September 1939 and "did not assist the Nazis in any way during World War II.""

Might as well throw that one in there since all other info of the washington post article seems to be in the wiki.

---

It is just NOT true that Germany would not have been able to invade Poland without the help of GM. It is true that GM supplied the Wehrmacht with trucks which were essential for a successful invasion. But these trucks were all Opel-models, a former German company which GM took over after the big depression, just ten years before. Further the Wehrmacht had several other opportunities where they could get these trucks from. I demand that this part of the article will be removed!

What about the Poletown case?

This article needs to mention Poletown. General Motors was very involved in a case that is now defining eminent domain, a major political issue. Please include some mention of the legal case and GM's participation. If this article is included in Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States, we need to include how the company's policy is shaping US law.

Efkeathley 12:51, 06 March 2007 (EST)

Is there mention of the upcoming Transformers movie?

Since all of the cars used as disguises for the Autobots are from GM, there should be some mention of that in this article. Excuse me if I happened to miss it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by FingManiac (talk • contribs) 04:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

That would probably go in, "General Motors in Popular Culture" if there is such a page. While Transformers in a landmark for 2007 marketing, it's not exactly the evergreen issue that the whole article in general is. It may be prudent to wait a while to see just how GM sales are affected by the film. 24.58.210.63 15:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Chryler deals?

I've looked through this article and I've found nothing about the talks with DaimlerChrysler to buy Chrysler Corp. Someone should add it to the article. By the way, if GM does buy Chrysler, what would the do with Chrysler and Dodge? Jeep they could easily integrate into their lineup, yet Chrysler competes with Buick, and Dodge with Chevrolet. But then again, GMC competes with Chevrolet, too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.157.31.63 (talk) 02:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

it was here, but was split off along with the rest of the History of General Motors section - Scottr76 06:35, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Economics/EV controversy/other changes

Since this has been rated 'B-class', yet no one has posted related complaints or suggested improvements, I will begin some:

I suggest the Economics section be removed for the following reasons:

• Most of the first paragraph is about other automakers, and not anything directly related to GM, and sounds more like a defense of the tax breaks to Canadian citizens than anything that belongs in a GM article.
• If this tax break is to be listed, what about every other tax break gm has received? Where does it end?
• Second paragraph certainly does not belong here. Perhaps on Michigan or Ontario, but not here.
• Third paragraph is probably the only significant/interesting information in the section, but could be incorporated elsewhere. It doesn't really belong under 'Economics' anyways.

Elsewhere, I feel that the EV controversy section would be more appropriate in its own article, perhaps including other automakers efforts, with a smaller summary in the GM page in a reintegrated/reworked history section. The entire 98-year history of the company and countless models have been moved to allow coverage of a relatively minor current event involving a single experimental low-run model to remain here. I know some will claim it is not a 'minor' issue, but keep in mind it is hardly the first controversy GM has faced, yet others are NOT covered here or even in the history article. Ralph Nader's Unsafe at Any Speed for example, is not mentioned at all, but was a far more important event for the company and automotive history in general. Notice that the EV issue is also brought up, somewhat extensively considering the information is covered elsewhere in the article, in the Environment and alternative vehicles portion of the 'Programs' section, and arguably in a POV manner. A separate EV article would allow for a fuller explanation of the issues while not cluttering up the GM page with propaganda from both sides.

'Social Policies' could use some work, too, I am sure there are far more than two (currently uncited) items worth mentioning, positive or negative. if not, this section should be removed. - Scottr76 06:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

'Largest car manufacturer'

This title is based on ANNUAL sales, not quarterly. Until sales figures for all of 2007 are released, GM still holds this title, even if Toyota has beat them for one quarter, or even 3. Source: Detroit News/AP article regarding Toyota's 1Q 2007 sales results. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scottr76 (talk • contribs) 14:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

Who on earth is editing this to make it seem as if GM is still the largest manufacturer? It's an accepted standard that we are measuring "largest" by number of vehicles sold, NOT revenue, or profit. In fact this person has changed all of the major motor manufacturers, including Ford and Toyota! This is very misleading and should be corrected. Unless we are about to change the way in which we measure largest?

The guy at the top is right, Gm still holds that title. It is judged annually and can't be changed until this whole years sales are up. But Toyota does hold the title for the 1st quarter so I'll post that instead, but NOT for the year. In fact, if the Gm talks with DaimlerChrysler to buy Chrysler fall through, Toyota will not gain that title for a few years at the least.

