Talk:Albert Einstein

Misquote

On his quote about what world war 4 will be fought with, he did not say it will be fought with rocks, but sticks and stones. Please correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.58.161.219 (talk) 21:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Quote about Pius XII

Einstein is sometimes quoted by defenders of Pope Pius XII for saying that the Church was one of the only institutions that kept a voice during the national-socialist Reich. The quote is interesting because it provides insight on his views on other religions than his own, especially Christianity. [1] ADM (talk) 08:58, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Have you read this ? Sean.hoyland - talk 11:22, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

It's neat that the writer can try to methodically deconstruct the quote like that. Anyways, the only thing it can really confirm is that TIME magazine really did print such a statement back in 1940. Perhaps a historian working for TIME could be able to give further clues about the quip. ADM (talk) 11:40, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I suppose the reason you bring this up is to suggest that it be added to the article. Whatever validity the quote may have, it belongs (if anyplace) in Wikiquote:Albert Einstein (not in Wikipedia). That is the place for miscellaneous quotes. —teb728 t c 19:46, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

It would add well to this article, and last time I checked Wikiquote does not have a full article on a single quote, but this is about Einstein--72.74.112.203 (talk) 14:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikiquote also doesn't have a list of quotes that Einstein probably didn't say. That seems like a good policy for this article too. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The need to emphasize Einstein's Jewish identity at the start of the article

Einstein's Jewish heritage was the most salient fact of his personal life outside of his career. Listing Einstein as "German-born" when he had to flee Nazi Germany at the height of his academic career does not do the subject justice and in fact is rather misleading. Even during WWI, Einstein stated "By heritage I am a Jew, by nationality Swiss, by conviction a human being and only a human being with no particular penchant for a state or national entity." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Archaeogenetics (talk • contribs) 09:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we could say something like

• "Albert Einstein (pronounced /ˈælbərt ˈaɪnstaɪn/; German: Albert_Einstein_german.ogg ˈalbɐt ˈaɪ̯nʃtaɪ̯n ; 14 March 1879 – 18 April 1955) was a theoretical physicist, born in Germany to Jewish parents.

Would this satisfy folks? Bigweeboy (talk) 15:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I prefer Archaeogenetics' current text. Saying "Jewish parents" would imply Jewish religion to many people rather than Jewish ethnicity. —teb728 t c 00:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me, TEB728, but I do not know why saying "Jewish parents" does not imply Jewish ethnicity. I was born to Irish parents - this makes me "Irish" Bigweeboy (talk) 12:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

In my experience most (non-Jewish) Americans believe that "Jewishness" is a religion not an ethnicity. Notice how a couple of sections up, an editor insists there is no such thing as Jewish ethnicity. Your "Irish" identity, on the other hand, doesn't automatically make you "Catholic." (Similarly most Americans think of the troubles in Northern Ireland in religious terms: They regard Nationalists [of whatever religion or irreligion] as "Catholics" and Unionists as "Protestants." What the situations have in common is that Americans are more accepting of religious pluralism than of ethnic pluralism.) —teb728 t c 23:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

To add to TEB728's comment here, I totally agree that "Jewishness" is usually seen as a religion. I know a few Jewish ("ethnicaly") people personally, and they are always very annoyed when people assume that they are a Jew by faith and not ethnically (in fact when I'm around and they introduce themselves, I can see right away that the person imagines that this is a jew by faith, so I always add the word "ethnically", and the party being introduced to usually responds with "Ahhhhh..."). I always find this expectation silly, as most people see Jews as being people who follow the religion of Judiasm. This is always what I assume, yet all of the dozens of "Jewish" people I have met, when asked where they worship, reply with "Oh I'm Jewish by family", or something similar. This often leads me to be confused what a "Jew" really is. Me and the most of America seem to assume that being a Jew means you practice the Jewish faith. While I'm sensative to what Jews themselves actually consider to be a Jew, taking the stance that someone who is "ethnically-Jewish" should be called a "Jew" will likely make most readers confused and not convey correctly the message of what Mr. Einstein's heritage actually was. This is all to say that I think the article's current wording ("ethnically Jewish") conveys perfectly to most readers that Einstein was a Jew by family and ethnicity, and not necessarily by faith. For me, when I see "Jew", I assume religion (and in fact this wording conveys no racial or family connotation to me), and when I see "ethnic Jew", I assume tradition, background, race, and family

Varkstuff (talk) 21:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I've long been a proponent of adding something like "born in Germany to a jewish family" to the first sentence of this article. IMO, leaving his national origin out of the article makes this bio differ dramatically from what is a WP standard, and ignoring his ethnic background (or religious background if people prefer to look at it that way) ignores the role in world history. It is, after all, rather difficult to explain why WWII didn't end with London as a radioactive wasteland at the end of that conflict had Einstein been born to a Christian family rather than a Jewish one. Geeman (talk) 08:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

