Talk:Taiwan

Issue with highlighting in Map

I invite users who have any concerns regarding this issue to add their input here, under the appropriate section. --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 01:26, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

In favour of "Locator map of the ROC Taiwan.svg" (beige highlighting):

• I prefer the SVG map, it's more detailed. Maybe we can change its color if it's different from other country maps. Laurent (talk) 04:10, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
• I was the editor of the SVG type map... the reason that I worked on it is the original png map obviously difficult to be viewed and inaccurate. In spite of this, if some editors still suppose that the current appearance of SVG type make map which looked choppy or less distinct, I will try to reform it in identical as other locator maps if everyone consider it is necessary...--ILVTW (talk) 22:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

In favour of "LocationROC.png" (green highlighting):

Highlighting inconsistency with PRC Why are we shading Taiwan in the People's Republic of China article, but not the other way around? It would appear to violate neutrality to show one side's unenforceable claims, but not the other side's. Kiralexis (talk) 22:20, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Mongolia

The treatment of Mongolia in this article is flawed on two counts. The article asserts as fact that the ROC still claims Mongolia, when in fact the ROC foreign ministry has stated the contrary: article. There seems to be an argument that this move was against the ROC constitution, however given that "An MOI official said that Mongolia had not been part of ROC territory when the constitution was ratified in 1947 and that the matter should therefore not be considered a constitutional one." [per above article] this argument seems to be just one POV among several, i.e. not a fact.

The article also says that the ROC "encompassed" Outer Mongolia from 1911 to 1949. Given that the ROC had control over Outer Mongolia for less than 18 months (late 1919-early 1921), and that the rest of the period the ROC claims over Mongolia were as theoretical as their post-1949 claims on Mainland China, I think that sentence gives a false impression. There may be some point in mentioning those territorial claims in the lede, but then as what they were - claims, not control.

Pyalh (talk) 01:35, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

P.S. I also added some "dubious"-tags on sentences about Mongolia being part of the ROC in 1947 or 1949. As can be read from the article, the ROC recognized Mongolia's independence in 1946. While I think I remember something about references to Mongolia in the ROC constitution, I believe these tagged statements need at least some more elaboration. Pyalh (talk) 01:59, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Opinions on Adding American CIA involvement against the ROC in "United States involvement and current standpoint"

I seek opinions on adding the following paragraph to this article-

The Anti-communist Kuomintang leader Chiang Kai-shek, President of the Republic of China, believed the Americans were going to plot a coup against him along with Taiwan Independence. In 1950, Chiang Ching-kuo became director of the secret police, which he remained until 1965. Chiang also considered some people who were friends to Americans to be his enemies. An enemy of the Chiang family, Wu Kuo-chen, was kicked out of his position of governor of Taiwan by Chiang Ching-kuo and fled to America in 1953. Chiang Ching-kuo, educated in the Soviet Union, initiated Soviet style military organization in the Republic of China Military, reorganizing and Sovietizing the political officer corps, surveillance, and Kuomintang party activities were propagated throughout the military. Opposed to this was Sun Li-jen, who was educated at the American Virginia Military Institute. Chiang orchestrated the controversial court-martial and arrest of General Sun Li-jen in August 1955, for plotting a coup d'état with the American CIA against his father Chiang Kai-shek and the Kuomintang. The CIA allegedly wanted to help Sun take control of Taiwan and declare its independence.

ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 21:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Although I am strongly anti-American, I think that this paragraph is a bit too much detail and would more appropriately fit in History section of the Republic of China – United States relations article. This would make the length of that section seem disproportionately large in comparison to other sections covering foreign policy. --HXL's Roundtable and Record 22:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Should this then be included in History of the Republic of China, Politics of the Republic of China or Kuomintang? It's clearly of historical significance. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:17, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I think that the issue here is a wider one - the Republic of China (1912-1949) is a completely different animal from Taiwan, even though it was the apparent "successor" to the original ROC. The hatnote doesn't even mention the History of the Republic of China article and as for the lead saying "The Republic of China (ROC), commonly known as Taiwan", is far from having always been the case. ► Philg88 ◄ ^talk 06:44, Saturday March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Interwiki

