Talk:Benjamin Franklin

Birthday?

Look at the first sentence: "Benjamin Franklin (January 17, 1706 [O.S. January 6, 1705] – April 17, 1790) was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America." Shouldn't the O.S. date be 1706 too? 199.164.167.161 (talk) 20:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, of course it should. Someone please change it. The change from Old Style to New Style only involved 11 DAYS, not a whole year. 69.151.11.242 (talk) 14:43, 7 May 2009 (UTC)EGAD

I noticed that independently, so have changed it. Slightly later: scratch that; there's a comment in there noting that "1705 is correct. In Old Style, new year began March 25". I have no idea whether that's true, but it's there and plausible, so I must leave it until someone better informed than myself comes along. At any rate, I thought it worth updating this talk item. Tom Yates (talk) 06:19, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

1705 is correct. It can be confusing, but this Slate article explains it more clearly than our article on Old Style and New Style dates. The traditional "correct" way to record Franklin's year of birth is 1705/6, a method called dual dating that is now rare and unfamiliar to many people. —Kevin Myers 06:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The Slate site appears to be an excellent source to aid in explaining the birthdate. So I've added it to the date in the lead, and I've also brought it up on the George Washington Talk page as well.  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  11:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The Lighting Rod

Benjamin Franklin wasn't the only inventor of the lighting rod. In the same age, it was invented by Czech priest Prokop Diviš. I think it should be written in the page. --Zik2 (talk) 23:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The lightning rod topic deals with this, as well as other sources. Tedickey (talk) 00:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

To claim that Franklin did not conduct his kite experiment, one author cited the illustrations of Franklin's kite experiment show him standing indoors, the kite string passing through an open window.

I'd say that rather proves Franklin did do his experiment, using due caution. Common sense tells us that he sent the kite up, tossed the dry ball of wound string through the open window, and did his experiment without fear of being electrocuted because he knew a dry string doesn't conduct. - - - - Richard_DuBrul@Yahoo.Com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.229.177.15 (talk) 17:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

To whom it may Concern: note 30 has a dead link. This is the living one: http://www.benjaminfranklinhouse.org/site/sections/about_franklin/PhysicsTodayVol59no1p42_48.pdf Sorry I can't edit it myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.10.155 (talk) 16:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Value of Trust

Franklin bequeathed £1,000 (about $4,400 at the time) each to the cities of Boston and Philadelphia

Could we give a rough estimate on how the amount of $4,400 in 1790 translates into today's dollars, accounting for inflation? Is it the price of a house, or the annual salary of a lawyer, or...? AxelBoldt (talk) 17:12, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

4400 americqan dollares than are equal to about 105 thousand dollars today http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/uscompare/result.php# Firl21 (talk) 17:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Illegitimate Son ?

Wikipedia says: In 1730, at the age of 24, Franklin publicly acknowledged an illegitimate son named William. But this contradicts William's birthdate of 1731. Wikipedia is way too much in a hurry to accuse Franklin of having a supposedly illegitimate son. Many think he was not illegitimate and simply a son of Franklin's common law wife. Wikipedia needs make this clear and stop pointing fingers irresponsibly. 65.32.128.178 (talk) 13:57, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

It is also possible that Franklin adopted William, or that Franklin had a previous common law marriage which left in those frontier days little or no papers. At any rate simply calling William 'illegitimate' is very irresponsible of Wikipedia. 65.32.128.178 (talk) 14:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Osrevad

Osrevad's edits were quite good as it meant removal of fancruft. Most of those things were nothing more than distracting tangents that shift the focus of the article away and weren't helping. Quality improves with Osrevad's deletions. Comments?
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:28, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

My acid test for trivia (and if it passes, it isn't trivial) is whether this tells me something I needed to know about Franklin (even by way of interpretation) that helps me understand him. And the answer is: "No". Good call. --Rodhullandemu 23:51, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Would it not be better to move the material to a minor article about BF in popular culture? I mean... BF "fans" may have compiled the list, but in the Real World people make use of BF in popular entertainment quite a lot. I don't think such a list is "unencyclopaedic". It might not tell you about BF, but it does tell about his influence. -- Evertype·✆ 09:38, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Much of the removed material was trivia, but the ones that were retained aren't that different from the removed material (and some such as Neal Stephenson's book) are relatively nonnotable even within the previous list. Tedickey (talk) 13:01, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion for clarity

