Talk:United States

Please consider reading the frequently asked questions for this article before asking any questions on this talk page.

Current population (est.): 338,082,000 as of July 15, 2024. The USCB projects 439 million by 2050

United States language should be changed to English

I believe the language should be changed to English instead none a federal level since most states' nation language is English and everyone speaks English its just kinda obvious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dstarsbravo (talk • contribs) 02:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Except this isn't about the states, this is about the country, and officially the country has no language. --Golbez (talk) 03:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Covered by "National language". It's just not also the official language (since there isn't one). --Cybercobra (talk) 04:41, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, it seriously helps your case if you post in something mildly resembling English when talking about the use of the language in the United States. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 05:26, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

the point not the person please.[[Slatersteven (talk) 14:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)]]

I'd refer to the above thread.Prussian725 (talk) 17:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

America redirecting to the United States?

Why wikipeda as a neutral organization redirects America to the United States?

As we all know America is the name of the continent that extends from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego in South America. It would be more acurate to point America to the continent article, which by the way is America and not Americas (plural). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.108.192.50 (talk) 23:21, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Why does it have to be a matter of "neutrality?" Your continental assertion is also false, there is not continent of "America," and from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego there are two continents, neither called just "America." There is North America, and South America, but there is no continent called just "America." --OuroborosCobra (talk) 23:27, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Further, in English speaking countries it is overwhelmingly likely that if someone says "America" they mean the USA. I understand this is different in many South American countries, and I expect the Spanish (and perhaps Portuguese) Wikipedias differ from English Wikipedia on this particular redirect. Redirects in Wikipedia are decided based on what the user is probably looking for. 99% of users on English Wikipedia are probably looking for the USA when they type in America, so it would be silly to redirect it somewhere else. This is similar to the policy of redirecting or naming articles about cities according to which the reader is most likely to be looking for, for example London refers to the city in England, rather than all the others. TastyCakes (talk) 23:54, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, just noticing, America doesn't redirect to "United States" to begin with. So what is this all about? --OuroborosCobra (talk) 00:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Interesting, who divided America into south and north? what about central? America keeps being a single continent as Asia, Europe or Africa are single continents, no one divides south-east Asia or east Europe into other continents. There are references to America being a sigle continent as early as 1500s. Thanks! Interesting conversation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.108.192.50 (talk) 15:52, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

This isn't really the place to discuss why the continental devisions are the way they are, but if you want to talk about arbitrary decisions that way, I'd think you'd be wondering why Europe and Asia aren't one continent. After all, they are on the same big landmass, something that cannot be said nearly as much about North and South America. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 17:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as how they are seperated by a canal in the country of Panama. By the way, how've you been EU 100%?Prussian725 (talk) 17:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

This guy's English is way better than EU100%'s ;). Also, his IP says he's from the Philippines, EU was apparently in Italy. TastyCakes (talk) 23:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

USA is NOT AMERICA DAMN IT. AMERICA IS A CONTINENT, USA A COUNTRY... AMERICANS ARE ALL THOSE WHO LIVE IN THE AMERICAN CONTINENT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.68.147.188 (talk) 22:59, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

You are on English Wikipedia. English-speaking countries teach two continents: North America and South America. There is no continent named "America" to native speakers of the English language. Omnibus (talk) 06:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. I am Canadian and would never call myself American. I doubt any English speaking person would think very differently. Please do not use all cap locks in your messages, and read the page on civility to avoid causing arguments and being disruptive. TastyCakes (talk) 23:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention, as stated above, there is no continent named just "America" --OuroborosCobra (talk) 01:27, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Right, the joint term for North and South America is "the Americas", and indeed Americas is an article about the continents and does NOT redirect here. And American is a disambiguation article rather than a redirect, so the IP's arguments are completely unfounded. --Cybercobra (talk) 07:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I still disagree, regardless if this is english or other wikipedia when the continent was named in honor of Amerigo Vespucci it was named as a single entity and was not separated as mentioned above.

Barak Obama the First "African-American" President

First, Barak Obama is half-African American or half-black, so it cannot be said he is the "first 'African-American'" to hold the office.

Second, other U.S. presidents have had "African-American" or "black" lineage or ancestry (Jefferson, Harding, Coolidge, Jackson, Lincoln, and Eisenhower). None of these were 100% African-American (or black); so there were other so-called "African-American" presidents before Barak Obama, if one uses the term "African-American" to mean a person with some African-American lineage or ancestry.

The following article needs to be updated with this correction, as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

Sources:

Daniel E. Pearson, "Lincolniana Bibliotheca 1993," http://webpages.charter.net/lincolnbooks/1993Bibliography.html

KCTCS Diversity Programs, "The History of Black History," http://www.kctcs.net/diversityprograms/stolenlegacy.htm

Harding said he could not deny that he had a black ancestor. The "accusation" had come up in the 1920 presidential election.

Sources: Leroy Vaughn, "5 Black Presidents," http://www.geocities.com/cureworks1/5blkpres.htm

Grant Segall, "Magicians' roots reach deep into Ohio," Cleveland Plain Dealer, 2 July 2004, http://www.cleveland.com/ohio/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1088760904294480.xml and discussions on soc.culture.african-american newsgroup —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hotdjdave (talk • contribs) 19:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC) Hotdjdave (talk) 20:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Did you really just use a Geocities page as a cited source? Omnibus (talk) 01:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Did those other presidents really have black ancestors? That's interesting, I'd never heard that before. However, it seems clear that Obama is the first president to be considered "black" by pretty much everybody. If you read the article on African Americans it makes it clear that people that are half white are still often considered African American. TastyCakes (talk) 20:34, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, on the frequently asked questions on the Obama talk page it says:

• Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial," "mixed," "Kenyan-American," "mulatto," "quadroon", etc.)?

• A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. Thus we use this term in the introduction. Keep in mind, many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American." Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body.

TastyCakes (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it is true that other presidents had claims they had black heritage, but it is not true that a) any of these claims were verified and b) any of these presidents said they had black heritage. So, Obama is, indeed the first president to self-identify himself as having black heritage, and to have that claim readily acknowledged. The links above have a lot of innuendo, for example others, like political rivals, suggesting he had this heritage and reports of Jefferson hunting down his mother's letters etc. But this is not "evidence" at all. Canada Jack (talk) 20:47, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Image under education section

Apparently I have to start this discussion again. UVA is not the university/college that should be representing the United States' education system. Please read the previous threads on this. In addition the current image has some major image deficiencies (distortion, tilted, lighting). Yes, a public school should represent US education, but UVA is way too arbitrary. Yes, world heritage site is interesting and notable, but that doesn't mean that ppl know what UVA is. Berkeley is world-renouned and this article really should be geared to be universal, not just made for Americans. The Berkeley image is preferable: it covers much of the campus. The current UVA image isn't ven centered. Rule of thirds is not great for a building. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 17:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

You've provided no evidence that depicting UVA is any more "arbitrary" than depicting UC-Berkeley. UVA is historically one of the most important U.S. public universities; currently, it is the most preferred public university in the entire country (yes, ahead of Berkeley). What you observe about the Berkeley image—that "it covers much of the campus"—is exactly what makes it a poorer illustration than the Virginia image. The latter allows the viewer to focus on a single (architecturally distinctive) structure. The former is, from a compositional standpoint, a mess.—DCGeist (talk) 18:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

As an outsider, I'd say Berkley is marginally more famous than UVA, I'd at least heard of Berkley before living in the states but had no real insight into what it was. If I were to pick a public university to represent the system, Berkley or another school in one of the big university networks seems like a good idea. While I'm sure UVA is a great school, and it is undoubtedly steeped in history and architecture, I think schools like UC Berkley currently are more representative of the post secondary education system and have a much bigger "footprint" in the country's economy (and, arguably, culture). That said I do like the UVA picture and it does look "collegy". Also, the section on education seems to hardly mention post secondary schooling. Shouldn't the States' huge presence on the world stage be mentioned here, both by public and private universities? It is much shorter than the section in the UK's article. TastyCakes (talk) 19:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Wadester16 said in his edit to remove the image, "who has even heard of UVA?". Either he's being facetious, has spent his academic career under a rock, or has some sort of axe to grind. The United Nations and their cultural arm have not only heard of U-Va., they have opted to protect its preservation indefinitely. They have not lent the same protection to UC-Berkeley. The only U.S. government funded study of prestigious American universities has shown that high-achieving students from across the country tend to choose U-Va. over UC-Berkeley if accepted to both... including even those students who live on the west coast! Indeed even in Berkeley, where I have spent a good deal of my life, U-Va. is very highly regarded. Furthermore, the image used here is more about a specific image than a school, and the U-Va. image is, as DCGeist said, far superior (and also, as TastyCakes put it, more "collegy"). Not to mention probably the best reason the image is a superior representation of U.S. higher education: the number of buildings on college campuses across the country, including very prominent ones at MIT and Duke, that were inspired by or based on the U-Va. Rotunda pictured. The American Institute of Architects called it "the proudest achievement of American architecture in the past 200 years" and The New York Times in the late 1800s called it "the most monumental architectural project that had or has yet been conceived in this century". The Rotunda and Lawn pictured are unequaled icons within U.S. higher education, and this specific image of them is superb. Ben Lunsford (talk) 11:39, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll respond more thoroughly later, but I need to say that the image itself is not of great quality. Like I said, it's tilted, distorted, and its lighting is less than optimal (on such a re-photographable location, there is absolutely no need for shadow, especially when the sun beats directly on the building at about 1:00pm, based on its orientation on campus). I'm also not a fan of winter images representing a location in general, but I'm stronly opposed to this including snow; it misrepresents the location and almost implies that it snows regularly in Charlottesville, when in fact, the average high, monthly temperature never goes below freezing.

Ideally, every image used on this page should be featured, just because of its viewership and easy of use for representative images. Though I admit that's unreasonable. And yes, I was being hyperbolic with that edit summary. But I do mean it in an international sense... if you asked a random... ohhh... I'll say Pakistani, in their home country if they ever heard of either, I would bet that Berkeley would be the one. I'm not saying it has to be Berkeley; I just strongly disagree with it being UVA. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 14:09, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

1) Shadows. Not only will taking photographs at 1:00pm lead to washed out skies and washed out details... this is probably the absolute worst time to take a photograph of a building... but the absence of all shadowing on a building makes for a very flat, boring image. This one is taken at the ideal time, early morning, for a photo with snap. The image of Jefferson's Rotunda has that snap and is appealing... and actually with smaller shadow effects than, say, the image above it on the very same page.

2) Distortion and tilting. Not altogether bad in this image. Easily Photoshopped in about 10 minutes if you would like to provide an "improved version". You can help us here if it bothers you. The image is free to "fix".

