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Requested move: Moonlight Sonata

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved Danger (talk) 00:35, 15 September 2011 (UTC) Danger (talk) 00:35, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven) → Moonlight Sonata – The proposed name is vastly common on Google Books than "Sonata No. 14", as you can see from this ngram. "Moonlight Sonata" gets 9,530 post-1990 hits, compared to 632 for "Sonata No. 14." Beethoven's sonatas currently all have article titles in this format, i.e. No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, etc. IMO, this is a most unfortunate convention since it makes all the names confusingly similar. It would be like using Zip codes instead of city names. After all, the point of names is to allow us to easily distinguish among similar items. Kauffner (talk) 07:45, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

To my understanding, one oppose, one support is no consensus. The article should be moved back, as the Appassionata, the work deserves better than a nick name in a language its creator would not have used, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I somehow missed that discussion. Fwiw now, I would have supported it, and accordingly I oppose the move back. The nick name, for better or worse, has become the way the work is referenced in all but the most rigidly formal of contexts. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:46, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You mean, announcing the work in a concert, mentioning it in a program, you would use Moonlight Sonata? Learning, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:44, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It would depend on the formality of the occasion, but that might be one of those rigidly formal contexts. Even then, they'd never leave it as "Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp minor, Op. 27/2". They'd add "Moonlight Sonata" in brackets or quotes, to acknowledge this is the name many people know it by. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 10:46, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Call it rigid, but I personally can't imagine a reputable (German) concert poster or program just saying "Ludwig van Beethoven: Mondscheinsonate". Perhaps this is different, speaking English? I agree that some would add the nick name in brackets in print, but this is an online wiki, the stuff in brackets can be the redirect. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Gerda, as we've discussed in other contexts, the way things are done in the German-speaking world is sometimes different from the way things are done in the English-speaking world. I think this is one of those things. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 11:46, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, that's why I was ASKING. But now let me understand: may it be different, or is it different? (But this is only for understanding. I would still like all Beethoven piano sonatas treated the same way. - And the "first name" of Mahler's 2nd is not Resurrection, nor Dvořák's 9th "New World", right?) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:58, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@JackofOz: Would the same treatment (nickname in parentheses) be given to the Waldstein, Appassionata, Les Adieux or Hammerklavier? If so, these and the Moonlight should either all be moved to their nicknames, or all stay at "Piano Sonata No. X" titles. Double sharp (talk) 13:27, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You count the nominator, so the math for the RM is 2-1. Isn't "Piano Sonata" also in a language Beethoven wouldn't understand? The title "Piano Sonata No. 14" is a short form as well. The formal name is absurdly long. Kauffner (talk) 00:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I was not clear, it's not 2:1 what I don't like, it's a participation of just 3 people. I don't see why Moonlight Sonata (which seems not even to translate the German nickname Mondscheinsonate well, sounds more like Mondlicht), which was a working redirect, should take the place of the official name in one case out of 32. I would treat them all the same. If that should be shortened for all 32 is a different discussion. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:44, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Piano Sonata No. 1 (Beethoven) - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 11:00, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Moonlight Sonata → Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven) – Reopening the discussion from above (#Requested move: Moonlight Sonata). My rationale is in the linked section. Double sharp (talk) 08:07, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. I get 9,910 post-1990 English-language Google Book results for Beethoven "Moonlight Sonata", 342 for Beethoven "Piano Sonata No. 14". If you look at the latter results, very few are actually using "Piano Sonata No. 14" as a title. Instead, it is usually part of a longer title, such as "Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp Minor ('Moonlight')".[1] No RS gives the title of this piece as, Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven). "The title should refer to the work in whatever way is most common in other publications," according to WP:Naming conventions (music). The cardinal-number-with-composer-in-parenthesis format should be used only when, "this method is insufficient for describing one piece individually." The most important function of a title is to tell readers how the subject is commonly referred to in the real world. The proposed non-descriptive, made-up title only misleads. Kauffner (talk) 10:01, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. My rationale is also in the above discussion. A redirect of the nickname (in English) will still be there and be found and mentioned in the lead. The sonata should have a decent article name consistent with the other 31 by Beethoven, imo. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:34, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have to point out here - again - that we are not "voting". This discussion consists of WP:!VOTEs. Milkunderwood (talk) 19:35, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move back as nom. Redirect must be kept. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:48, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, for the same reasons I supported the move here above: "Moonlight Sonata" is preferred by performers, scholars, and the general public. The article will still inform readers that it was Beethoven's 14th piano sonata. @Double sharp - I would also in fact support most of those "nickname" moves for Beethoven's sonatas (you left out the "Pathetique Sonata", by the way). Perhaps that's a good next step.... Dohn joe (talk) 23:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:COMMONNAME is a core principle of Wikipedia and the proposed name is therefore inconsistent with our general naming practices. The system you describe is the equivalent of using Zip codes or coordinates instead of city names. The title should tell the reader what the subject is called in the real world. Kauffner (talk) 14:21, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Even if the Moonlight sonata name may be better known, it was a name never given to this piece by the master himself but was given it later in circumstances not related to the sonata's original meaning as a sonata for mourning. A redirect would suffice. Paved with good intentions (talk) 13:24, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Gerda Arendt etc. and arguments for consistency. --Kleinzach 14:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as well. This should not have been moved in the first place, given the clear naming convention we have adopted. Eusebeus (talk) 14:17, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support per Gerda Arendt, Double sharp's OP, Deskford, Paved with good intentions, Kleinzach, Eusebeus, et al:
    • It seems to me that WP needs to remain consistent within a class of compositions such as Beethoven's piano sonatas. To the best of my knowledge the ordinal numbering of this class is uncontroversial and uniformly accepted. In other classes, such as Beethoven's piano trios, attempts at ordinal numbering come to grief, and need to be handled in a different way. When there is not consistent ordinal numbering within a class of compositions, usually the opus or other catalog number is to be preferred. Or, as Gerda has pointed out, sometimes a name such as St Matthew Passion can work best.
