Talk:Muhammad

Edit request from 180.149.48.51, 26 October 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} sir, the work of wiki is undoubtedly unmatchable,but i have one request regarding this page on MUHAMMAD(SAW), ..

kindly add "(PBUH)" after his name as "MUHAMMAD(SAW,PBUH)",the personality which is in itself unmatchabl, and not only this place it after the name of each PROPHETS mentioned in QURAN.

I shall be ever thankfull to you for your cooperation.

may GOD(ALLAH) bless us all.

thank you

180.149.48.51 (talk) 07:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

 Question: Why would you place SAW and PBUSH after the MUHAMMAD? Thanks, Stickee (talk) 08:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

PBUH stands for peace be upon him. Muslims use it to politely refer to Muhammad. It is not required for other to do the same, but it's polite.--Editor510 ^{drop us a line, mate} 21:52, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Please see WP:PBUH for editorial policy on Islamic honorifics. Peace be upon you. --S. Rich (talk) 15:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Hey srich32977, if you can't honor someones traditions, then why are you an editor on this page? I did write a credibility note regarding this pages entirety since there not a single sign of respect on this page. Please have this page removed. HShaltout747 —Preceding undated comment added 15:25, 12 December 2010 (UTC).

HShaltout747: if you read WP:PBUH you'll see why we don't use honorifics. Please read the FAQ on why we don't follow the Islamic rules. Which are different for some factions of the religion I might add. And Shaykh Abd al-Aziz ibn Abd Allah ibn Baaz has mentioned that abbreviating the Salah goes against a command of Allah. (See section Commentary regarding abbreviating the Salah on Muhammad at Peace be upon him (Islam)). Jarkeld (talk) 16:21, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Wait a minute i thought we are talking about an article about islam? or are we talking about something different? i mean, its okay to follow the islamic rules in one way and non islamic in another, referring to the point that its okay to display the images of the prophet and at the same time you can remove the honorary titles because you feel okay with that. Peace be upon you my friend. Again, i repeat my questioning, the writers have no background about islam, nor its traditions and have no respect whatsoever for the readers. I ask you to remove the entire post because of continued illiteracy regarding the topic. comment added by HShaltout747 —Preceding undated comment added 19:56, 12 December 2010 (UTC).

Actually, it's an article about Muhammad as a historical figure. Religious beliefs about him are documented, but they aren't the focus of the article, and actually holding those beliefs isn't a requirement for editing the article.—Kww(talk) 20:04, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

All im asking is that if your writing about a religious historical figure that he be portrayed in that exact same way. If its such an ordeal and an impossible task, then i ask that the page be removed for credibility reasons. HShaltout747 (talk) 20:19, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

We don't delete pages for reasons like that. We have a deletion process, but we'd only delete for reasons to do with our guidelines ans policies and even that requires some sort of consensus. Religious beliefs should not influence our articles. Dougweller (talk) 21:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Bureaucracy??. Your talking about bureaucracy here? on wikipedia?? i thought this was an encyclopedia talking about facts. Dude, if your talking about history then you mention historical facts and their dates and influences, right? and if your talking about religion then you HAVE TO MENTION RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Dude were humans, were smart and were not bots. FOR GODS SAKE MAN, you could atleast mention the belief, if you dont want to mention the honorifics, they can be atleast mentioned (eg, Muhammad (as in islamic beleifs PBUH, and where ever you want to display an image, you can put it on a separate page and put a footnote saying displaying of this image is not honored by muslims). This way everyone would be happy with your legitimate and truthful warnings and notes, heck you can even throw in some of your favorite references and policies if you like. On the other hand, if you cant be responsible for the creativity of the content then please have it removed. HShaltout747 (talk) 23:22, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

There is a page about the depiction of Muhammad & the controversy at Depictions of Muhammad. Jarkeld (talk) 23:27, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

You put the controversy on a separate page and not the images? I wont go through that point.. but im reading there now.. brb.. HShaltout747 (talk) 23:48, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