This has been discussed oodles of time before. See the archives. I don't have very strong opinions on how exactly to state his ethnicity and heritage, but I find the argument that the fact that he had to flee the Nazis somehow removes the fact that he was born in Ulm and deeply embedded into German society and culture (he did most of his professional work in Germany and the German-speaking parts of Switzerland, published in German journals, was director of the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institute in Berlin for 18 years...) absurd. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:57, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

See my comment above. I'd say: the fewer labels, the better. The same goes for the infobox. Feketekave (talk) 17:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be the only one who thinks so. I have restored ethnicity to both the lead and the infobox. —teb728 t c 20:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I concur with TEB728. -- Avi (talk) 04:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Can either TEB728 or Avi do us a favour and define "ethnicity" for us? Also, disagreeing in the first person plural is not an argument. Reply under "Ethnicity revisited". TEB728 replied there to another user that had the same position as myself; his remark above is thus very odd. Feketekave (talk) 17:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Sure, see Ashkenazi Jew and ethnicity. -- Avi (talk) 20:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The article on ethnicity simply details different (and presumably sometimes incompatible) ways in which the word is used; it does not set out Wikipedia policy, and it also does not tell us what you mean by "ethnicity". Feketekave (talk) 13:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

There is an ethnicity tag in {{Infobox Scientist}}; do you have a reason as to why you do not want to use it? -- Avi (talk) 21:00, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

It is simplistic. See #Ethnicity Revisited. Feketekave (talk) 13:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Feketekave, Actually I replied in this section that you had that position (in reference to your post at #Ethnicity Revisited) So far as I am aware you are the only one. —teb728 t c 21:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I am afraid I do not quite understand you. Your replied in #Ethnicity Revisited to a different user who shared my position (or rather I share his or hers, since he or she spoke first). Feketekave (talk) 13:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Sorry Feketekave, I misunderstood your 7 June post. I thought you were referring to my 2 June post in this section, but I see now that you were referring to my 9 April post in the other section. The reason for my confusion was that Dp074 did not have the same position as you with regard to mentioning Jewishness in the lead, which is the topic of this section. Yes, s(he) did question listing ethnicity in the infobox but even on that did not take your position that there is no such thing as Jewishness. —teb728 t c 01:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, y'all let's pick something and stick with it. If further dicsussion is needed then remove the phrase in question and we can discuss. If not, let's leave it as is and not keep flip-flopping. This would be a good justification for an editor to lock the page until a decision can be made. Varkstuff (talk) 20:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Ethnicity Revisited

I found listing "Ethnicity" of famous people in the fact box, along with residence and nationality, quite strange. My opinion: 1) It has nothing to do with the short biographic article. If ethnicity is somehow relevant, it could be mentioned in the article body (as it is done here). 2) Even if it has, its usage should be consistent. However, articles for Einstein fellow famous physicists (Bohr, Rutherford, Planck - to name a few) do not have the ethnicity entity). 3) The ethnicity line at the fact box should be dropped. The old and broad discussion could be found here Talk:Albert_Einstein/Archive_index#Ethnicity_field_of_infobox, but I believe the case is clear enough to make a decision without studying it in details and having it as a precedent. --Dp074 (talk) 12:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

His Jewishness profoundly affected his life. The Ethnicity entry tells more about who he was than the Citizenship entry; I would say that if something should be taken out, it is the Citizenship. Bohr, Rutherford, and Planck, on the other hand, do not need a separate Ethnicity entry because their (listed) Nationality was the same as their ethnicity. —teb728 t c 17:42, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "Jewishness"; rather, there are three different thing that affected or described him (or fail to describe him) in different ways. (a) Einstein's ancestors happened to be Jews; this made others - especially antisemites - see him, at different times, as a Jew, and this affected his life. (b) Einstein did not come from a Jewish background, and seemed to have little idea of Hebrew or the Jewish religion. (c) Einstein accepted the label of "Jew", and, in fact, was a (rather romantic) Zionist for quite a bit of his life.

All of these issues can be addressed. Making a simple choice in the fact book seems crude.

