User talk:Jimbo Wales

Message of an anonymous on your user page.

I find that Wiki's are very helpful. I and other gamers that I know use Wiki for our gaming needs. Thanks Jimbo for creating a user friendly source of information.. DT 129.71.117.210 10:15, 16 May 2009 (archiving timestamp Fram (talk) 12:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC))

Friendly Message from Shane91c

User:Shane91c has given you a bubble tea! Bubble teas promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a bubble tea, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy drinking!

Spread the bubbliness of bubble teas by adding {{subst:bubble tea}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shane91c (talk • contribs) May 18, 2009

(archiving timestamp Fram (talk) 12:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC))

I want the Unblock in spanish wikiquote

Hello dear Jimbo, my IP adress is blocked because a mistake, I`m a innocet user, but Drini hates Jehova's Witnesses users, and he is a proscriptor and a very bad enemy of us. I want, please, the desblock in spanish wikiquote, because I`m working constructuvely. Can you Speak with Drini the Ip's policeman an say him I'm innocent an I`m not a vandal? Thank you very much. --87.220.31.209 (talk) 14:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello Jimbo, I wait for a response. Thanks. --87.220.31.14 (talk) 21:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

General note for everybody: Drini is a steward who has confirmed that the above IP belongs to a sockpuppeteer. Griffinofwales (talk) 02:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a sockpuppeteer. Drini hates Jehovah's Witnesses users because he likes Maya's gods. I was working constructively but he hates Bible quotations in the proyect. If I'm writing here is because I'm innocent. I want the desblock. --87.220.31.238 (talk) 10:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

What does "desblock" translate to in English? --64.85.222.62 (talk) 12:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

"Unblock", (or "disenblockification", if you're not into that whole … brevity thing). pablo_hablo. 14:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a vandal, I want unblock because I'm innocent. --87.220.31.238 (talk) 17:58, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo is not going to interfere with something like that. If you want to be unblocked, you are going to have to take it up with whoever blocked you. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 18:01, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Has anyone thought of asking on eswikiquote village pump? Any of the regulars will confirm that he's been a problem user for a year and half. The whole "religious persecution" and "worshipping mayan gods" thing has been played before, some insulting usernames with that card are logged here: [1]. Please, if this continues just go and ask the people on eswikiquote and you'll confirm what I'm saying. -- m:drini 18:44, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

What a lot of names! Anyway, 87.220.31.238 (talk · contribs), you will have to request your unblock at the site where you are blocked, as M. delanoy suggests. pablo_hablo. 19:31, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm innocent, I'm not a vandal, I'm workimg constructively but Drini hates Jehova's Witnesses users, these are my last contibutions: Do you think I'm working constructively in the project when I'm editing pages like John Quincy Adams, Peter Hamilton Raven, Jane Goodall? obviously I'm not a vandal. --87.220.30.124 (talk) 11:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

As you've been told, you need to plead your innocence on the site where you were blocked. No-one here is able to help you. --Tango (talk) 11:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Is a requirement that administrators be tolerant, Drini it is not, therefore you must to expell him from Wikiquote.--Oo 19 oo (talk) 12:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Can you understand now? I'm a innocent editor. --Oo 19 oo (talk) 11:36, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

• Sigh, here we go with the crosswiki harassment. [2], [3], [4] and cherry top of the cake [5] where it shows the same underlying ip. No big deal, just for the record in case this pops up again (when the next batch of sockpuppets is nuked). -- m:drini 14:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Block of Bishonen, question

Is this an endorsement of the long absent ideal that any user, from the newly registered user, to the Arbs, up to yourself, are held to identical requirements of adherence to policy? rootology (C)(T) 02:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Using this a platform to push your views forward, eh, Rootology? A bit uncouth and unnecessary. Jimmy: It's customary to leave a note on the talk page of the person you've blocked. (Though I imagine you're doing this as I'm typing, surely.) --MZMcBride (talk) 02:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

No, it's a serious question. Are all of us supposed to be held to matching standards? rootology (C)(T) 02:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to answer the general question because I'm not sure of what baggage it is intended to carry. My block is an illustration of the concept that admins are expected to behave in a particular way, a way that doesn't include that kind of thing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

