Talk:Brisbane

New info Box picture?

should the info box picture have multiple images in it as it does in Melbourne and Perth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.98.116 (talk) 05:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Fully support this! Make it happen! Let me know if u need help (but ask in 2 weeks, exams coming up) Ezykron (talk) 19:02, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

No one else seems to want one, but I made a very rough one anyway. I'm not from Brisbane so probably didn't select the best things to put into this, which is why I made a very rough one as a test.

Like I said, this is a very rough one (The borders are quite messy, and the pictures could be better), but I thought I'd show it to you to see if it is what you were thinking. We are the only 3 who seem to have expressed interest however, and this is since december last year, so I would assume that for now at least, most contributors are happy with the current infobox picture. Anoldtreeok (talk) 02:53, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea and I think the example looks great. I would definitely support a montage in the infobox. - Shiftchange (talk) 05:13, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Source on the images (Where did you get them from, who photographed them, what is the licensing? Bidgee (talk) 08:10, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

If you want to give me some ideas as to what to put in the montage I'll make another test. I don't know Brisbane all too well so the one I made was a bit of guess work as to what would be considered Brisbane's landmarks. I have a lot of time on my hands for the next few weeks so could make another test and to see if anyone else is interested in a new infobox picture as well. Anoldtreeok (talk) 08:08, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Template:Brisbane landmarks should help. I would suggest Story Bridge or Gateway Bridge, Brisbane, Treasury Building, Brisbane, possibly The Gabba, ANZAC Square, Brisbane is good, so is one of the skyline, Brisbane City Hall and Queen Street Mall, and all have to be appropriately licensed. - Shiftchange (talk) 08:33, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Unless I missed one, I'm pretty sure all the pictures I used in the example above were put into public domain. Anyway, I'll experiment a bit more, and see what works. Thanks for the suggestions. EDIT: I was wrong about the story bridge picture. Updated licencing on the montage because of it and credited the original creator. If I've done it wrong please correct me.Anoldtreeok (talk) 11:38, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Hey there. thanks a lot for the great montage. i had a lot of time on my hands so i managed to find some pictures already off wiki which didnt have any forms of protection. ive used yours as a basis and added a couple more sites so its in line with the melbourne one. take a look on the main page and tell me if you like. i think the pictures compliment eachother very nicely! thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 10:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I made the claim that I had time on my hands but then realised I didn't. So sorry I didn't end up following through on making another picture, but the one that is there now is better than I would have made (I was relying on wikipedia to figure out what were the most notable parts of Brisbane). Good work. Anoldtreeok (talk) 06:51, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Hey guys - I work for Brisbane Marketing and we make all of our images available for use. If you want to use any images for the montage please have a look at the following site [1]

Low-lying floodplain?

Is Brisbane really on a floodplain or just the north east quarter of the city? Considering that the Taylor Range has a spur that reaches the CBD from the west and there are a number of mountains, numerous hilly areas and ridges as well as cliffs along the river it can hardly be described as a floodplain. No citation has been provided for the claim regarding a floodplain but there is a citation for the hilly description.

Also the location description as being between the Great Dividing Range and Moreton Bay is not that accurate. Travelling west from Brisbane the Little Liverpool Range and the D'Aguilar Range are crossed before reaching the Great Dividing Range. Any thoughts? - Shiftchange (talk) 12:26, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Picture

Should the overhead photograph state that it is looking Eastward? Being very familiar with Brisbane, even I was confused at first, having just assumed it was facing North.

Therealfindo (talk) 20:25, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

LGA population in intro must be removed

where it says brisbane's LGA has a population of a million in the intro needs to be removed. None of the other aust cities give details on the population of the central LGA so its very inconsistent. Also, this article is NOT on the brisbane city council (LGA), but the metropilatan area of brisbane, which includes several different council LGAs, so including this figure here is very confusing. I have tried editing this, but it has been changed. Please revert the article to the consistent standard for Australian cities in this regard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 03:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