3) Winter images. College is in regular session during winter. It's almost never in regular session during summer. That can, and perhaps should, be portrayed. The light snow with even grass showing through is fairly typical for that climate during the schoolyear. There is no problem at all with winter images, as long as all the photographs on the page aren't from just one season. They're not.

Overall, I can't find any significant problem with the specific image. It's a very good image, by virtually all accounts. It's got loads of eye appeal.

As far as subject, I feel it would be hard to find a structure with more relevancy to U.S. Higher Education (i.e., not relevancy to "world subjective opinion about U.S. Higher Education", or, "what 100 random Pakistanis might have heard about U.S. Higher Education")... than Jefferson's Rotunda... it's been an inspiration for many other collegiate structures across the country, and has basically been called the most important collegiate structure in history (or something to that effect, see above) by the AIA and The New York Times, etc. And I agree with you in one area: in a country where 4/5ths of college students attend publics, the image should be of a significant public structure. I also agree with DCGeist wholeheartedly: the image should "allow the viewer to focus on a single (architecturally distinctive) structure." Ben Lunsford (talk) 00:41, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

← My reasons for not using UVA or this image as the representative of US education:

1. Its international notoriety: While it may be popular with American students, this article, per NPOV, should give the best universal overview possible. I interpret this to mean give an example that both American and international visitors are likely to know.
2. Images on this page should be featured: After a quick glance, it seems the only featured picture of an American public college/university is this one (ironically) of Berkeley. Unfortunately it does not represent a college campus to the outside viewer. But ideally, eventually this article will contain only featured images. Maybe this image of the Smithsonian Castle could work? Right now the image represents the higher education of the States, with no mention of primary and secondary school (for which there's an entire federal government department - yet none for higher education specifically). Maybe the Smithsonian would be a better general view of education in the States?
3. Season: I can't disagree that college is in session during winter, but it's also in session for all of fall and spring, when leaves are on the trees and there's typically no snow (again, snow is not common in Charlottesville). Compositionally I really dislike the very small amount of snow; I'd rather see all snow or no snow (but preferably no snow, and add some green leaves on the trees).
4. Image issues: The distortion isn't absolutely terrible, but it's enough to be annoying to the eye. The staircase and elevated walkway on each side look like the inflection point of a parabola and it's über annoying. I would gladly edit it, but I've never used Photoshop a day in my life.
5. Time of day: The BBC article you reference is interesting, but still only opinion. Morning light can be extremely harsh, as in this image. This image was taken at roughly 3pm, and it has very pleasing lighting. Though that could be because of some cloud cover. That makes me think that the image in question could use some cloud cover to kill the harsh lighting on the top right of the dome. I'll admit, though, that at least this image is better than its predecessor, by a lot.
6. Others: I have to disagree with you that "The Rotunda and Lawn pictured are unequaled icons within U.S. higher education." Many private schools are better known that this, including vistas on their campuses: MIT, Princeton, Columbia, and even Washington University; I'm not saying replace with a private university, I'm just saying that statement is extremely misleading at best. Unfortunately, your AIA reference is unsourced and no mention is made of that comment in the rotunda's article. I assume you're not referring to this since UVA is not on the list (though they do mention Fisher Fine Arts Library, Legal Research Building, U of Michigan, and Battle Hall at U of Texas (interestingly, Monticello got the nod, but not the Rotunda). In addition, your NYT reference is more than 100 yrs old and obviously an opinion. Also, the Rotunda, along with all other buildings that might be based loosely on its design, are all derivatives of the pantheon. You can't just give credit to the Rotunda when the pantheon is the ultimate source of inspiration.
7. Bias to the east: Zoom out on the article and see where all the images are from. Seven of those 24 are not from the east coast of the lower 48. Now granted the US was settle on the east coast and has much more history than it has in the rest of the country, but some of these photos are incidental of location. Featuring an east-coast university adds to the bias. Granted DC will obviously be more prominent than most US locations in these images, but this list offers more of a reason to represent other parts of the nation. #17 is of LA only because LA is second largest in population. #23 is location-independent; i.e. you can find a replacement anywhere in suburban America. In addition, those with ^† are ones that I plan on replacing eventually (hopefully soon). #17 makes me cringe because of the utility wires and the fact that it's Christmas (specific to a time; it should be non-timely, if that makes sense); also, it's during winter :-). And #23 is terrible mainly because of the lighting. I've been going thru Commons looking for replacements, but so far no go. I will propose replacements when I think I find some good candidates. I would suggest replacing #20 if it weren't so irreplaceable. Anyway, here's the list of images specific to an area:
   1. Montana
   2. Alaska
   3. Plymouth
   4. Pilly
   5. Gettysburg
   6. Ellis Island
   7. South Dakota
   8. Washington, D.C
   9. New York City
   10. DC
   11. DC
   12. DC
   13. DC
   14. Argentina (USS Ronald Reagan)
   15. NYC
   16. NYC
   17. LA
   18. North Carolina^†
   19. Virginia
   20. Texas^†
   21. Hollywood
   22. Broadway
   23. California^†
   24. Texas

So that's what I have to say; again, it doesn't have to be Berkeley. It just shouldn't be UVA. Also, just so you know, I have no connection to either institutions. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 04:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