There's no baggage. A lot of commentary of late has been floating around that we admins are 1) above the rules, or 2) held to different standards--looser standards--than non-admins. The question is literally what it is--are all users here supposed to follow the policies the same, with the same levels of repercussions if they don't? rootology (C)(T) 02:47, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Basically, yes. Indeed, I would say that admins should be held to a higher standard. ArbCom members, to a still-higher standard. And me - to the highest standard. This I say with an acknowledgment that we are all capable of error and folly, and should be forgiven such if we are acting in good faith. Nothing is simple. Justice is complex and thoughtful. Kindness is a lifestyle not an algorithm.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

You and I disagree on a lot of stuff, sometimes in private, sometimes in public, but we're on the same page on this. Thanks. rootology (C)(T) 02:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Ditto. No comment on the Bishonen block, or the comment given in the block summary but I strongly agree with the notion that admins should be held to a higher standard than non admins. Not because they are better than non admins, but because they have more responsibility. And functionaries should be held to a higher standard still. Not because they are better than admins, but because they have still more responsibility. Thanks for articulating this, Jimbo. ++Lar: t/c 16:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

My opinion - not that anyone asked - is that Jimmy has this one precisely correct; those who know me know that I disagree with power as often (or more) than I agree with power, so this isn't a sycophant-like moment for me. The truth is, Wikipedia (particularly this one) has been far too tolerant of toxic personalities that create a hostile environment. The damage they do is so much more than just hurt feelings; it pollutes the whole project. When we allow people to treat others in a way that is less than polite; less than considerate, less than peaceful, and less than just, we foster an atmosphere where those values are diminished. That is not the WIkipedia that I fell in love with. Justice used to - and should - and will again - be one of our very core values. It was unspoken, but it was there. We are, generally, a peaceful people who occasionally lose our way and fall into madness. When that happens, we, the community, need reminders of whom we are. I appreciate Jimmy for taking the hard road, and for saying "The behavior was unacceptable. This is who we are. This is where we stand. We can do no other."

One of my favorite quotes is this: "I believe that what I do becomes part of me. When I'm brave and strong and care for children or the sick and the poor, I become a better person. And when I'm cruel, or cowardly or tell lies, I turn into someone less worth, and I can't respect myself. That's the divine retribution I believe in." (Ken Follett, World without end; p.725)

When we care enough to create a loving, justice filled community, it becomes a part of us. When we are cruel, or mean, that becomes a part of us too. I applaud Jimmy for his actions in supporting a loving community. - Philippe 09:54, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

oh philippe - that's a reasonably well written, and no doubt heartfelt, post - just please remember that the noble sentiments you express are in truth far more than skin deep. Sometimes loving a project means telling someone who's being a little shit that that's what they are. This is true regardless of the little-shitiness of the user in question. Beware of the stifling of reason, and dissent, and especially beware of the establishment of two-bit 'rules' ahead of the principle of creating an awesome collection of information and knowledge. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, right? - you're no doubt aware that 'love-bombing' is a sure sign of a cult.... something we must never become..... Privatemusings (talk) 10:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

That may be, but bad words are being thrown around far too easy lately. We all get upset and say things we shouldn't have said, but people also need to start realizing again, that at some point such behaviour will get them blocked or thrown out. An incident != a toxic environment around a person. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Jimmy, for what it's worth, I was dismayed when I saw this edit, and wished you'd mentioned 'conduct' rather than 'editors', especially considering the circumstances of the block. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

You are right that it would have been more gentle to talk about toxic "behaviors" rather than "personalities". And to be clear, I do not think that Bishonen is a toxic personality.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:58, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Would it be possible to (in future) bar non-Administrators from adding/deleting Retirement tags to/from retiring editors Userpages (with the exception of the retiree, of course)? GoodDay (talk) 15:03, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

How exactly do you propose doing that, I am talking technically as I can't see it, and unless you can do so its a non-starter as an idea. Thanks, SqueakBox 02:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I just saw this. How technical does it have to be. Either it's an admin or the user themselves that place the retired tag. Where does the technology come in? Jack forbes (talk) 03:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Why one earth would you want to do this? It is a tag to inform people an editor has retired. I cannot think of any reason why it should not automatically be placed on retired users, and maybe even users who have simply been inactive for a set period of time. The fact is, Bishonen called someone a little shit for doing something perfectly logical. You can have a look at this Rfa to see how far she would get if she were standing now (or heaven forbid, did the in vogue thing and stood for reconfirmation). Apparently according to her it is 'nobody's business' whether someone has retired or not [6]. What rubbish I say. MickMacNee (talk) 11:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Are not all admin privileges technical in nature? Such as the ability to block, to delete, to read delete revisions etc. To change this would set a huge, and unacceptable, precedent. And how is the non-admin to know about this ruling. Thanks, SqueakBox 05:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the responses, folks. It was just a idea I had, concerning the latest situation at Giano's userpage. GoodDay (talk) 21:58, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

we are all capable of error and folly, and should be forgiven such if we are acting in good faith. Nothing is simple. Justice is complex and thoughtful. Kindness is a lifestyle not an algorithm. What beautiful sentiments Mr. Wales. Surely your followers will quote that all over the place while they ban someone for some minor or perceived offense. But I pry thee tell me, oh philosopher king, how do you respond to the following quote?

