Talk:Australia
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First sighting of Australia by Queiros
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According to some sources, the first European to see the Australian continent was Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós (Quiros in Spanish) who sailed the South Pacific in 1605. The members of his expedition saw the northern tip of Australia, though they did not make landfall. Quirós landed on a large island which he took to be part of the southern continent, and named it La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo (The Austrian Land of the Holy Spirit), for King Philip III, who belonged to the House of Habsburg or House of Austria. The island was in fact in the New Hebrides archipelago, today the country of Vanuatu. The island is still called Espiritu Santo. This information is not in the article. I have therefore included the following sentences:
The discovery of Australia is contested between Dutch explorer Willem Janszoon and Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandez de Queiros. There are references for both interpretations, all of them reliable. This is why I suggest using the term "probably" when mentioning Queiros' first sighting of the Australian mainland. JCRB (talk) 13:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments. Again, I am not arguing that Torres or Queiros sighted Australia for certain before the Dutch, rather, that this possibility exists, and that it should be mentioned. Regarding the Portuguese discovery of Australia in 1522, yes I have read about that. They called it Jave La Grande ("Jave the Great") and there are 16th century maps of a coast very similar to the Australian coast with Portuguese names on it. Maybe this should also be mentioned with a link to the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia. Regarding the Etymology of Australia, I think the issue needs no further explanation: In "A note of Australia del Espíritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt and published by Samuel Purchas in Hakluytus Posthumus" English writer Richard Hakluyt talks about Espiritu Santo island, discovered by Queiros in 1606 which he called "Austrialia del Espiritu Santo". Queiros belived he was in Australia. What part of that historical and etymological link don't you see? JCRB (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
No, no confusion at all. If the "first recorded use of the word Australia in English" was in "A note of Australia del Espíritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt and published by Samuel Purchas in Hakluytus Posthumus", then the article should say where this name came from. Regardless of where they were (Queiros was indeed in Vanuatu) the point is the name "Australia del Espiritu Santo" came from Queiros' expedition, which landed in Espiritu Santo and called the island that way (thinking he was in mainland Australia). A short sentence mentioning this should be enough. That's all. JCRB (talk) 03:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
I have once more removed the contested information because as far as I can see, there is not any consensus for its addition. It is a reference to a totally different place thousands of miles away.--Dmol (talk) 12:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Dmol, the reasons have not been explained ad nauseam. The expression "ad nauseam" applies to very long, unproductive and tiresome discussions. We have only started discussing the Etymology issue recently. I wish you provided reasonable arguments beyond "there is no consensus". CJ, I partly agree with you, and I appreciate your reasoning. If the article mentions the earlist recorded use of the word in English, it should also say "where this name came from". I also think that it should say who gave it this name: navigator Pedro Fernandes Queiros who landed in the main island of Vanuatu, thinking he was on mainland Terra Australis. By the way, the Spanish article on Australia says that "Austr-i-alia" has a double etymological root: "Austria" (for the Habsburgs of Austria, the Spanish dynasty of the time) and "Austral" meaning southern (Queiros was searching for Terra Australis or "Southern Land"). The combined "Austrialia" was later corrupted or translated incorrectly to English as "Australia" [1] JCRB (talk) 14:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with that. The current sentence should be sufficient. Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
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Edit request from MelbGuy1, 29 September 2010
{{edit semi-protected}}
as of august 2010 australia's unemployment rate is 5.1 percent, reference link: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0
MelbGuy1 (talk) 22:09, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Done Thanks, Stickee (talk) 00:05, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
re: biggest worldwide selling albums missing
If Opera and Symphony's get a paragraph, contemporary music deserves a mention.
referring to wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_worldwide
ACDC's back in black is the second biggest selling album of all time, the Bee Gee's ranked 9th with Saturday Night Fever. There are other notable internationally acclaimed musicians (eg. kylie minogue, olivia newton john, inxs, jet). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.190.211.91 (talk) 18:26, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
The theory of Portuguese discovery and Torres...