1. Again, the purpose is to provide the best overview of the actual topic, not "the global subjective opinion of the topic" or "what 100 Pakistanis might have heard about the topic". I dare say that a lot of international readers would have thought Americans generally attended expensive private colleges not funded by the government if they hadn't read the article and learned of the reality. That's part of the American "notoriety" in my experience and it is obviously false.
   • What I'm saying is this should represent the world view of the topic, just like every other article on WP should. I agree that most foreigners would think we typically go private, which is why I originally suggested an image of Harvard. But I compromised last time to a public institution, based on the 80% rate. I think you're misunderstanding NPOV. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 16:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
     • You suggested Harvard because most foreigners would think we go private? Once again, I don't think you're getting my point here... we're not striving to reinforce pre-conceived incorrect notions of American higher education. That's the last thing we would want to do here. Ben Lunsford (talk) 17:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
       • As I said previously, I was surprised to find out about the 80% value at the time. That's why I agreed to a public university/college. I still think Harvard/Princeton/Yale better represent the overall view of the perception of US higher education, but that figure can't be argued with. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 18:10, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
2. Not really. Only 5 out of 33 images (15%) on this page are featured.
   • I think you missed my point. I suggested possibly replacing any education image with that of the Smithsonian. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 16:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
     • 15% are featured, so obviously not the criteria used here. That image you suggested hardly represents the typical American educational experience being that it's an administrative building at the Smithsonian. Frankly, if you are concerned with "east coast bias" I find it surprising you would suggest an administrative building in Washington, DC. ;) Ben Lunsford (talk) 17:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
       • I still don't understand what you mean by "so obviously not the criteria used here." But think about the fact that the section is lacking any image regarding primary and secondary public education in the United States. Again, there's an entire federal government department for the cause. The Smithsonian could be a compromise; you didn't actually respond to that point. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 18:10, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
         • I did respond to the "Smithsonian compromise"... it doesn't in any way represent the experience of U.S. Higher Education in this country. Jefferson's Rotunda is a structure at a public university, and one deemed important by international authorities (e.g. the AIA calling the combination of it, the Lawn, and Monticello our "proudest American architectural achievement," or the United Nations' cultural arm protecting the Rotunda's preservation with foreign dollars if hell ever breaks loose in this country). Ben Lunsford (talk) 18:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
           • You said you don't like it because it's an administrative building, because it's in DC, and because it doesn't represent US higher ed. As I said below, what about US "lower" ed? That's why this is a compromise. And this is much more of a compromise than considering the systemic bias of east-coast image; that was more an observation, which is why I listed last in my numerical list here (i.e. least important). ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 19:23, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
             • How would this administrative building even represent what you call "lower" education at all? It bears little resemblance to any institution (elementary, middle, high school, or college) that any of us have ever attended and is more an administrative federal office building than anything else. Ben Lunsford (talk) 20:17, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
               • You're missing my point again. I'm saying it represents none of those explicitly (not higher education, not lower education). It represents education in general, which, again is why it is a compromise. It's a research institution, a collection of museums, it owns/runs a zoo, and has infrastructure in multiple locations in the United States (and it's public!), and its well known and respected abroad. And the Castle itself may be partly administrative, but it is also the information center of the Smithsonian on the National Mall. It is a museum in itself, housing many items on display (including the crypt of James Smithson). It is essentially the starting point for new and veteran visitors to "the Smithsonian" (when used this way, the term represents the entire collection of museums on the National Mall; though typically the term specifically means "the Castle"). And since you're very interested in the architect of the Rotunda, the architect of the Smithsonian Castle was James Renwick, Jr., who was noted as "one of the most successful American architects of his time," by The Encyclopedia of American Architecture, having also designed St. Patrick's Cathedral, New York and the New York Stock Exchange building.
                 • What is in the actual image here? An administrative federal office building. Not the Natural History Museum, which is by far the most frequently visited building at the Smithsonian. I'm no critic of the Smithsonian, I absolutely love going to the Natural History Museum every single time I am in the area for more than a couple days. But this specific image is of a specific structure, which happens to be... an administrative federal office building. Not a college, not a school... an office building. That's my point here. Ben Lunsford (talk) 21:41, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
                   • It's the gateway to the Smithsonian and easily the most recognizable structure in the entire Institution. Describing it as "an administrative federal office building" is far from fair. It's a legitimate museum (granted it's small) and the starting point for any new visitor. Have you ever been in there? It's extremely interesting; covers much of the Smithsonian's history, etc. It is built so that it sticks out from the line of other museums on Independence Avenue (along Jefferson Dr.), making it extremely prominent on the National Mall. And you're completely wrong about the Natural History Museum; the Air and Space Museum has almost a quarter more yearly visitors than Natural History, and that doesn't count the Udvar-Hazy Center. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 22:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
                     • I have... and there wasn't much to it. The great majority of the building is administrative offices, that's why I have referred to it as a federal administrative office building. Didn't know Air and Space was above Natural History... interesting. But neither of those is in this particular photo.  ;) Ben Lunsford (talk) 22:24, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
                       • I would make a wager that more people step foot into the Castle than Air & Space. Unfortunately I don't know where I would find that stat. But showing either of those images is too specific and biased. The castle is the general representative of the Institution. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 22:28, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
3. Disagree for reasons already stated.
4. I don't even hardly notice it. It's not extreme or unpleasing to the eye.
   • I'm sorry to say that your eyes seem to be misguiding you then. It is the first thing that stands out to me every time I look at this image. It literally makes me cringe. As an amateur photographer yourself, I would think this would bother you as well. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 16:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
     • You are literally the only observer who has said this makes you cringe. It's not the first, second, or fifth thing that I notice about the image. Ben Lunsford (talk) 17:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
       • And you are literally the only user to praise this image on its technical merits, regardless of its deficiencies. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 18:10, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
         • I produced a cited BBC article about the technical merits of morning light photographs, of which this image is an example. And other users have praised this specific image's aesthetic values, if not the technical precision. However, I will try to work on the tilt and distortion this weekend... I'm not as skilled at Photoshopping as some other people, but I'll see what I can do to satisfy you a little more here. Ben Lunsford (talk) 18:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
5. The BBC article is opinion, of a professional structure photographer, but so is yours... of a non-professional.  ;) The shadows in the Jefferson's Rotunda pic are not particularly harsh.
   • If I were to go with UVA, the lighting should be more like this. Of much higher quality, obviously, but with minimal shadow. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 16:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
     • I don't know, we just have very different taste in the aesthetic values of these two photographs of the same subject (my favored lighting vs. your favored lighting). The high noon one just seems so flat and uninteresting to me. And the entire building behind the columns is lost in shadows in your favored lighting, something I'm surprised isn't a problem to you. Ben Lunsford (talk) 17:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
       • Agree to disagree. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 18:10, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
6. The AIA reference is sourced on the University of Virginia article. The source is the AIA Journal issue 65 (July 1976), p. 91. The exact quote was that Jefferson's Rotunda and Lawn surrounding it is "the proudest achievement of American architecture in the past 200 years." As you know, the American Institute of Architects is a respected authority on American architecture. And as you mentioned, all the other comparable examples are at private institutions, not public ones... in a country where a huge majority of college students attend publics. Yes, Jefferson did borrow from ancient architecture, but he was the first to design in that style for some 1,600 years. And it's not like it was an exact replica, there was no brick on the original pantheon... the entire Rotunda is brick... he made it his own. Whether or not you like giving Thomas Jefferson any credit for his architecture, the AIA certainly does and they are an authority on this subject.
   • Yes, I respect that AIA, but much of what you said here is trivial and off-topic. If the Rotunda and lawn are so notable, why did they not end up on AIA's list? If Americans think so highly of the place, where is UVA? But Americans did think that a building from U Texas and U Michigan deserved to be on the list, both public universities. I give Jefferson his due credit, but the pantheon's own article mentions the Duomo as using it as inspiration, almost 400 years before the Rotunda. Additionally, St. Alexander's Church was begun a full 4 years before the Rotunda, so Jefferson apparently wasn't that original. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 16:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
     • The quote is from the AIA itself, its own opinion article in an issue to celebrate the U.S. Bicentennial. "The list" is not a survey of AIA architects of the best structures... it's a list of randomly surveyed people off the street of their "favorite" structures. So it's not surprising that the favorites include only two public university structures... and just happen to be from the two public universities with more alumni than any others (or at least 2 of the top 4 or so... I think Ohio State may have nudged in there lately). About the church thing, Jefferson had been planning the campus since 1800 or so... funding issues and being President of the United States delayed construction some 20 years. I doubt anyone in Warsaw was privy to the plans however, so it is an interesting co-evolution. Ben Lunsford (talk) 17:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
       • Actually the list is a survey of AIA architects. Read closely and you will see that 2500 architects were first asked to provide 250 structures for Americans to choose from. So the source is actually AIA and its members. See the site itself and click "About this exhibit" for more info. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 18:10, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
         • I think the main problem here is that most architects associate Monticello and Jefferson's Rotunda together. They are combined in the United Nations protection and definition of its World Heritage Site. To include both Monticello and the Rotunda as separate entities on the list would be a bit redundant and non-diverse for a list of only 250. To combine them as the UN does would be a bit confusing for the Internet-voting public? So I'll defer here to what the AIA itself has published and not an Internet survey. If in doubt about the message received from the AIA, are you willing to consider as a second authority the United Nations' education and science arm and their opinion about which collegiate structures are worthy of protection in this country? Ben Lunsford (talk) 18:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
7. A large proportion of the population lives "back east", and the largest cities as well as the capital are on the east coast, so that probably has something to do with it.
   • And I'm saying we should try to work against systemic bias. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 16:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
     • In this case, I think UC Berkeley would be the only obvious non-eastern choice and having spent time at UCB I can't think of a comparable structure on the campus that is relevant to so many other campuses (i.e. nothing at Berkeley has been "copied" at a bunch of other public universities, whereas the combination of Jefferson's Rotunda and Lawn area was reproduced again and again and again at numerous schools constructed elsewhere, not just in the United States but globally... even in China.) Ben Lunsford (talk) 17:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
       • Again, you can't just credit this building when the Rotunda itself was based on the Pantheon. The Rotunda, as you said, is brick. Most of the supposed "imitators" are not. They are rock or concrete, just like the Pantheon. See MIT and Columbia. The example in China makes no reference of the Rotunda, only Jeffersonian architecture. In all honesty, the Grand Auditorium looks more like Monticello. Grawemeyer Hall at Louisville is a reasonable assertion, but even the caption says it's based on the Pantheon. The only legitimate copy I could agree with is Dallas Hall at SMU. I'm not all that impressed. While Strather Tower may not be copied elsewhere, it is a distinctive architectural addition to the campus, and could easily be called its "icon". The two universities I have attended don't have "icons" so I would say the fact that it has one is somewhat notable. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 18:10, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
         • Sather Tower.  :) My main issue with considering the Campanile is that it's a clock tower. That's basically its entire function. There's no lawn to go with it, there's no "academical village" where the top students live, etc. Jefferson's Rotunda is a meeting place for numerous student functions and activities... additionally, from an aesthetic viewpoint, the Sather Tower has always looked quite European to me... whereas Jefferson's Rotunda is distinctly American. One need only look at the image above to see the Jeffersonian red brick and columns has since become a key part of our U.S. architectural heritage. I don't think Sather Tower could ever be a candidate to win similar praise or protection from the AIA and UNESCO. Ben Lunsford (talk) 18:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
           • How can the Rotunda be "distinctly American" when it's based on a Roman structure and was conceived only a bit less than two decades after America even existed as a nation? By definition, most notable collegiate buildings would look European since most notable structures are at least 100 yrs old and the US population was still largely European in decent. Many older buildings on college campuses in the east are meant to look like Oxford or Cambridge, so as to gain respect from viewers. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 19:23, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
             • It's distinctly American because you can look at the red bricks and columns and immediately identify it as an American building, and a prime example of Jeffersonian architecture. Jefferson has often been recognized by various architectural authorities as the first great American architect, as well as the author of the U.S. Declaration of Independence. How could that style get any more American? Ben Lunsford (talk) 20:17, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Ben Lunsford (talk) 16:10, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Overall, I'm not convinced by these arguments. I still hold that UVA is not a great representation of US higher education and I'm unhappy that US primary and secondary education is not represented here at all (which is why I suggested the Smithsonian, a leading distinctly American educational institution). Don't forget, a typical American student goes through twelve years of schooling before higher education, meaning it makes up a much greater and more distinct part of one's life (if you're spending 12 years in college/graduate school, you are in an extremely small minority). Also, the image used is not of great technical quality for the reasons outlined above and while there are other poor-quality photographs in this article, they will hopefully be removed and replaced soon and should not weigh on this image. I'm putting in for a Request for Comment due to my strong feelings against this image. We'll see what other members of the wiki have to say. Should they not agree with me, I'll drop it. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 19:23, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Source for 'Unlike in all other developed countries, health care in the United States is not universal.'

'health care in the United States is not universal' is explained adequately with sources later in the paragraph. However, is it possible to find a source for the phrase 'Unlike in all other developed countries,'? It feels like a sweeping generalization, and begs definition of a 'developed country'. 173.24.45.109 (talk) 04:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Perhaps "all other G8" or "OECD" countries? TastyCakes (talk) 16:13, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Except I'm not sure if it's true when put like that - does Mexico have universal health care? Does Russia? TastyCakes (talk) 16:16, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Russia does, and Mexico has a set plan for implementing one within 2 years. I think it would be accurate to say "unlike most of the developed world." I know we shy away from weasel words like "most," but in this case it seems to be fairly accurate. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 18:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I'd go with "unlike the other seven countries of the G8". It's very specific and easily shown. Ben Lunsford (talk) 01:04, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Canada, all of Europe, Australia, New Zealand and Singapore all have universal health care (organised in various ways), so it does seem relevant to make a statement that specifies this. Without wanting to start an argument over "developed" or insult anyone, I'm not sure readers would include Mexico under the banner of "developed". So, which developed countries outside the U.S. don't have universal health care? Maybe there is no need for the weasel word "most" because the fact is that "all other" developed countries have universal health care? 216.94.11.2 (talk) 18:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Mexico is a developed country, industrialized, with the 12th largest economy in the world. It has a larger economy than Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Singapore, countries you list. I'll bet you it produces far more industrial products than Singapore as well. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 19:43, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes but size of the economy is clearly not the deciding factor, as shown by India and China, per capita income is and average standard of living is. I would say that while great steps have been taken in recent decades, there are still areas of Mexico that are decidedly "third world" and undeveloped. Industrial production is also mostly not related to the definition, indeed most developed economies rely more on services than their third world counterparts (some, like Luxembourg, almost entirely so). TastyCakes (talk) 21:10, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

RfC: Image to represent US education

Template:RFCsoc Currently, this image of the Rotunda at the University of Virginia is the sole representation of all US education. Previously it was a landscape view of UC Berkeley and before that, another image of the Rotunda. It is agreed that an image of a US public institution/entity should represent US education, but there is disagreement as to which one (it need not be limited to higher education). Comments on which institution/entity should represent US education would be appreciated. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 19:26, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment: Please see the above discussion in Talk for various points made by 4 regular contributors to this article, and then the points and counter-points made just between myself (Ben Lunsford) and Wadester16. As for "the sole representation of all US education", any other specific image chosen would then be the "sole representation" so therein lies the rub. Comments on which specific image of which specific structure at a public institution/entity to use would be appreciated... e.g. the current image or a specific image of Sather Tower, not "UC Berkeley" or a particular college just in general. Also, I have offered to improve the current image on Wadester16's list of "technical complaints", an offer he did not accept, so please do not base comments on those technical considerations here since Wadester16 would not afford me an opportunity to correct them. Ben Lunsford (talk) 19:47, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

That's a bit rough. I don't have to accept your offer. If the image is fixed technically, good. But that doesn't change much else in my argument. I shouldn't have to wait for you to fix the image to request comment. My ultimate goal is to have the image replaced, so fixing it doesn't affect my intentions to hear other opinions on the subject. Also, you seem to be making this too specific and biased, stating that it must be a specific structure, which it clearly does not. That is your opinion. Also, any image used in this section will be a de facto representative of US education; I'm not sure how you can disagree with that. I made a great effort to create the most neutral summary possible above, and I think I did a good job of that; now you're trying to sway the story. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 21:07, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

But the "major problems" of tilt and distortion that "make you cringe" when you look at the image... do ring a bit hollow since you rushed to a RfC as soon as I offered to help with this major aspect of your criticism? Also, we do need opinions on specific images of a specific structure, not thoughts on various universities or institutions "in general". The image that was an aerial of an entire campus was not a structure, true, but that was one reason it was replaced when the new image was found in the first place. I didn't realize you were now arguing for images that weren't of structures... you never indicated you disagreed with DCGeist's premise in the lengthy discussion above.