Jimbo in the old days went through amazing amounts of pain to protect people who were perceived to be on "his side" on WP. And took, on behalf of WP, amazing amounts of reputational damage for it: think of Essjay, JzG, Jayjg, Ryulong, Raul654, Gerard, SlimVirgin, the long list of people in our "notable editors" gallery here on WR.
Sometimes these people weren't even friends of Jimbo, but Durova-style vague friends of friends, ala Weiss/Mantanmoreland who was never anybody of power on WP, but who Jimbo and Gerard set out to personally protect from the depredations of.... Patrick Byrne!! I don't think Jimbo ever even met Weiss. Hell, you'd think that a pack of Zombies and Vampires were after Weiss. But no. He was only criticized by some business exec guy in Utah who wasn't even an irrational man, much less a criminally dangerous or crazy man.
So yes, Jimbo, you've managed to tolerate and protect a lot of toxic personalities and their agendas on WP. Too often, in fact almost unerringly, when you've chosen sides, you've chosen the wrong dog in the fight. You went after a Greg Kohs or a Daniel Brandt or a Judd Bagley. Why is that, you wonder? Just your bad luck?
Well, no. What has happened is that you've chosen the "Wikipedian" in every fight as though they were some loyal member of your family. But I've got news for you: they weren't. The side you chose was just the side that happened to get to Wikipedia FIRST, and manipulate it. Because they were manipulators by nature, and they had the time to do it, because THEY HAD NO LIFE. And to you, that looked like dedication. In fact, it was mental illness at worst, and pathological lack of social attachment to the world at best.
This is what happens when you choose your loyalties by who has spent the most time on Wikipedia, Jimbo. You end up with a "family" of nuts who demand your loyalty, and have totally gamed your system. You've been "pwned".
It's always been that way in the past, and (here's the horrible part) it's set up to be that way in the future, too. And now that you know it (even assuming in best case that you read this) there's still nothing you can do about it, while WP is configured the way you designed it.

I did not write it, Milton Roe on Wikipedia Review did. I'm merely relaying to you as an interested party. We are all, indeed, flawed people who make mistakes. But one of the keys to becoming a better person is to openly acknowledge one's mistakes and try to learn from them. Often this requires brutal honesty, more than kindness. Bishonen and Giano are two such brutally honest people. For this, in my view and to that of many, they have been not simply discouraged but actively prosecuted by you and the power structure you have created. So please tell me, Mr. Wales, why I should not believe the Milton Roe's statement above is the truth?--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 15:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Because it simply isn't true? These claims of people being under my personal protection are simply false. I don't know what else to say.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:40, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Sniff sniff What about my above question? GoodDay (talk) 15:45, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

No, Jimmy, sadly there is some truth to it. You have allowed a toxic, authoritarian and outright mean-spirited group to come to power on here. A group which, for the most part, does nothing to help build the 'pedia or further its goals...they merely want to control it and bully those of us who wish to help build it or anyone who gets in their way. It is they who have created this toxic work environment of intimidation and mistrust. In order for your regime of loving kindness to prevail, this old order must be dumped en masse. Make no mistake, these people are not your friends and they are certainly not friends of Wikipedia, they care only for their own petty power. You've seen this for yourself in the past when you have crossed one of them. Meanwhile you have largely turned your back on the writers, the prolific contributors of quality content, who in fact should be running the show. This can change, however. You have the power to change it if you wish. Otherwise you will continue to get played and pwned by your own administration to the point where you will no longer be a big deal. Please think about it.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 10:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, lessee now, because it's a windy, boring and unpersuasive rant, perhaps? Serial plagiarists shouldn't be admins, Giano's latest block(s) was/were utterly wrong and he should be back and editing, Bishonen didn't merit a block, life's a bitch and then (like Lady Catherine) we die, Jimbo has goofed here and there, but I can't think of anything he's written that has an odor like that of the evidence-unencumbered cod-psychiatric flatus above. (I have no comment on the remarks within it about specific usernames/people; I've never heard of half of them and have forgotten who the others are.) Still, do leave it all in bold; somehow it's funnier that way. -- Hoary (talk) 16:04, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The Milton Roe piece quoted in bold above is a rant, but there's a reason why Roe thinks he can get away with it without being laughed out of WR. It's normal in human social behaviour for people to support those they know against those they don't know - we evolved as pack-hunters. That means it's not natural for us to treat people equally. But that kind of behaviour drives away newbies, including the next generation of good editors. I remember in another discussion I read some stats that said the average editor is around for under 2 years. So driving away potential editors will make WP stagnate and then decline. rootology's proposal is intended to reduce the incidence of in-groups ganging up on newcomers. The wording needs a lot of checking and refining, but the principle's right and necessary. --Philcha (talk) 23:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