Original title: Suggestion for clarity in a sentence in the article referencing "Franklin Institute of Boston" (should actually be "Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology")— title shortened to reduce width of TOC
 —  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  06:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Where it says the following in the article,

"Franklin's Boston trust fund accumulated almost $5,000,000 during that same time, and was used to establish a trade school that became the Franklin Institute of Boston.[64]"

there isn't a "Franklin Institute of Boston" but rather what is now called "Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology" (a technical tranining institute that grants Bachelors and Associate Degrees as well as Certificates in varied technical and engineering fields). The article **DOES** have a hyperlink for "Franklin Institute of Boston" which jumps to an article on the "Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology" (which is good) but this article may be better to INSTEAD say the following in the above paragraph (for the sake of clarity):

"Franklin's Boston trust fund accumulated almost $5,000,000 during that same time, and was used to establish a trade school that became the Franklin Institute of Boston (actually now called the Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology)."

. . . and where it says "Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology" in my suggested paragraph replacement, you can make that school's present-day name hyperlinked to jump to the Wikipedia article by the exact same name. That Wikipedia article on "Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology" does not even reference anything about "Franklin Institute of Boston" and neither does that school's own web site.

Signed, MENSwikiman (MENSwikiman (talk) 08:53, 7 March 2009 (UTC))

Well, MENSwikiman, you have to look a little hard, and if you take a gander at the website's faculty list, you'll find that several of the faculty received diplomas from the "Franklin Institute of Boston" (just do a simple page search on this web page) in automotive technology, electronic engineering technology and in electrical technology. So it appears that there is indeed such a school. I'm no expert, and perhaps someone from Boston can clarify; however, I would say that the school mentioned in the BF article is a very real part of the Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology; it's sort of a college within a university type of thing if I don't miss my guess. So what to do with the link in this article would be up to someone who has more of a handle on whether or not I'm correct.  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  00:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• PS. Further research uncovers this web page– Benjamin Franklin Institute of Boston. When one compares the contact telephone number on that page with the contact number on this page– Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology (up at the very top-center), one sees that they are exactly the same.

typesetter/compositor

Since I didn't know what a compositor was, I clicked on compositor and it redirected to compositing, which I am sure is not what Franklin did for a living. I have changed the wording to typesetter, which makes sense to me. If I am wrong please correct it and tell me why I am wrong on my talk page. Thank You. Griffinofwales (talk) 05:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Date of birth?

January 17, 1706 [O.S. January 6, 1705]

Shouldn't both years be 1706? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.237.138.44 (talk) 02:53, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Under the old dating style, the new year began on March 25th - so January was still in 1705. See Old Style and New Style dates. Shimgray | talk | 12:26, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

New file File:Benjamin Franklin by Joseph Siffred Duplessis.jpg

Recently the file File:Benjamin Franklin by Joseph Siffred Duplessis.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 23:46, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Marvellous, thanks! Shimgray | talk | 22:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Franklin invented the first medical catheter? Not exactly true!

See this page http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2005/mar/franklin061605.html there are some thingth you would find out the are not corect in wiki I hope it helps —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.114.91.226 (talk) 07:33, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

virtue, religion and personal beliefs

Following is a proposal for additions to the section on virtue, religion and personal beliefs. I also made a number of small changes for clarity, grouping of ideas, and a few small edits to get rid of repetition of ideas, plus one correction re the church Franklin was baptised in. since i touched almost every paragraph, I thought I would put the post here before putting it into the article. note I have not put the new references in the proper format yet. waldenpond (talk) 02:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)waldenpond

Like the other advocates of republicanism, Franklin emphasized that the new republic could survive only if the people were virtuous. All his life he explored the role of civic and personal virtue, as expressed in Poor Richard's aphorisms. Franklin was a non-dogmatic believer, who felt that organized religion was necessary for men to be good to their fellow men, but he rarely attended church himself. His faith in God was an important factor in his support for the American Revolution. (Novak, p.12,84) When Ben Franklin met Voltaire in Paris and asked this great apostle of the Enlightenment to bless his grandson, Voltaire said in English, “God and Liberty,” and added, “this is the only appropriate benediction for the grandson of Monsieur Franklin.” (Isaacson, p 354)