Again, we need a specific (most likely structural) image in this section... not mere generalized opinions on various universities themselves. Images and the actual structures depicted in those images. That was my point above. Ben Lunsford (talk) 21:28, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

The image problems are specific to this image; my overall argument is to not use UVA. Whether it's a structure or not, I don't care; I've never said I prefer a landscape over a single structure. When comparing landscapes and structures above, it was specific to each image, not general. I thought that was clear.

I'm also saying it needn't be a college/university. Personally, I now think it should be the Smithsonian Castle, which I've indicated above. I didn't think of this until now, but looking here, it states that only 34.4% of Americans actually have a higher level degree (Associates or greater). How does that represent US education? The majority of Americans have a high school diploma or less! On the other hand, 99% of Americans attended primary and secondary education (at least to some extent; depending on the dropout age in a given state) because it's mandated by law. We may have some of the best higher level education institutions in the world, but for our standing, we have some of the lesser educated citizens. Sigh... ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 21:47, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

The education section should certainly be expanded to include information such as that... we should make it larger. But anyway, even if we decided it had to be what you call a "lower" education building, the "castle" at the Smithsonian would be a less than ideal choice for that in my opinion. It's just an administrative federal office building.

I think part of the problem here is that there is no primary alternative to compare to the current image. If you now think it should be the Smithsonian castle photo, then that would evolve the discussion quite a bit. Ben Lunsford (talk) 21:56, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding content is not an option; it has been made clear to me in the past that this article is already too large and the regulars guard the article like hawks with regards to that. But again, I'm not proposing the Smithsonian as a representative of lower education, but as a compromise that represents neither lower or higher education, but American education in general. This is a compromise that biases no specific range of education. In fact, it represents higher education, because it is a research institution, lower education because it is a prominent field trip location for younger students (many times offering them classes), continuing education because they employ so many people (especially retirees), and general education because of its museums, history, and collection of American artifacts. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 22:21, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay. Thank you for picking a primary alternative. Whew! Now we're getting somewhere. My own feelings about switching to the castle photo are...

Rotunda–the current image

Smithsonian Castle–Wadester16's one possible alternative

1. It doesn't represent our educational experience as well as the current image. Why? It's not a college, it's not a school. It's an administrative federal building with, as you have pointed out, a small museum in the bottom.
   • "Administrative federal building", as I've said many times, is not a fair representation of this building. Also, if you want to boil everything down to oversimplified arguments, UVA only represents the educational experience of... UVA alumni; not very general. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 17:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
     • So we're back to the Ben Lunsford and Wadester16 back-and-forth conversation? Great. I've noticed that the way you have tried to "win" arguments in the past is by attrition, so I'll do my best to keep up with you. ;) So... what would you call the castle building then? It has a very small museum on what, one floor in the bottom of the building, with lots of offices above it? Exactly how would you describe it? A museum? Also, the Rotunda is a collegiate building, and the current pic shows a college student making her way to or from a college class. It's a great depiction of education in the US at its highest public level (college). Ben Lunsford (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
       • I'd call it The Smithsonian. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 21:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
         • You'd call the subject of the photo The Smithsonian? I would not. Surely you realize that most of the Smithsonian, particularly the well-known museums and the majority of its educational (not administrative) bodies are not present in this particular photograph of the "castle". Ben Lunsford (talk) 23:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
2. The article already has images of this federal building in Washington DC, this other federal building in Washington DC, and also this additional federal building in Washington DC. Do we really need the fourth in a series of images of federal administrative buildings in Washington DC for this article? And do we need a 6th image of Washington, DC in this article? According to Wadester16's list above, there are 5 images taken in Washington, DC used in the article already.
   • True, but incidental, as mentioned below. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 17:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
     • "Incidental" or not, we should fight systematic bias here. Ben Lunsford (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
       • Stop twisting my words. I made it clear that if they ended up being in the same place, then so be it. As I said before, so much of America's history is in the east that it has to be expected. At the same time, the Smithsonian has facilities in DC, NY, VA, Panama, and other places. You supporting UVA is the same thing anyway. Like you said, "A large proportion of the population lives "back east", and the largest cities as well as the capital are on the east coast...". ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 21:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
         • Twisting your words? It's what you said. And no, it is clearly not the same thing to support a public collegiate building over yet another federal administrative one. We really don't need a 6th image of Washington DC here. There are 0 other images from the (much larger) district of Virginia. What I said, and you repeated and bolded, had to do with "east coast" images, not having all our images be taken inside the same square mile in DC. That's just silly. Ben Lunsford (talk) 23:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
3. International and national organizations have deemed the current image's subject to be extremely noteworthy. UNESCO has protected its preservation with international funds. The American Institute of Architects has called it the proudest architectural achievement in the United States since 1776. Such organizations have not similarly recognized the Smithsonian castle, nor have they deemed it worthy of international preservation efforts.
   • I've made my views on UNESCO known previously and have already mentioned the notability of the Castle's architect. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 17:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
     • That's great that you don't respect the United Nations or UNESCO, but others might. And while the architect of the castle was a fine architect, Thomas Jefferson is at least as relevant an individual to the United States or most likely, more so. And it's the "Academical Village" and this specific structure pictured that national and global authoritative sources such as UNESCO and the Bicentennial AIA article find so compelling, not just the architect behind it. Ben Lunsford (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
       • Please don't imply that I don't respect the UN because I do, very much so. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 21:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
         • And yet, when it suits you, you lend no credence to their educational body? Ben Lunsford (talk) 23:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
4. Familiar educational structures across the US have been noticeably inspired by the subject of the current image. So many educational buildings across the country have used its Jeffersonian design and the original Pantheon as inspiration. Do you really think so many educational institutions nationwide would start designing buildings around the Pantheon in ancient Rome if a U.S. President had not done it first? There is no comparable educational influence with the building you propose.
   • That's laughable: Self-supporting dome designs were used only because Jefferson "brought it back into fashion"? Come on - that's ridiculous. You're ignoring the Pantheon's own credibility and place in history. And you claim "so many" other educational buildings are based on this. I found 1, 2 at most. They are listed above and seemed to not have any objection to that statement.~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 17:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
     • I'll defer to UNESCO and the AIA article on the significance of the design. They are greater authorities than you or I. And as you know, the Pantheon was not an educational building. It was a religious temple. The Rotunda was the first educational purpose "Pantheon" inspired building, "religion turned into a library". Other universities followed suit, and more than two: from the U-Va. page on Wikipedia: "Most notably designed by inspiration of the Rotunda and Lawn are the expansive green spaces headed by Rotunda-like buildings built at Duke University in 1892, Johns Hopkins University in 1902, Rice University in 1910, Peabody College of Vanderbilt University in 1915, the Green at the University of Delaware in 1916, Killian Court at MIT in 1916 and the American-designed "Old Campus" of Tsinghua University in Beijing built in 1917." That's a lot more than one or two and don't even include the two you cited. So throw two more on that pile. Ben Lunsford (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
       • Are you saying Jefferson deserves the credit for the idea of the "quad" on almost every American college campus? Even the article on quads references UVA and how Jefferson based it on Palladio, who was a notable Italian architect. This kind of retracts a bit from your "distinctly American" theory, especially since the Italian architect's book of drawings was "Jefferson's bible". Quads have been around since the times of Oxford and Cambridge (Trinity College at the University of Cambridge, 1546: 52°12′1.7″N 0°7′26.18″E). An analysis of the examples given from the UVA website (plus, it's good practice to take a university's website with a grain of salt; it's one giant advertisement, really):
         • Duke: Close, though it seems to be octagonal (which is hugely different in the architectural realm. The AIA's HQ in DC is The Octagon House, given that name for a reason). Also, the clear icon of Duke is Duke Chapel.
         • Johns Hopkins: If you're talking about Homewood House, it was bought by Johns Hopkins in 1902; completely incidental (doesn't even have a dome; it's just a general representative of the Federalist Style). If you mean Gilman Hall, it more resembles Independence Hall in Philly than the Rotunda; I don't think you can argue with that. Either way, I see no dome and a rotunda can only exist below a dome.
         • Rice: I'm unable to find a similar-looking structure. If you find it, let me know.
         • Vanderbilt: The Wyatt Center looks surprisingly like MIT's Building 10... And under the dome is a large staircase, not at all what Jefferson designed at UVA
         • Delaware: Building is not round and does not really have a dome (not sure what I'd call the roof on that thing...). Also, the building has no Pediment , which is a distinct part of the design of the Rotunda and Monticello (indeed if it weren't, there'd be no need for one on the Jefferson Memorial). See my comment about quads above.
         • MIT: Building 10 was based on Low Memorial Library at Columbia, which was based on the Pantheon. Jefferson seems to be missing in this lineage. Seems UVA may be mistaken.
         • Tsinghua: Like I said before, looks more like Monticello, and it's octagonal. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 21:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
           • Eh? Certainly a "quad" is different from a dome and a lawn... which is what they have at Duke, MIT, Vanderbilt, and elsewhere. If you feel the examples you got from the Virginia.EDU are in error, that's your subjective opinion... but as you say, architecture is not your realm. But the fact that your first example was Duke certainly says a lot. Duke has a West Campus and an East Campus. The East Campus is extremely similar to the Rotunda and Lawn. See this pic if you truly have any doubt. The entire area is eerily similar minus minor details (would any architect make an exact replica of another campus?). But look at the dome, the lawn, and even student residences lining the side! Yes, architects are paid for something... from a lot of your comments above it seems that if anything at all was altered, that design can't be influenced or related. I'll say it yet again, I am far more trusting of respected sources such as the United Nations, the AIA, and even American Heritage magazine than of your subjective architectural opinions. As you have stated, you are no architectural expert (I certainly am not either) and this discussion needn't be driven past your, or my, scope. Your architectural opinions are interesting, but hardly authoritative on the subject compared to, say, UNESCO. Ben Lunsford (talk) 23:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
5. And not just educational structures. The very image above it on this page utilizes the Jeffersonian theme of red brick and white columns. So many organizations (such as the United Nations) group Jefferson's Rotunda and his home at Monticello together into Jeffersonian architecture, a sweeping architectural influence from these two buildings. The Smithsonian castle has wielded little to no influence over our American landscape.
   • Yes, red brick and white columns are all due to Jefferson. Again, come on; brick was the standard building material of the time. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 17:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
     • Do you know of any earlier examples that precede Jeffersonian architecture? I'm not saying he invented red brick and designed the first column in the history of man, I'm simply acknowledging the same architectural influence that the American Institute of Architects acknowledges. You don't want to acknowledge the AIA story and you don't want to acknowledge the United Nations... why is that? Just because they disagree with you? Ben Lunsford (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
       • How about the Massachusetts State House (1798). I'm not an expert, you're asking me to do things not within my grasp here. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 21:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
         • Only about 30 years too late. Jefferson began Monticello in 1768. While Monticello and the Rotunda are too different buildings, Jeffersonian architecture had wide influence and the Rotunda is considered one of the two finest examples. Ben Lunsford (talk) 23:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
6. I look at the Smithsonian castle and can't help but think it's a structure located somewhere in Europe, not in the United States. The Castle is not distinctively American... while Jefferson's Rotunda very much is.
   • On the contrary, it was designed by a famed American architect of the late 19th century. Surely you can't ignore that. Also, this is your opinion: "can't help but think it's a structure somewhere in Europe..."; completely subjective. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 17:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
     • Right, that's why I said think... it was my opinion. Why would you think otherwise? Objectively, I've cited what the AIA (and UNESCO) has said about the Rotunda. You've cited nothing about the influence or importance of your favored image here. Ben Lunsford (talk) 18:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. We've got your opinion and mine, now we can let the regulars and other users comment on the current and the alternative. I don't see it as a "compromise" as you framed it, as I am as opposed to the alternative as you are to Jefferson's Rotunda, but it is indeed an evolution of this back-and-forth that will allow others to weigh a specific choice between two specific structures. Thanks for your efforts here. Ben Lunsford (talk) 22:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Even this would be better at representing US education as a whole Another alternative A bit of a satirical example to make a point

