User talk:Surtsicna

Welcome!

Hello, Surtsicna, and welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages you might find helpful:

• Introduction
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• Manual of Style
• Also feel free to make test edits in the sandbox.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, please see our help pages, and if you can't find what you are looking for there, please feel free to leave me a message or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will drop by to help. SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 17:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Jordanian Royal family tree

I have omitted the patronymics (bin Abdullah etc) because they are obvious from the family tree. Wives (only wives of Kings) wouldn't be too difficult to show on here, but at your request I have left them out. BartBassist (talk) 17:20, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Abdullah I 1882-1951 Emir 1923-46 King 1946-51

Talal 1909-1972 King 1951-52

Nayef 1914-1983

Hussein 1935-1999 King 1952-99

Ali 1941-

Asem 1948-

Muhammad 1940-

Hassan 1947-

Abdullah II 1962- King 1999-

Faisal 1963-

Ali 1975-

Hamzah 1980-

Hashim 1981-

Talal 1965-

Ghazi 1966-

Rashid 1979-

Hussein 1994-

Hashem 2005-

Omar 1993-

Abdullah 2007-

Hussein 1999-

Muhammad 2001-

Abdullah 2001-

Thank you very much! It's great, as always! Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Howdy, I think ya's boo boobed on Crown Prince Hussein. GoodDay (talk) 20:46, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Deleted the simpler version, now that I am happy with the more complicated one. Corrected the link for Crown Prince Hussein. Added Nayef bin Abdullah I and his two sons. BartBassist (talk) 12:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Wow, Bart, you went to a lot of work. It looks really impressive. Surtcsicna, I've an idea. Seeing as there is quite a group of us who regularily edit articles on royals and the nobility such as you, Jack1755, Frania, David, as well as myself, I think we should start a Royalty/Nobility project. This way, we can monitor what everyone is working on and if, for some reason, one of us is unable to complete a new article, infobox, whatever, one of us can help out. Today, for example, I started an infobox but before I completed it, I lost my server connection. This would also allow articles to be corrected for errors, typos, etc. What do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:51, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

There is Wikipedia:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility. We could join that group. Surtsicna (talk) 17:35, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

The links between the Hashemite family trees are most interesting. The below is taken from this site, and dates can be found by navigating from here. BartBassist (talk) 17:33, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Not only are their links interesting, but their ancestry is interesting too. Did you know that the Hashemite family are the agnatic descendants of Fatimah, the only child of the Prophet Muhammad who survived him and had children of her own? Surtsicna (talk) 17:39, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, they claim to be. Most European royal families claim to be descended from King David, but I doubt they can prove it ;) BartBassist (talk) 17:49, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

It's very likely that their claim is true, unless, of course, wife of someone in the line was naughty. See this line of descent. Surtsicna (talk) 18:08, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

You're probably right - I'd forgotten how much more recent Muhammad was than someone like King David. Anyway, I'm fairly pleased with the family tree below, so I'm thinking of modifying it to make it suitable for the page on the monarchy of Iraq. Once the job is done fully, the tree below and the tree above should between them show all the male-line descendants of Ali bin Nasser, i.e. all the people theoretically eligible to inherit the throne of Jordan. BartBassist (talk) 15:42, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

You remember that you once looked at my family tree of the Greek royal family? For the moment I am simply developing the below family tree along similar lines, trying to uncover links within the family. The innovation of representing spouses in the same box, with descent lines for both spouses (with the husband's line on the left and the wife's on the right), has allowed me to condense this family tree, though obviously it breaks down where somebody has had more than one spouse. Note that, among other things, this family tree now shows all four grandparents, and all four great-grandfathers, of Faisal II of Iraq. BartBassist (talk) 17:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Muhammad III 1767-1858 (37th generation desc. of Muhammad)

Abdullah Kamil Pasha ?-1877

Abdullah Pasha 1845-1908

Ali Pasha 1833-1871

Hussein bin Ali 1854-1931 r.1917-24

Nasser bin Ali 1863-?