Franklin’s parents were both pious Puritans. (Isaacson, pp 5-18) The family attended the old South Church, the most liberal Puritan congregation in Boston, where Benjamin Franklin was baptized in 1706. (Isaacson p 15; http://www.oldsouth.org/history.html ) The Revolutionary War generation of this historic congregation include Samuel Adams,; Samuel Sewall, judge and diarist; Thomas Prince, minister and book collector; William Dawes, Paul Revere’s fellow rider in 1775. Old South Church played a significant role in the revolution through the bold actions of the Sons of Liberty at the Old South Meeting House. There, in 1773, Samuel Adams gave the signal for the “war whoops” that started the Boston Tea Party. As poet John Greenleaf Whittier wrote, “So long as Boston shall Boston be, And her bay tides rise and fall, Shall freedom stand in the Old South Church, And plead for the rights of all.” (; http://www.oldsouth.org/history.html)

Franklin’s Puritan upbringing was a central factor throughout his life, as a philanthropist, civic leader and key player in the Revolutionary War. (Novak pp 12,26,42,84,173-5,218n2,242n63; Isaacson, pp 10,25,26,31,49,59,92,102,486,489,490) Franklin rejected much of his Puritan upbringing: belief in salavation, hell, Jesus Christ’s divinity, and indeed most religious dogma. He retained a strong faith in God as the wellspring of morality and goodness in man, and as a Providential actor in history responsible for American independence. (Isaacson, p. 486; Novak pp 11-12, 42, 84, 173-5, 218n2, 242n63) His faith in God was an important factor in his Franklin’s support for the American Revolution, as it was to most of the founding generation. (Novak, pp11-12) As Franklin wrote, “Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God.” (Novak, p.12)

Ben Franklin’s father, a poor chandler, owned a copy of a book, Bonifacius: Essays to Do Good, by the famous Purtian preacher, and family friend, Cotton Mather, which “Franklin often cited as a key influence” on his life. (Isaacson, p 26) “”If I have been,” Franklin wrote to Cotton Mather’s son seventy years later, “a useful citizen, the public owes the advantage of it to that book.” Franklin’s first pen name, Silence Dogwood, paid homage both to the book and to a famous sermon by Mather.” (Isaacson, p26) The book preached the importance of forming voluntary associations to benefit society. Cotton Mather personally founded a neighborhood improvement group, that Franklin’s father joined. “Franklin picked up his penchant for forming do-good associations from Cotton Mather and others, but his organizational fervor and galvanizing personality made him the most influential force in instilling this as an enduring part of American life.” (Isaacson, p102)

It was Ben Franklin who during a critical impasse during the Constitutional Convention, 28 June 1787, introduced the practice of daily common prayer at the Convention, with these words:

“… In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. … And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance.

I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: …I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.” (http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/benfranklin.htm )

Franklin briefly belonged to a Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia. Shortly thereafter, he became an enthusiastic supporter of one of America’s great evangelical ministers, George Whitefield, “the most popular of the Great Awakening’s roving preachers.” (Isaacson, p110) Franklin did not subscribe to Whitefield’s theology, but he admired Whitefield for exhorting people to worship God through good works. Franklin printed Whitefield’s sermons on the front page of his Gazette. He arranged to publish all of Whitefield’s sermons and journals. Half of Franklin’s publications in 1739-41 were of Whitefield, and helped the success of the evangelical movement in America. Franklin was a lifelong friend and supporter of Whitefield, until his death in 1770. (Isaacson pp107, 110, 112, 113)

When he stopped attending church, Franklin wrote in his autobiography, "...Sunday being my studying day, I never was without some religious principles. I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that He made the world, and governed it by His providence; that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue rewarded, either here or hereafter." (http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/111frank2.html

Franklin retained a lifelong commitment to the Puritan virtues and political values he had grown up with, and through his civic work and publishing, he succeeded in passing these values into the American culture permanently. He had a “passion for virtue.” (Isaacson p 485) These Puritan values included his devotion to egalitarianism, education, industry, thrift, honesty, temperance, charity and community spirit. (Isaacson p. 149, 92,486,490) Franklin’s desire to teach these values was itself something he gained from his Puritan upbringing, with its stress on “inculcating virtue and character in themselves and their communities.” (Isaacson p 10,102,489) These Puritan values and the desire to pass them on, were one of Franklin’s quintessentially American characteristics, and helped shape the character of the nation. Max Weber considered Franklin's ethical writings a culmination of the Protestant ethic, which ethic created the social conditions necessary for the birth of capitalism.