The saga continues. What other LGAs do you think should be considered part of Brisbane? While you might like to attain consistency with other Australian cities, it has to be based on reality. The current Brisbane LGA was formed from an amalgamation of many smaller LGAs mid last century. People rarely think of or refer to Brisbane as anything other than the LGA, unlike Sydney where, for example, people living in the City of Parramatta consider themselves Sydneysiders while people in the City of Ipswich generally think they live outside of Brisbane. This has been the consensus view at Wikipeida and what I believe is the local perspective. Is my understanding of metropolitan area faulty? A reliable source indicating something otherwise which supports your view would convince me that your suggested changes are needed. - Shiftchange (talk) 03:55, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure about this either, but I did find this line in the article: Unlike other Australian capital cities, a large portion of the greater metropolitan area of Brisbane is controlled by a single local government entity, the Brisbane City Council. So, I guess that means that unlike in Sydney where all 38 LGA's are self governing, there is a greater deal of control from the main Brisbane LGA? Anoldtreeok (talk) 05:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone seriously believe that places like Everton Hills, Queensland and Alexandra Hills should be excluded from the definition of Brisbane in this article? Both are clearly part of Brisbane but outside the Brisbane LGA. Of course, those favouring a pure LGA focus for this article (rather than the Metro. area) are trying to play both ends: They want to exclude the other LGAs in the metropolitain area but still make a claim to be the third biggest city in Australia. This article should of course be about the Brisbane metropolitan area and City of Brisbane should be about the LGA, as is the case elsewhere - not this half'n'half hybrid that exists now. "while people in the City of Ipswich generally think they live outside of Brisbane" An interesting claim, but I would be interested if the same applies for Redland, Moreton Bay and Logan ... -- Mattinbgn\^talk 05:25, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

nope. we dont need to think about what in your opinion should be included, or which LGAs. the aust bureau of statistics does that for us. this is an article of brisbanes metropolitan area as defined by the ABS, just as every single other article on australian cities is. end of discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 11:26, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Well have fun expanding the History section to include those extra LGAs. Then the Geography section will have to include those areas too, will it not? Since Amberley is part of Ipswich which is now part of Brisbane will the temperature records have to updated to include the much colder conditions out west? The Governance and Economy sections only discuss the Brisbane LGA at the moment. How about the Education and Culture sections, they seem to be excluding a lot of content about the Brisbane metropolitan area. Be sure to include all the infrastructure like Logan and Ipswich hospitals when you re-write most of the article. Skimming the article I can't see much about Redlands or Moreton Bay so will those omissions have to be covered too? Really is the article about the Greater Brisbane area or is it just two small sections that include ABS definitions? - Shiftchange (talk) 11:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

According to the IP's definition, the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast must be included in this article too, since according to the IP editors, it's included as a part of Brisbane, when technically the outer areas (Caboolture, Ipswich, etc) are actually a part of South East Queensland. Sb617 (Talk) 14:33, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Back on a note, i've reverted/tweaked the intro to include the "Greater Metropolitan Brisbane population (excluding Gold/Sunshine Coast)", while at the same time incorporating the local LGA population at the same time. If any IPs and/or edits must insist otherwise, you might as well include the history of Ipswich, Logan, Sunshine Coast, Gold Coast, etc since South East Queensland is considered Greater Brisbane in some population statistics. This is clearly a article on Brisbane, not South East Queensland. Sb617 (Talk) 14:45, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

No, the GC and sunshine coast are NOT included in the stat division of brisbane. im sorry, youre going to have to concede defeat on this one. look at the map from the ABS, brisbanes metro area is defined as going from caboolture to logan and out to ipswich. all other aust cities use the ABS definition for their articles and population counts, so for consistency and officiality, we are doing the same. Do not attempt to go against the convention which has been used for every other Aust city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 08:01, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

there is a very clear way of doing things on wikipedia in these situations, and that is to FOLLOW CONVENTION and CONSISTENCY. looking at every single other article for an australian city, the articles are defined as the ABS's definition of a metro area. LGAs (ie the LGA of sydney) have their own separate articles eg "sydney city council". An LGA (or city council) and a city whole, or metropolitan area, are very distinct entities. whoever is reverting this back to include the LGA, please stop, as there is a clear convention in all the other australian city articles, and on wikipedia, that is what we go by in this situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 08:08, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/ABSNavigation/prenav/LocationSearch?locationLastSearchTerm=brisbane&locationSearchTerm=brisbane&newarea=305&collection=Census&period=2006&areacode=&geography=&method=&productlabel=&producttype=&topic=&navmapdisplayed=true&javascript=true&breadcrumb=L&topholder=0&leftholder=0&currentaction=104&action=104&textversion=false&subaction=2 this link shows the map of the brisbane metro area as defined by the ABS, it does not include gold or sunshine coasts so no need to mention that. this is the SD as defined by the ABS, this is what, based on convention of all other articles of cities in australia, we define this article as being. so please do not revert to unconventionally and confusingly including the LGA. this puts the issue to rest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 08:17, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