HEJAZ

IRAQ

JORDAN

(IRAQ)

Ali Pasha 1859-~1932 m. Rahma bint Ali

Salim Pasha

Ali 1879-1935 r.1924-25 m. Nafissa Khanum 1886-1958

Rakan

Faisal I 1883-1933 r.1921-33 m. Huzaima bint Nasser 1885-1935

Abdullah I 1882-1951 r.1946-51 m. Musbah bint Nasser 1885-1961

Jamil Ali ?-1938

Zeid 1898-1970 (r.1958-70) m. Fahrelnissa Zeid

Hussein 1918-1998 m. Badia bint Ali 1920-

Ahmad Hazim m. Jalila bint Ali 1923-55

Abdullah 1913-1958 Regent of Iraq 1939-53

Abdiya bint Ali 1907-1958

Talal 1909-1972 r.1951-52 m. Zein al-Sharaf 1916-1994

Hussein 1902-1982 m. Maqbula 1921-2001

Ra'ad 1936- (r.1970- ) m. Margaretha Lind

Azza 1906-1968 m. Anastassios Haralambides

Raifia 1910-1934

Rajiha 1907-1959 m. Abdul Jabbar Mahmud

Ghazi 1912-1939 r.1933-39 m. Aliyah bint Ali 1911-1950

Zeid 1964-

Firas 1969-

Fahrelnissa 1981-

Huzaima 1940- m. Ghazi 1939-

Faisal II 1935-1958 r.1939-58

Hussein 1935-1999 r.1952-99

Mired 1965-

Faisal 1975-

This thing which I have created above is now aesthetically hideous because I have kept adding to it; I have therefore retrieved an old version from the userpage history. Sorry for cluttering the page. BartBassist (talk) 22:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Hussein bin Ali 1854-1931 Emir of Mecca 1908-17 King of Hejaz 1917-24

Nasser bin Ali 1863-? Sharif of Mecca

Ali 1879-1935 Sharif of Mecca and King of Hejaz 1924-25

Faisal I 1883-1933 King of Syria 1920 King of Iraq 1921-33 m. Huzaima bint Nasser 1885-1935

Abdullah I 1882-1951 Emir of Jordan 1923-46 King of Jordan 1946-51 m. Musbah bint Nasser 1885-1961

Jamil 'Ali ?-1938 Sharif of Mecca

Zeid 1898-1970 Pretender as King of Iraq 1958-70

Abdullah 1913-1958 Regent of Iraq for Faisal II 1939-53

Ghazi 1912-1939 King of Iraq 1933-39 m. Aliyah bint Ali 1911-1950

Talal 1909-1972 King of Jordan 1951-52 m. Zein al-Sharaf 1916-1994

Ra'ad 1936- Pretender as King of Iraq 1970-

Faisal II 1935-1958 King of Iraq 1939-58

Hussein 1935-1999 King of Jordan 1952-99

Zeid 1964- Jordanian Ambassador to the UN and USA

Dispute

Hi Surtsicna, could I get your help with the resolution of this dispute? Thanks, -- Jack1755 (talk) 11:13, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you -- Jack1755 (talk) 14:02, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Taksen is petitioning you on MT's talk page. We can't allow the Archduchess to be subsumed into Taksen's yolk like the poor Grand Duke! -- Jack1755 (talk) 14:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Monarch to royalty

Hey. Alright, I don't get why you changed the infobox from "monarch" to "royalty" on David II of Scotland, but it's screwed up some of the info. For instance, it no longer shows that he was Earl of Carrick. So what's the reason? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:26, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, but a recent edit of yours to the article Talk:James I of Scotland has an edit summary that appears to be inaccurate or inappropriate. Please use edit summaries that accurately tell other editors what you did, and feel free to use the sandbox for any tests you may want to do. Thank you. Your edits to the talk page are legitimate, but your edit summary is unhelpful. Some people find the term "bitch" offensive, and this adds an unnecessarily heated tone to the discussion. PatGallacher (talk) 22:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, what edit summary? I never edited Talk:James I of Scotland. Surtsicna (talk) 22:20, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Hey, I responded on my page ... just letting you know. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I meant Talk:James I of England. PatGallacher (talk) 00:08, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Margaret of France

I didn't realize the issue with the two Margarets. Feel free to move it back, I suppose, but such odd parenthetical disambiguation is certainly annoying. I suspect most people wouldn't really think of Henry's wife as a "real" queen, since her husband isn't listed on the canonical list of monarchs, but I know historians would. So do as you please. TysK (talk) 23:58, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello

Hi Surtsicna, how are you? I've been creating and expanding articles on polish nobility. I've joined the WikiProject:Poland and Royalty and Nobility. You should join the royalty and nobility one. Thanks--David (talk) 14:50, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Maria Theresa of Spain

Hello Surtsicna, I added some comments to the discussion page of "Maria Theresa of Spain" (wife of Louis XIV of France). Perhaps you would like to join since you were also part of the discussion sometime ago. Besides, you seem to be more reasonable than the other person discussing there. Regards, DanyMountbatten (talk) 17:39, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Johanna of Austria

Hello, Surtsicna. You have new messages at Jack1755's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Hello, Surtsicna. You have new messages at Jack1755's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Maria Theresa

Thanks! And, of course, congrats! You can speak Bosnian? lol. I didn't know that! I think the English MT almost meets FA criteria, All it needs is some alt text for the images. -- Jack1755 (talk) 22:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

LOL. Crafty Surtsicna! Ah, I established that after some reasonable snooping around over at the Bosian Wikipedia, Surt', or should I say Amsal? LOL. -- Jack1755 (talk) 23:25, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Walls of Dubrovnik

Hello, Surtsicna. You have new messages at Laurinavicius's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Maria

Sorry, I can speak very good German, it would however be handy if the font of the text was readable, it looks like a load of worms. Could she be the daughter of Elizabeth of Serbia, who you said married a certain "Louis". I'll have a look around and get back to you. Did I tell you I've created the article on Elizabeth of Kuyavia's father? Also I've added the banesses to the bosnian royals. Cheers--David (talk) 18:39, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't find anything. I'll ask some people about speaking german--David (talk) 18:44, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Anna Maria Luisa, Electress Palatine of the Rhine

Hello, Surtsicna. You have new messages at Jeanne boleyn's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Hey Surtsicna! Kako ste? Could I get your opinion on the Medicean-Rhenish legal predicament (as linked above)? Hvala, -- Jack1755 (talk) 02:02, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi Surt'. We haven't heard from you in a while. Are you ok? -- Jack1755 (talk) 19:52, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Glad to hear you're back! It has since been archived, here is the new link: User_talk:Jeanne_boleyn/Archive_5#Anna_Maria_Luisa.2C_Electress_Palatine_of_the_Rhine

-- Jack1755 (talk) 18:42, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Re: Nele Roderburg

Not nameless, but I don't think the family had publicly released the name since the Roderburgs are just very extended members of the Swedish RF. I got it from here via Nobiliana and Hein is usually in contact directly with the families, so it is accurate. Morhange (talk) 11:35, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Imperial and royal titles

Hello and thank you for your reply to my postings. My opinion is that the section you referred me to is vast labour to little effect. Sorry. Headings should be devised on the basis of how a person was known by most people in the period of his or her renown. Thus, "Mary of Teck" may have a certain simplicity to it, but was there never another Mary of Teck? And if not, surely some of the titles devised are ambiguous. "Queen Mary, consort of George V, King of Great Britain" was unique and always will be. To take another example, surely another Elizabeth Woodville is alive today (more likely several), but no one named "Queen Elizabeth, consort of Edward IV, King of England" will ever exist again. And how does the current British consort fair in the titles game? Not "Philip of Greece". "Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh" is rather more posh than "Mary of Teck." And how about "Queen Fabiola of Belgium?" The current practice is inconsistent bordering on chaotic. Again, my apologies if this seems blunt. But I wanted to give you a quick reply. My very best wishes to you for taking this area of discussion seriously. Torontonian1 (talk) 02:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Alice of Bourbon Parma is a Spanish Royal as Infanta (Spanish Royal Family Template)

Princess Alicia of Bourbon-Parma is a Spanish Infanta (Princess) by Marriage. See article. Ducal Titles are used in Royal Families Navigation Boxes (Infante Carlos is showed as Duke of Calabria. Alicia has Spanish Royal Status as Infanta. She isn't well-known in Spain and most Spaniards don't know Infanta Alicia.