One of Franklin's famous characteristics was his respect, tolerance and promotion of all churches. Referring to his experience in Philadelphia, he wrote in his autobiography, "new Places of worship were continually wanted, and generally erected by voluntary Contribution, my Mite for such purpose, whatever might be the Sect, was never refused." “He helped create a new type of nation that would draw strength from its religious pluralism.” (Isaacson p 93ff). The first generation of Puritans had been intolerant of dissent, but by the early 1700’s, when Franklin grew up in the Puritan church, tolerance of different churches was the norm, and Massachusetts was known, in John Adam’s words, as “’the most mild and equitable establishment of religion that was known in the world.’” (Bailyn, 1967, p. 248) The evangelical revivalists who were active mid-century, such as Franklin’s friend and preacher, George Whitefield, were the greatest advocates of religious freedom, “claiming liberty of conscience to be an ‘inalienable right of every rational creature.’” (Bailyn, p 249) Whitefield’s supporters in Philadelphia, including Franklin, erected “a large, new hall, that…could provide a pulpit to anyone of any belief.” (Isaacson, p. 112) Franklin’s rejection of dogma and doctrine and his stress on the God of ethics and morality and civic virtue, made him the “prophet of tolerance.” (Isaacson, p 93ff)

Although Franklin's parents had intended for him to have a career in the church, Franklin as a young man adopted the Enlightenment religious belief in Deism, that God’s truths can be found entirely through nature and reason.(Isaacson p. 46) "I soon became a thorough Deist." As a young man he rejected Christian dogma in a 1725 pamphlet, which he later saw as an embarrassment, A Dissertation on Liberty and Necessity, Pleasure and Pain., while simultaneously asserting, God is “all wise, all good, all powerful.” (Isaacson, p. 45) He defended his rejection of religious dogma with these words: "I think opinions should be judged by their influences and effects; and if a man holds none that tend to make him less virtuous or more vicious, it may be concluded that he holds none that are dangerous, which I hope is the case with me." After the disillusioning experience of seeing the decay in his own moral standards, and those of two friends in London whom he had converted to Deism, Franklin turned back to a belief in the importance of organized religion, on the pragmatic grounds that without God and organized churches, man will not be good. (Isaacson, p 46, 486)

In 1757 he wrote Thomas Paine, criticizing his manuscript, The Age of Reason: "For without the Belief of a Providence that takes Cognizance of, guards and guides and may favour particular Persons, there is no Motive to Worship a Deity, to fear its Displeasure, or to pray for its Protection….think how great a Proportion of Mankind consists of weak and ignorant Men and Women, and of inexperienc'd and inconsiderate Youth of both Sexes, who have need of the Motives of Religion to restrain them from Vice, to support their Virtue, and retain them in the Practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great Point for its Security; And perhaps you are indebted to her originally that is to your Religious Education, for the Habits of Virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it."

According to David Morgan, Franklin was a proponent of religion in general. He prayed to "Powerful Goodness" and referred to God as "the infinite". John Adams noted that Franklin was a mirror in which people saw their own religion: "The Catholics thought him almost a Catholic. The Church of England claimed him as one of them. The Presbyterians thought him half a Presbyterian, and the Friends believed him a wet Quaker." Whatever else Franklin was, concludes Morgan, "he was a true champion of generic religion."

In 1790, just about a month before he died, Franklin wrote a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University, who had asked him his views on religion:

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble....

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed a committee that included Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams to design the Great Seal of the United States. Franklin's proposal featured a design with the motto: "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God." His design portrayed a scene from the Book of Exodus, with Moses, the Israelites, the pillar of fire, and George III depicted as Pharaoh.

At age 20, Franklin wrote his own epitaph:

                        The body of
                   B. Franklin, Printer
              (Like the Cover of an Old Book
                   Its Contents torn Out
         And Stript of its Lettering and Gilding)
                Lies Here, Food for Worms.
              But the Work shall not be Lost;
       For it will (as he Believ'd) Appear once More
             In a New and More Elegant Edition
                   Revised and Corrected
                      By the Author.
                             

Franklin's actual grave, however, as he specified in his final will, simply reads "Benjamin and Deborah Franklin."