I edited the first sentence to reflect BOTH sales volume (which is be measured quarterly) and production volume (measured annually). I would include sales revenue, but the source listed for that had no such information, only sales and production. If someone has a reference for revenue, that could be included, but not at the expense of the others. I think this is the best compromise between the two sides, rather than an edit war going on every time one company sells a few more cars than the other, or produces more, or whatever. There's no reason both methods can't be shown here. However, full-year production volume is typically used to declare the ranking of 'largest', as is written referenced article, and numerous others.--Scottr76 22:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

As further defense of this edit, while the old version (showing sales revenue only) was called 'simple and sweet', it has the following problems:

• It is incorrect. Rankings of size are determined by annual production volume, and is not determined until the end of the year, as stated in the referenced article.
• No citation. Nowhere in the article referenced will you find any mention of sales revenue, only sales volume.
• As a compromise to those who point out that GM has fallen behind this year, I feel it is fair to include sales volume for the current year, which can be updated as the year progresses. This is NPOV, whereas excluding one or the other could be seen as taking one side or the other.
• Both pieces of data are relevant and important, and neither should be dismissed, especially when the one that IS being dismissed is the standard by which the title is determined.
• General Motors still claims the title of largest automaker themselves, see GM Corporate Information. I have yet to see anything from Toyota themselves that claims they are 'largest', most likely because they also accept that full-year production is the standard by which those claims are made.
• Even in the referenced article states:

The figures — and sales growth rates — indicate that Toyota could overtake GM as the No. 1 automaker

Please note that it says 'could overtake', not 'has overtaken'. It clearly states the sales volume from last year, which supports with hard data that GM is largest by annual production.

If it is changed to 'largest by sales revenue', I think it would be reasonable to request a source both for that information and that such a title is an accepted standard by which to judge the size of an automaker.--Scottr76 03:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

First the newspaper link doe snot work and also GM will continue to state they are the largest just like Toyota may also do the same and until we get the absolute facts we will keep it like this.Sparrowman980 05:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

not sure which newspaper link you're talking about, unless it's the one already in the article, but i will repeat it here: Toyota slips behind GM in second quarter. I was using that merely as a supporting argument, i would not use that as my entire argument. I think the article in question already supplies the 'absolute facts' but i will agree to leave it as only sales volume until others give their opinions, mostly because i don't plan on spending all day every day reverting your edits, and i'm sure you don't want the same. I do, however, feel it is inaccurate and that omitting the standard by which 'largest' is determined lacks neutrality.--Scottr76 11:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

My opinion on this is:

The most accepted way of stating the sales figures is on an annual basis. This is what most companies use to brag. Monthly or quarterly are too dynamic and hence not quoted (generally). An analogy could be the list of companies by revenues (Fortune Global 500 for example), is drawn once a year and that is what companies refer, not a montly revenue ranking.

Therefore, ideally it would be best to leave it with the 2006 ranking, until the 2007 figures are out (for the whole year). Personally, understanding the feelings of those who wish to see Toyota on top, it is only a question of 6 more months, and if projections are right, it will happen anyway. The reason for leaving it as such, however, are clear: While it is likely, it isnt a certainty, and Wikipedia should state facts, not probables.

If we have to go by quarterly figures, then I recommend the current version, as it states the exact status: GM is the largest selling, during the last 3 months.AJ-India 12:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I would appreciate if the difference in opinion/interpretation can be discussed here.

As it has been, thank you for joining. As stated above, the problems with the following:

...the world's largest largest automaker by sales revenue as of the second quarter of 2007 [2] (ahead of Toyota Motor Corporation). Toyota has, however, outsold GM in the first six months of the year.

include:

1. largest is used twice. the article has been repeatedly reverted to this, which would make it seem that some may not really know what it is they are reverting to.

2. sales revenue does not equal sales volume or production volume, and is not stated in the article at all. So please, if you insist on reverting, keep sales VOLUME, which is what is supported by the facts provided.

3. Why are we including BOTH the most recent quarter and for the six months? if, as you argue, full year is what matters (and i would agree with that), we should include as much of this year as possible.