You haven't addressed my points. Notice how every photo, except the satellite image and most of the content is only about the Brisbane LGA. You might think we have to achieve consistency, but accuracy is more important. Brisbane ends at the border of the Brisbane LGA. The Brisbane Metro area is another thing and can be mentioned here but the fact is that the article is about Brisbane and not what other would like it to be for consistency. Take the temperature records for instance, are you going to change that and claim that the records for Ipswich or elsewhere in the met. area are now going to be the records for Brisbane? That would be incorrect and even more confusing. - Shiftchange (talk) 08:24, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

What Shiftchange said, and besides the Brisbane Metro area is more considered South East Queensland, if you want to change consensus set for this article, you have to be willing to include the weather reports and the brief history for Moreton Bay, Redcliffe, Logan, Ipswich into this article. If you want to change it, you have to incorporate the other South East Queensland LGAs into this article, otherwise this article will be very inconsistent. Are you willing to do that? Sb617 (Talk) 08:38, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Also note that History of Brisbane, Arts and culture in Brisbane, Popular entertainment in Brisbane and Transport in Brisbane exclude anything beyond the Brisbane LGA. Tourism in Brisbane follows this convention also with exception of Alma Park Zoo which could probably be corrected. Considering this, Wikipedia views Brisbane as only the Brisbane LGA. Hope that helps. - Shiftchange (talk) 08:58, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

nope, sorry. look at the sydney, melbourne, or perth articles. they are all pictures of the CBD (inside LGAs too). i agree, add some history and geo of the other parts. the reason its not there is that unlike other aust cities, the BCC covers almost half of brisbane, whereas in most others like syd and melb the central LGA covers only a little. were going to stick to the traditional definition of the metro area here. read the rules of wikipedia. if in doubt, follow convention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 10:30, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

a possible compromise:

Brisbane (Template:Pron-en) is the capital and most populous city in the Australian state of Queensland. Brisbane's metropolitan area has a population predicted to be 2,000,000 by the Australian Bureau of Statitstics, making it the third most populous city in Australia. Brisbane's Local Government Area, which, unlike those of other Australian capitals, includes the greater part of the metropolitan area, is Australia's largest by population.

this includes a link to and introduction of the Brisbane city council LGA, but does not compromise the convention of australian cities articles refering to the official ABS definition.

A more concise alternative would be

Brisbane (Template:Pron-en) is the capital and most populous city in the Australian state of Queensland. With a metropolitan area of 2,000,000 people and a central [Local Government Area]] comprising half of that, it is the third most populous city, and most populous Local Government Area in Australia.

pick and choose.

I prefer the first one. Notice that none of the extra LGA articles claim to belong to Brisbane. They state that they are positioned in various directions around Brisbane. No matter what ABS statistics state or how other capital city articles are written it is factually false to claim that Ipswich, Logan or the other LGAs are in Brisbane. - Shiftchange (talk) 11:12, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

ok we go with the first one. there is already an article on the brisbane LGA brisbane city council, if you feel that theres not enough on the four other LGAs that are within the brisbane metro area, INCLUDE MORE in the history and geo section, do not try changing the subject of the article to be inconsistent with every other major city article. Take the first option then as a compromise, and i guess the notice at the top about the dispute can be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 11:17, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you understand. You are not paying attention to what the facts are on the ground. You are far too concerned with other articles and ABS statistics which are beside the point. Brisbane is and will ever only be about the Brisbane LGA. It is you who is trying to change the subject of the article to include surrounding LGA's which are not part of Brisbane. The article doesn't include temperature records from Ipswich and all the rest you are logically arguing should be included because it is not part of Brisbane. Nobody is going to add information about tourism in Ipswich to the Tourism in Brisbane page and so forth. Can you comprehend this? - Shiftchange (talk) 11:31, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Go to the melbourne or sydney article and look at their temperatures. do u see any from frankstown, parramatta, kooyong, south sydney, any of THEIR other LGAs? NO. PS in the compromised intro where it says local govt area in the sentence links to the brisbane city council LGA article, a SEPERATE ARTICLE on the LGA. if not anything else, that should make it clear that THIS article is not on the LGA, but on the official brisbane metro area.we found a compromise. lets leave it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 11:34, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