{{editsemiprotected}}

Please add an interwiki for pa:ਚੀਨ ਗਣਰਾਜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.155.97 (talk • contribs) 11:32, 12 March 2011

 Done Thanks for the proposed addition! --HXL's Roundtable and Record 16:21, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Shorten intro section

I suggest shortening the intro section. There's too much history and other details that should be covered in history section or other sections. Please shorten, or I'll do it later on. --Mistakefinder (talk) 09:52, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

That's a good idea. I shortened it about a year ago but it grew up a lot since then. I think most users just write whatever they have to write in the lead, and don't really try to expand the rest of the article. I'm going to remove a few things, if someone objects let's WP:BRD. Laurent (talk) 12:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

sovereign state

I'm sure this has been talked over and over, but unless there's another source other than a BBC News that would claim RoC's completely undisputed sovereignty, I'm going to reword the sentence in a way that explicitly states the on going disputes. Feel free to go to my talk page or simply reply to this heading. Thank you.Gw2005 (talk) 02:07, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

This has indeed been discussed before and the consensus seems to be for the piped link "[[sovereign state|state]]", at least it's the version that tends to last the longest. In my opinion, sovereignty is not a legal status, it's a fact. A state is either sovereign or is not and it doesn't matter whether other states claim their territory or not. In the case of the ROC, sovereignty is obvious - they have an independent government, military, etc. and it's been like that for over 50 years. Laurent (talk) 03:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

then the argument really depends on wither RoC still considers the areas they formally control as their sovereign rights. I'm not interested in reviving a whole unsolvable argument up again, but since the matter is still in discussion in many aspect(in fact, dispute), it only seems fit to mark an argument up for what it is. (I did not make any change to article as of now.) Gw2005 (talk) 03:58, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The only thing that is disputed is the political status of Taiwan, but the sovereign politic status of ROC has never been disputed because you know why? PRC kowtows to Sun Yat Sen! if ROC was a disputed dynasty in the vast Chinese historical lineage, how can PRC establish herself as a Chinese succesor state? PRC needs ROC's legitimacy as a sovereign status in order to justify her political agenda in Mainland China including Taiwan. Do not get Taiwan and ROC messed up, one is geopgrahic, and the other is a actually a legit historical and present undisputed sovereign state in the context of the Chinese Civil War.Phead128 (talk) 08:57, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Pictures

Is the gallery of pictures really needed at the bottom? The PRC article doesn't have a bunch of random pictures with no clear purpose. T-1000 (talk) 01:57, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not really random - it's showcasing certain aspects of the ROC that are not mentioned in the article, including the geography and culture of its controlled territories. Perhaps we should have actual sections about these topics but in the meantime a gallery is a good start. Laurent (talk) 15:31, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Original name

The original Chinese name of the island is Taiwan, and in the past (from the 16th century) has been called Formosa by the west. icetea8 (talk) 10:29, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Regarding your edits and the reasons I reverted them, this article is not about the island of Taiwan, this article is about the political entity known as the Republic of China. That's why there is an article called Taiwan. In 1912, Taiwan was a part of the Empire of Japan, and the Republic of China was located in Mainland China. It makes no sense whatsoever to say that "Taiwan" is the "original name" of the Republic of China. Since the ROC existed in Mainland China before 1949, and that the ROC only acquired Taiwan after 1945, it is illogical to equate "ROC" with "Taiwan" in the sense that they are synonyms, when they are clearly not. The Republic of China was formed in 1912 after the Qing Dynasty emperor abdicated and Sun Yat-sen declared the republic after the Xinhai Revolution. The island of Taiwan was formed via millions of years of volcanic activity over 500 million years ago, and today happens to be the main island (not the only island, the main island) controlled by the ROC government (the ROC also controls Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu and Taiping Island, which are by no means attached to the island of Taiwan). The two terms cannot be exchanged for one another. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 06:56, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Why two pages?