4. As I have stated above, I support including that they are the largest manufacturer by full-year production volume, which IS the standard that 'largest' is determined in the auto industry, as is stated in the article. Sparrowman980 disagreed, and took that portion out 'until we get the absolute facts', which i will argue we DO have, since it is stated in the article. I don't agree with that, but left it as is until we had more input and a consensus was formed.

5. Eliminating that Toyota had higher sales volume than GM for the first six months could be considered biased by some, and is certain to reverted, so to avoid that, it does no harm to include that information.--Scottr76 05:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, it is production volume, not revenue, sorry for not having noted that. Probably happened because I mearely modified an existing sentence, which was earlier citing another website.

Quite honestly, there isnt much I disagree with, in what you say. Like I stated earlier, the best option is to leave it at the last available annual data, which is for the year 2006. The article is afterall about General motors an automaker, not it's sales through the last few months. We can, elsewhere in the article, mention that the current trend indicates Toyota is going to overtake/ has already overtaken GM.

The repetition of largest, well, I myself didnt like it, but added it for the reason you mentioned (seeming bias against Toyota).AJ-India 07:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

GM-AvtoVAZ

Why GM-AvtoVaz isn't mentioned in the article? On the GM homepage it is also not mentioned. But at this page it exists. I'm very puzzled. --Kuemmjen 17:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Update

We need to know there profit there employees and the rest and we all know it all down. (Sparrowman980 05:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC))

for one, revenue was up in 2006 (207 billion from 194 billion. from what i can see, the numbers for net income are incorrect, and was actually a net loss of 2 billion (although according to their press release, adjusted net income was +2.2 billion), but was still up from the year before. number of employees is down, however i don't think that's the right usage for the {{loss}} arrow. i could be wrong.--Scottr76 05:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Now what we need is the end of the 2006 facts.(Sparrowman980 07:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC))

Chevrolet Volt under Electric Vehicles?

Is it considered too early by Wikipedia standards to insert mention of the Chevrolet Volt into the "Electric Car" section? I know that the vehicle is upcoming and not near production yet, but it could be mentioned as another effort by GM.

Corporate Restructuring Section: Sentence: The Federal Reserve in a move to quell the stock market

The Federal Reserve does not base its actions on the stock market. It did not increase interest rates to quell the stock market but to keep inflation risks contained. The interest rate increases may have quelled the stock market, but the Federal Reserve does not increase interest rates just to quell the stock market. If that were the case, then in 2007 the stock market should have been quelled from the Fed increasing rates from a low of 1% to its current 5.25%.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/pf/pf.htm

Update to the Board of Directors?

Hi, my name is Christopher Barger, and I work for General Motors' communications. No, I have never been here before; no, I have never edited anything on Wikipedia before; and no, I am not here to get into a debate with anyone over their edits or point of view. I just had an update.

One of my colleagues brought to my attention today that the list of our Board of Directors on this page is out of date. I have the most current list below. Given that there's been so much controversy over companies editing their own pages, and even so much cynicism about whether GM comms people have been spinning here, I figured that my making even such an inocuous edit as updating our BoD might be troublesome, so I am asking the community: Would it breach any protocols for me to update the BoD list? If not, could someone please make the edit to reflect the most current Board as listed below?

Thanks for your time and any guidance you have.

Christopher Barger General Motors Communications

GM Board of Directors (per 2007 proxy):

Percy N. Barnevik Erskine B. Bowles John H. Bryan Armando M. Codina Erroll B. Davis, Jr. George M.C. Fisher Karen Katen Kent Kresa Ellen J. Kullman Philip A. Laskawy Kathryn V. Marinello Eckhard Pfeiffer G. Richard Wagoner, Jr. Christopher Barger 18:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Chris - I updated the current board composition after verifying it on GM's website. Though I'm not convinced that the article needs to list every board member, but that's a separate matter. In the future, correcting very simple and uncontroversial factual stuff like this is OK and should not represent a conflict of interest. Please take a look at Wikipedia's conflict of interest guidelines for more information. Cheers, Skinwalker 19:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

net income

I feel that the annual net income, as taken from the annual report, is what should be used here, however, it seems a couple of editors feel it should be the quarterly results (and, i might add, neglect to even provide a source for their numbers). The rest of the companies in the Dow Jones Industrial Average use the annual net income, and I feel that GM should remain consistent with that. Is there any kind of consensus for what should be used?--Scottr76 20:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"Labor relations" section

I am very certain that the history of labour relations with General Motors extend long before the September 2007 strike, which is the only thing commented on it the section titled "Labor Relations". Should the section be expanded to include the history of GM labour relations? Should it be retitled "September 2007 strike"? Should the text be deleted and the reader be directed to the article on the 2007 General Motors strike? What should be done with that section? Respectfully, SamBlob 20:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Current/past lines

Just a quick note: Daewoo is still actively sold in US with brand new 2008 models available. They are no longer actively marketed but are still available for purchase at many larger Saab dealers (and some others). I've re-added it into the list of active lines.