This is very good information, and it should go in the article. Ocanter (talk) 05:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I provided some fuller context regarding Franklin's brief flirtation with Deism. I feel the earlier language misrepresented the source. I also changed phrases like "attacked Christian principles," because that is not what the cited sources are doing. The fuller context should help make this clear. Ocanter (talk) 05:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I like your revision of the paragraph better than my own, so please do make the revisions when you have a chance. Ocanter (talk) 06:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Skip to TOC template

The {{Skiptotoctalk}} template has been added to the top of this Talk page for those who want to "get right down to it".  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  03:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Biographies

{{editsemiprotected}}

The Biographies contains the line
Mark Skousen. The Compleated Autobiography by Benjamin Franklin (2005) told in Franklin's own words.
Which contains a TYPO
Compleated should be Completed
TheGreatAwesomeness (talk) 01:06, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

 Not done If you try editing the section, just beside the typo word "compleated" is a hidden comment: <!-- not a misspelling -->. I don't know why it is not a typo but it is advisable not to change it. Thank you for bringing it to attention, --Srinivas 06:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Missing from this article

1. An extensive discussion of the Pennsylvania Gazette's influence on journalism. 2. Some acknolwedgement that the man was a womanizer. It's not a secret. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.201.49 (talk) 19:11, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

In 1751, when Lancaster, Pennsylvania was the largest inland city in the world, Benjamin Franklin established the first print shop in the city, founding a local industry that remains a significant part of Lancaster's economy. Ben partnered with Quaker printer James Chattin in a precursor to today's franchising operations, providing the equipment and paying one third of the expenses in exchange for one third of the profit. He had the same arrangement with printers in New York, New Haven, Annapolis, Charleston, and Antigua. Chattin was unsuccessful in attracting trade, and was replaced with Heinrich Miller and Samuel Holland. In 1753, Franklin sells out to Holland for 200 Pounds Sterling, the same amount he used to establish Franklin College, precursor of Franklin and Marshall. In 1754, he takes back the print shop and rents it to William Dunlap, who brings in his nephew, John Dunlap, from Ireland to apprentice in the shop. In 1757, Franklin moves to England, and William Dunlap moves to Philadelphia to succeed him as postmaster. Meanwhile, John Dunlap acquires some renown, and becomes the first to print the Declaration of Independence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.131.100 (talk) 19:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

President of Pennsylvania

Special balloting conducted October 18, 1785 unanimously elected Franklin the sixth President of the Supreme Executive Council of Pennsylvania, replacing John Dickinson. The office of President of Pennsylvania was analogous to the modern position of Governor. It is not clear why Dickinson needed to be replaced with less than two weeks remaining before the regular election.

John Dickinson was elected counsellor for the County of Philadelphia October 8, 1782, and his term as counsellor, i.e. member of the Executive Council, expired three years later as required by the Constitution of Pennsylvania (1776), Sect. 19. According to the legal norms existing in the State at that time, Dickinson's term as counsellor (and subsequently as President of the Executive Council) expired on the day of General Election held on the second Tuesday of October (Constitution 1776, Sect. 17), October 11, 1785. There was no need to "replace" Dickinson. Incidentally, Franklin's term as President ended October 14, 1788 (NOT December 1, 1788 as indicated in the left column under his portrait).

--arch_editor (talk) 12:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Regarding See Also sections...

See WP:SEEALSO from the Manual of Style... "This section should generally not contain links that appear in the body text or in navigation boxes" In general, the "See Also" section is reserved for related topics that are not otherwise Wikilinked in the text. All of the ones I removed are clearly Wikilinked in the main text, in some cases several times. I will be presently removing them again unless you would care to work to have the manual of style changed so that this is not part of it. --Jayron32.talk.say no to drama 17:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for coming and discussing this, Jayron. Here's the thing: At some point in time a past editor thought it was important and appropriate to include those links in the See also section, perhaps so readers would not have to "hunt" for them. Since the words "generally" and "in general" are used in the MoS, it seems that WP:Preserve prevails and the links ought to remain in the See also section. So I would like to take this discussion to the Talk:Benjamin Franklin page to see if there is a consensus to remove the links. I will await your response to make sure you're in agreement to move the discussion.

 —  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  18:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

PS. I just checked and saw that you've already removed the links again, and you included a link to my Talk page. Since it is more appropriate to discuss this sort of thing on the article's Talk page, I shall go ahead and move this discussion to the BF Talk page to see how other editors feel about this struggle between WP:SEEALSO and WP:Preserve.