No, no, no: I'm not making a formal proposition. I'm offering an example of a possible compromise. The entire point of the RfC is for others to weigh in and offer other possible examples, not necessarily vote on "your side" versus "my side". I do think that the Smithsonian Castle could be a good replacement, but I also think others may have better ideas than me. Again, this all comes down to the fact that UVA seems upsettingly arbitrary to represent the whole of US education (upper, lower, what have you).

While you have a point about the other 3 images (White House, Capitol, Supreme Court), you can't really have an article on the United States without those; so the connection is incidental. And referencing the Castle as "an administrative federal building" is not at all a fair representation of the building itself and almost nobody would ever actually call it that; you're very much oversimplifying the issue to make a point.

I placed the US Department of Education seal to the right. Even that would be a better representative of US education. Though I don't suggest it. Maybe the answer is to not have an image because a reasonable image that represents US education in general can't be found. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 17:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

First of all, the argument that the pictured building isn't at a university where all American students attended is a bit bizarre. No college has been attended by all. But if you look at this and the other top publics across the country, there's no one building quite so interesting or significant as Jefferson's Rotunda. I've cited well-known sources, both American and global, to support this premise.

So you seem to have some kind of unknown issue with the school itself. After all, it's not about it being a university, and certainly not about it being a public one... you were absolutely fine with a view of UC Berkeley being pictured. DCGeist and myself have reminded you that Virginia and Berkeley are both two of the very top publics in the country... applicants even prefer Virginia over Berkeley, as DCGeist said. There's a U.S. government funded study showing that.

Everything else here, your disregard for UNESCO, your disregard for Jeffersonian architecture, your disregard for the AIA and their calling Jefferson's Rotunda "America's proudest work".... all seem to stem from a general disregard for the University of Virginia itself? So maybe you'd like to explain a little more why you have such an issue with the University of Virginia but not with the University of California, Berkeley? Where is that overall disregard coming from?

Ben Lunsford (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I have nothing against UVA, as I've mentioned many times before—and, while I'm at it, I have nothing for Berkeley; never stepped foot on either campus. I feel UVA is too arbitrary to solely represent US education on an article that receives 45k visits daily. I don't really think it should be a higher ed institution now (it's essentially free advertising) and I really don't think it should be UVA.

Clearly my bizarre comment was to make a point; that was obvious. But something that is important is the fact that the Smithsonian impacts many more Americans than any single institution of higher education in the nation. Counting all the museums on the National Mall complex, the Smithsonian receives more than 7-8 25 million visitors annually (I'm being conservative here b/c some of the articles don't have visitor stats, but Air & Space on the mall has 5.5 million and Air & Space in VA has 1+ million). Ohio State currently has 54,000 students (that's a factor of 100).

And again! Only 34.4% of Americans end up having a higher level degree! That does not represent US education well, when almost two-thirds of Americans were not involved with the thing that we are using to represent the whole of American education. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 21:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

And, again, you had no problem whatsoever with the image of UC Berkeley. So, this isn't about the reasons above that could apply to any school. None of that was a problem for you with the UC Berkeley image. It's something about the University of Virginia specifically.

Yes, the Smithsonian has many visitors annually... but they visit for one day. Maybe a weekend in some cases. Even at the highest level of U.S. education, students visit at least 180 days a year. No one in the country has had their education shaped by administrative buildings with small museums in the bottom. The Natural History museum would be a better example if you are talking about "raw learning" outside of the day-to-day educational system. But... really any museum building would be a bizarre choice for a sub-section on U.S. education. An internationally notable building on a public school grounds or public college campus is what should be pictured.

And if only 34.4% have a degree from the apex level of public U.S. education, I'd guess 0.0% have a diploma from a museum. ;)

Ben Lunsford (talk) 23:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

You failed to respond to 4 of 6 of the buildings you quoted from UVAs website (I don't count Rice-couldn't find the building). You focused on Duke and—I'll assume—forgot about the rest. I'm doubting the website because some of these places are so not like UVA (also, in searching their site, I couldn't find that quote). And a quad is a lawn mostly surrounded by buildings, typically with walkways through said lawn, i.e. exactly what we're talking about. How do you fail to see that? You also seemed to ignore the Palladian influence, an influence that has been the basis of much architectural design, including the White House (just proves my point that most east-coast American architecture is European in nature anyway—so Monticello and the Rotunda look like they're from Europe just like the Castle). And find me the quote where I said Berkeley was perfect to represent US education. I just said it was better and much less arbitrary. Also the red brick, white wood motif was used quite well on Independence Hall (United States), which came before Monticello. (Ben's note: don't make up things, please. I never said red brick and "white wood". The white columns are actually plaster, by the way. Wadester16's note: Red brick and white accents; my apologies. Either way my point stands.) Overall you're bouncing around too much and it boils down to this:

1. UVA is too arbitrary to represent the whole of US education. Take note that I wasn't the only one that thought UVA was arbitrary. It's just unfortunate that the better known institutions are all private (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc). They would do a better job, but something public should represent here.
2. If one specific institution has to do this, UVA is not the one; Berkeley seemed to be better and I am open to other options.
3. Lower education and other forms of education in the country (continuing education, cultural education, etc) make up more of a typical American life than higher education (since you love to write out "UNESCO" and "AIA" so much, I'll bring up the 34.4% fact again, assuming you didn't see the first 3 times, like you seem to assume I missed your reference the other 30+ times)
4. I think the Smithsonian Castle, which is the unarguable symble of the Smithsonian Institution could do a good job of representing education as a whole in the US, or at least better than an image of UVA.
5. I am open to any other ideas. This needn't (and shouldn't) be a Ben Lunsford—Wadester16 discussion, as you have indicated above ("So we're back to the Ben Lunsford and Wadester16 back-and-forth conversation?"), it is open to anybody, and I am very open to other ideas, hence a request for comment.
6. I'm also open to the idea of not having an image there due to the reasons both you and I have brought up (none of what we're offering actually represents the whole of US education, though the Smithsonian is undoubtedly the closest.)

I'm much more open-minded than you seem to be giving me credit for. It's just one thing that I'm against - just one. Also, there's a above I'd like you to address. You're verging on a personal attack there. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 23:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, I've made it quite clear that I have nothing against UVA and have no affiliation with Berkeley. I'll also state now that I have no affiliation with the Smithsonian. One of the pillars of WP, as I'm sure you're aware, is to AGF. I'd appreciate that much courtesy because you are definitely ABF of me. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 00:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you're doing this on purpose, or if you're just forgetting, but you continually do not respond to the main topic of the past few responses I've given you. Why specifically did you have none of the above issues with the UC Berkeley landscape pic that you have with the pic of Jefferson's Rotunda? Each one of your criticisms could go for both Berkeley and Virginia. The U.S. government funded a study, cited above, where the University of Virginia was listed as the top public institution for high-achieving students. You never responded when DCGeist mentioned it, and you never responded when I mentioned it. Your singling out of this one university as "unacceptable" and not the other one seems altogether arbitrary and subjective.

I do mention UNESCO and the AIA a lot. Because you continually ignore or discount the role of these reliable sources. Objectively, they are national and international authorities on the subject. You are not. Neither am I. But I defer to these reliable sources, and you don't trust them. (As for responding to Duke, I singled it out because it was so incredibly wrong. But instead of going through each example, as I already said, again, I'm willing to go with reliable sources. You seem to want to devolve the discussion into a subjective argument about architecture between two people who are not architects. Let's go with the AIA... they are professional architects. UNESCO is pretty knowledgeable on the subject as well. Agreed?) Wait, am I allowed to mention the United Nations, or can we only discuss your opinions here? Which is the more reliable authority to you?

As far as your crying "personal attack", all I said was that you may tend to fight wars of attrition and that I'll try to keep up with you... I even winked! I've striked it now and I'll even remove it entirely if you feel it unduly sways opinions. I've twice thanked you for your thoughts here, hopefully you can feel the ♥.

You also didn't respond to my criticism of the fact that people only visit museums for 1 day instead of 180 a year. Or that 0% of Americans graduated from museums in their educational lineage. You can mention "34.4%" all you want, and I'll always respond with "0%". Fair enough?

Finally, you accuse me of "bouncing around too much". Huh? You say Berkeley is fine, and get upset when it is replaced... then you now say that a university can't be represented here. You bring up the tilt and distortion problems, how they make you "cringe at the sight" of them. When I offered to fix them (and now have done so) you completely ignored that aspect. You brought up "east coast bias" and implied the article needs a west coast or midwest photo here... but then you came up with, as an alternative, one of the Smithsonian buildings... in Washington, D.C. See: Pot calling the kettle black.

Ben Lunsford (talk) 00:30, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

← I've made it explicitly clear that I think Berkeley was better than UVA. You know, like on an SAT question, you have to pick the "best" answer, when at least another one is "good"? And no, I'm not saying Cal is "best" of all possibilities, but best of the ones brought up (out of 2! - nobody else has offered alternatives!) I said it in my last post: "And find me the quote where I said Berkeley was perfect to represent US education. I just said it was better and much less arbitrary." I still challenge you to do that. That responds to the first paragraph.