On nationality: Einstein came from a rather solidly German background, and spoke and wrote German and only German to perfection; at the same time, he rejected German nationality and citizenship quite explicitly, and adopted Swiss and American nationality, both of which he took quite seriously. Feketekave (talk) 19:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

There most definitely is something called "Jewishness", Feke, the fact that it is hard to quantify in words is irrelevant in that it is very apparent throughout history that various regimes going back millenia had no problem identifying those who exhibited "Jewishness" for good or for ill. It was a very important part of Einstein's life, and should remain in the article. -- Avi (talk) 21:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Feketekave, Some of what you say is factually incorrect. (a) It is not just anti-Semites who see people of Jewish descent as having Jewish identity. My Jewish friends are emphatic about their Jewish identity, defining it by maternal descent. (b) For about a year starting when he was eleven, Einstein practiced Judaism intensely. He gave it up when he became interested in science. (Pais, Subtle is the Lord, p.38).

You ask in the other section what ethnicity means: It is a self-perceived identity that some groups of people have as belonging to the group. The concept is akin to nationality, but in this modern age of nation states there are some groups (Basques, Kurds, Chechens) whose self-perceived identity is not that of the majority group of their state. Essentially an ethnic group exists because its members say it does. Jews (I am told by Jews) are also an ethnic group: and as you say, Einstein accepted the label. —teb728 t c 05:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

An ethnic group exists because its members say it does - this sounds like a fine principle, but it leads to a circular definition. Whether some of your friends or my friends have the right to believe themselves Cathars (say) is not at stake; of course they do. Do they have the right to classify others into Cathars and non-Cathars? That may be a different issue, but I am not personally very bothered, unless it goes to extremes. This is all besides the point, though.

The point is that there are three or four different notions being superimposed here. Unless they are disaggregated, "ethnicity" is simply not an encyclopaedic category, and will not become one. That is one good reason why such tags are much less prevalent (or rather non-existent) in print encyclopaedias (and in wikipedia in most other languages, for that matter). There may be others. For example, "ethnicity" in the way you seem to use it is not a descriptive label: it need not describe a person's language or culture, but simply describes how some other people (who, exactly?) see him.

These are matters with a great deal of shades. They can be treated adequately in the text. Using tags and info-box labels for them feels just like some game of head-counting or claiming famous people. Feketekave (talk) 18:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Einstein's IQ

Since Einstein is heralded as one of the smartest people to ever live (if not the smartest), I think it would be a good idea to mention his IQ somewhere, if it's known what it was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.218.92.119 (talk) 01:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard any report of his IQ. At his level I doubt it is even measureable. —teb728 t c 01:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

You'd be surprised. Though I'm sure Einstein would have scored very highly on an IQ test, those with 'immeasurable' scores on IQ tests are virtually absent from the list of people who have attained Einstein's heights of prodigy. They don't even come close. IQ tests aren't a terribly accurate or scientific way of measuring intelligence, and they tend to ignore the creativity, innovation, or I daresay diligence that drives the world's greatest minds. That, coupled with the fact that Einstein probably never took an IQ test, irreconcilably excludes the mention of his IQ from this article.--71.187.100.24 (talk) 15:28, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I doubt he ever took an IQ test. Did they even exist back then?--Adam آدم (talk) 19:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

External Links

Hello fellow editors. I would like to open a friendly discussion on the External Links section. According to Wiki guidelines WP:EL external links should be kept to a minimum, ideally including only the link to an official site of the subject. We may want to trim the current list as some may be inappropriate for Wiki guidelines. We can decide together which ones to delete. Do you have any comments or initial feedback before I give more specific proposals on what I feel should be deleted? I will not remove anything without first discussing it here. :: (talk) 12:27, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I am going to remove this link Key Participants: Albert Einstein - Linus Pauling and the International Peace Movement: A Documentary History. It does not work. I will remove it later today. Bigweeboy (talk) 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Remove link discussed above at 2:33 EST on 4 June 2009 Bigweeboy

I am considering the removal of the link to Mathematics Genealogy Project: Albert Einstein, Mathematics Genealogy Project (a service of the NDSU Department of Mathematics, in association with the American Mathematical Society). It does not seem relevant to the page. Comments? Bigweeboy (talk) 19:50 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Removed link above discussed above. Bigweeboy (talk) 16:28 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I am going to remove some of the video links since they are not completely necessary for the article. I will do this tomorrow, Sunday, 7 June 2009. Comments? Bigweeboy (talk) 21:20 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The first video link I am removing is Footage of the 1927 Solvay conference While Einstein attended this conference, the video does not add anything to the article. Bigweeboy (talk) 19:28 8 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, since there has been nor feedback about removing the video links, I am going to remove them all except for one. 1 video is enough to give a reader a sense of the man. I will remove the videos at the end of play today. Bigweeboy (talk) 16:32 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Removed the following video links:

• Einstein in 1943
• Einstein's 1933 arrival in the US
• Einstein explains E=mc^2
• Einstein talks about nuclear energy

Bigweeboy (talk) 15:41 10 June 2009 (UTC)