here is a map of brisbanes metro area. as you can see, there is no stop around the BCC area, everything is a full mass from caboolture to ipswich to beenleigh.

http://www.coastshop.com.au/maps/road/QLD%20brisbane%20region.jpg

here is a map showing the boundaries of the BCC. you see where im coming from now dont you...........

http://www.discoverbrisbane.com/maps/brisbane.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 12:06, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Can you see on the City of Parramatta and Parramatta, New South Wales articles they both state the they are part of Sydney. You will not find that on the City of Ipswich or Ipswich, Queensland articles because they are not part of Brisbane. This is the central and over-riding point that you choose to ignore. You are making things up so that it fits with your view of what it should be, when the reality is different. The Brisbane LGA is the council that covers the same area as Brisbane, unlike other cities. They are separate articles because one is about a political body while the other is about a geographical settlement, not because they cover differing areas.

Brisbane in all its literal interpretations here at Wikipedia, as evidenced by the numerous examples I have given, excludes surrounding LGAs. So to repeat Brisbane as referenced here at Wikipedia does not include surrounding LGAs and in general use elsewhere only refers to the Brisbane LGA. How other cities are defined to include surrounding LGAS is not relevant because it doesn't apply here. This is the consensus that has arisen for whatever reason. ABS definitions are useful for statistical purposes only and may at times differ from common usage. This is what we are concerned with, common usage, not statistical divisions.

You have not achieved a compromise, rather you have added illogical and contravening claims that conflict with numerous other articles. What you should do is work on improving the South East Queensland article to include what you consider is important to mention about the Brisbane metropolitan area, because no matter how you feel it should be, the Brisbane article and practically all descriptions of Brisbane here and elsewhere do not refer to the Brisbane metropolitan area. - Shiftchange (talk) 13:34, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Notice the first sentence in Brisbane City Council which says it is the governing council for Brisbane. It doesn't say it is one of a number of LGAs for Brisbane. More supporting evidence includes the list of Template:Cities of Australia with seperate entries for Ipswich, Queensland, Logan City and Redcliffe City, Queensland but not Parramatta or the ones you mentioned. WikiProject Brisbane doesn't cover anything outside of the Brisbane LGA either. - Shiftchange (talk) 15:31, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Having it both ways

Those who consider this article should be about the LGA rather than the Brisbane metro area (which does not include the Gold and Sunshine coasts - that is a particularly egregious piece of misinformation) have a responsibility to ensure that this article does not veer into cherry-picking information about the metro area for inclusion. As it stands, the whole Demographics section (which is based on the ABS definition of Brisbane that the LGA-ists here reject) needs to be removed in its entirety. If you reject the ABS definition of Brisbane then you cannot use the statistics that the ABS provide using that definition. Again, this article is trying to have it both ways. I think the consensus here is utterly wrong-headed but given that it exists, those who support it should endeavour to make the article internally consistent. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 20:43, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Totally agree! Sure Brisbane LGA in the largest but this article is about the metro area of Brisbane (Gold Coast and the Sunshine Coast are their own identity and no way part of Brisbane) and the LGA information should be in the Brisbane City Council. The fanboi'ism as I call it should stop, fact is we have a policy here on neutral point of view and it should be followed however it seems to me those cherry-picking must forget or seem to think it doesn't apply to them but the fact is, it applies to everyone. Bidgee (talk) 23:51, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