You (HShaltout747) aren't asking for facts, you're asking for the format of the article to be a certain way. As Jarkeld notes, we do have an article that explains the facts about both the religious and non-religious perspectives on the pictures of Muhammad. Similarly, we have an article that explains, in detail, various perspectives on the use of PBUH, at Peace be upon him (Islam). That should satisfy your request for facts, right? Finally, if you personally don't want to see images of Muhammad, you can actually block them. Full information can be found on question 3 of the FAQ, here: Talk:Muhammad/FAQ. We don't have any way to make it so that the article automatically adds in PBUH after the Prophet's name, but at least we can help you out with the images. Note that our policies are not different than any other Western encyclopedia--if you look in Encyclopedia Brittanica, for example, you will both see images of the Prophet and no use of PBUH or other honorifics.

Chill dude, were on the same side, im just trying to show the reading public the facts. Since readers want to know about the prophet then they should know EVERYTHING, right? Im still reading through the article that Jarkeld pointed out.. oh btw i did try that css thing, and it didnt work. Im still getting the images being loaded on the Muhammad (PBUH) page. And like i said earlier, if you cant handle the responsibility, then you shouldnt even be posting that page.. As for the Brittanica comparision... so that makes wiki any more credible huh? Guess ur happy knowing ur much better now huh?... HShaltout747 (talk) 02:01, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

What about presenting images by "put it on a separate page and put a footnote saying displaying of this image is not honored by muslims" is a part of presenting facts? That would be acting as if Islamic beliefs should influence our behaviour, not presenting a fact about Muhammed.—Kww(talk) 02:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I was implying that we should tell the valuable readers the FULL truth. Meaning: if you want to show the viewers a realistic photo of the prophet, and you believe that is probably a good thing, then i was supposing that we might as well tell the readers that even though we are displaying this image, please note that it is not accepted by the Muslim public in general as a footnote. Incase you don't find such a truthful message appealing for you on the main page of the article, then i was suggesting of putting the entire images WITH the footnote on a separate page, whichever is more convenient for you. HShaltout747 (talk) 16:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

You mean like at Depictions_of_Muhammad?JanetteDoe (talk) 17:17, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

We also have an entire article dedicated to the subject of Aniconism in Islam. Note that not all Muslims object to such images, there are widely varying degrees of tolerance. In short, these images won't be moved or removed, and our coverage of the subject is appropriate for an encyclopedia. Doc Tropics 20:39, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

As for your question about "realistic photos", this is covered in the answer to Q2 of the FAQ on Muhammad. Your question of "not accepted by the Muslim public in general" is addressed in Q1 of the FAQ on Muhammad.JanetteDoe (talk) 21:41, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Look here is a living example: couple of years ago, there was a famous tv series that was about the life of the late Sheikh Al Shaarawy, which was acted by a famous egyptian actor. In the early years of this actor, his life was considered as a normal movie star would live, hang out, drink, women u know..not the religious contemporary lifestyle. Eventually the actor was selected to do the role for the infamous Sheikh Al Shaarawy, which i think he did it well, regarding his profession. During that period he started selecting religious characters to act for other tv shows, and he started to follow the faith. Sounds good yeh? Today that actor has selected to do various characters at the moment, and not relating to religious ones. Do you see my flow? Im talking about symbolizing the actor to the character. Now back to our track of our conversation regarding the prophet? The public muslim community does not find a suitable character to symbolize the prophet. So by displaying any sort of image, you are already falsifying that image in itself, hence the entire articles credibility. Im trying to explain the full truth, which you only want to show half of to the general public. On a different point the depictions page you have linked to, is a depiction entirely on itself. How am i supposed to explain or discuss anything there? Why is the south park photo there? have we really gone that far?