Why are there separate pages for Taiwan and the Republic of China? The same thing goes for China and the People's Republic of China. Ryan Vesey (talk) 13:46, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to have to introduce you to WP:NC-ZH#Political NPOV, which is not going to change any time soon. We have WP:RECENTISM, at least for China vs. PRC (I think even the most ignorant would realise that China, or Chinese civilisation, long preceded the PRC). In any case, the most recent edit by MistakeFinder is best left to the judgment of those that strictly abide to the policy under WP:NC-ZH. –HXL's Roundtable and Record 23:16, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Call me ignorant, but I don't see why the PRC can't be seen as a successor state to the ROC and the previous Chinese dynasties, just as the Russian Federation is a successor to the Russian Empire and previous Russian states. As for "not going to change soon", I wouldn't be so sure about that, as commonsense arguments recently upturned a similarly shallow and pedantic "consensus" against equating Mandarin with Standard Chinese. Looking at the previous move discussions for the China issue, the dominant faction that opposes equating the PRC with China appears to be not the Pan-Blue partisans but those people who want to deny legitimacy to the PRC and implicate it as an amoral communist state with no rights to be associated with Chinese civilization. Such bigoted and outmoded views are sure to be exposed and discounted in a future move discussion. Quigley (talk) 01:25, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

@Quigley: However, there is no rump state that claims the legacy of the Soviet Union, and so the Russian Federation enjoys full recognition as the sole Russian state, as per the succession of states theory. However, as long as there is a political entity that claims to represent China, the PRC cannot enjoy that same outcome, especially since a handful of tiny countries, such as the Holy See, do not recognise the PRC at all. Controlling the majority of land/population/whatever doesn't necessarily make a state "succeeded" - during the Second Sino-Japanese war, the Empire of Japan controlled the eastern coast of China, and thus 80% of China's economy, but this majority control did not mean that the ROC was succeeded by the Wang Jingwei government or whatever, and that Chiang Kai-shek's KMT regime in Chungking, in reality having absolute control about 20% land area of China proper at one time, was illegitimate (Meh, shitty example. I should be getting more nutrients.). And as for the actions of WP editors, this doesn't necessarily have to do with leftism or rightism; I'm quite sure there are those out there that are reluctant to call the ROC "Taiwan", as it gives the impression of Taiwanese independence, and that it is not "China". Not all those opposing the renames are rightists. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 01:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Merging PRC into "China" and merging China to "Chinese civilization" does not necessitate a merge of ROC into "Taiwan", which I do not support. Of course, the PRC = China idea gets its legitimacy not from simple control of land (all I have to say about your comparison between the PRC and the Japanese Empire is Facepalm) but from the overwhelming de jure international recognition of the PRC as China, and the de facto recognition of even the microstates that are bribed by the ROC. Not in this universe does NPOV means weighing the view of the Holy See the same as that of the rest of the world. Quigley (talk) 02:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Renaming PRC to China gives pro-independence editors the excuse to rename ROC to Taiwan, however. The lines would go along "why would you still call the ROC China, if you call the PRC China? There can only be one thing to call China!" There have been many requested moves in the past, despite that the ROC historically had nothing to do with Taiwan between 1912 and 1945. Plus, that would pretty much be a double standard - saying that the PRC has succeeded from the ROC, but that the ROC still exists as the ROC and hence shouldn't be renamed to Taiwan. Additionally, merging all the information in China and People's Republic of China is going to get you a really long article, how do you plan on solving that? As for the Japanese example, meh, haven't been getting enough oxygen into my brain this morning. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:46, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

According to the NC-TW consensus, the short form of Republic of China on Taiwan is not "China" but "Taiwan". In practice today, on Wikipedia and off it, the ROC-on-Taiwan is the ROC but not ever just "China". So we aren't calling two things "China" anyway, despite the technical factors of the Two Chinas and the 1912-1945 period that inhibits a merger of ROC and Taiwan. Not all of what is currently in "China" will stay when PRC is merged into it; the new "China" article will have as much ancient Chinese culture and history as the Republic of India article has ancient Indian culture and history. The rest is siphoned off to a new article, Chinese civilization, akin to Maya civilization. Quigley (talk) 03:08, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

@Ryan: Taiwan deals with the geographical island, its specifics (geography, climate, agriculture), and a touch on its inhabitants; ROC deals with the political entity, its government, and the specifics (economy, military, demographics, foreign relations, history). Compare Ireland (island) and Republic of Ireland, British Isles and Great Britain, Hawaii (island), Hawaiian islands and Hawaii, Americas (continent) and United States, Hong Kong Island and Hong Kong, Korean peninsula and South Korea, etc etc. China deals with Chinese civilisation in general, from ancient times to modern, whilst PRC specifically deals with the political state that existed from 1949 to now. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 01:48, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Mass changes to administrative divisions section