I never stated or quoted you about "Berkeley being perfect". I stated that you never had any of these issues with "one school being pictured for US Education" when it was Berkeley. So now you've given a response, but only a very subjective one... "Berkeley is better". Again, why? DCGeist cited a United States funded study to counter this notion when you first said it. At the same time, he said you've cited nothing showing that Berkeley is any less arbitrary, so that seems incredibly subjective as well. Ben Lunsford (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm still not swayed by an opinionated source from AIA that is over 100 years old. I'm not saying it's worthless, I'm just saying it's lost value in the century since. If you look at UNESCO's site about Monticello/UVA, you'll notice a lack of photos of UVA (two of Monticello!) and you'll notice that it's the entirety of UVA, not just the Rotunda or the Lawn that are given World Heritage Site-status. Maybe a better way to do this photo, then, is to do a quasi-aerial from the opposite end of the Lawn. You don't know it's a quad because you can't see the buildings on the side. That responds to your second paragraph.

Argh. It's from 1976. Not "over 100 years old". That was The New York Times saying something similar in 1895. The New York Times, the American Institute of Architects, UNESCO, American Heritage... there have been many reliable sources cited here asserting the significance of Jefferson's Rotunda (and "Academical Village") to American educational foundations. It's understandable to get one or more of them confused with others. And the AIA refers to, specifically, the Rotunda and the Lawn ("Academical Village") surrounding it. I'm not sure a quasi-aerial would make a good image, but if you are now willing to accept a view from the opposite end of the Lawn, then that is at least some progress. Personally, I agree with DCGeist above, that the most significant structure is preferable to a landscape shot. Ben Lunsford (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

You're right; my mistake. I felt sure that the AIA report was the old one and didn't feel like searching through this novella we are writing. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 02:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate the cross out. I honestly am not sure where you're coming from on that. And don't forget, this is the Internet. I interpreted the wink as a "gotcha", as if trying to rub something in. That's not my fault; just be more careful with emoticons in the future; I would advise against them during debates like this. This is another example where I originally took it as a "gotcha": "And if only 34.4% have a degree from the apex level of public U.S. education, I'd guess 0.0% have a diploma from a museum. ;)" See what I mean? That responds to your third paragraph.

I'll heed your advice and not wink on the Internet (ha) but I had seen it as more of an indication of a "chuckle" or light moment. You're right, not your fault. Ben Lunsford (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

No, people don't visit museums 180 days a year, but sometimes (and you have to admit this), you remember more from a field trip than the 180 days because they were monotonous; admittedly, that's completely qualitative, but it is the first thing I thought of. And I don't think I should have to respond to your 0% remark because it was so obvious. I mean, come on? But my point still stands with 34.4%! Maybe a primary or secondary school would be good? I don't know; I still don't like the idea of one school representing education. And I'm kind of against one higher-ed school due to the free publicity (even public schools charge a price). UNESCO wasn't brought up until I removed this image the first time; I bet the person that originally put this image in was a UVA alum. I still think, though, that because the Smithsonian has influenced far more people than any one American university ever could, it represents the educational experience better (again, for the reasons stated above). That responds to your fourth paragraph.

I think if we could find an internationally acclaimed primary or secondary public school and structure then it wouldn't be a bad idea at all. I can't think of any off the top of my head. And I'm not sure when UNESCO was mentioned about which image (of the Rotunda I assume) but it should seemingly always be a prime consideration when discussion the Rotunda, Lawn, or Monticello. Same with the AIA designation as "America's proudest achievement"... Ben Lunsford (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Chances are probably smaller than with higher ed (it would end up being a private school anyway, one where like 1000 senators graduated from or something). Though the Smithsonian is internationally acclaimed, and has a presence in almost 100 other nations! ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 03:33, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

If I've said it once, I've said it too many times: Berkeley is better. Its image quality was also better, though I'm still not a fan of the current one compositionally. I give you credit for your efforts in fixing the current image; it indeed looks better (It doesn't cause me to cringe any longer). That said, the building itself is still suffering from a curvature. Look at the stairs, tops of the columns, and base of the pediment and compare to a horizontal line. The centers typically are higher than the ends. It's probably not a physical problem, but a photographic one, and could still be fixed. And again, as I've stated above, the east-coast bias was more of an observation. And on that note, keeping UVA isn't solving the problem that you're now jumping on just because I brought up this new option. It may not be in DC, but it's only 100 miles away (almost exactly). Keeping UVA doesn't help it at all; I think we can agree to just ignore this point for now on, b/c we're just going to use it against each other, causing it to be moot anyway. Me pot, you kettle. That takes care of the fifth paragraph.

"Berkeley is better." Strangely subjective, with logic or reasoning seemingly absent. What did you think of the U.S. government funded study that DCGeist mentioned? The one that found high-achieving applicants tend to choose Virginia over Berkeley, more than the other way around, when accepted to both? You cite U.S. News below, and Virginia has been in the top 2 of their public rankings every year since they began ranking. Berkeley can't claim that in those rankings, either (although UCB is currently ranked first in USN). Ben Lunsford (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

An added bonus is that the Smithsonian image is featured, too (and some of our most respected photographers gave high praise to the image ← This is an example of an observation that marginally impacts the overall debate but is interesting to note, much like the east-coast bias). Also, the current Secretary quit as President of Georgia Tech (home of a top-5 engineering school in the nation in 2009, based on US News) to take the new role; apparently he feels the Smithsonian is notable enough to leave the highest levels of higher ed to run it (←another observation). ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 01:29, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I'll emphasize again, I love the Smithsonian. It's notable as a museum. Not as a school or college, or for U.S. education. Definitely for U.S. museums (and I'm talking about the Natural History, Air & Space, etc. not necessarily the castle). Ben Lunsford (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but a high-profile university president leaving to take the role of Secretary definitely places this in roughly the same class. It's undoubtedly a place of learning: higher learning, lower learning, etc. It offers tours and classes to primary students, internships to high school students, internships to college students, fellowships to college students and professionals, and careers in the research fields (in many ways that sounds like a college to me). The Institution's article calls it "an educational and research institute and associated museum complex," which emphasizes it as an institution of learning first, grouping of museums second. The GAO referred to the SI as being the world's largest research institution (page 1). And also, with regards to your claim of the Castle being an admin building: it may be party administration now, but it was the first (and only, at one time) Smithsonian museum. The Institution also offers an educational magazine (which you'll only find in your dentist's office...), a television channel, and research activities in more than 90 countries. This brings back up my point of not using an icon that is biased towards the American reader. More people have heard of the Smithsonian than probably any public institution of higher ed in the US. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 03:33, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I must say that the idea of using the Smithsonian as our representative image for the Education section is little short of bizarre (as are some of the bases for argumentation--"East coast bias"? Wow. Someone needs to read up on the history of the country). Let's restrict the conversation to the two images appearing most recently--those of the universities of Virginia and California-Berkeley. It strikes me there are two significant, relevant similarities between these photos that commends each of them for use in this context:

(1) They are both images of public universities.

(2) Both of those schools are highly regarded institutions.

It strikes me that there are two significant, relevant differences between these photos that clearly commends one over the other:

(1) The photo of UVA is excellent. The photo of Berkeley is mediocre.

(2) The photo of UVA depicts a structure of great historical and architectural significance. The photo of Berkeley does not.

It's a pretty easy call. Both photos are suitable. But one is much, much better suited than the other. That's the one we have now.—DocKino (talk) 04:13, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

But what are your thoughts about one single university being used to represent the whole of the US educational system, especially since only 1/3 of Americans actually finish a degree, whereas almost 99% make it at least into high school (by law)? ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 04:40, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

There's a case to be made to show a representative high school or even elementary school. However, (a) showing a public university does give us the opportunity to efficiently include the interesting datum that appears in the caption and (b) I believe the share of Americans with degrees is actually quite high, in relative global terms, so there's absolutely nothing misleading about using a picture of a university. However, if you have (a) an excellent picture of an elementary or secondary school and (b) a suggestion for an interesting datum that could accompany it, I'd be up for considering it.DocKino (talk) 04:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Admittedly, no primary or secondary school will be more well-known than either of the two universities we've been talking about (especially if we're talking a public school), so I don't think that's the correct route to take. As for the 80% fact, that can easily be worked into the prose of the section if necessary. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 05:23, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

My GOD, what did I stumble upon? First verdict: Shush it up. Second verdict: I do agree with many of the points from users DCGeist, DocKino, and Ben Lunsford... Keep Rotunda. Here's my summary of this discussion:

DCGeist made the point that UC-Berkeley is no less "arbitrary" than Virginia. He mentioned that the U.S. Government commissioned a study showing just that. Many sources were subsequently cited showing that U. of Virginia is a top public university by numerous standards. Agree.

DocKino acknowledged both schools are highly regarded and thus concentrated on the photos and the structures in those photos. He said, and I completely agree, that the photo of UVA is excellent and it depicts something of great historical and architectural significance. He also said that the Berkeley pic was mediocre, agreed, and there was nothing in the pic quite so significant. Additionally, he said to use a Smithsonian pic to represent Education would be quite bizarre. Agree.

Ben Lunsford said, well, a lot. I realise that he had only been trying to play defence against the relentless attacks of wadester, but wow. Basically I'll say this: he cited a lot of sources, from a US Government study and US News and World Report magazine showing the university is a top US public; to UNESCO, the AIA, the New York Times, the Chicago Tribune, and American Heritage, showing the structure and area in the photograph is of great significance both to this nation and to worldwide visitors. Great sources, Ben.

wadester... if you had taken one angle and stuck with it, you may have been more convincing. You just made my head spin with all the different forays, some of them to the brink of ridiculousness. I truly think your time could be spent better elsewhere. That goes for Ben too.

--

An unrelated, but important thought re: UNESCO: perhaps this article should include more US World Heritage Sites? It's really to the brink of ridiculousness that the Statue of Liberty is not pictured in the article. And I would like to see Yellowstone or Yosemite pictured instead of Mormon Row and the Teton Range. Perhaps this is for a different discussion, but UNESCO World Heritage status is a quite major global designation by a quite major global organisation and perhaps that should be a consideration when deciding whether to picture, say, the Teton Range versus nearby Yellowstone. I understand that sometimes there are more scenic photographs available of one thing versus another but I'm thinking most World Heritage Sites would have numerous photographs available for use on Wikipedia.