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Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Nickm57, yes, I meant the "first sighting by Torres" who was part of Queiros' original expedition. Indeed, there are different sources which prove this first sighting. You mentioned Brett Hilder and his "high likelyhood" that this ocurred. There are other sources. In The First Discovery of Australia and New Guinea (1906) [3] the author, George Collingridge says:
See this map for the full route of Torres [4]. In a timeline at the end of the book, Collingridge also writes: "1606. Torres sails towards Australia from the New Hebrides, passes through the straits that bear his name, and discovers Australia, without, apparently, being aware of the fact." So according to this historian Torres was the first European to sight Australia (and to sail its waters) although he did not make landfall. Regarding the prior discovery of Australia by the Portuguese, there are also a number of sources which prove this, largely based on the Dieppe maps, specially this one [5] and this one [6] which show the Australian landmass south of Java and Sumatra, but farther to the east. In the same work Collingridge explains that these maps were purposely distorted by the Portuguese so that Australia appeared in the hemisphere assigned to Portugal by Pope Alexander (in the Treaty of Tordesillas). Collingridge provides an interesting illustration comparing the real and the fictitious location of Australia here [7]. He also explains:
So according to the above information, both Torres (in 1606) and the Portuguese (in the 16th century) arrived in Australia before the Dutch. Whether they made this knowledge available to other Europeans or not, is not really the point. Many discoveries were kept secret during the 16th and 17th centuries so that competing nations did not threaten trade or power in the newly discovered regions. Regarding the fictitious position of Australia in the above-mentioned map, this is what Spanish pilot Juan Gaetan said about the Portuguese charts:
So clearly it was customary to protect valuable information like maps and trade routes by keeping them secret and even falsifying documents. With this in mind, it seems highly probably that the Portuguese arrived Australia in the 16th century. Therefore, the article should mention both of these prior discoveries. JCRB (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Generally unknown discoveries: European maritime expeditions from the Age of Exploration up to the 18th century were usually kept secret to prevent rival powers from gaining access to profitable trade, or from establishing bases that would threaten their colonies. This meant either locking away the documents that recorded the discovery, or distorting the charts as I explained above. Discussing 18th century Spanish travel literature, Professor Garcia Sanchez from Eastern Washington University writes:
There are territories which the Portuguese or the Spanish discovered in the 16th century, but due to the policy of discretion this has not been acknowledged sufficiently. In territories where a different European power eventually took over, this is specially the case. For example, according to this theory Hawaii was probably discovered by the Spanish in 1555. See also this article[9]. The discovery of the Spice Islands or Moluccas was also kept secret by the Portuguese for a few decades until the unification of Spain and Portugal under the Iberian Union. The route of the Manila Galleons itself was kept rigorously secret for almost its full duration (1565-1815) allowing the Viceroyalty of New Spain and the Casa de Contratacion to operate a transpacific monopoly between the Philippines and the Americas undisturbed for at least one century. So not all discoveries were disclosed. In fact, documents of exploration such as logbooks and maps were sometimes locked away for a very long time. According to this book [4] (quoting the WP article) "the Hawaiian islands were not known to have any valuable resources, so the Spanish would have not made an effort to settle them". The same thing happened to the Mariana Islands (specially Guam) discovered by Magellan in 1521, and visited by various explorers afterwards (among them Legazpi and Urdaneta in 1565) but not settled until 1668. Scope of the history section: As for the scope of the history section, I think we need to be more open-minded towards information that we are not used to. Just because the Portuguese discovery of Australia is not mainstream in English-language literature, does not mean it is inaccurate. Just because the Torres discovery is not "generally accepted" nowadays does not mean it should be ruled out. Let the reader decide that for himself. A short mention of these two possible discoveries and a link does not in any way harm the article. What's more, it contributes to it. JCRB (talk) 18:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. I think I've produced sufficient sources to justify at least a small reference to the prior discoveries. These are not "obscure matters" but verifiable information which is relevant to the article. JCRB (talk) 16:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't say a constructive discussion "stinks". All of this is useful information about Australia's early history. As for the "dead horse"(?) the long discussion was about Etymology. That's over. This discussion is about prior discoveries. Please don't try to kill the discussion just because you don't agree. JCRB (talk) 21:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Additional SourcesTo move forward, I will produce a number of additional sources to support that both the Portuguese and the Torres discoveries deserve a mention. First, let me say that when reading the contradicting versions of the discovery of Australia, it was surprising to see that most sources agreed that Willem Janszoon had arrived before Torres. The Dutch explorer was there in March 1606, whereas Torres arrived in August or September 1606. If Torres had sighted Australia after the Dutch, why do historians like Earp (1852) or Collingridge (1895) claim that Torres discovered it? Or why do many others like Clark (1962), Rients (1969) and Ziegler (1970) dwell on this possibility? Why the debate if Janszoon clearly preceded Torres? I looked into this and found out that Janszoon actually ignored he was in Australia. Janszoon thought he was in a southern extension of New Guinea [10]. That's why authors such as Collingridge claim that Torres discovered the continent, not Janszoon. The Dutch navigator thought he was sailing along the south of New Guinea, not in a new island. This fact would disqualify him as the "first discoverer". This is an extract from the Project Gutemberg Australia article cited above:
So Janszoon thought he was sailing along the south coast of New Guinea. Now, Torres also saw Australia, but was "unaware of the fact" (according to most historians) because there are no records of his discovery. However, unlike Janszoon, Torres did know the land he saw was a separate island. He could have known this because he sailed the strait (Torres Strait) that separates New Guinea from Australia. Clark (1962) says "what he noticed was an archipelago of islands without number." [11] So, if Torres saw a new landmass separate from New Guinea which (supposedly) no other explorers had seen before, why didn't he claim this discovery? Why are there no charts of Northern Australia from Torres' expedition? Well, according to Trickett in his book "Beyond Capricorn" (2007) which follows the thesis of Kenneth McIntyre (1977) and Fitzgerald (1984), Torres already had information about that strait. That's why he did not claim its discovery. Trickett argues that being Portuguese, Torres knew about the early discoveries of Cristóvão de Mendonça, the navigator who "discovered" Australia in 1521 according to the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia. Haiblen (2007) writes the following about Trickett's thesis in Clio Journal of History (Dickinson College):
This evidence links the Mendonça voyage in the Theory of Portuguese discovery with the thesis that Torres discovered Australia, or that in fact, he re-discovered it. Earp wrote in his book "Gold Colonies of Australia":
So Torres most likey already knew the strait, as well as Australia itself, that's why he did not claim to have discovered either of them. As for the absence of records of his voyage (almost a century after Mendonça's expedition) again the reason is the secrecy with which Portuguese and Spanish explorations were conducted. This has been explained before in this talk page. In fact, the British only came to know about Torres' expedition 150 years later, when Manila (part of the Spanish East Indies) was briefly occupied by British troops in 1762. (Curiously, this was only 8 years before James Cook arrived in Australia). Earp explains:
To conclude, Portuguese navigator Luis Vaz de Torres crossed the strait that bears his name, and sighted Australia (northern tip of Cape York) which he recognized as a separate island in 1606. Although Dutch explorer Janszoon preceded Torres in sighting (and landing) in Australia, he did not recognise it, believing it was an extension of New Guinea. This fact weakens the thesis that Janszoon "discovered Australia". Also, the above sources suggest that Torres had prior knowledge of both Australia and the Torres Strait. Not only did he "pronounce the country an island" with little evidence, but he did not claim such an important discovery. The possibility of Torres having "inside knowledge" of Mendonça's voyages of 1521 "because he was Portuguese" (as Haiblen suggests) is reinforced by the fact that this was the period of the Iberian Union, when the crowns of Portugal and Spain were united under Philip II and later Philip III of Spain. During this time, all matters relating to the Indies came under the control of the Spanish Council of the Indies, suggesting that all Spanish expeditions from the late 16th century already knew about Mendonça's voyage. In my opinion, all of the above exceedingly justifies a small mention of both Torres and the Portuguese discovery of 1521, which are in fact historically related. JCRB (talk) 00:56, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi JCRB -you seem to be determined to debate with someone what you’ve written, so here’s what I mean by “historical short-cuts” and pushing your own POV:
I actually think its odds on the Spanish voyage under Torres sighted Cape York. But I dont think it warrants mention here for the reasons I mentioned some days ago. Having said my piece again, please note I'm not a contributor to this page. I think you need to accept consensus and move onto something new! Nickm57 (talk) 11:30, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Been watching this from the sidelines for a while. My interest in this aspect of Australia's history woud be satisfied with a sentence in the article saying There is some (considerable?) speculation among historians regarding the possibility that earlier European explorers may also have sighted the Australian coastline. Follow it by as many references as people want to add. HiLo48 (talk) 20:16, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Proposed textChipmunkdavis, I don't think that short reference to the alternative theory is giving it "too much weight". It's just one sentence. As for the mention of Torres' voyage, I can't think of a much shorter reference. Maybe you prefer the following:
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Seeking consensus to close discussion
I'd like to formally propose that we close and archive this discussion. It's clearly going nowhere and until such time as it's closed, JCRB is going to keep adding content regardless of the fact that, despite weeks of discussion, there has been no consensus to endorse any of his proposals and plenty of opposition to everything he's suggested. Can we please reach some consensus, otherwise the page is going to be 99.999% pointless discussion, instead of just 92%. --AussieLegend (talk) 14:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed. Close it down. I'm not even going to give any reasons why, or JCRB will start arguing again.--Dmol (talk) 10:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed. CLose it down now. It's already passed the point of disruption. --Merbabu (talk) 10:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed. Pointless POV-pushing by JCRB which is not benefiting the article in anyway. No point on continuing on the road which takes you to a dead end. Bidgee (talk) 11:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
"Australia has strong international teams in cricket..."