So are you suggesting that Rathdowney, Queensland, Canungra, Queensland, Tamborine Mountain and Kalbar, Queensland, all towns in the Scenic Rim Region need to be changed to state they are part of Brisbane rather than in South East Queensland? Why do you think that none of these articles state they are in Brisbane if that was the case? Has some fanboy gone around and made sure that the view I am expressing is stated here or has the view I put forward organically and neutrally emerged as the consensus because it is the most accurate and consistent with the prevailing perspective? Are all the editors who wrote the articles this way wrong? By claiming the Brisbane article is about the wider Brisbane metropolitan area aren't you are adding ambiguity, in contravention of the Wikipedia:Article titles policy? I'm not inclined to edit war and will be taking Brisbane off my watchlist shortly because I see it being wrecked so it fits in. - Shiftchange (talk) 03:31, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

With respect, you are missing the point. If this article is going to be about the Brisbane LGA then it needs to be about the LGA, not the metro area. This article is trying to be about the LGA but continually refers to the metro area. The LGA-ists such as yourself need to pick one definition and stick to it consistently. The lead sentence claims that Brisbane is the third largest city in Australia - by your definition this just is not true. The demographics section claims that "Brisbane recorded the largest growth rate of all capital cities in the last Census" - again if you are talking about the LGA rather than the metro area, then this claim is false. This confusion is riddled throughout the article, including the infobox, and it is the responsible of the WP:OWNers of this article to fix it, one way or the other.

A second point, claiming that the local definition of "Brisbane" is the only one with validity is not right. If I was going to visit my (imaginary) cousin in Arana Hills I would be telling my collegues elsewhere in Australia that I was going to Brisbane. If I said I was going to Moreton Bay I would get a bunch of stunned looks and queries as to where the hell was that. Using the idiosyncratic, local definition of Brisbane does not assist the wider reading audience from elsewhere in Australia (or indeed worldwide) to understand what the article is saying. Incidently, it says something about the walled garden that SEQ articles have become that if you read the Arana Hills, Queensland article you would have absolutely no idea the locality is part of the Brisbane metropolitan area. The exclusion of any mention of Brisbane in articles on localities in the Moreton Bay, Logan, Redland LGAs et al is profoundly misleading to readers living outside the south east of the state.

Lastly, if the article is proposed to be about the LGA then, uniquely among the mainland state capitals, there will not be an article on the greater metropolitan area. The solution of using South East Queensland is flawed as it includes the discrete urban centres of the Gold and Sunshine Coasts (and the Lockyer Valley, Esk and surrounds etc.). How do we address this topic? -- Mattinbgn\^talk 04:06, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

There would be no misleading, exclusions or duplicity if the Brisbane metropolitan area article had been created years ago to clarify these concerns. This is what I suggested a while ago but it was dismissed because it didn't fit the mould. Notice that the table on Local Government Areas of Queensland and none of the category structures confer with your view. Part of the problem is that there is no Category:South East Queensland. I'm not understanding the example of Arana Hills, Queensland, because I can easily see from the template at the bottom it is part of the the Moreton Bay LGA in South East Queensland and by reading the lead it is located just to the north of Brisbane. Why would these basic facts cause confusion? This whole debate seems very strange to me. The Brisbane article needs to be clarified for sure. I have only ever been a very minor contributor to that page so I personally don't feel I'm obliged to correct anything. Also there are some descriptions of the Brisbane metropolitan area that do include the north and south coasts. If they were sourced and fleshed out they could be elaborated on the South East Queensland page. - Shiftchange (talk) 06:49, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Are there articles for the syd or melb metro area? simple answer is no. all articles refering to australian cities on wikipedia refer to metro areas. im sorry, shiftchange, but you're going to have to put your own personal opinion aside, and do this the official, conventional way. You cant have all other aust city articles refering to metro area and ours going to council. are you implying brisbane is in fact the 5th largest city after perth and adelaide? this would be the case in your definition. you may have a personal definition but the fact is that ABS is the standard in australia and is used in all other articles. there is ALREADY an article on the brisbane LGA. you may improve or make a new one if you want, but the article that links simple to Brisbane remains the metro area --- its time to put personal opinions aside and go with the official definition. If someone asks what the population of brisbane is youll say its the 3rd largest in aust and has 2 mill, not the 5th largest with 1 mill. to change this article youd be going against every single reference to our city and every official definition and convention used on the subject in this country. Saruman-the-White —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 07:00, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