• Comment on "identical standards" - I think the introduction of this thread is misleading by implying "identical standards". Why? Because in this situation, we had an admin that after a long drama filled ordeal lost her patience and made an attack against another. If our priority is to stop disruption, then we must ensure that those with power know not to act in such a manner and allow matters to die, or be resolved peacefully. Drama will happen, and there is little that can be done to prevent it. However, people show that they are problematic when they act in a manner that could spark it up the drama once it has ended. Many of the other admin listed tend not to do this, or, if they do, lack the sheer aggressiveness in the comments as found in this situation. Personally, I feel that more admin should be blocked for such comments, as their having power makes the comments more prone to disruption as the potential to block increases the intimidation factor and raising the words to more than just "words". However, the timing of these words separate them from other situations, which is key here. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:18, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Returning to the extended quotation which RDH provided. First, there are some names in that list which could be considered to be part of an "inner circle" on Wikipedia. However, I would define "inner circle" as those who Jimmy Wales listens to -- which means a lot less now that it did 5 years ago. (Consider this: I've made some accusations about Wales which he likely still disagrees with, & I'm still an Admin & still editting Wikipedia. If there was a "hivemind" or powerful "inner circle", my account would have been history many months ago.) Second, many of those mentioned in that post received Wales' help simply because he obviously felt they were valuable contributors who needed defending. (Slim Virgin, for example, has often been linked to a story which she doesn't want repeated. JzG & Ryulong are Admins unafraid to take on the worst troublemakers.) So AFAICS, there's no real group of people who have Jimmy Wales' protection who can't arguably be said to need it: if David Gerard or Fred Bauder, for example, ran around Wikipedia calling one & all "little shits", they'd be blocked just like anyone else. Lastly, & perhaps my most important point, the time has long since passed on Wikipedia where Wales actually understands its day-to-day, coal-face functioning. This was made clear, to me at least, with the Mzoli's Meat situation. Had Wales added one more sentence to that stub, explaining its notability, there would have never been any resulting controversy or drama; it would have been Just Another Stub. However, to anyone who didn't know the subject, it appeared to be a free advertisement for a restaurant -- something all Wikipedians are against.

Which brings us to the present matter with Bishonen. There are a number of issues here. One is her language -- which was inappropriate. However, a prompt warning would have been more appropriate than a block -- after all, assuming good faith, she might not have known how offensive "a little shit" was outside her native culture. The next is that Bishonen (1) belongs to a faction of disaffected editors, which includes Giano, (2) is very protective of her friends, & (3) many long-time Wikipedians are disaffected to varying degrees. Anyone who has followed Wikipedia's daily activities for a few years knows (3) is a common condition, although probably not why: because long-term Wikipedians have donated a lot of energy to this project, for which they rarely receive acknowledgment, let alone thanks. This leads to resentment, because these long-term members (who are also Wikipedia's institutional memory) eventually come to feel that their work is not appreciated, & after yet another thankless encounter with a troublemaker end up deeply bitter & cynical. If you see my point here, then you should not be surprised if Bishonen intentionally called Daedalus what she did, because she no longer gave a damn whether Daedalus was an established user or just someone who hadn't learned that the goal of this project was to create a useful encyclopedia.