Energiya, you have some explaining to do here: you cannot simply remove the whole "second-level division" section without any directly related explanation in your edit summary or discussion here. There is less controversy with the second-level divisions, which the mainland Chinese media seem to recognise as well, so you have even less of a reason to blank it. I have to return to the task of building mainland township lists assigned to me now, so... —HXL's Roundtable and Record 14:54, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

The ROC government currently does not claim any political divisions to the "mainland area" (which is controlled by the PRC) since 2005. This site shows clear that the "mainland area" does not include in the territory chapter. 中華民國年鑑 九十五年版 Even the recent edition made by the Ma Ying-jeou government keeps this point [1].

On the other site 政府組織 also states that

目前我國有臺北市、新北市、臺中市、臺南市及高雄市等5個直轄市。縣(市)則有臺灣省宜蘭縣、桃園縣、新竹縣、苗栗縣、彰化縣、南投縣、雲林縣、嘉義縣、屏東縣、花蓮縣、臺東縣、澎湖縣、基隆市、新竹市、嘉義市等12縣3市，及福建省金門縣、連江縣等2縣，合計有14縣3市。鄉（鎮、市、區）合計有153鄉、41鎮、17市及157區。

, this show clearly the current political divisions only exists in "Taiwan area", and claims no divisions in "mainland area" at all.Energiya (talk) 14:56, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

OK the reason to delete "second-level division" is here 政府組織 this site states that the first-level divisions should be direct-controlled municipalities, counties, and provincial cities. (直轄市及縣（市）為我國第1層級的地方自治團體。) The second-level division is township, county-controlled city (鄉（鎮、市）為我國第2層級的地方自治團體。). This is different to the pages (it also shocks me at the first look). The local divisions laws of ROC does not classify the levels of divisions. So i deleted it.Energiya (talk) 15:05, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

and the author wrote "我國", implying a personal stance? What about Taiwan Province then? Our own page here on Wiki even states that it is divided into 縣 and 市. That Taiwan Province is not on the same level as the municipalities (直轄市) is ridiculous.

Even if the author's opinion were official, that is not a reason to delete the section. This article, before you came, clearly was describing reality, regardless of official considerations. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 15:18, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

This website is the ROC Government Information Office (行政院新聞局), which is the spokesman of the ROC government. so their speaking reflects the governmental view. Taiwan Province is streamlined now, the provincial government now reforms as the branches of our Executive Yuan. The name still exist, but practically the 縣 and 市 direct controlled by the Executive Yuan now. The streamline of the provinces breaks the border of the 1 and 2nd division levels. Our law doesn't state 縣 and 市 to be the 1st or the 2nd level. So i think it's better to keep the same view as the laws.

The subcection of "claimed territories" are no longer claim by our government as a territory, and should be rewrite as the historical issue [2]. This is what i did, i only move the claimed territory to the history issue. On the other side, the formation of the administrative division is totally controlled by the ROC government. How can you "regardless of official considerations"??Energiya (talk) 15:32, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

It seems the article has been locked due to edit war for quite some time. My poor Chinese reading skills do not extend to searching through long lawtexts, though I do remember hearing something in the Taiwanese news about the government ceasing to claim the territory of the mainland as their own some time ago. I would like it very much if some light could be shed on this. Thank you. - Sandertams (talk) 21:50, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I guess it's been talked about during the presidency of Chen Shui-bian, but during that of Ma Ying-jeou it's unlikely as he wants to keep the status quo. Laurent (talk) 02:18, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

This change is done in the Chen Shui-bian era, we can compare the 94th edition and the 95th edition of the ROC yearbook.