where is the human reasoning? how is anyone supposed to learn anything from a south park photo depicting the prophet? You speak about an encyclopedia. You speak of knowledge. You speak of Reasoning. Show me where i am wrong in this? I am not asking you to change your ways, im not asking you to censor any material. All im asking is that you speak the full truth about the matter, don't hide behind bureaucracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HShaltout747 (talk • contribs) 23:38, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I'll try one more time, and I'll be much blunter than usual in order to try to get the message through: religious beliefs are irrelevant to the construction of an encyclopedia. It simply doesn't matter what Islamic religious beliefs would be about what material should be included, what should not, and how it should or should not be depicted. All decisions about content are made on a purely secular basis. Islamic beliefs about the depiction of Muhammad are discussed in great detail in multiple articles, but they do not guide the construction of the article.—Kww(talk) 00:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Kww isn't just expressing a personal opinion, but the clear will of the community based on many lengthy discussions, as espoused in various policies. This is not "bureaucracy", it is a community of individuals dedicated to the encyclopedic goals of our shared project. Doc Tropics 00:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Look dude, browse to the George_W._Bush page (In popular culture) and tell me that was the most you can write about or even put some south park photos of the 43 president. You could might as well, thrown in some bushisms for education, or how about those monkey emails we all got through our spam? nope? not depictions of the president? or not worth your time writing about that?

Im reaching my end here, i see im talking to a wall. Problem is im an idealist, one man can't change the world.. so im gonna go back to my realist life and quit this jib-jabbing. Lemme go find that youtube video portraying Akhmed the terrorist and try to laugh my face off before i start to be called a terrorist myself. In true honesty thank you for even replying. PEACE! HShaltout747 (talk) 13:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Ahmadiyya is not a Muslims

all Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last prophet --213.166.157.24 (talk) 05:24, 14 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.166.157.24 (talk) 05:22, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I suspect "all Muslims" may be a very big generalization. Do you have any citations to back up that claim? Best, ROBERTMFROMLI ^TALK/_CNTRB 05:35, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

"all Muslims" is not a generalization at all. in fact, believing that Muhammad is the last prophet is one of the fundamentals of Islam. Hence, one is not a Muslim if he believes otherwise. so ahmadiyyas are not Muslims. sorry, but i dint kno where to comment. - Irisrune —Preceding undated comment added 19:38, December 10, 2010 (UTC).

See Talk:Muhammad/Archive 24#All Muslims. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 12:50, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

They disagree and consider themselves Muslims, right? Christians have the same issues with other Christians, claiming some groups are really Christian (true Christian) and others aren't Christian. Wikipedia doesn't take sides on issues such as this and is not going to declare that some groups are Muslim/Christian and others are not. Dougweller (talk) 18:54, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Respect as to other religions.

Listen is this Wikipedia used alone for its users and administrators? Or is it used for the hundreds of thousands audiences that watch this page. If this page was used by your moderators alone then it would be polite to remove these images. If this Wikipedia article is used for reference by thousands if not even more Muslims and non Muslims alike then why would you continue to show any respect in the least regards for Muslims. They specifically asked you to remove these pictures but you had refused referring to some talk between your staff. Again these pictures are extremely offensive to the Muslims world not the Arab world as many people mistake. It doesn't matter if these pictures are censored or not. Posting up pictures of our Prophet(pbuh) overrules everything and comes out to be extremely wrong. Can you please remove these pictures of our beloved prophet (pbuh) who specifically request his nation not to draw people's faces and especially himself, because he had feared his people to start worshiping him as they did to the Messiah, Nabi Isa (A.S) or Jesus A.S,. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdul3basid (talk • contribs) 15:55, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

No. Please read Talk:Muhammad/FAQ. In there you will also find instructions to prevent your browser from showing the images in this article. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:07, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Is a typically Christian response, showing ignorance and disdain for our faith

Edit request from 180.178.187.193, 15 December 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Please kindly remove the picture depicting prophet Mohummad PBUH. I hope you realize the religious sensitivity. Regards

180.178.187.193 (talk) 16:09, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

 Declined Please kindly take the time to read the talk page before making such requests. I hope you realize how annoying it can be to receive repetitive requests. Regards.—Kww(talk) 16:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

discrimination against women?