i have added a link at the top of the page stating this article is about the metro area (as with all other aust cities) and provided a link to the LGA of the same name. As stated by convention, anything relating to the BCC LGA goes in there. Saruman-the-white —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 07:07, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Where do you get the idea that there is some official conventional way that must be adhered to regardless? Could you point to this policy on consistency? Who cares what articles exist for the other cities and their definitions, we are only discussing the Brisbane article and how to improve it. Is Caboolture, Queensland in Brisbane? No, but it is in the metropolitan area as the article indicates. Basic facts like this are more important for an encyclopedia than matching what the ABS dictates or for consistencies sake. The fact is that the majority of the Brisbane article and most references to it do not mean the Brisbane metropolitan area. This is another factor that is more important than consistency or exactly aligning with the ABS.

I am only suggesting that the figure for the population of Brisbane for statistical purposes is based on a metropolitan area division and that ideally it should be discussed on another page, because that 2 million figure is based on the metropolitan area, not just the commonly held view of Brisbane, which it seems is unlike other cities. What I have been saying is that this article is not about the wider area, that Brisbane covers one LGA and that so for the sake of clarity both figures should be mentioned in the Brisbane article and content related to the metropolitan area be moved to another page. - Shiftchange (talk) 08:15, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

What a long debate for a black and white issue. Brisbane is a metropolitan area which includes multiple LGAs. There are references to this already present in the article. The ABS, as the national statistical agency, owners and conductors of the national Census are the data source and clearly hold the view that Brisbane is a metropolitan area of multiple LGAs as well a distinct LGA. Trying to construe the article to say SEQ or whatever is the metropolitan region is WP:OR. It looks like Shiftchange is taking this far too personally. --AtD (talk) 08:43, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Where I get the idea that there is a conventional way is that in every single other aust city article, typing the name of the city eg Sydney will link to the metro area article. As AtD says, Brisbane is a metro area. If you feel there is not enough on Brisbane's suburbs in the partial parts of the other LGAs that Brisbane covers, then I'd be happy to add some in, you could assist too. There is a seperate page linked at the top for the LGA as well which you can feel free to improve as you see fit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 09:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I added extra citations to the Australian Standard Geographical Classifications (ASGC) for Queensland, which is generally used by any serious research or statistics in this country. I also included the new definitions for the 2011 Census just to show that Brisbane will still be a capital city in the near future. :)

These classifications are based on data such as number of commuters between given areas to determine interdependence of urban populations. A capital city is a greater entity than an LGA, and all Australian capital cities are a single Statistical Division each, Brisbane included. If editors chose to reject this, then almost all of the numerical data on the page is either incorrect or useless and any comparisons made to other Australian city's articles will be wrong. These standard definitions exist for that very reason. Not to mention that whole WP:OR thing. --AtD (talk) 11:47, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm over discussing this article but on a related matter I am now far more concerned with the hundreds of confusing errors that the metropolitan area stipulation introduces. Take the Tamborine National Park for example, the next article I was going to work on. Is the first sentence in the article true or false? Because the definition on the Brisbane article implies it is part of Brisbane not some distance south of Brisbane. To support the metropolitan area view a reference would have to state it is south of the Brisbane City Council not south of Brisbane would it not? This inevitable confusion is why I have pushed my barrow, not because I am taking something personally. - Shiftchange (talk) 12:44, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I've noted that the IP had attempted to bring this to the attention of a outside forum. I would sincerly suggest he registers a account with a username if he wants to help out.

Considering a lot of people had come out of the woodwork lately, Shiftchange has brought a valid point on the above, and there is a lot of work to do, especially that many South East Queensland articles will now require changing to state that is a suburb of the Brisbane Metropolitan area, ____kms _____ of the Brisbane CBD, Its local government area is the ____ shire/regional council Sb617 (Talk) 15:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