I was just doing some general MOS fixes at Benjamin Franklin; and I was trying to keep the See Also section compliant with the MOS. Personally, I am not sure that WP:PRESERVE makes any sense here, since no information is being lost. WP:PRESERVE is not about maintaining the extisting article without improving it; it is merely about not losing existing information. The removed links are clearly linked, often several times, in the text elsewhere, some in the section immediately preceding the See Also section. It is also not immediately apparent why all of those particular links are in the See Also section as opposed to other links from the text. I think that some, such as Founding Fathers of the United States may be worth relinking in the See Also section, but there were others that were not really all that key to understanding Benjamin Franklin, and probably served little purpose as they were clearly. Let's return that one, and discuss any other links you think may be relevent. See Also should not be a random set of tangentally related topics, but like anything else in the article, should be considered for relevence. --Jayron32.talk.say no to drama 03:33, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

After thinking about it, I concur with you Jayron. My main concern here was readers having to hunt through a rather long article for a link they couldn't quite remember. I know I've done this in the past, and when found, I've sometimes added the link to the See also section so it would be easier to find for other readers. And yet I do see the wrong in this. Thank you for the education!

 —  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  15:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Ben Franklin Time Management

Ben Franklin was a master of time management and personal productivity. There's a link that I'd like to recommend be placed on the Ben Franklin page. It's a link to a mini-course on his self-developed system of productivity.

Here's the link: http://improveyourself.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=1:iycategory&id=93:mini-course-ben-franklin-time-management

I did not find that link useful. The subject is one that perhaps could have a section in the article. SunCreator (talk) 13:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Date Franklin criticized Thomas Paine?

The article, as of September 2, 2009 says that Franklin criticized Thomas Paine's [/u]The Age of Reason[/u] in 1757. This is clearly impossible since Paine published [/u]The Age of Reason[/u] well after the drafting of the US Constitution in 1787. The date is definitely inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Numberonesurvivor (talk • contribs) 22:24, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

This article says "In 1757 he wrote Thomas Paine, criticizing his manuscript, The Age of Reason", yet the wiki article on The Age of Reason says it was published starting in 1794. The wiki article on Thomas Paine gives 1793. It seems the 1757 in the Franklin articles is inaccurate. Dclcackle (talk) 03:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Checked the source material for that quote, which is here (cite 89 in the article): [1]. It says "date uncertain" and there appears to be no basis for the 1757 date, so I changed the article to remove the date. --Jayron32 04:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Staying with Charles Darwin?

The article states that Benjamin Franklin stayed with Charles Darwin at Lichfield. However cross referencing against Darwin's article shows that he wasn't born until the 1800s, which was after Franklin's death. Therefore I would suggest that this information must be erroneous.

See the below hyperlink for the dates of Darwin's birth and death.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/darwin_charles.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.50.96.14 (talk) 10:27, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Darwin wasn't born when Franklin was alive so to say that Benjamin Franklin stayed with Charles Darwin at Lichfield is complete rubbish. I will remove and investigate. SunCreator (talk) 11:09, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Seems that an editor has read that Benjamin Franklin met Dr Darwin and assumed that Dr Darwin was Charles Darwin. Clearly not so. SunCreator (talk) 11:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Correct. Mea culpa. It was a bad assumption on my part - thank you for spotting this and correcting it. It appears that it was most probably Charles Darwin's grandfather, not Charles himself. I've corrected the text according to the source but it would be nice to confirm that it was in fact Erasmus Darwin he stayed with. --HighKing (talk) 15:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Life in France

The Life in France section is way too short - he spent almost 10 years of his life there; it warrants more than the one small paragraph. --RossF18 (talk) 23:52, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

llENGLAND?????

it doesnt say in Articles Related to Benjamin Franklin that he was a ambassador to ENGLAND???????????????????? johnjay and rich fan 67.101.189.131 (talk) 18:04, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Then he walked down the street. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.248.150.240 (talk) 19:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Silence Doogood

Why is there a lack of information on this page about the Silence Doogood letters? Why has no one brought this to attention, and/or, written anything into the article about this? Sadly, I only know of the letters, however, and lack the sufficent knowledge to write out anything but a rough idea. 24.206.252.254 (talk) 20:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Ben way gay and transgendered at the age of 15. Not often noted in historical documents was his penchant for young boys delivering the mail or the newspaper. His wife, Mildred impersonated him the remainder of his known history after he committed suicide at the age of 18. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.174.15.157 (talk) 05:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Ben Franklins invencten

Ben Franklin invented a lightning rod because there was alot of fires.He invented it so there will