The 94th (2005) content shows

第二章　土地(Territory)

第一節　臺灣(Taiwan)

第二節　大陸地區(Mainland area)

and the 95th (2006)

第二章　土地(Territory)

第一節　臺灣(Taiwan)

第二節　外島地區(Outer Islands)

It's obviously the mainland china are removed in this year. Even at the time Ma Ying-jeou was in office. He did not restore that. The most recent 98th edition, this part becomes

第二章　土地(Territory)

第一節　臺澎地區(Taiwan and Penghu)

第二節　金馬暨外島地區(Kinmen, Matsu and the outer islands)

In my opinion he want to bring some ambiguity of the sovereignty to keep the status quo. So I prefer to use "stop claiming" because the ROC never renounce those territory also.Energiya (talk) 13:28, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Again

Instead of copying large amounts of document text into the discussion, explain the rationale behind these changes yourself. I will reject your changes in whole if you continue to remove the "First-level" and "Second-level" sections entirely. It is clear from the text "目前我國有..." that the ROC still considers Taiwan and Fujian provinces on the same administrative level as the municipalities (Taipei, New Taipei, Kaohsiung, Taichung, and Tainan). Also, the wording 'stops any claim' includes 'stops any claims of sovereignty'. This is, of course, against the Constitution, and reminiscent of the Pan-Green's deluded views as well. In any case, your changes are confusing, as I doubt the ROC would have only in 2005 stopped listing Zhejiang, etc. as part of their provincial divisions. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 21:31, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Stop using your political bias to "doubt" what the ROC government does. You didn't even read the discussion clearly. I did mentioned before the 98th edition ROC yearbook (published in 2010 in Ma Ying-jeou Era)

第二章　土地(Territory)

第一節　臺澎地區(Taiwan and Penghu)

第二節　金馬暨外島地區(Kinmen, Matsu and the outer islands)

There are still various of websites and books can support this division list, like the office of the president ROC which was largely rewrite when Ma Ying-jeou was in office.

Currently the ROC comprises two provinces (Taiwan and Fujian) and five special municipalities (Taipei, New Taipei, Taichung, Tainan, and Kaohsiung). At the provincial level, under Taiwan Province are 12 counties and three cities, and under these counties and cities are 213 rural townships, urban townships, county-administered cities, and city districts; and under Fujian Province are two counties governing 10 rural and urban townships.

Note that the New municipalities are mentioned (New Taipei, Taichung, Tainan), they upgraded at Dec 25, 2010. This can support this site are made by the Ma Ying-jeou government not the DPP government. So this division list not only about the Pan-Green's deluded views at all.

Then i did not write 'stops any claim' but "stops claim", if you are sensitive about this words from your political bias. I propose to revised it as "Since 2005, the ROC government stops claiming the administrative divisions in the mainland area, but still claiming the sovereignty of it by the constitution." is it OK?

And, "First-level" and "Second-level" did not remove them entirely. I only combined them in the "Current division" section, no data inside were deleted, please read it again you will see. The main reason to delete these two section names are mentioned above, and the "First-level" and "Second-level" in this article also contradict to the consensus in chinese wiki zh:中華民國行政區劃. Also, the office of the president ROC website only mentioned the "Provincial Level", "Special Municipality Level", and "County Level". It obvious that it treats Provinces and Special Municipalities differently. So I think the best presentation in this page is avoid these "Levels" and only show the structural hierarchy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Energiya (talk • contribs) 22:30, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Shorten your posts. 'Stops any claim' and 'stops claim' are not much different; they mean the same. So no, your sentence is still flawed. Better would be to avoid anything on claims and state "since [year Y], the ROC has stopped listing its former provinces from mainland China".

I am not saying provinces and special municipalities should be treated as equivalents. I am only suggesting that they are on the same layer of administration. The similar could be said for the PRC's equivalents. In any case, Taiwan Province, ROC excludes all 5 municipalities, and presenting the administrative types in terms of levels helps gives readers a clearer picture of the ROC administration. Finally, whatever contradictions we may have with zh:中華民國行政區劃, they still present levels (級) of administration.

OK, if you are sensitive about this words from your political bias. I accept your sentence and quote the sentence in the president office "Since 2005, the ROC has stopped listing its former provinces from mainland China. Currently the ROC comprises two provinces (Taiwan and Fujian) and five special municipalities (Taipei, New Taipei, Taichung, Tainan, and Kaohsiung).". Is it OK to you?