Now I shall leave this page forever!! Because within about 10 minutes, wadester will respond and I will not get held up on this. These are my thoughts after reading this lengthy diatribe. Now I'm leaving. Do not follow me home. 66.43.69.114 (talk) 15:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

How could one follow an IP that only made one edit anyway? Arrgggg: I think it's been made clear almost a dozen times that I don't think it's fair that one university represent the whole of US education. That's the basis of this argument: What is at the level to reasonably represent US education as a whole? There has to be something. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 16:16, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I trust that the readership understands that in the context of a general overview article, for each section we look for a visually strong image of a significant person, place, or event—I trust no one assumes that the subject of that image is meant to convey the be-all and end-all of the topic. Do you really believe that readers assume Jack Kerouac sums up U.S. literature as a whole? That Buzz Aldrin sums up U.S. science and technology as a whole? Of course not. These are all images of representative and significant examples of very broad topic areas—I see no evidence that people don't get that and, thus, I think your fears are unfounded.—DCGeist (talk) 17:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard of Jack Kerouac; I'm an engineer: literature bores me for the most part. But the moon landing is an obvious pick. This situation is far less obvious. You're oversimplifying it. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 04:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Suggested alternatives

If we're going to go back to the UVA-Berkeley debate, then so be it; though I still hold that one higher ed institution shouldn't represent US education when only a third of Americans actually get a degree.

On and on and on the energizer bunny goes! So your entire point in the lengthy discussion above, was no one university should "represent education as a whole". Now effectively abandoning your primary argument, you are making a 180 degree turn... and back to Rotunda vs. Clock Tower and Berkeley vs. Virginia. As stated numerous times before, one must also consider the relative insignificance of Sather Tower vs. the significance of the Rotunda pictured, not just colleges in general ("UC Berkeley vs. Virginia"), because that's what is actually pictured here in each photograph (and the same goes for all 4 you propose of UC Berkeley). Which provides a more interesting architectural structure to focus on? The alternative that lets one focus the best is Alternative 2, but yet again, a clock tower just does not cut it for me, and having covered the entire UC Berkeley campus a few times, there is nothing else I can think of that is similarly significant or that makes for a similarly striking visual image as the Rotunda. Alternative 1 would almost be a good image if it didn't cut a significant building in half. (Who did the cropping here??) Also, the most visually appealing thing about each of these images are the blue [a little toooo blue... overly retouched] skies, not the structure(s) themselves. Interesting list with the academic rankings from Berkeley's website, but it looks as though you reversed Virginia and UC Berkeley on the U.S. Government study... you also neglected to mention it was a National Bureau of Economic Research study. Also, I will probably have to make a list of the architectural, cultural, and educational designations that the Rotunda has garnered versus that of the Campanile. I notice that you did not even attempt to make the argument that this clock tower is as notable to the United States (or, for that matter, to the United Nations) as is the Rotunda and area surrounding it.

I do commend you for refusing to ever take no for an answer if you want to personally change something on Wikipedia badly enough. You are "be bold" on steriods... not necessarily a bad thing. Ben Lunsford (talk) 21:34, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Come on, a third and fourth opinion commented, and agreed that the Smithsonian didn't have a place and one noted the discussion should be limited to UVA/UCB. Unfortunately they didn't offer any suggestions though. I'm doing this for the betterment of the article; I have no evil plan here. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 02:41, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Hah, I've got no problem with it. Just surprising to see someone persist for this long... I'm actually surprised that I'm still here with you. Ben Lunsford (talk) 02:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Find below a few options I dug up to represent Berkeley (in order of my preference, FYI). And below that, find reasons why I think Berkeley should be the choice (completely new ones from before, so please read on ).

• 
  Alternative 1
• 
  Alternative 2
• 
  Alternative 3 (the one that was removed)
• 
  Alternative 4
• 
  Current image

Ranking Group	UCB	UVA
US News & World Report (based on 15 indicators of academic excellence... too many to list here)	21 Public: 1	23 Public: 2
Princeton Review-USA TODAY (based on tuition [equals out] and academic environs [class size, prof. accessibility, % of TA-led classes])	Public: --	Public: 1
United States National Research Council rankings (based on only one metric: faculty research publishing)	2	28
Kiplinger rankings (based on costs [again equal], SATs, selectivity, retention rates, and student-faculty ratios)	12	3
Academic Ranking of World Universities (Shanghai Jiao Tong University study; based again on that singular metric, faculty research publishing)	3	95
Top 100 Global Universities (50% of this ranking is the ranking by Shanghai Jiao Tong above; based primarily on the same singular metric, faculty research publishing)	5	80
Academic Analytics Top Performing Schools (based on only the same singular metric: faculty research publishing)	9	36
Old-metric Forbes ranking (based on Who's Who lists, professor ratings, student debt, % who graduate, and # of Rhodes scholarships)	73	43
New-metric Forbes ranking (adds "affordability and productivity" as very large weights to metrics above)	28 Public: 2	22 Public: 1
Washington Monthly College Rankings (This is a community service ranking)	2	20
National Bureau of Economic Research (Harvard-BU-Yale-Stanford study) (based on top destinations of high-achieving students)	27 Public: 3	20 Public: 1
Webometrics Ranking of World Universities Another research ranking - based on open access scientific research published online)	5	35

Why Berkeley?

• Berkeley ranks highest (in comparison with UVA) on a multitude of ranking systems, both when ranked only with American Institutions and when ranked globally (see this handy overview and note table at right). Much of this list I took straight from College and university rankings. Please feel free to add to the list (or update to more recent values); I will be doing that as I find more information.
• With regards to the study referenced above by DCGeist and again by Ben Lunsford, you'll note that UVA is ranked 20 and Berkeley 27. But without covariates, this changes to 21 and 25, respectively (as stated in the document, the the error produced without covariates is on the order of 1%). Following Eq. 9 in the document, it seems there is a 61.8% chance a given student will choose UVA over Berkeley. But the report itself notes the uncertainty that comes with its findings, and the fact that "…our ranking is an example, not definitive," (italics theirs), also noting that the lower one goes in the rankings, and the closer universities are in the rankings, the less confident their system is in knowing the correct placement. For rankings between 20 and 40, that are immediate neighbors (which, admittedly, these two are not - but they are close), the confidence level for the 61.8% above, with respect to each other, can be as low as 60%. Based on the amount of uncertainty in this research, I feel it's fair to say that UVA and Berkeley are roughly even, with UVA having a marginal lead. (Also I saw no reference to this study being funded by the government. Can someone provide that reference?)
• While the AIA and UNESCO are notable arguments, it seems clear that Berkeley is considered to be America's premiere public institution of higher education. The difference between the two can be quite staggering, and even the most popular ranking system agrees. Looking more closely at the table at right, Berkely consistently beats out UVA, and significantly at times. Forbes.com shows UVA taking Berkeley significantly, but I would take this ranking system with a grain of salt; consider reading it in full because it is an extremely odd system. Briefly look at the user comments as well. That leaves only the study in bullet point above, which I've now explained puts UVA marginally ahead of Berkeley. Looking at these sources equally, Berkeley is the clear winner. I would also argue that Berkeley is much better known by non-Americans than UVA, which would allow for a less Amero-centric article.
• UC Berkeley has had 20 Nobel Laureate faculty and 24 Nobel Laureate Alumni. From what I can tell, UVA has had 4 Nobel Laureates associated with itself in any way (if you can find proof of more, please show). This is a clear showing that Berkeley has been able to affect the world more greatly than UVA in at least this way.
• Berkeley is known for its technical advances, which is also something the United States is known for overall. We are the home of Silicon Valley, which is right nearby. Berkeley is home to the man that discovered plutonium (in addition to 9 other elements) and has an element named after him; the man who was able to cool and trap atoms with laser light (and is currently the US Secretary of Energy); and the inventor of the bubble chamber, to name just three Nobel Laureates. But fear not: they have had Nobel Prize winners in economics, literature, and medicine as well.

Why any of these images?

1. I very much enjoy this image due to its vibrant blue sky and incorporation of different architectural styles, but still honing in on the Campanile. In addition, it includes a good view of the campus, showing some students. I like the fact that it's an "uphill" view, making the the Campanile stand out even more. Most importantly, the colors of the image are striking and beg the eyes to look more closely. The only minor drawback that bothers me is the lighting: the shadow on the left face of the Campanile is a tad distracting; but from the orientation of the building, it doesn't look like that side ever gets sun (it's the NNW side), so it's unavoidable and not that big of a deal. And the blown whites on the top right are actually clouds. I found this on Flickr and uploaded it to Commons.
2. The foliage of this image is what wins me over. I had to do some work on it (which may not become evident for a little while - unfortunately Commons can sometimes take a while to update to the "current" uploaded version, whether you purge or not). This and the previous image also do a nice job of showing off the clay tile roofs of many of the buildings on the campus. This image portrays the hilly campus and has a number of students in it too, making it a good candidate IMO. The negatives are the shadow (same face as in the first one) and the fact that the right face of the Tower is a bit blown, but not so much so as to detract from the overall quality.
3. This is the image that I originally placed on the article page. I like it because it shows a nice overview of the campus surrounding the Campanile, especially the eclectic mix of architecture that is so common on public university campuses (especially due to building booms in the 1960s and 1970s). It contrasts the classic architecture of South Hall, Wheeler Hall, and the Campanile itself, and the more institutional design of Evans Hall. Note that above, this was incorrectly references as an aerial shot. It is not; it was taken from a building.
4. This is a similar view to #1, but not as striking (I put it here just in case you might be interested). Compositionally, the lamp post is a bit of a problem. But this does show a bit of the Memorial Glade, which #1 does not.

So this is my overview as to why Berkeley should be the representative image in the Education section of this article. It shows that UVA is indeed more arbitrary than Berkeley, and has a number of sources to prove that. The replacement suggestions are all taken on sunny days with blue skies, making them enjoyable to look at, and feature Sather Tower, the icon of the Berkeley campus. As Linda Richman used to say, "Please, discuss..." ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 15:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

• I have added some "UCB vs. UVA" rankings that you may have forgotten. I have also added the metrics used for each ranking. It looks like you only thought to add the rankings that were almost entirely based on just one metric: faculty research publishing! As you may know, UVA as a university has a reputation for being less focused on faculty research and winning Nobel Prizes... but more focused on student teaching and student achievements, such as Rhodes Scholarships. [In fact, more UVA students have won Rhodes Scholarships than have UC-Berkeley students, despite the school being half as large; this is probably a large part of the reason that Virginia is #1 among publics in the Forbes ranking.] Indeed, every ranking I could find that values metrics like class size, professor accessibility, and professor vs. TA teaching, unsurprisingly ranks Virginia above UC Berkeley. Every ranking that values only faculty research – even if they never educated a single student – unsurprisingly ranks UC Berkeley above Virginia. So the rankings seem a bit of a wash, the metrics used can almost entirely tell us which one a particular ranking favors (i.e. Value the research publishing of faculty the students may never see? UCB wins. Value the teaching and educational aspects of a university? UVA wins.) Observational note: grad students may not mind that professors do not teach their own classes and focus nearly all of their efforts on getting published; undergraduates will likely hold the opposite view. The various rankings (i.e. "research" rankings vs. "teaching" rankings) are useful in their own rights, but for entirely different subsets of students. That's probably why, as you say, the government funded Harvard-BU-Yale-Stanford study showed that undergrad applicants choose Virginia over UC Berkeley by a 62-38 margin. Ben Lunsford (talk) 00:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

• Wow. 9,000+ words into the debate, I'll say the UVA picture is a representative image, it can and should be replaced if there's a better representative image, judged by features of relevance to the topic, aesthetics, and appropriateness, also considering that because these are subjective judgments there must be a non-trivial improvement. The UVA image should stay unless there's a better image; the Berkeley image is good, but not a substantial enough improvement to warrant this much time spent on the topic. Shadowjams (talk) 21:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
  • So your decision is based mainly on image quality? You could extend that logic to say that a no-name community college should replace it because there's an amazing photo of it. What about the reasons for a particular university? How many words is it now? ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 21:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Oh good grief. Shadowjams said: "judged by features of relevance to the topic, aesthetics, and appropriateness". I see nothing that indicates his decision could be equally applied to a "no-name community college". C'mon. You are the one who requested comment, so try not to bite visitors when they give their honest appraisal. Ben Lunsford (talk) 04:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
      • I see no explicit reason supporting it; oh, other than image quality (the image should stay unless there's a better image.). Is it so wrong to ask a question, Charlie Brown? And who really bit who? We were both nipped by being judged on this discussion. I don't bite. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 04:24, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
        • "We were both nipped by being judged on this discussion." Is that some kind of odd philosophical babble? Ben Lunsford (talk) 04:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

A New Table (with structures!)