As for Geo, they are now a sub-brand of Chevy. I agree that they are no longer their own line. That's why I marked it as a sub-brand. The Chevy Geo M, Chevy Geo Lt, and Chevy Geo ECO are all available for purchase from larger dealers. I've added the notation to the defunct list rather than the active list, I believe that should cause no controversy. Lostinlodos (talk) 22:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Daewoo is sold in the US doesn't really make it a North American brand - it's Korean. The distinction between active North American and overseas brands has become meaningless as various brands are sold in multiple markets. Daewoos and Holdens are sold as Chevrolet in some markets, Holdens as Buick and Daewoo, Daewoo as Holden etc etc etc. I suggest the two sections be amalgamated into a single list of current brands. And from a world POV, North America is "overseas" for most of us. Paul Fisher (talk) 04:14, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree with that. Unless there is some overwhelming reason stated not to make a single list each of active and defunct brands; I will make those changes tomorrow night (Sunday, 15 December 2007 CTC). I just took some issue with the revert that removed Daewoo from the active American list as it is currently an active, though unmarketed, brand; Daewoo cars are sold under the Daewoo brand name in the US. Lostinlodos (talk) 22:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Alert: GM is editing this article

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=56195585

Straight from Wikipedia scanner. The whois:

OrgName: General Motors Corporation OrgID: GMC-20 Address: 200 Renaissance Center City: Detroit StateProv: MI PostalCode: 48265 Country: US

NetRange: 198.208.0.0 - 198.208.255.255

This is totally absurd. I'm tagging this as POV immediately.

67.142.130.24 (talk) 11:06, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The mere fact that GM-owned IP ranges have edited this article doesn't make it POV. Besides, the edit you cited above doesn't reflect this article's current state. We use dispute tags to flag the current version, not past edits in the article's history. A quick scan through this article shows that perhaps some passages could use some slight NPOV help, but overall this article is balanced. I am removing the tag. szyslak 07:26, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Toyota moves up

Toyota has recently moved up in sales and is now the top seller. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.25.209 (talk) 22:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Toyota moves up (2)

== THE BIG MOVE Toyota has sold more motor vehicles than the leading company --71.10.25.209 (talk) 22:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)Christian Brown

Flexpower engines

In the biofuel section, there is nothing about Brazilian gasoline/ethanol Flexfuel engines. GM was one of the first carmakers to offer flexible-fuel engines in that country, and had ethanol-only engines in their lineup for decades. Part of that knowledge has been used by Saab in their Biopower engines. Can someone research a little more to expand that section? -- NaBUru38 (talk) 03:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Editing warring over 2007 results

In the interest of article stability and 3RR violations, is there a more agreeable way to include 2007 results and its implications? Since the article is meant to be encyclopedic, it seems the intro should discuss GM's overall, historical presence, with a reference to 2007's results, then include a section further down about the controversial results and the implications sourcing per WP:RS as this is a controversial/contested area. The WaPo article seem to be the most reliable source used so far; blogs, topix, GM annual reports are not considered WP:WP and used only after discussion and concensus. Flowanda | Talk 22:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Yet again, editors are making changes about current events that don't belong in an encyclopedic article. Am I just hanging out here by myself thinking that "multinational corporation" is exactly the way to describe, um, what's this company's name? Flowanda | Talk 07:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth I agree with you. Whether GM is the "biggest" depends entirely on how "big" is defined (volume of sales, revenue, volume of sales weighted by value of the vehicle, etc). Until we reach agreement on that, it's probably best to say that GM is "one of the biggest". Paul Fisher (talk) 09:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Once again, as per the New York Times, USA Today, Wards Auto World, Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal and a myriad of others, I am listing GM as the worlds largest automaker by sales for calendar year 2007. To the idiot who keeps changing this on the GM as well as the Toyota page, stop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.236.143.150 (talk) 08:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC) Since it seems like the more eyes we have on this article, the better chance we have of achieving consensus and stability, I made a request here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles#Eyes on General Motors. Respond here or there as you see fit. Thanks. Flowanda | Talk 03:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