It is far, far worse than that. Apparently we have to base the jurisdiction of capital city articles on the commuting patterns of a portion of residents who live in nearby LGAs. We must dismiss any other sources that contradict as this is original research even though this definition was created by a government body solely for the purpose of labour force data comparisons. Can you imagine if petrol prices dramatically rise and people choose not to commute to Brisbane. Then if the ABS removes certain LGA's from their definitions we would have to change all our articles to align with the latest ABS definitions. According to the third reference in the Brisbane article which explains this, we must now include Laidley, Esk and Kilcoy in Brisbane. I think some editors need to consider Wikipedia:Reliable sources and undue weight, place less importance on ABS definitions and think about all the other reliable sources which will contradict the ABS's rather odd definitions of what Brisbane actually is. - Shiftchange (talk) 17:04, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I like how you try to dismiss the ABS as a faceless government bureaucracy. Remember that when you fill out your census next year. You are correct, though, city's aren't a static things and do change, and Wikipedia should reflect this reality. Oh, and Tamborine is a national park on the edge of Brisbane, 50-ish km south of the city centre. :) --AtD (talk) 21:46, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

But this reference says the park is 80 km south of Brisbane. You had better let the Department of Environment and Resource Management know so they can update their page. Don't forget to change the infoboxes on all those towns around Brisbane that state they are a certain distance from Brisbane. Oddly enough the Kilcoy infobox was added by Mattinbgn. Talk about having it both ways. Try telling someone from Rathdowney, Queensland that they live in Brisbane. And please remember to cherry-pick what we include in the Brisbane article. Our definition of Brisbane covers all these places especially their populations, but excludes the temperature records from them. Anything other than these arbitrary descriptions of what to include is just a personal opinion. - Shiftchange (talk) 23:59, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Dear shiftchange, when an article says something like 100km from brisbane, they mean from the brisbane CBD. Brisbane is actually also a suburb with the postcode 4000. same as if i say 900km from sydney theyre talking from the CBD. So yes, some national parks may be part of the brisbane metro area and it could be eful to include this, but technically its still correct that wherever is however many km from brisbane, just as its true southbank is 1 km south of brisbane (CBD). Also, its not all of the LGAs that are included, by the i mean the whole area. So for example, where it says scenic rim is included in the brisbane LGA, if you go to the ABS site to see how the brisbane metro area is defined (they have a map) youll see only a very tiny section is included of the scenic rim LGA. so some of those places you mentioned arent actually part of the brisbane metro area at all. some may indeed be located in the brisbane metro area, and i could help adding this to the relevent articles if necessary (you know much of the blue mountains, gosford, katoomba nat'l parks are in the sydney metro area too). But yes, the fact remains that a wiki article when linked directly to the name of an aust city doesnt go to the suburb, ie brisbane 4000, qld, or sydney 2000 nsw, the LGA, ie bris city council, sydney city council, but the metro area. PS. i did put on our compromised intro, but its since been changed (now says a lot about the denonym ie. brisbanite, "brisvegan" .. i didnt do this by the way). i will sign up for a user name yes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 06:56, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide a link to the ABS brisbane metro area map? - Shiftchange (talk) 08:44, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Shiftchange, do you consider yourself a greater expert than the ABS on population statistics? Your arguments suggest you do. You may not like the definitions but they are consistent between the major cities of Australia, and if you feel as strongly as you seem to: contact the ABS and complain to them. Your comments about temperature are bizarre: data for a centre is from only one location and is meant to be representative of the general climate in that area, though there may be variations throughout city. In reality the variation over the Brisbane metro area is quite small in comparison to that of more mountainous cities, such as Lima. In theory the figures should be from the centre of the city. No modifications based variation within the metro is necessary. $eti (talk) 07:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Like most Australian cities, we need to be careful when using the term Brisbane, in both articles and in reading references. Brisbane refers to a capital city, an LGA, a business district, a postal area (Brisbane 4000) and so on. All of these uses have different borders and exist in different contexts. Changing the terms of the lead of this one article will not remove the confusion. This is true of most large Australian cities.

The link Shiftchange provided isn't clear on what 'Brisbane' it's referring to. I'm sure Google will yield hundreds of results for all the uses. This would be the problem which lead to the creation of the ASGC as well as the consensus of the terms of reference to all other Australian cities in Wikipedia. --AtD (talk) 10:25, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