We need to fix this problem with disaffected long-term Wikipedians, or else this incident will be only the first sparrow of a very distasteful spring. -- llywrch (talk) 21:06, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you should look upon yourself, making assumptions of others, and judging others, when you don't know what you're talking about. It's quite simple, I know we're building an encyclopedia here, and instead of assuming good faith like we're told to do, you assumed the opposite. You assumed that a established editor did not know we're building an encyclopedia. I realize I can be redundant, in regards to the former. To the latter, I did not mean any harm by adding a retired tag to an editor's userpage which had relayed that they had retired, and I did not respond well when someone told me to get the hell off the page or else.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 22:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Daedalus, will you re-read that sentence more carefully? I wasn't talking about you; I was talking about what Bishonen thought about you. If anyone should be mad at me for making claims about what she/he thinks, it would be Bishonen. And I was trying to be sympathetic towards her, so I hope she's not mad. -- llywrch (talk) 23:42, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Regarding what R.D.H. brought up above, Zero tolerance, shoot on sight is the sort of "wikilove" Jimbo supported for the Byrne/Bagley side in their conflict with Weiss; soon after this dictum was posted, Cla68 was blocked for taking a mildly questioning tone about it. *Dan T.* (talk) 23:59, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed D.T. And it looks like Jimmy has been played once again. Everybody Plays the Fool, as the old song goes...--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 12:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Provocative images on userpages

G'day Jimbo - just by chance I happen to have sent a post to foundation-l about this one a few moments ago, and swung by here to see that you're in blocking mode! I wonder if, given this, you might be inclined to do anything about this, this evening?

Ps. If you're struggling to cope with the backstory of the latest broo ha ha, you should probably at least be informed that the catalyst was a problem with a user who recently became an admin, and, it transpires, had posted your personal details (name, birthdate, address, and information about whom you share your residence with) on IRC, garnered from private access to some sort of electoral database. In all seriousness, the toxic personalities may not be so obvious, and calling folk 'little shits' is far less serious than plagiarism, and the breaching of trust on privacy issues, I reckon... Privatemusings (talk) 02:57, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

pps. the other small problem is that the user in question was behaving in ways which might lead a reasonable person using straight forward language to describe as behaviour a little shit might exhibit. Wouldn't dream of doing so myself, 'cos I'm too nice, but I thought you might like to know.... Privatemusings (talk) 03:00, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

While I am sure Jimbo will recall commenting on this matter previously on Webhamster's talk page, here is a link to the subsequent community deletion debate which closed with a WP:SNOW Keep. It would not be nice to fail to provide full references when requesting action. // BL \\ (talk) 03:24, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Geez, this again? - ALLST✰R▼^echo _{wuz here @} 04:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

PM, to mix two sayings, you're beating a dead horse about the bush. the wub "?!" 10:19, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

heh! - well I've been accused of 'equine necrophilia' a few times, but never in a specific physical area (your post has the great advantage of actually being witty, mind!). My hope here wasn't really to drag up the issues, but just that Jimbo might have been in the mood to act upon his stated positions... we'll see if that's true or not! cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 10:27, 22 May 2009 (UTC) ps. pictures of shaven women's bits don't really belong on userpages - I think you'd agree?

The problem with that userpage isn't the nudity, it's the political statement. Someone's opinions of a former US president are not appropriate content for their Wikipedia userpage, regardless of how they express those opinions. --Tango (talk) 10:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the image is inappropriate for multiple reasons. It does not reflect well on Wikipedia as a quality work environment. It is an inappropriate political statement. It has caused sufficient controversy in the community that keeping it up there strikes me as WP:POINT-y. Even so, it doesn't rise to a level that I think I should directly intervene and set policy - policy in this area is too complex and subtle for one person to be able to directly write it in a way that doesn't give rise to a lot of inappropriate damage in other directions. I merely encourage the community to think in a mature and thoughtful way about how to best deal with things like this, and to encourage Webhamster to do the right thing of his own free choice.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

False advertising I didn't see any genitalia, shaved or otherwise. Are people confusing an exposed bellybutton and belly button piercing with genitalia per chance? Seems to me there are more serious concerns to get upset about. Like bare nipples. The HORROR!!! ChildofMidnight (talk) 15:47, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Did someone mention jennatalia? >_> Since when does NOT#CENSORED apply only to article space? Considering the inappropriate things some of our most "esteemed" users here have used their user space for, such as subpages for things entirely unrelated to the building of an encyclopedia, I really don't see why we should complain about a Commons image being used on a user page. If we're ashamed of the images we have on Commons, then we need to purge some. If we're not ashamed of the images on Commons, we probably should find better things to do with our time, like improving articles, than boo-hoo'ing about an almost visible shaven 'gine on an obscure user page. لennavecia 17:06, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I find this argument unpersuasive. There are two parts to your argument as far as I can tell. I will respond to both:

1. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS - I'm sure we could come up with other examples of inappropriate content in user space, but that doesn't justify any of it, not this one, not other examples. It may, instead, indicate a need for a wider look at policy and enforcement of policy.
2. The fact that an image is appropriate in some contexts (like Commons, or in an article) does not automatically mean that an image is appropriate in user space. I don't follow the logic at all. This is not about being ashamed - it is about having a quality work environment with due respect for others.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:18, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, 1 is more about hypocrisy than otherstuffexists. Those in glass houses shouldn't cast stones and such. Ya know. As for 2, I suppose I don't see the point in getting one's panties all in was (pun intended) over such an image. Shankbone, for example, has uploaded so much non-encycopledic pornography to the project, it's staggering. Of course, much of it has been deleted now, but the fact remains that this image is extremely mild compared to much of what is, or at least was, available. I don't believe there is a policy that states freely licensed images cannot be used on user pages, for whatever reason, but please do link me if I've missed it. Additionally, what does it matter? If one does not like the image, perhaps don't return to the page. Wikipedia is not censored. That's a completely valid argument, whether you dismiss it or not. We don't cater to the delicate sensibilities of our readers, and we most certainly should not do so for our editors. لennavecia 17:28, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Let us not forget that anything which detracts from creating an environment conducive to the creation of a collaborative encyclopedia inherently detracts from Wikipedia's mission. Could this image offend some people, yes. Is it reasonable to expect such things when visiting a userpage, no. Is this image helpful in any way, no. So where does that leave us? Prodego ^talk 17:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Let us also not forget that drama-mongering does nothing to advance the project. If less time was spent complaining about irrelevancies, we'd have more time spent on article improvement. Rather than evaluate the appropriateness of a nearly nude image on a user page, why not evaluate the contributions of some editors who spend more time furthering drama than they do working on content. Let's also not forget that Wikipedia has much bigger problems than one person's user page. How about, for example, the glaring BLP problem that Jimbo and the Foundation are all but ignoring. That, to me, ranks miles higher up on the list of things to be bugging Jimbo about than some clit-tease pic on an obscure user page. لennavecia 17:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I second, pretty much word-for-word, everything Jenna just wrote in her last paragraph above. -->David Shankbone 17:40, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I've no opinion on the nudity, but I agree that there are more pressing problems. Where are we on Flagged Revisions? PM, your massive energy would be well spent pushing that. rootology/equality 17:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeedy. WP:BLPPOTENTIAL, kthx. لennavecia 17:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

see here (and a few other posts / threads....) - I'm rattling that cage a little too... hopefully we're making progress! Privatemusings (talk) 21:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

A few comments here:

1. This was all discussed at great length about a month ago, and was quite divisive because it's right on the edge where opinions diverge about whether it's appropriate or tolerable.
2. After extensive discussion the use was allowed by consensus.
3. Overall, its impact on the site is minimal as long as it's left alone.
4. No fresh rationale has been put forward for reopening this bitter and minor matter.
5. The editor who opened both discussions is formerly sitebanned, and has a history of disruptive pot-stirring that led to the simultaneous resignation of all three of his mentors and a user conduct RfC subsequent to the siteban.
6. During the last brouhaha over this matter, the editor who opened both discussions posted a photograph of an erect penis on a main noticeboard.
7. Also during the last brouhaha over this matter, I invited this editor to collaborate on a featured drive for a tasteful and encyclopedic nude, and after expressing initial interest he failed to follow up. The image is now featured, without his help.
8. This editor's positive contributions to mainspace are paper-thin.
9. These comments are posted by one of this editor's resigned former mentors.

Now I really want to resolve this amicably. Privatemusings, I respectfully request that you collapse this thread. Durova^Charge! 18:11, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure why the fuss about this picture; it isn't the virgin killer or even an offensive pic; for all we know it is a self-portrait. Thanks, SqueakBox 18:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

personally I reckon this pretty much answered my original question. Jimbo and I feel it's not a good fit for a userpage, Jimbo suggests continuing to think about it - I agree. I've cheekily collapsed durova's comments about me above, per her request, because really they're a much better fit on my talk page, not this one. Everyone is, as ever, most welcome.... Privatemusings (talk) 21:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's make absolutely certain no error in communication occurred. Privatemusings, I invited you to collapse this entire thread. Not just my comment. Durova^Charge! 22:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Is Wikipedia a bunch of tattle tales with too much free time, or are we here to edit (and protect) an online encyclopedia? Which is it for crying out loud. JBsupreme (talk) 21:27, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Do Not Criticize Anyone For Getting In Touch With Their Inner Comstock!