First off: GM beat Toyota (9,369,000 vs. 9,366,000) vehicles in 2007; but I will admit that this week's news is not encouraging as far as them keeping their now razor thin lead. Secondly: GM is working on a number of new fronts for future growth; Electric Vehicles, Regular Hybrids, Plug-In Hybrids, Electonic Controls of nearly all systems, Gasoline and Diesel Engine Efficiency and Green Technology, and perhaps most significantly of all they are increasing their manufacturing presence in areas of the world with the most potential for future growth (such as China).JeepAssembler (talk) 01:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler (talk) 01:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Why not just say "GM claims to have sold more cars than anyone in 2007. However, some sources indicate that the title goes to Toyota, while others support GMs claim", and you can expand on that further in a section below. People don't need to make a big deal out of it. Just paraphrase the various sources. Nobody buys a car just because it's from the biggest company in the world whoever may have that title, so stop flag waiving and get over yourselves.--Analogue Kid (talk) 20:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no flag waving; just stating the facts; which Toyota itself admitted (I believe in the U.S.A. Today newspaper earlier this month). And it IS a big deal who is the World's Number One Automobile Manufacturer (and has been ever since sales of the Model T really took off in 1914; in fact; GM's displacing Ford for that title in 1931 was a source of consternation at the latter company; Edsel Ford wound up getting in debt to bankers, whom his father Henry hated). And in fact there are a lot of people who buy only based on brand loyalty for whatever reasons; being the biggest company was/is one of GM's sources of customer loyalty. Unfortunately, a lot people in the United States have become just as attached to import makes (including some very stupid people where I work) and then whine about the economy when good paying U.A.W. jobs are lost.JeepAssembler (talk) 21:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler (talk) 21:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

When there is controversy, especially controversy over a claim, the best thing to do is report the controversy, source the claims, and let the reader decide for themselves, rather than edit warring over which version is correct. Ultimately whether GM sold more vehicles or Toyota did in 2007 is not really that important in the grand scheme of things, compared to overall trends, regardless of the arguments advanced. ++Lar: t/c 15:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, which automaker made and sold more vehicles IS very important; If Toyota passes up G.M. in those regards it will be one anecdotal signal that world power is shifting from North America to East Asia; much as the mass production of the Model T Ford was one of the signs that world power was shifting from Western Europe to North Ameriaca a century ago.JeepAssembler (talk) 21:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler (talk) 21:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

We don't do anecdotes though. If you think it's important, fine. Find sources that support the claim and cite them, as well as ones that say it hasn't changed, or whatever, and note that there is controversy. Edit warring over it would really not be a good idea. ++Lar: t/c 03:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

You should do anecdotes; everyone should be concerned about the future and how it will effect their lives: Standard of Living, etc.JeepAssembler (talk) 22:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler (talk) 22:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

You may want to review our policy on what Wikipedia is not, particularly this section. The policies which require neutral point of view, and suggest that advocacy and original research are not appropriate here have worked well so far. There are lots of other places to editorialise, but this is not one of them, it's an encyclopedia. Readers come here for neutral, objective, verifiable information. ++Lar: t/c 05:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I gave objective and verifiable information about production, sales, technologies, and location of production (which can be checked in newspapers and magazines). But evidently some people took it as editorializing; even though I mentioned that things are changing very fast.JeepAssembler (talk) 21:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler (talk) 21:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The fact is it is a close call and there is some controversy over who is bigger. In cases like these it is best to say things like The New York Times (or GM) has called GM the worlds largest car maker." Then provide the source and let readers decide for themselves. We really should not be in the business of sorting out whos claims are more valid. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 21:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

JeepA: If you put neutral, verifiable, cited material in the article, I'll help support it, ping me if it gets reverted away (rather than edit warring). Just leave out the "things are changing fast" part, unless that too is cited, because that's synthesis. Daniel has it just so, report that some say X and some say Y and that there is controversy about whether X or Y is actually the case, and let the reader make up their own mind. ++Lar: t/c 12:38, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The edit-warring on the numbers continues. I had provided a recent source which seemed to support GM's small margin as top-seller [10]; this was promptly reverted. I've also noticed this source [11], which was provided earlier this month by another contributor. It, too, has been reverted in favor of sources which pre-date the more recent findings. Same edit war occurs on the Toyota page, also relying on information that might not be up-to-date. An explanation for the reverts would be welcome. JNW (talk) 23:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I've found this piece which supports the Toyota claim [12], and offers an interesting commentary from a high-level official at GM, which might make it a valid source, despite its blogness. Might not be the last word, but it suggests the value in discussion, especially on a matter where the math is close and subject to spin and interpretation. JNW (talk) 00:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Annual sales 3,000 vehicles ??