hi shiftchange, here is the link with a map showing the abs and australian standard geographical classification definition of brisbane metro area, used in censuses, price indexes, govt stats, city GDP calculations, workforce, etc. http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/8EA943A639BE6767CA2576320019FDC1/$File/12160_jul%202009_qld%20maps.pdf i also provided another link to another copy of this map earlier, zoomed into just the brisbane SD on the census data page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 10:54, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I cannot see any map of the Brisbane metropolitan area delineated on the pdf above. I have now found the pdf map on page 161 which is clearer than the one below. I see a small map of the statistical division of Brisbane and surrounds which would most probably best represents the Brisbane metropolitan area. Then I see the coastshop.com map showing part of South East Queensland and one of Brisbane. Assuming that the 2nd map pdf map is the one we would use to define what you are suggesting the Brisbane article should be about then would you agree that the climate temperature claiming the minimum record is false because Amberley, Queensland which lies within the darker part of the map this area, has reached a lower temperature of -4.9 degrees? Can you see how confusing this is.

I still cannot see where the Scenic Rim Council is shown to be part of the Brisbane metropolitan area either. Nor can I understand why the Brisbane City Council page, an article about a local government body should be about a geographical region. Isn't the first sentence on the Brisbane City Council page false? How would you correct this or are you comfortable with the ambiguity? Can you see you want to have it both ways and not I. You want to have the Brisbane article have a wide context, contrary to how it is used in Wikipedia in many other articles, but then use it in another context, where parts of it are excluded, for example, temperature records. The we must then refer to what is commonly known as Brisbane as the Brisbane City Council or even the less used City of Brisbane. I am not trying to be an expert as alleged or be disruptive. I am simply trying to understand things correctly so I can be confident that my future editing is accurate. - Shiftchange (talk) 15:32, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

hi shiftchange, in fact a TINY proportion of the scenic rim council is defined as being in the brisbane metro area (a strip on the very easternmost part). As far as temp is concerned, the temperatures listed are actually refering to Brisbane CBD (postcode 2000), which is chosen as a (usually) central location of a metro area from which to take figures on climate. indeed, there will be suburbs within and outside the BCC LGA that have recorded lower temperatures, but because it would be very complex to have to include CBD, some bayside suburbs, nothern, western, southern, etc. articles for any city tend just to use the CBD as a simple, supposedly central, point of reference. in sydney it is not central but in the far east, and the outer western suburbs of sydney get far hotter and far colder (much more difference than anything in brisbane) but, call it illogical (i might even be inclined to agree), but its just a simple point of reference.

To the Brisbane City Council article, youre right, its very confusing. Upon closer observation of the article, it is in fact in the category "LGAs in queensland" and is linked (at the bottom with the list) to the LGA for "City of brisbane" also the table at the right side is the same table used for an LGA, with area, population etc, the name of the table even was "city of brisbane" -- clearly this is an article on the city of brisbane, rather than the BCC. All it took me was to change a few references and the article is now in line with all other LGA articles, which it is listed as one, and refers to the city of brisbane, and is primarily about the LGA, with a large section called "Governance" --- to do this i looked at the models of other LGA articles, such as the city of sydney and the city of melbourne, it was, but for the name, already largely in line with these. This should clear a lot of the ambiguity, and makes it a lot more consistant. Granted, the article is not particularly detailed, but looking at the articles for other LGAs, it does indeed appear highly detailed (and much longer). That article was really about the LGA and was listed as an LGA article, but under the name of the governing authority rather than the name of the LGA. i have fixed these things up to put it in line with the other LGA articles, and in time hope to change the name of the article to "City of Brisbane", as all other LGA articles are named, and have "Brisbane City Council" redirect to it (the section on governance) -- this is what is done in other LGA articles, ie city of sydney, city of melbourne. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.63.196 (talk) 07:17, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Too many images in geography section

I know Brisbane has a nice skyline and looks great from space, but is there any need for 3 pictures of the skyline and two aerial/satellite photos ? This is an encyclopedia article, so I suggest picking a couple of the best and leaving the rest. --Biatch (talk) 00:21, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Sister cities

Not trying to get into the same argument as above, but seeing as the sister cities relations are between Brisbane city council, and not Brisbane as a whole? Looking through the previous discussions, I'm not entirely sure what consensus (if any) has been reached, and sorry if this has been brought up before, just thought I'd bring it up.

Melbourne also does this, but unlike here, there's no debate as to what the article refers to, so it's an even bigger wonder there. Maybe I should raise the question there as well. Anoldtreeok (talk) 08:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)