Fancy.kira has twice now tried to add an unsupported statement saying that Mohammed has been criticised for discrimination against women. The attitude of Islam to women is complex, and I would not support such a sentence without a very good academic source. The consensus of opinion I have seen is that Mohammed at the time gave rights under law to women, who had not previously enjoyed that level of rights under previous regimes - ie he set out to improve the position of women. That these rights today seem unjust and repressive is a feature of changes over time. If there are academic sources that support opposing views, then that should be brought out. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:22, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I would like to request you to either read the Shariah Laws yourself (from Shahih Bukhari) or read about what is happening in the middle east to women. You could take a look at several sites like http://www.homa.org (When a 16 year old girl was shot to death in Northern Tehran for wearing lipstick about a month prior to her death, Dr. Darabi could no longer handle the guilt she felt about her favorable involvement in the Iranian Revolution, and the way women were being treated in Iran, she finally decided to protest the oppression of women by setting herself on fire in a crowded square in northern Tehran, on February 21, 1994. Her last cry was Death to Tyranny Long Live Liberty)

People have been always afraid to say something against Islam or the Muhammad because the Muslims seem to arrest them, execute them and stone them to death. For your kind information, it occurs even now. Use either Google or check this page http://www.homa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=55 --Fancy.kira (talk) 17:45, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Also read the below mentioned text from http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/Younus_Sheikh/IslamWoman.htm of Dr. Younus Shaikh who was given a death sentence by a legal Islamic court in Pakistan for blasphemy.

Before the advent of Islam, the pagan Arab women generally enjoyed a respectable status in society; many of them Khadija- the first wife of the prophet of Islam, had the right to engage in business and choose or dismiss their husbands in a matrilineal fashion; they took part in most activities of war and peace including public worship. In female oriented Arab paganism, goddesses had special status; in Mecca, the female goddess Al-Uzza........

It was highly unusual for a man of pre-Islamic Arab society to have more than one wife in his house; and it is quite certain that polygamy was introduced and encouraged by the prophet after the revelation of Islam.

--Fancy.kira (talk) 18:37, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I invite your attention to Women in Islam. (And, with pages and pages of archived discussions regarding this article, I venture the subject of discrimination has been broached before.)--S. Rich (talk) 19:12, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I would also venture to suggest that this article is not the place to campaign against present day offenses against women by present day Islamic states. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

It isn't fair to judge people in antiquity by modern morality and more importantly that isn't what wikipedia is for. Voiceofreason01 (talk) 19:40, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

In addition to the points above, to add it to this article would require sourcing of criticism against Muhammad, not against Islam. I sympathize with your point, but you really require quite specific sourcing to make it stick.—Kww(talk) 20:35, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. "In female oriented Arab paganism, goddesses had special status" is the sort of fluffy nonsense best left to the 1970s. We can report such opinions if they are voiced in scholarly publications, but it is a waste of everybody's time to raise such points based on something you found on the internet. Women in Islam have enough problems in real life, it isn't necessary to bring up fantasies about a Matriarchal religion pulled down single-handedly by the sinister and moustache-twirling Muhammad. --dab (𒁳) 12:24, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Removed the template

User Jess567 added a template for the article. Though the intentions were probably good, something like that should have been discussed here first. It took a long, long, long time to get a semi-stable compromise for the images used in the article, so consider carefully what you will use in a template. Unflavoured (talk) 07:54, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 86.99.111.131, 29 December 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Please remove the graphic pictures of prophet muhammad from wiki because there is no such photos found so far as prophet Muhammad,it may be a vulgar creations of who want to hurt Muslims.so kindly remove that paintings of Prophet Muhammad

Jamsheerabdulla (talk) 18:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Please read: Wikipedia is not censored and the FAQ on Muhammad about why the pictures will not be removed. Jarkeld (talk) 18:44, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

And there's a notice at the top of this article about it. Dougweller (talk) 06:40, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Infobox

Someone added an infobox, and someone else removed it. Neither edit was made without any explanation.

I don't see the problem with having an infobox in this biography article, although I would use the lead picture already in the article, not a portrait of Muhammad. Jesus and other bios of historical religious figures have infoboxes, why not Muhammad? ~Amatulić (talk) 20:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Now it has been restored, but with the original image of calligraphy per your suggestion. Looks good to me, although the "Known for" text needs to be tweaked a bit. On the whole though, the infobox is useful and brings this article into line with others, so it looks like a "Keep". Doc Tropics 20:51, 30 December 2010 (UTC)