I guess you mean 3,000,000 but I don't think it is written in the link you provide in note. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.6.29.54 (talk) 08:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

GM - Auto Racing

Hi,

I am Ron Cox, retired Delco Electronics (Delphi) in 2001. I am completely new to Wikipedia, This is my first talk ever there. But with the help of my friend Phil Crosno in California, we proposed to add the history of our electronics development for GM racing engines to this site. Specifically I would like to see the history starting with the first engine management systems installed experimentally in the 1986-1987 seasons on Penski team cars through the Chevy V8s and Aurora engines.

Any thoughts on organization? Should this be a new section or part of the existing GM auto racing?

Ron, W9kfb

W9kfb (talk) 09:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Homgenous Charge Compression Ignition (HCCI)

There is an article in a respected magazine (Automotive Engineering, March 2008; pages 34 to 37) that discusses how General Motors and several other OEMs (Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen were also named in the article) are currently working on HCCI technology, convinced that it may be the next big thing for Internal Combustion Engines. They use gasoline but find a way to completely mix the air and fuel (hence the term homogenous); which causes the mixture to combust under pressure without a spark, theoretically combining gasoline's lower cost with diesel's greater efficiency. But without the SOx or NOx emissions resulting from the higher temperatures of the gas engine. Supposedly much of the technological infrastructure exists already (such as gasoline direct fuel injection).

But techical difficulties remain before cars can be produced with HCCI engines; it will take continuous computer monitoring of the pressure, concentration of fuel, and combustion chamber's internal temperature to control this inherently unstable process (Just slight variations in any of these parameters will cause no ignition at all). Finally, an HCCI engine will sometimes function as a normal Spark-Ignition engine; the control systems will also need to monitor and actuate this transition as well. JeepAssembler (talk) 21:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler (talk) 21:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

"Im ersten Quartal verkaufte General Motors nur noch rund 283.000 Fahrzeuge"

• http://www.faz.net/s/RubF3F7C1F630AE4F8D8326AC2A80BDBBDE/Doc~E2E992B1E29EF4AD9A055B4EA8F77089D~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

Deutsche Betriebswirtschaft

• Kerngeschäft eines Autoherstellers und Motorenherstellers ist die Produktion von Autos und Motoren.
• Kerngeschäft ist es, wenn 74.000 Industriearbeiter in den USA alle 50.000.000 Autos und alle 50.000.000 Motoren die weltweit 2008 gebaut werden zu bauen.
• Kerngeschäft ist es, diese 50.000.000 Motoren und Autos zu einem weltweiten Verkaufspreis von 100000 Dollarcent zu verkaufen.

Gm

General motors is the "second" largest Automaker after Toyota. Please refrain from posting your own personal opinions, I understand alot of americans are upset but facts are facts, and should be included in wikipedia. Dwilso 12:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Toyota vs GM at #1

I believe some discussion is warranted for this. As is currently referenced very early in the article, Toyota overtook GM for the first quarter of 2008 in global sales. However, is there a better way of wording it, and also, is it something that needs to be changed on the basis of a single quarter instead of year-by-year totals? Ayocee (talk) 23:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I've tried to make the situation absolutely clear with this revision, although I'm sure someone can put it a bit more eloquently than I have. For all sorts of reasons, annual figures are a much better metric for gauging size than quarterly, so I'd propose that GM should still be described as the world's largest automaker based on sales in 07. Gr1st (talk) 23:17, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Bargaining history, the UAW, and the Flint Sit down strike

I find it surprising that you can talk about GM without mentioning much about the history of its collective bargaining, and without ever mentioning the Flint Sit-Down Strike, which was a pivot point in his history and the history of organized labor. It's like there was no history, bargaining or otherwise, before 2007. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC) Stan

Canadian Auto Workers strike

IMO this article should at least mention the current CAW strike. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 23:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

They can't both be right.