And i'd not insist to delete the "First-level" and "Second-level" titles at all. But using "First", "Second" will make some misunderstand. If you insist to keep the levels (級) of administration, does it better to rewrite as "Provincial Level", "Special Municipality Level", and "County Level"?Energiya (talk) 05:37, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I think it's zh:中華民國行政區劃 that is confusing us all. Now quit openly accusing me of political bias. It was you who removed material from County (China) (it was then titled County (China))...which is far more biased. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 12:44, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

zh:中華民國行政區劃 comfusing us all... then?? so how's your opinion for the levels and the division presentations?? Please concerning on this page OK? Whether to write the two "chinas" in a page or separate pages is debatable, and now somebody separate it. If you have some opinion on other page, you can discuss it on the talking page of that. But here you try to reject the data from the ROC government with a reason of TW independence?? Can you concerning on the discussion here? Energiya (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Whatever. Keep all of those accusations in your mind, or I will have to begin removing them. I still think we should have sections for the administrative levels. We have a "See also: Administrative divisions of the Republic of China" pointer that should prevent the section "Administrative regions" from growing too much. How Wikipedia classifies the provinces, municipalities, and counties of the ROC should not be a question of only this article. Lastly, go ahead and introduce that sentence under the 'Claimed territories' section. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 21:12, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Scouts of China

On the Scouts of China article, User:Kintetsubuffalo insists on putting a Tag about the article missing information about the era during Japanese rule. Yet this article is not about scouting in Taiwan, it is about a specific organization that was started by the ROC in Mainland China. Whatever the Japanese did on Taiwan before 1945 has nothing to do with this organization. Currently, the article is complete, with it's history starting in Mainland Taiwan then going to Taiwan. User:Kintetsubuffalo claims it is for background, yet Like I said, the background of this organization lies in Mainland China. There is a separate Scouting in Taiwan article, and the Japanese info should go there. T-1000 (talk) 17:00, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

ITYM, Mainland China, not Mainland Taiwan. I think the closest comparison to this situation would be the South Korea, and Korea Scout Association does mention Scouting in the Japanese Empire prior to 1945. I would say that Scouting in the Japanese empire (specifically what occured in Taiwan) definitely belongs in the following articles Scouting in the Republic of China, Scouts of Japan, and Taiwan under Japanese rule#Culture with the highest amount of information in Scouting in the Republic of China. A mention *should* be made in Scouts of China when information is available - Perhaps changing (leaving any existing links alone)

The Chinese Scout Association was reorganized in 1950 on the island of Taiwan, and resumed the membership of the International Scout Bureau as Boy Scouts of China (BSC) and later Scouts of China

to

The Chinese Scout Association was reorganized in 1950 on the island of Taiwan. [[Scouting in the Republic of China|Scouting on Taiwan]] had been under [[Scout Association of Japan#Early Years|Boy Scouts of Japan]] prior to World War II. The Chinese Scout Association resumed the membership of the International Scout Bureau as Boy Scouts of China (BSC) and later Scouts of China

Well, if you look through the edit histories, I did try linking to Scouting in Japan, but that was reverted by User:Kintetsubuffalo without any explanation. And While the Korea Scout Association was always in Korea, the Scouts of China was founded in Mainland China, then an enemy to Taiwan. T-1000 (talk) 19:16, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I have copy/pasted this dispute to Talk:Scouts of China. — chro • man • cer  20:06, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Template:Chinese_music

The Chinese template at [3] does not take the POV that PRC = China, as it includes the national anthem of the ROC, yet it doesn't include the music of Taiwan, which pushes the POV that ROC is not China. I looked and found similar templates like from here: [4], this old cuisine template has a PRC and ROC section. The Chinese music template should follow the old Chinese cuisine template. T-1000 (talk) 06:04, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Do it. I removed PRC/ROC divisions from the Chinese cuisine section because I strongly object to politicisation of culture. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 17:42, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Sovereign State, again

The result from past discussions seems to be that we don't say who Taiwan belongs to in order to avoid a POV. Yet this page was calling the ROC a sovereign state, which implies that Taiwan belongs to the ROC, and is therefore POV. It also contradicts other pages. On the Government in Exile page, the ROC is listed. If we acknowledge that there is a notable POV that ROC is a GIE, then we can't call ROC a sovereign state here. T-1000 (talk) 17:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