Is this still the case? Given that the men's team is no longer ranked in the top four of the ten "test cricket nations". In addition I note that the criteria used for suggesting that Australia is "strong" at the sport relates to the one day form of the game which many expert commentators is now suggesting is becoming moribund. Silent Billy (talk) 22:16, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, no longer in the top four, but they're still in the top ten, out of the 200 or so countries in the world. Sure, most don't play international cricket, but it's still a pretty strong position. I would draw a parallel with a game like baseball. Beyond the top three or four countries, baseball would be a minor sport, but we would probably still say that the fifth best team is a strong one (out of 200). HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- Also, consider that wikipedia is meant to take a long-term view. Australia has for many decades been strong interenational side. A recent fall in form is just that - recent. Perhaps the article wording could be tweaked to something like "long been a strong international team" or similiar. see WP:RECENT. --Merbabu (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm with Merbabu, per RECENT, with a reference that says that Aust has historically been a strong cricket team. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- You guys waste too much of your lunch money YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm with Merbabu, per RECENT, with a reference that says that Aust has historically been a strong cricket team. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- Also, consider that wikipedia is meant to take a long-term view. Australia has for many decades been strong interenational side. A recent fall in form is just that - recent. Perhaps the article wording could be tweaked to something like "long been a strong international team" or similiar. see WP:RECENT. --Merbabu (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Formal name of the Monarch. The present Elizabeth is Australia's first Elizabeth, not second.
In the infobox we are told that the Monarch is Elizabeth II. Is this name technically correct? Elizabeth I was never monarch of Australia. The present one is the first Elizabeth who has been monarch of Australia, not the second. HiLo48 (talk) 17:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- The present one isn't Elizabeth I one though, she's Elizabeth II, regardless of the fact that she's the first Elizabeth to be our queen. This discussion has been had somewhere but I can't remember where I saw it. I do remember though that Elizabeth II was correct. --AussieLegend (talk) 17:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- It would be interesting to see that discussion. It's been during my lifetime that she became formally known as Queen of Australia. I'm not pushing a POV here. I'm sure there would be a formal protocol or something. But it just sort of makes sense to me that that addition of Australia to her title would have made her Queen Elizabeth I of Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 20:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe an initial step would be finding a credible external reference saying that the current Queen is called "Queen Elizabeth I of Australia". Format (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not pushing for a change if the title is right. Just wondering why it is the way that it is. I've done some research and reached List of titles and honours of Queen Elizabeth II. It has a section called Scottish controversy which says "...only in Scotland did the title Elizabeth II cause controversy as there had never been an Elizabeth I in Scotland." A legal case was made, but "lost on the grounds that the pursuers had not title to sue the Crown". All very interesting. I learnt a lot on my way to that point. It's all very complicated. HiLo48 (talk) 07:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe an initial step would be finding a credible external reference saying that the current Queen is called "Queen Elizabeth I of Australia". Format (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- It would be interesting to see that discussion. It's been during my lifetime that she became formally known as Queen of Australia. I'm not pushing a POV here. I'm sure there would be a formal protocol or something. But it just sort of makes sense to me that that addition of Australia to her title would have made her Queen Elizabeth I of Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 20:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
First sighting of Australia by Queiros
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According to some sources, the first European to see the Australian continent was Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós (Quiros in Spanish) who sailed the South Pacific in 1605. The members of his expedition saw the northern tip of Australia, though they did not make landfall. Quirós landed on a large island which he took to be part of the southern continent, and named it La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo (The Austrian Land of the Holy Spirit), for King Philip III, who belonged to the House of Habsburg or House of Austria. The island was in fact in the New Hebrides archipelago, today the country of Vanuatu. The island is still called Espiritu Santo. This information is not in the article. I have therefore included the following sentences:
The discovery of Australia is contested between Dutch explorer Willem Janszoon and Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandez de Queiros. There are references for both interpretations, all of them reliable. This is why I suggest using the term "probably" when mentioning Queiros' first sighting of the Australian mainland. JCRB (talk) 13:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments. Again, I am not arguing that Torres or Queiros sighted Australia for certain before the Dutch, rather, that this possibility exists, and that it should be mentioned. Regarding the Portuguese discovery of Australia in 1522, yes I have read about that. They called it Jave La Grande ("Jave the Great") and there are 16th century maps of a coast very similar to the Australian coast with Portuguese names on it. Maybe this should also be mentioned with a link to the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia. Regarding the Etymology of Australia, I think the issue needs no further explanation: In "A note of Australia del Espíritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt and published by Samuel Purchas in Hakluytus Posthumus" English writer Richard Hakluyt talks about Espiritu Santo island, discovered by Queiros in 1606 which he called "Austrialia del Espiritu Santo". Queiros belived he was in Australia. What part of that historical and etymological link don't you see? JCRB (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
No, no confusion at all. If the "first recorded use of the word Australia in English" was in "A note of Australia del Espíritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt and published by Samuel Purchas in Hakluytus Posthumus", then the article should say where this name came from. Regardless of where they were (Queiros was indeed in Vanuatu) the point is the name "Australia del Espiritu Santo" came from Queiros' expedition, which landed in Espiritu Santo and called the island that way (thinking he was in mainland Australia). A short sentence mentioning this should be enough. That's all. JCRB (talk) 03:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
I have once more removed the contested information because as far as I can see, there is not any consensus for its addition. It is a reference to a totally different place thousands of miles away.--Dmol (talk) 12:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Dmol, the reasons have not been explained ad nauseam. The expression "ad nauseam" applies to very long, unproductive and tiresome discussions. We have only started discussing the Etymology issue recently. I wish you provided reasonable arguments beyond "there is no consensus". CJ, I partly agree with you, and I appreciate your reasoning. If the article mentions the earlist recorded use of the word in English, it should also say "where this name came from". I also think that it should say who gave it this name: navigator Pedro Fernandes Queiros who landed in the main island of Vanuatu, thinking he was on mainland Terra Australis. By the way, the Spanish article on Australia says that "Austr-i-alia" has a double etymological root: "Austria" (for the Habsburgs of Austria, the Spanish dynasty of the time) and "Austral" meaning southern (Queiros was searching for Terra Australis or "Southern Land"). The combined "Austrialia" was later corrupted or translated incorrectly to English as "Australia" [17] JCRB (talk) 14:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with that. The current sentence should be sufficient. Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
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Edit request from MelbGuy1, 29 September 2010
{{edit semi-protected}}
as of august 2010 australia's unemployment rate is 5.1 percent, reference link: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0
MelbGuy1 (talk) 22:09, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Done Thanks, Stickee (talk) 00:05, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
re: biggest worldwide selling albums missing
If Opera and Symphony's get a paragraph, contemporary music deserves a mention.
referring to wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_worldwide
ACDC's back in black is the second biggest selling album of all time, the Bee Gee's ranked 9th with Saturday Night Fever. There are other notable internationally acclaimed musicians (eg. kylie minogue, olivia newton john, inxs, jet). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.190.211.91 (talk) 18:26, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
The theory of Portuguese discovery and Torres...
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Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Nickm57, yes, I meant the "first sighting by Torres" who was part of Queiros' original expedition. Indeed, there are different sources which prove this first sighting. You mentioned Brett Hilder and his "high likelyhood" that this ocurred. There are other sources. In The First Discovery of Australia and New Guinea (1906) [19] the author, George Collingridge says:
See this map for the full route of Torres [20]. In a timeline at the end of the book, Collingridge also writes: "1606. Torres sails towards Australia from the New Hebrides, passes through the straits that bear his name, and discovers Australia, without, apparently, being aware of the fact." So according to this historian Torres was the first European to sight Australia (and to sail its waters) although he did not make landfall. Regarding the prior discovery of Australia by the Portuguese, there are also a number of sources which prove this, largely based on the Dieppe maps, specially this one [21] and this one [22] which show the Australian landmass south of Java and Sumatra, but farther to the east. In the same work Collingridge explains that these maps were purposely distorted by the Portuguese so that Australia appeared in the hemisphere assigned to Portugal by Pope Alexander (in the Treaty of Tordesillas). Collingridge provides an interesting illustration comparing the real and the fictitious location of Australia here [23]. He also explains:
So according to the above information, both Torres (in 1606) and the Portuguese (in the 16th century) arrived in Australia before the Dutch. Whether they made this knowledge available to other Europeans or not, is not really the point. Many discoveries were kept secret during the 16th and 17th centuries so that competing nations did not threaten trade or power in the newly discovered regions. Regarding the fictitious position of Australia in the above-mentioned map, this is what Spanish pilot Juan Gaetan said about the Portuguese charts:
So clearly it was customary to protect valuable information like maps and trade routes by keeping them secret and even falsifying documents. With this in mind, it seems highly probably that the Portuguese arrived Australia in the 16th century. Therefore, the article should mention both of these prior discoveries. JCRB (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Generally unknown discoveries: European maritime expeditions from the Age of Exploration up to the 18th century were usually kept secret to prevent rival powers from gaining access to profitable trade, or from establishing bases that would threaten their colonies. This meant either locking away the documents that recorded the discovery, or distorting the charts as I explained above. Discussing 18th century Spanish travel literature, Professor Garcia Sanchez from Eastern Washington University writes:
There are territories which the Portuguese or the Spanish discovered in the 16th century, but due to the policy of discretion this has not been acknowledged sufficiently. In territories where a different European power eventually took over, this is specially the case. For example, according to this theory Hawaii was probably discovered by the Spanish in 1555. See also this article[25]. The discovery of the Spice Islands or Moluccas was also kept secret by the Portuguese for a few decades until the unification of Spain and Portugal under the Iberian Union. The route of the Manila Galleons itself was kept rigorously secret for almost its full duration (1565-1815) allowing the Viceroyalty of New Spain and the Casa de Contratacion to operate a transpacific monopoly between the Philippines and the Americas undisturbed for at least one century. So not all discoveries were disclosed. In fact, documents of exploration such as logbooks and maps were sometimes locked away for a very long time. According to this book [4] (quoting the WP article) "the Hawaiian islands were not known to have any valuable resources, so the Spanish would have not made an effort to settle them". The same thing happened to the Mariana Islands (specially Guam) discovered by Magellan in 1521, and visited by various explorers afterwards (among them Legazpi and Urdaneta in 1565) but not settled until 1668. Scope of the history section: As for the scope of the history section, I think we need to be more open-minded towards information that we are not used to. Just because the Portuguese discovery of Australia is not mainstream in English-language literature, does not mean it is inaccurate. Just because the Torres discovery is not "generally accepted" nowadays does not mean it should be ruled out. Let the reader decide that for himself. A short mention of these two possible discoveries and a link does not in any way harm the article. What's more, it contributes to it. JCRB (talk) 18:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. I think I've produced sufficient sources to justify at least a small reference to the prior discoveries. These are not "obscure matters" but verifiable information which is relevant to the article. JCRB (talk) 16:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't say a constructive discussion "stinks". All of this is useful information about Australia's early history. As for the "dead horse"(?) the long discussion was about Etymology. That's over. This discussion is about prior discoveries. Please don't try to kill the discussion just because you don't agree. JCRB (talk) 21:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Additional SourcesTo move forward, I will produce a number of additional sources to support that both the Portuguese and the Torres discoveries deserve a mention. First, let me say that when reading the contradicting versions of the discovery of Australia, it was surprising to see that most sources agreed that Willem Janszoon had arrived before Torres. The Dutch explorer was there in March 1606, whereas Torres arrived in August or September 1606. If Torres had sighted Australia after the Dutch, why do historians like Earp (1852) or Collingridge (1895) claim that Torres discovered it? Or why do many others like Clark (1962), Rients (1969) and Ziegler (1970) dwell on this possibility? Why the debate if Janszoon clearly preceded Torres? I looked into this and found out that Janszoon actually ignored he was in Australia. Janszoon thought he was in a southern extension of New Guinea [26]. That's why authors such as Collingridge claim that Torres discovered the continent, not Janszoon. The Dutch navigator thought he was sailing along the south of New Guinea, not in a new island. This fact would disqualify him as the "first discoverer". This is an extract from the Project Gutemberg Australia article cited above:
So Janszoon thought he was sailing along the south coast of New Guinea. Now, Torres also saw Australia, but was "unaware of the fact" (according to most historians) because there are no records of his discovery. However, unlike Janszoon, Torres did know the land he saw was a separate island. He could have known this because he sailed the strait (Torres Strait) that separates New Guinea from Australia. Clark (1962) says "what he noticed was an archipelago of islands without number." [27] So, if Torres saw a new landmass separate from New Guinea which (supposedly) no other explorers had seen before, why didn't he claim this discovery? Why are there no charts of Northern Australia from Torres' expedition? Well, according to Trickett in his book "Beyond Capricorn" (2007) which follows the thesis of Kenneth McIntyre (1977) and Fitzgerald (1984), Torres already had information about that strait. That's why he did not claim its discovery. Trickett argues that being Portuguese, Torres knew about the early discoveries of Cristóvão de Mendonça, the navigator who "discovered" Australia in 1521 according to the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia. Haiblen (2007) writes the following about Trickett's thesis in Clio Journal of History (Dickinson College):
This evidence links the Mendonça voyage in the Theory of Portuguese discovery with the thesis that Torres discovered Australia, or that in fact, he re-discovered it. Earp wrote in his book "Gold Colonies of Australia":