This article claims GM is the 'world's largest automaker' which is exactly the same claim made in the article about Toyota. The Toyota claim is backed up by citations however, the GM claim isn't.

Incidentally the phrase 'world's largest' needs defining since it could mean anything for example, most employees, largest profit, largest turnover, most production plants, most vehicles produced, most vehicles sold, etc.

~~'BS detector'~~ 2nd July 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 (talk) 07:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Global sales leader

GM's perch atop the global sales leader charts ended earlier this year, and it is highly unlikely it will regain the spot in time to claim the title for calendar year 2008. It is deceptive to use terms like "has been" which imply "ongoing" under such circumstances, unless additional information about Toyota is provided. That information was removed, so I changed the phrasing to From 1911-2007, GM was the world's largest automaker as measured by global industry sales. If you change it back to "has been" please restore the information about Toyota. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 23:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

To say it is highly unlikely that GM will regain the spot is crystal-balling. Toyota outsold GM in Q1 2007, but GM ultimately won the year. The global sales for Q2 2008 aren't in yet, but in the U.S. GM handily (and unexpectedly) outsold Toyota (see here). Annual figures are preferred as they smooth out the volatility that occurs from quarter to quarter (seasonal effects, etc.) I don't think we should be making a blanket judgement that GM has been surpassed by Toyota on the basis of three month's numbers. Gr1st (talk) 11:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I would have made the same edits in July 2007 if I'd been monitoring the article. Here's an analogy: If a runner wins 5 New York Marathons in a row, and it's 30 minutes into today's race and he's in 2nd place, it's unfair to say "he's been winning the last 5 years" without disclosing he is behind in the current race. You can either say he's won the last 5 races, or that he's been winning but is not ahead in the current race, but you can't say "he's been winning" leaving the implied but unstated "and he's ahead in the current race" in the reader's mind. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 14:00, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Much happier with the lead as it stands now. Perhaps it might be an idea to create a section about the Toyota rivalry/race for #1 which treats the issue in depth. There's been no end of media coverage over the last few years. Gr1st (talk) 09:50, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

With reference to the current opening paragraph, what does 'global industry sales' mean? Does it mean the selling of 'global industries' or 'industry sales' around the globe? if it is the former, I don't believe GM has sold ANY 'global industries' and if it is the later, what is an 'industry sale'?

Wouldn't 'as measured by the number of vehicles sold annually' be less ambiguous?

The link that is provided (#7) actually states the opposite of the implied claim. If anyone actually bothers to read the article they will see that it says, "the slowdown in the United States market had led to a first-quarter sales decline that gave Toyota the early lead in this year’s global sales race".

~~BS detector~~ 7th July 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 (talk) 16:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Link #7 does not contradict the opening paragraph. The paragraph states "as of January 1, 2008, GM was the world's largest automaker as measured by global industry sales". The NYT article (ref. #7) states "Toyota outsold G.M. in the same period a year ago [i.e. Q1 2007] but ended the year [i.e. 2007] about 3,100 vehicles short of G.M." Of course, I'm sure that anyone who actually bothers to read the article will see that it says that. Gr1st (talk) 17:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

An "industry sale" is basically a sale anywhere around the globe in the relevant industry, in this case, car or truck sales. It would not include unrelated sales and I don't think it includes sales of accessories such as floor-mats that aren't considered sold as part of the car sale. I agree, the Toyota issue deserves more press but there was a near-edit-war last week over the text in the introduction, and the current version, which states how things were at the beginning of the year, seems to be an acceptable compromise. I'm willing to live with it, at least until the 2008 numbers come out early next year. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 17:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

GM was the annual leader in the most recent official statistics, and that is what should be stated in the article lead, not speculation that Toyota is about to overtake it. However, I think the lead should include something on the serious financial problems GM is facing, including large scale layoffs and the huge loss booked in the last fiscal year (I believe the largest loss booked by a company in a single year ever). TastyCakes (talk) 17:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Putting the date of the end of the reporting period, January 1, 2008, seems to be the consensus solution to an otherwise edit-war-launching problem. If you want to add information to the lead that hasn't been the subject of discussion already, you can be bold and do so, or propose your wording here for discussion if you think it's likely to be controversial. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 17:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that anything which refers to either GM or Toyota as currently No.1 will almost certainly be changed to No.2 by an anonymous IP within days. If you can stomach six months of reversion after reversion, then by all means go for it. Gr1st (talk) 19:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Well if that's the case, maybe the article needs semi-protection... TastyCakes (talk) 20:51, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes Gr1st I agree, that is because ‘currently number 1’ doesn’t mean anything. Just like ‘global industry sales’ it could mean almost anything. Unless a clearly defined phrase is used, readers will infer whatever they want.