The ROC doesn't belong on the Governemnt of Exile page any more than the PRC doees. Both the ROC and the PRC are sovereign states; both have a degree of international recognition, and both control part (but not all) of China. Kiralexis (talk) 06:30, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Kiralexis:Yes, ROC (KMT) is an GIE on Taiwan just as much as PRC (CCP) is an GIE on Mainland. CCP was exiled by Chiang Kai Shek after the Nationalists purged KMT and China of it's Communist members. PRC (CCP) is just as much "exiled" from China (ROC) as ROC (KMT) is "exiled" from China (PRC). Both are equal sovereign states, but neither is sovereign of "All under Heaven" (ie. all China).Phead128 (talk) 12:06, 13 July 2011 (UTC)Phead128

Wikipedia is based on reliable sources. There are reliable source calling the ROC a government in exile on the GIE page. T-1000 (talk) 21:14, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Which reliable sources are you referring to? A Taiwan nationalist with a bone to pick (Tsai Ing-wen) shooting her mouth off, or oblique media references from during the Chiang Kai-shek administration? Kiralexis (talk) 00:14, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Sources don't have to be neutral, we have to be neutral. And we maintain NPOV by noting all major viewpoints. T-1000 (talk) 04:48, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Disagree with T-1000: In light of the historical and present context, ROC is a sovereign state. This is irrefutable, because ROC holds administration over territories not governed by the PRC. Conversely, PRC holds administered over territories not governed by ROC. Therefore, using your logic, mainland China belongs to PRC because PRC is sovereign state, therefore, we should strip PRC of sovereign state status. The real answer is to say both are sovereign states, but neither is the true sovereign of ALL of China until the Chinese civil war is resolved. I agree, the distinction must be made very pointedly that ROC's sovereignty is only limited to areas controlled, not claimed territories once formally administered that are presently controlled by PRCPhead128 (talk) 10:43, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Also, how can ROC (KMT) be a GIE if it's a civil war... To claim yourself as GIE is both a declaration of independence, then a declaration of war if ROC still claims Mainland China as her own sovereign territory. Therefore, it cannot be the case that ROC is GIE, because it's a civil war! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phead128 (talk • contribs) 12:11, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

It's not about what you think, that's original research. There are reliable sources calling the ROC a government in exile, for example Tsai Ing wen. T-1000 (talk) 02:17, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

It's a civil war. Do you know what the meaning of Civil War? How can ROC be a GIE if it's engaged in a Civil War?108.7.241.222 (talk) 06:30, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Do you understand the meaning of going by reliable sources instead of what you think? T-1000 (talk) 02:08, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

The "reliable" source is clearly wrong, since the ROC's own constitution states it's located on territories it holds legal legitimate claims to. Is your "reliable" source going to dispute ROC's own constitution? Wow. Your "reliable" source must either be a politician with dictatorial powers able to amend the ROC constitution, or must like divine spirit, capable of some magic.Phead128 (talk) 12:06, 13 July 2011 (UTC)Phead128

Please read WP:truth. Wikipedia only cares whether the sources are notable or not, not whether they are "right" or "wrong", since that is inherently POV. T-1000 (talk) 02:13, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I have another WP link: WP:GAME. While your link is just an essay, I will not accuse you of attempting to game the system, but please mind you that Wikipedia is more than just policies. You've got to add a bit of common sense. It should be clear to most people who know the Chinas well that they are both indeed independent, have governments, territory and sovereignty or at the very least function as if it is so. One is merely a lot bigger than the other. The work on this article should be to work this common sense into a form where it is reliably sourced and in accordance with core Wikipedia policies without unnecessary pettifogging. Indeed it is a very controversial subject we're dealing with here and we have to be careful, but this article is plagued with people bringing up the same policy yadda-yadda and it's really taking away time from peoples hands that could have been used much more constructively. - Sandertams (talk | contributions) 13:10, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Move of China to Chinese civilization, and China (disambiguation) to China

As discussed at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Political_NPOV we have proposed moving China to Chinese civilization and China (disambiguation) to China. See the move request at Talk:China#Requested_move if you wish to comment. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:42, 6 July 2011 (UTC)