So Torres most likey already knew the strait, as well as Australia itself, that's why he did not claim to have discovered either of them. As for the absence of records of his voyage (almost a century after Mendonça's expedition) again the reason is the secrecy with which Portuguese and Spanish explorations were conducted. This has been explained before in this talk page. In fact, the British only came to know about Torres' expedition 150 years later, when Manila (part of the Spanish East Indies) was briefly occupied by British troops in 1762. (Curiously, this was only 8 years before James Cook arrived in Australia). Earp explains:
To conclude, Portuguese navigator Luis Vaz de Torres crossed the strait that bears his name, and sighted Australia (northern tip of Cape York) which he recognized as a separate island in 1606. Although Dutch explorer Janszoon preceded Torres in sighting (and landing) in Australia, he did not recognise it, believing it was an extension of New Guinea. This fact weakens the thesis that Janszoon "discovered Australia". Also, the above sources suggest that Torres had prior knowledge of both Australia and the Torres Strait. Not only did he "pronounce the country an island" with little evidence, but he did not claim such an important discovery. The possibility of Torres having "inside knowledge" of Mendonça's voyages of 1521 "because he was Portuguese" (as Haiblen suggests) is reinforced by the fact that this was the period of the Iberian Union, when the crowns of Portugal and Spain were united under Philip II and later Philip III of Spain. During this time, all matters relating to the Indies came under the control of the Spanish Council of the Indies, suggesting that all Spanish expeditions from the late 16th century already knew about Mendonça's voyage. In my opinion, all of the above exceedingly justifies a small mention of both Torres and the Portuguese discovery of 1521, which are in fact historically related. JCRB (talk) 00:56, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi JCRB -you seem to be determined to debate with someone what you’ve written, so here’s what I mean by “historical short-cuts” and pushing your own POV:
I actually think its odds on the Spanish voyage under Torres sighted Cape York. But I dont think it warrants mention here for the reasons I mentioned some days ago. Having said my piece again, please note I'm not a contributor to this page. I think you need to accept consensus and move onto something new! Nickm57 (talk) 11:30, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Been watching this from the sidelines for a while. My interest in this aspect of Australia's history woud be satisfied with a sentence in the article saying There is some (considerable?) speculation among historians regarding the possibility that earlier European explorers may also have sighted the Australian coastline. Follow it by as many references as people want to add. HiLo48 (talk) 20:16, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Proposed textChipmunkdavis, I don't think that short reference to the alternative theory is giving it "too much weight". It's just one sentence. As for the mention of Torres' voyage, I can't think of a much shorter reference. Maybe you prefer the following:
|
Seeking consensus to close discussion
I'd like to formally propose that we close and archive this discussion. It's clearly going nowhere and until such time as it's closed, JCRB is going to keep adding content regardless of the fact that, despite weeks of discussion, there has been no consensus to endorse any of his proposals and plenty of opposition to everything he's suggested. Can we please reach some consensus, otherwise the page is going to be 99.999% pointless discussion, instead of just 92%. --AussieLegend (talk) 14:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed. Close it down. I'm not even going to give any reasons why, or JCRB will start arguing again.--Dmol (talk) 10:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed. CLose it down now. It's already passed the point of disruption. --Merbabu (talk) 10:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed. Pointless POV-pushing by JCRB which is not benefiting the article in anyway. No point on continuing on the road which takes you to a dead end. Bidgee (talk) 11:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
"Australia has strong international teams in cricket..."
Is this still the case? Given that the men's team is no longer ranked in the top four of the ten "test cricket nations". In addition I note that the criteria used for suggesting that Australia is "strong" at the sport relates to the one day form of the game which many expert commentators is now suggesting is becoming moribund. Silent Billy (talk) 22:16, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, no longer in the top four, but they're still in the top ten, out of the 200 or so countries in the world. Sure, most don't play international cricket, but it's still a pretty strong position. I would draw a parallel with a game like baseball. Beyond the top three or four countries, baseball would be a minor sport, but we would probably still say that the fifth best team is a strong one (out of 200). HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- Also, consider that wikipedia is meant to take a long-term view. Australia has for many decades been strong interenational side. A recent fall in form is just that - recent. Perhaps the article wording could be tweaked to something like "long been a strong international team" or similiar. see WP:RECENT. --Merbabu (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm with Merbabu, per RECENT, with a reference that says that Aust has historically been a strong cricket team. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- You guys waste too much of your lunch money YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm with Merbabu, per RECENT, with a reference that says that Aust has historically been a strong cricket team. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- Also, consider that wikipedia is meant to take a long-term view. Australia has for many decades been strong interenational side. A recent fall in form is just that - recent. Perhaps the article wording could be tweaked to something like "long been a strong international team" or similiar. see WP:RECENT. --Merbabu (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Formal name of the Monarch. The present Elizabeth is Australia's first Elizabeth, not second.