As I suggested earlier, 'as measured by the number of vehicles sold annually' would end the confusion over ‘annual sales’ versus ‘last quarter’ sales. The inclusion of the word ‘vehicle’ is important because both GM and Toyota sell many other things besides vehicles. For all we know ‘industry sales’ could include snacks from vending machines in GM showrooms.

~~'BS detector'~~ 10th July 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 (talk) 01:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

LS2 Engine

The LS2 engine is common for most GM vehicles. Its used in a corvette, and many other vehicles such as trucks and suburbans. There vary pawerful engines, and there pritey reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Infomantoday (talk • contribs) 01:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

wanna know franchising

What are the benefits of franchising in General Motors

GM's $15.5 Billion Loss (2Q 2008)Is Third-Biggest in a Century! (and Wikipedia is mum)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=au.TL_ofjGuM&refer=home

GM's $15.5 Billion Loss (2Q 2008)Is Third-Biggest in a Century and Wikipedia is mum! What a fine encylopedia !!!

Grüsse aus Deutschland. 79.210.122.160 (talk) 22:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

This is an article that was published today. Wikipedia is not a news source of current events, and there's no evidence any info was added or removed. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, whether you have a name or a number. Have at it. Seriously. It's the edits that matter. Flowanda | Talk 22:15, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Flowanda, you say Wikipedia is not a news source. Ok, then I have the following question to you : The article states that this is the third-biggest loss in a century. So, the biggest and the second-biggest losses apparently did not happen yesterday or last week; they apparently happend some time ago within the last century. They are therefore not news! And as biggest and second-biggest losses in a century they are clearly significant events. So, please, where are they reported in Wikipedia? Grüsse aus Deutschland.79.210.108.116 (talk) 14:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I've noted the above development. Since Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia entirely reliant on contributions by unpaid volunteers, in future your energies might be better spent adding information yourself instead of making sarky comments about its absence (in this case only a few hours after the news broke). We can always do with more editors, so be bold and off you go. Gr1st (talk) 15:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Where do they keep getting this money to lose? Comradeash (talk) 00:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Model T 2.0?

Who introduced planned obsolescence into production? I'm thinking it was Harley Earl, but... Add it here, here, & here, if you can name him. Thanks. (We can safely rule out Henry...) TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 21:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Trouble with the article

I just wanted to let the editors of this page know that I had an editor ask for help concerning the article, seen here and here. Feel free to take these comments for what they are. Of course, there is always trouble with this sort of thing, and having not read the article I cant make an opinion for myself, but usually if someone finds something wrong with an article, then there usually is something wrong :/ Thanks for your time and any improvements you all can make! :) « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 04:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

The editor also added the disputed neutrality template, which I think is a good idea for now. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 04:36, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree, this article has considerable negative info throughout including several statements regarding their dire financial situation. If there are suggestions regarding something specifically negative that should be added than that would be fine, but a general and incorrect statement "this article has nothing negative in it" can't be justification for a tag. --Leivick (talk) 06:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

computer and GM

I know that GM was the first company that run the first oprating system on IBM computer and now I want to know what happened to GM suddenly changed from computer doing to making cars? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.191.168.11 (talk) 10:28, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

What? GM was never a computer company... TastyCakes (talk) 19:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

2008 Canadian Auto Workers bargaining

Why do we even have this section? Certainly it doesn't need expanding. For an article on a hundred-year old company - one of the largest companies in the world, this incident seems to minor to warrant much article space. Rmhermen (talk) 22:07, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm yeah it doesn't seem to say anything particularly important. In fact maybe all of the labour stuff could be rolled into one or two paragraphs concerning all strikes in the company's history? Can't be that many, can it? If it is, perhaps it warrants a small article of its own. TastyCakes (talk) 18:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The credit crunch.

It apears GM is going sadly bancrupt now [[13]] [[14]] --86.29.249.32 (talk) 10:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)