--Proof02 (talk) 18:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Royalty to Monarch

Hello. Did as you suggested. Thanks. --Bill Reid | (talk) 20:40, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Hello

Hello Surtsicna, how are you? What have you been working on recently? Have any new royal mysteries? I've been working on the Masovian branch of the House of Piast. I've also been working on Catherine of Hungary mother of Anna of Swidnica, I still can't find out which queen was her mother though I've proved she was a hungarian princess. I've also found out that one reason why Albert II of Germany married Elisabeth of Bohemia, because Catherine of Bosnia was her great-grandmother and so layed claims to some lands. Thank You--David (talk) 20:09, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Coronation of the Russian monarch article

Thanks so much for starting the Coronation of the Russian monarch article a few months ago. I hadn't even noticed it until a couple of days ago, and I've spent the last couple of days expanding it significantly, with several images, a table of coronatons with dates, details of the ceremony itself, a multimedia section, and a list of references. As a royalty afficianado (sic!?) yourself, and since you were the originator of the article, I'd be interested in your opinion of it. Some might say there's too many illustrations, but I think not; all illustrate pertinent portions of the article, and all are really wonderful portraits or photos in large size when expanded. I'm still "tweaking" it a bit, but would be very interested in your opinion of it, if you have a moment. Thanks and happy new year!! - Ecjmartin (talk) 22:16, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply! I deeply appreciated your comments, and am glad you like what I've done with the article. I'm also glad to know that you think there's not too many images there; personally, I think they are all good images, and really enhance the readability and enjoyability of the article. I appreciated your suggestions on the article's talk page; consult my replies there and tell me what you think. I changed all of the titles from "Emperor" and "Empress" to "Tsar" and "Tsaritsa," except as noted on the talk page. I also inserted an extra paragraph into the opening section explaining the "Emperor" vs. "Tsar" thing and that this article uses the latter title (and why it chooses to). Let me know what you think; if you have any objections to my approach or what I wrote there, or suggestions for something better, please feel free to let me know! Thanks again! - Ecjmartin (talk) 03:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

User: Bosnian Royal Family

Thanks for correcting the links. Now I would appreciate if you stayed away from a private space. Bosnipedian (talk) 15:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

If you did not have personal interest/agenda, then you would not have been snooping around. You are way too nosy for someone who poses as an independent contributor to open sources. You remind me of a self-proclaimed lord of all Bosnia pages, but I am not the one who will handle your issues here. Bosnipedian (talk) 16:12, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Sockpuppet

I suggest opening a investigation as it seems they are likely puppets. ◅ P  R  O  D  U  C  E  R _(TALK) 22:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC) Good job on getting rid of the sockpuppet but now he's spamming his imaginary support through multiple ips. ◅ PRODUCER _(TALK) 22:30, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Peerage articles

I don't think those "Line of succession" additions you have made to a number of peerage articles are a good idea. Naming the heir apparent or heir presumptive is enough for Wikipedia. This isn't Burke's Peerage after all. Tryde (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Help!

Hello Surtsicna, I've been back creating articles for the Masovian branch of the House of Piast and I've stumbled on a puzzle. I've been looking at the final members of the family before Masovia became part of Poland. There was four children born to Konrad III Rudy and Anna Radziwiłł: Anna of Masovia, Janusz III of Masovia, Stanislaus I of Masovia and Sophia.

Look at this image [1] Sophia is not on it for some reason and she did live well into adulthood. The image is of Anna and her brothers, but Sophia is not on it and their referred to the last Masovians. Sophia was not even the first of the four to die plus she married and had children, look at these [2] [3]. Jeanne, do you know anything about Sophia or somewhere where I could find some answers because it's bugging me. I know after Sophia and the brothers died Anna tried to claim Masovia but wasn't allowed it because she was a woman and her only child was female. Though Sophia's children could have claimed it but for some reason they didn't. Did Sophia fall out with her family?

I've found out that Sophia and Anna where the final siblings living so Sophia could've claimed Masovia for herself and her children but she didn't and this is more reason for her to be in the painting. I need answers! Can you help me?--David (talk) 16:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank You for your help, the thing is Sophia was the eldest child so she would have been the heiress to her brothers, either that or this image of (Anna?) may actually be a misidentification and it may actually be of Sophia. Say if her name was Sophia Anna or Anna Sophia, sometimes people can get mixed up. I'm planning on expanding their articles and I'm hoping to create one for Sophia, the lost sister as I've called her. Sorry for including Jeanne in the message, I sent her the same one but she doesn't know anything either, do you know of anywhere where there may be some answers or someone else I could ask? Thanks again!--David (talk) 20:04, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

validity of this image file

For File:Boricevic_dynasts_Bosnia_sm.jpg, could you check it out and comment at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bosnian_Royal_Family? Is the information correct or is it part of the hoax? Please comment under "note to the closing admin" so the admin knows what to do with that file, thanks. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:00, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Arms