Notability	Current: Jefferson's Rotunda (U-Va.)	Alternative: Sather Tower (center of image, UCB)
Constructed	1819–1825	1914–1917
Architect	Thomas Jefferson	John Galen Howard
Global	UNESCO World Heritage Site (1 of only 4 constructed since 1492 in United States)	--
United States	National Historic Landmark (1 of 2,442) National Register of Historic Places (1 of 80,000+)	National Register of Historic Places (1 of 80,000+)
Accolades	Survey of American Institute of Architects deemed it America's proudest work of past 200 years in 1976. -------------- American Heritage called the Lawn surrounding it America's Greatest Architectural Achievement in 1984. -------------- In 1895, The New York Times called it "the most monumental architectural project that had or has yet been conceived in this century" some seventy years after its construction.	--
Fun Facts	The Marquis de Lafayette and James Madison dined for 3 hours with Thomas Jefferson in the Dome Room of the unfinished Rotunda at the university's inaugural banquet.	Has a 10,500 lb. "Great Bear Bell".

Wadester16 introduced a pretty cool table into this momentous (10,000 word?) discussion, so allow me to do the same for the actual buildings in each photograph. To me, the choice of an image is also about the notability of the structure actually viewed through a photograph, as well as the notability of where it sits. Wadester never seems to want to follow the discussion here, so I thought I'd bring forth a second table. At the end of the day, the image should be a visually powerful depiction of a significant structure in a significant location. There aren't many structures or locations in public education that are more notable than Thomas Jefferson's Rotunda and Lawn. This was the last great work of a man with a considerable shadow. Ben Lunsford (talk) 02:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring it; I thought we were passed this bit of accusatory treatment? I made it pretty clear that I think it's the place, not the structure that makes the difference. Therefore UCB should be used because it outdoes UVA in so many of the lists above (yes, even with the additions). I'm arguing a side, and most of what you've put together here has been said before. I'm not expected to cite absolutely everything that you've pointed out, especially since you've already said it; multiple times. Also, the points I just raised were completely new. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 02:54, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

As I said about your lists above, UC Berkeley outdoes on one primary metric: professor research publishing. If you add up the rankings UCB won 4 and UVA won 4, not counting the 1 on each side that were an almost direct regurgitation of another ranking. But even if it had been 10 to 4, all the UCB wins would come down to just one aspect of U.S. education: publishing research. Virginia does better on the metrics regarding the actual teaching and educational roles of a university. Now don't get me wrong, research is a major function of Higher Education, just as teaching students is a major function of K-12 and Higher Education. Research just isn't the only thing... not by a long shot. Also, even to have this discussion: at the end of the day, a similarly notable structure needs to be found. Sather Tower is not it. Ben Lunsford (talk) 03:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Putting the two images next to each other in your table really notes how dull the Rotunda image is. UCB's is much more vibrant and exciting. Image uses HDR. Like I said, that morning light can be overrated. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 04:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Ha. HDR images are a poor choice for this article in general, unless they can tone it down to some level of realism. This image does not. Not to mention that the tower is so far away that I can't even tell it's a photo of the tower... it is almost more like a "blue sky" photo... and an unrealistic, overprocessed blue sky at that with not even a hint of reality. Additionally, the photographer should have either gotten closer to the tower or not cropped Doe Memorial Library in half. By the way, if your world really does revolve around image quality now (yet another new argument from your side?) you owe Shadowjams a big apology above. Not to mention that not everyone enjoys HDR and its unrealistic, over-processed look. I certainly wouldn't want to see HDR images all over this page anytime soon. They're trendy, and way overcooked. When I look at a photograph, I like to see something that could actually exist in real life. There is a role for "computer art" in photography, but not right here. Ben Lunsford (talk) 04:41, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't oversimplify or completely separate your arguments without context. This is a clear example of you doing that. I ask for image quality, but of a subject that there should be an image of. As for HDR, you didn't seem to identify it as such and didn't go on a tirade before this information. While HDR can sometimes overdo it, many times it can bring the true essence of colors out for the viewer (as it says in the lead of the article) and I think this is a great example of that. And it's funny that you complain about cutting the library, on the campus with no notable structures, from the person that was against the landscape idea. Now you want zoom, and the whole building... but that's not possible. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 04:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, no I would never notice that it used HDR. It's not obvious at all. I said it was overprocessed above already, if you care to read it... and while many HDR images have the overprocessed look of this one, it is possible to take an HDR image and tone it down to some level of realism. Thanks for the link to the HDR article, but I can see the image... I don't need to brush up on what HDR could do, I'm concerned with what it did. And that's produce an unrealistic "artsy" overprocessed image. And yes, include the library, or don't include it... either way, don't crop out half of it. That's the worst of both worlds (you don't get to see the building, really, but you do end up with a landscape shot and for no good reason). As for what is "not possible" in photography (lol?) I clearly said "closer to the tower or not cropped". Not both at the same time. But somehow I suspect you knew that? Sheesh. (I also notice that the figures in the image are "beside themselves" with ghosting, and/or their heads got chopped off. It's not "like being there", at least not to me.) Ben Lunsford (talk) 05:01, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I'm throwing in the towel here. No reasonable comments will come due to our extensive comments here, which is a shame because UVA still is not the university to represent my nation on WP. I was working to change something, so no overly-productive comments (save for you Ben) reverts to keep. Yea, it has UNESCO and AIA (which I will now add, since I'm no longer arguing, is a group of pompous arses - but my personal opinion from personal experience), but Berkeley has the rankings (I don't buy the whole "best value" and that study has to start with colleges from somewhere), is better known internationally, and is well known for its scientific advances that helped make the US that much more successful in the 20th century (something I would argue UVA lacked greatly compared to UCB). My point still stands, though, that because so few Americans actually get a degree, that a university is not the best choice anyway. The Smithsonian was not the best either, but I felt it was more representative of an American educational experience (the American history, the science and technology, the art and culture, government and civic duty, etc.). There, I said my piece. Enjoy your "win by attrition", and I now pass over the battery from my back. And out of curiosity, if you went to college, which was it? ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 05:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

You give me too much credit, the best points against your side were probably made by others, such as DCGeist, DocKino, and several others... I just said the most stuff. Those "best value" rankings aren't really based on "value" when comparing these two schools anyway... if anything UCB tuition is a little lower. It's just that they look at the teaching aspects of a university more than research... whereas as you showed, a bunch of other rankings don't regard teaching at all, only published research of the faculty. My personal background could fill another 10,000 word thesis with all its meanders, dead-ends, and re-starts through over half a dozen universities, so I'll have to take that rather lengthy story to your Talk page sometime if I can bear to write it all out. And a final thanks for this mammoth, and I mean MAMMOTH, of discussions - you articulate your points well, I just think you had the shorter straw in this particular case. Good day to you... and we live on to (not) fight another day, Ben Lunsford (talk) 06:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I do like the UVA pic, but the Image #1 below that has the most detail that I've seen out of any of the offered pics. Amazing treatment around the clock tower! 207.216.182.222 (talk) 07:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)kmon

Oops! I meant the UCB image,(Alternative #1), directly above the UVA! Alternative #4 is also good but not enough detail is visible. 207.216.182.222 (talk)krmon —Preceding undated comment added 07:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC).

Hello 207.216.182.222, one thing I noticed above about Alternative #1 is that the figures in the image were a bit mutilated in the computer processing. One of the people is two-headed, another one appears headless. It has that HDR-effect detail of contrast, but it's not "true" detail. Meaning one could not reproduce it in real life, by standing there and looking at it with the human eye. Additionally, it's not taken from a standpoint close enough to the tower to get all the true details possible.

A further note about detail, Alternative #1 is just over ½ megapixel... on larger monitors it doesn't get large enough to view across the full screen. (The current image is 13x as many pixels and 6.89 MB large. Enough detail to support even the largest of today's monitors.) Ben Lunsford (talk) 15:47, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Typo in GDP

There is a typo in the GDP (nominal) total - should be a decimal point rather than a comma. I guess this page is locked - I can't edit. But someone who can edit please fix. Thx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.51.28.229 (talk) 14:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Fixed! Ben Lunsford (talk) 16:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

American Ethnicity

this sentence bothered me, "There is no "American" ethnicity; aside from the now small Native American and Native Hawaiian populations". I don't think we can call Native Hawaiians american from an ethnic point of view, at least not the same way we would a Navajo or Cherokee. ethnically they would either be Pacific Islander, Asian, or Polynesian. nobody says the people of Fiji or any other Pacific Island are ethnically "american". Gailim (talk) 01:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

But you didn't quote the entire sentence. Here it is: "There is no 'American' ethnicity; aside from the now small Native American and Native Hawaiian populations, nearly all Americans or their ancestors immigrated within the past five centuries." You seem to have mistakenly read the semicolon as a comma. In fact, there's no claim in the sentence that Native Americans and Native Hawaiians are either ethnically similar or plausibly describable as "ethnically American" in the same way. (Indeed, we've already dismissed the notion of "ethnically American".) It simply states the fact that aside from these two native populations (which are each undoubtedly and equally American by citizenship), nearly all Americans or their ancestors immigrated within the past five centuries. (The "nearly all" is mainly there to accommodate those who like to differentiate between the Native American and Alaskan Native populations.) —

ah yes, now that I read it again I see what you are saying. I did misread the semi-colon as a comma. that really does make all the difference. Gailim (talk) 03:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)