In the infobox we are told that the Monarch is Elizabeth II. Is this name technically correct? Elizabeth I was never monarch of Australia. The present one is the first Elizabeth who has been monarch of Australia, not the second. HiLo48 (talk) 17:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- The present one isn't Elizabeth I one though, she's Elizabeth II, regardless of the fact that she's the first Elizabeth to be our queen. This discussion has been had somewhere but I can't remember where I saw it. I do remember though that Elizabeth II was correct. --AussieLegend (talk) 17:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- It would be interesting to see that discussion. It's been during my lifetime that she became formally known as Queen of Australia. I'm not pushing a POV here. I'm sure there would be a formal protocol or something. But it just sort of makes sense to me that that addition of Australia to her title would have made her Queen Elizabeth I of Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 20:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe an initial step would be finding a credible external reference saying that the current Queen is called "Queen Elizabeth I of Australia". Format (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not pushing for a change if the title is right. Just wondering why it is the way that it is. I've done some research and reached List of titles and honours of Queen Elizabeth II. It has a section called Scottish controversy which says "...only in Scotland did the title Elizabeth II cause controversy as there had never been an Elizabeth I in Scotland." A legal case was made, but "lost on the grounds that the pursuers had not title to sue the Crown". All very interesting. I learnt a lot on my way to that point. It's all very complicated. HiLo48 (talk) 07:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe an initial step would be finding a credible external reference saying that the current Queen is called "Queen Elizabeth I of Australia". Format (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- It would be interesting to see that discussion. It's been during my lifetime that she became formally known as Queen of Australia. I'm not pushing a POV here. I'm sure there would be a formal protocol or something. But it just sort of makes sense to me that that addition of Australia to her title would have made her Queen Elizabeth I of Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 20:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- ^ See accounts of the voyage cited, eg Estensen, M (2006)
- ^ Moran, cited in Richardson, W.A.R. (2006) Was Australia charted before 1606? p. 20. National Library of Australia ISBN 0642 276420
- ^ Cardinal Moran's Discovery of Australia by de Quirós in the Year 1606 [33]
- ^ a b Kane, Herb Kawainui (1996). "The Manila Galleons". In Bob Dye (ed.). Hawaiʻ Chronicles: Island History from the Pages of Honolulu Magazine. Vol. I. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press. pp. 25–32. ISBN 0-8248-1829-6.
- ^ An obituary written in 2005 can be found at
- ^ Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Board. Australian History Course Design 1983-1987 citation incomplete
- ^ MacKnight, CC (1976). The Voyage to Marege: Macassan Trepangers in Northern Australia. Melbourne University Press.
- ^ a b c d Translation of Torres’ report to the king in Collingridge, G. (1895) Discovery of Australia. Golden Press Edition 1983, Gradesville, NSW. ISBN 0 855589566
- ^ MacKnight, CC (1976). The Voyage to Marege: Macassan Trepangers in Northern Australia. Melbourne University Press.
- ^ McIntyre, K.G. (1977) The Secret Discovery of Australia, Portuguese ventures 200 years before Cook, p. 69, Souvenir Press, Menindie ISBN 028562303 6
- ^ See accounts of the voyage cited, eg Estensen, M (2006)
- ^ Moran, cited in Richardson, W.A.R. (2006) Was Australia charted before 1606? p. 20. National Library of Australia ISBN 0642 276420
- ^ Cardinal Moran's Discovery of Australia by de Quirós in the Year 1606 [34]
- ^ An obituary written in 2005 can be found at
- ^ Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Board. Australian History Course Design 1983-1987 citation incomplete
- ^ MacKnight, CC (1976). The Voyage to Marege: Macassan Trepangers in Northern Australia. Melbourne University Press.
- ^ MacKnight, CC (1976). The Voyage to Marege: Macassan Trepangers in Northern Australia. Melbourne University Press.
- ^ McIntyre, K.G. (1977) The Secret Discovery of Australia, Portuguese ventures 200 years before Cook, p. 69, Souvenir Press, Menindie ISBN 028562303 6
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