it is about having a quality work environment with due respect for others.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:18, 22 May 2009 (UTC) Good point. there are more pressing problems -- No one is under an obligation here to work only on the most pressing problems. Sometimes some of us want to address other problems. We're volunteers; we get interested in what we get interested in. Personally, I find it interesting that the pic's defenders have such a puritanical attitude about what the rest of us should be concerning ourselves with when we visit Wikipedia. No one should be ashamed of finding the use of that pic shameful. This is Wikipedia, dammit! We've got a right to be outraged! And I'm not even being ironic about this. There's enough staffing at this place to handle more than one outrage and build up the 'pedia at the same time. In America we have a three-day holiday weekend just starting, and I for one intend to honor the fallen soldiers who died for my right to waste my time by, in part, wasting my time. (And I'm still not being ironic about this.) -- Noroton (talk) 22:17, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Living people. Try doing something meaningful. لennavecia 06:11, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed! - Damërung ^{...ÏìíÏ...}_{_ΞΞΞ_} . --  17:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Try to avoid disparaging others for not putting time into your preferred parts of Wikipedia. Try reviewing WP:CIVIL the next time you're tempted to type Try doing something meaningful. Try to avoid giving the impression that someone hasn't done something meaningful, especially when they have a longer edit history than you have. But above all, try to do something unmeaningful. Try to relax. -- Noroton (talk) 18:02, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Strawman. لennavecia 17:38, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not thrilled about WebHamster's method of linking his sig only to his user page (with the kerfluffling, photo-manipulated snap) rather than to his user talk, but I'd guess he finds it meaningful, there's a consensus to let it slide and I think whatever pith it carries is his to bear, not en.Wikipedia's. I also think it's ok for Jimbo to say he doesn't like it. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Default sig only links to the user page solet no-ne be criticised for not linking to theirtalk page in their signature. Thanks, SqueakBox 18:50, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Default links to user and talk. --Onorem (talk) 18:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Aah, I see this has changed, always used to just link to the user page, but lets not assume everyone knows about this change, SqueakBox (talk) 19:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Though perhaps it could have been said less bluntly, Jennavecia has a point; in the time we've spent arguing about a single userpage, we could have referenced hundreds if not thousands of BLPs. We need a more efficient process to deal with disputes like these. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 18:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

David Garrick Between the Muses of ArticleSpace (who could care less) and YacketyYackSpace (who couldn't)

Isn't this more of a user-talk-page discussion on a Wikipedia problem rather than some kind of work on the resolution of a dispute? Hamster's page went to XfD and was kept, so I think the immediate decision has been made, right? But that shouldn't mean we can't discuss it as an ongoing problem. Discussing just might lead to thinking which just might bring up an idea about a better approach -- which is worth expending a bit of time and brainpower on when some people think there's an ongoing problem. Maybe I didn't say this clearly enough before: Not every moment on Wikipedia should be spent on tasks with immediate productive results. A little discussion a step or two closer to the abstract is also a good use of time. Sometimes even a lot. Now, I've got a Ken Ken puzzle to do (oh, and looks like an article to create sometime). -- Noroton (talk) 19:17, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh. It's KenKen. Nevermind. -- Noroton (talk) 01:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Cool! WebHamster swapped the sig link. Please keep in mind, this is a volunteer project, don't be too hard on editors who want to talk about stuff you could care less about. :) Gwen Gale (talk) 19:19, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

That always drives me nuts how Americans flipped from couldn't care less to could care less :) . Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:19, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Is it an Americanism? I thought it was just people getting it wrong (although the distinction is a subtle one ;)). --Tango (talk) 22:27, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Definitely, observations on it appear every now and then in Oz and UK press. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:28, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I just changed my ow sig too, having had no idea that the default sig had changed to include a link to talk, so something good can come out of all sorts of discussions and I have seen time wasted more on this page than is so today. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 22:29, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Wired Magazine: Wikipedia is collectivist.

There's an interesting article from Wired about aspects of open-source culture and online communities resembling Socialist collectivism. They specifically mention Wikipedia as an example.