The rodent looks somewhat odd to me. I'm no expert in Eastern European heraldry, but the rat is a strange choice. Even if it is a beaver, which I doubt, that would also be rare and only usually found in puns on names. Besides which, the heraldic beaver as a charge is really a sort of lion with a paddle tail. This looks like a cut and paste job. Far too realistic to be heraldic. The maces are odd as 'supporters', too. In actual battle, the mace tended to be used by bishops as being more in line with their holy profession. Ah, the good old days.... But those would be blunt maces, not spiked ones. Apart from the bishops and King John of Bohemia (who was blind and had to be pointed into the battle, whereafter all his side kept well clear as he just hit anything that came near), maces and flails were more lower order weapons. Swords were rather expensive, but anyone could rustle up a mace or a flail. Also odd is the presence of a bend sinister - the bar across the middle. This is most often - but not exclusively - taken to refer to some dishonour. Its presence on a shield charged with a rat is definitely unusual. As to the helm, I quote from Helmet (heraldry): "Open-visored or barred helmets are typically reserved to the highest ranks of nobility, while untitled nobility and burghers typically assume closed helms." But what is this one? Looks closed to me. I can't comment on the mullets (stars) being six pointed - in England they are more commonly five pointed but this is not fixed, and while in Germany six points are more usual, I have no idea on Bosnia's usage. I'm not setting myself up as an expert - but I have done some research into both the weapons and blazoning of the medieval period. I am open to being proved wrong. Peridon (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Philip II of Spain

I'm not sure reverting that Anon IP will do any good. Just be careful and don't get banned for reverting over 3RR. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:02, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom GA review

A review to see if Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom meets Wikipedia:Good article criteria has started, and has been put on hold. Suggestions for improvement are at Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom/GA2, and are mainly to do with coverage and neutrality, and building the lead section. Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is one of our most high profile and popular articles, attracting an average of over 11,000 readers every day. You have made more than 20 edits to the article, and so you might be interested in helping to make the improvements needed to get listed as Good Article. SilkTork *^YES! 12:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Ingeborg of Norway - queen mother?

Hello! I have noticed what a good job you do regarding royalty here, and I have noticed something that you may be able to correct. One editor insists that Ingeborg of Norway was a "queen mother de facto", both in her article page, and in the article of queen mother. The reason given is the fact that she was the mother of the monarch, and that she was the regent of her under age son. I am from Sweden myself, and perhaps I misunderstand the title of queen mother - which does no exicst here - but is this really a correct conclusion? Political power has nothing to to with the position of queen mother, and the fact that a woman was regent does not varrant calling her a "de facto queen mother", right? --85.226.47.128 (talk) 13:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

See reply and friendly appeal here. Cordially, SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

The user SergeWoodzing seems to have the POV that a queen mother is the same thing as a queen regnant. Beacuse of this he concludes, that because she was the regent of Sweden, she can be compared to a queen mother. If we follow that wiev, it would be more logic to compare her to a queen regnant. SergeWoodzing is very difficult to communicate with. I do not wish to point my finger on anyone, but it is truly very difficult to speak with him. I do not think I have the strenght to do so. For the sake of wikipedia, someone should try to correct this. Igeborg is placed in the article of queen mother, even though she was not. Perhaps you would like to correct this, or know someone else who could? For the sake of my peace of mind, I can't continue this. --85.226.47.128 (talk) 15:24, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Ingeborg was de facto Queen Regnant 1318-19, and then by that virtue de facto Queen Mother from 1319 till her death. That's how I interpret Prof Authén. SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Just to point out (I was perhaps a little unclear); my main concern is about the queen mother article, although the Ingeborg-article may also be better with this correction. --85.226.47.128 (talk) 21:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Elisabeth of Hungary

Hello Surtsicna, I know it's been a while since we spoke about this but do you think Elisabeth, daughter of Charles I of Hungary and sister of Catherine of Hungary was married to Władysław Opolczyk? He stayed in Hungary when he married his first wife Elisabeth and her parents are disputed, the dates even fit and he was Duke of Opole. Do you think this is a match?--David (talk) 18:24, 18 February 2010 (UTC)