Instead of gathering on collective farms, we gather in collective worlds. Instead of state factories, we have desktop factories connected to virtual co-ops. Instead of sharing drill bits, picks, and shovels, we share apps, scripts, and APIs. Instead of faceless politburos, we have faceless meritocracies, where the only thing that matters is getting things done. Instead of national production, we have peer production. Instead of government rations and subsidies, we have a bounty of free goods.

http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/17-06/nep_newsocialism

While not necessarily being Communism, there is no doubt at least that Wikipedia has a strong emphasis on community-driven decision-making. ☯  Zenwhat (talk)

I find that Wired analogy unhelpful; they seem to have missed the point that although the Soviet collectives were supposedly self-managing, targets were certainly imposed from above on a regional and State basis. There's no comparator here for that; our model is not that prescriptive and nobody is required to be an Alexey Stakhanov, although some contribute more than others due to availability of skills and time. That doesn't mean, and nor should it, that those people are entitled as of right to immunity from process or undue kudos; however, they are more likely to be clued-in as to how to write articles properly and how our processes work. That, perhaps is the meritocracy, based on experience, hence some local, and directed, wisdom here. Rodhullandemu 01:29, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Last I heard, Wikipedia editors were not nudged towards making contributions on this privately owned website at the point of a gun. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:38, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Authoritarian regimes like the Soviet Union are not the only type of Socialism or Collectivism. There have been various socialist entities, past and future, that were not violent or authoritarian. If we think of websites as being virtual "geography" (webspace?), and then consider the user-base to be the population, the analogy fits when there is social hegemony over a given webspace, except that we can't prevent people from leaving. Wikipedians do not make decisions individually; they work together as a community. Wikipedians do not compete in any fashion (at least, they're not supposed to, for things like article control, influence, etc.); they cooperate for the mutual and societal benefit. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 14:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Understood and true enough, but collaboration is not the same as collectivism. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:38, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

It's a pretty thin line when you consider the etymology of these words. Latin Communis ("in common, public, general, shared by all or many", the root of common, communism, community, etc.) Collaboratus ("to work with", root of collaboration) and Collectus ("to gather together", the root of collectivism). I'd bet that in some of the languages around the world, like French or Greek, it might be especially difficult to make a clear distinction. It's really more the connotations than the actual definitions that separate communism, communitarianism, communalism, collectivism, and collaboration. I suspect it's because "Communism" and "Collectivism" have such bad connotations which is why some people are averse to these terms, but others are quite giddy about using them. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 15:28, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia is more like ancient Rome. Care to visit the Colliseum? Jehochman ^Talk 14:35, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I always thought Wikipedia was an anarcho-syndicalist commune. MuZemike 21:11, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Wait, we're not part of a plot to control the universe? That kinda takes the fun out of it. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 22:27, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

About Jimbo's userpage (moved from User talk:Emmette Hernandez Coleman#About Jimbo's userpage)

Resolved

 – Intrusive duplicate userpage-box has been removed; move along. Jack Merridew 06:39, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi there Emmette, about the userpage bar, I think the one at the bottom is good enough without having to put another one at the top, especially how I think the one at the top kind of ruins the page's image. Though this is just my opinion. If other users agree with you having it there, then I'll except having it. Ross Rhodes (T C) ^Sign! 13:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Just because something is good enough does not mean there is not room for improvement. As I said in my edit summery "But [the userpage bar is] not at the top [of the page] where new users who would need it['s information] would see it, and I could not remove the bottom one, maybe you could". The formating, if "formating" is the correct word, could be changed to not ruin the page's image.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 13:34, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Ross Rhodes, at first I misunderstood what you meant by "kind of ruins the page's image", I understand now and have fixed it.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 13:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Cool. Shouldn't we try and put it inside the large grey border on the page, instead of on top of it? Ross Rhodes (T C) ^Sign! 13:51, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me but I do not think I can do it. Shouldn't this discussion be on User talk:Jimbo Wales?--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 14:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Probably yeah. Ross Rhodes (T C) ^Sign! 14:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Moved to User talk:Jimbo Wales.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 14:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Jack Merridew removed the userpage bar with the edit summery "-dupe {{userpage}} — too intrusive at top". Jack Merridew would you like to take part in this discussion?--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 17:40, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

So its gone. I thought that would happen. Ross Rhodes (T C) ^Sign! 17:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Jack Merridew, how is the top user bar intrusive?--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 19:24, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's remember, Jimbo Wales can override a decision we make about this issue, because this is his userpage--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 17:49, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

"Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. 2,891,459 articles in English" some of which need editing

Do you really have nothing else to do? pablo_hablo. 22:31, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I found this discussion fun. If I did not I would not have wasted my time on such a little issue.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:55, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Courtesy note

Dear Jimbo—I mentioned you and your role WRT ArbCom here. I hope you regard this as in good faith: it was intended as such. Tony (talk) 09:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)