    • "Moonlight" or "Mondschein" was never so named by Beethoven.
    • A number of Beethoven's other piano sonatas have nicknames, some more widely known and used than others. The whole issue of nicknames can be tricky because many pieces of music have nicknames attached that are not at all widely known or used.
    • I would argue that the large number of Google hits for "Moonlight" represents general popular recognition not of the piano sonata as a complete piano sonata, but merely of the opening phrases, or at most the first movement, as a meme in popular culture.
    • From the point of view of recorded music, a CD will frequently have MOONLIGHT emblazoned across the front, and in smaller caps, Appassionata, Pathetique, Waldstein, etc, as an acknowledgement of this meme, and on the theory that people will associate any nicknamed piece of music as being more popular and perhaps more "important". But in the actual listing it will give a proper description of the sonata number, opus number, and key, with the nickname following in quotes. Wikipedia is not selling CDs, and has no reason dumb down its article titles like Amazon does.
    • It really doesn't matter whether readers will type "moonlight" into the searchbox, since they are automatically redirected to the article they are looking for. Some readers might even learn to identify the sonata appropriately.
    • I would also point out that the decision made on the basis of our present pros and cons is theoretically supposed to be based on the strength of our arguments, or WP:!VOTEs rather than the number of commenters "voting" one way or the other. And I'm having a very hard time understanding why User:Danger cut the initial discussion off so short in September - if the number of comments was so sparse, the issue should have been advertised more widely before making a determination. (Unless Danger was relying on his or her own personal position on the issue.)
Milkunderwood (talk) 19:24, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I think that Gerda has made a very important distinction, above, between a nickname and a "common name", that has gone unappreciated. This is not a question of "Wiki jargon" - "Moonlight" is unquestionably a nickname. I believe Kauffner has here relied too heavily on WP:COMMONNAME, which is less applicable in this instance, and may also be stretching Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music) too far. I also understand and sympathize with Jack's consistent and principled inclination in favor of the KISS principle. Nonetheless, as long as appropriate redirects are in place, I can't help thinking that as an encyclopedia, a certain decorum and dignity, for lack of better terms, as well as a basic consistency, ought to be preserved in article titles if we are to be taken seriously. The encyclopedia has an educational function, and redirecting to a more appropriate article title helps to serve that function. Milkunderwood (talk) 22:22, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Minute Waltz is a toughie. 1) Most of Chopin's waltzes have universally recognized opus numbers (in this case Op. 64, No. 1); but several do not. In any event they do not have ordinal numbers. 2) The name "Minute Waltz" was assigned by his publisher, not by Chopin, who in fact titled the piece himself as Valse du petit chien ("The Little Dog Waltz"). 3) The name "Minute" is in a sense mistranslated - or at least misconstrued - in English, being pronounced "minnit" instead of the intended "my-nyoot" sense of the word. 4) On the other hand, if the waltz was first published with the title "Minute" - and I have no idea whether it was or not - then that circumstance would lend a great deal of validity to its popular name. --So taking all of these factors into consideration, if it were me running this show, I would move the page to its opus number as the article title, and redirect from "Minute Waltz". Milkunderwood (talk) 04:07, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Gerda et al. Historically, we know that Beethoven didn't make this name up; as the article says it was the work of Rellstab, a Romantically-oriented critic. In a scholarly context like WP we should use a nickname as an article title only if it's very firmly ensconced as the way people refer to the piece and this is not so for Beethoven's C sharp minor piano sonata. Opus33 (talk) 03:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) (@Kauffner): No, it would be simply "Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven)", just as the others are done. Milkunderwood (talk) 06:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Names exist to allow us to distinguish among similar items. If a group of names are in fact confusingly similar, well, the name is the name. But that's not what is going on here. The proposed name has been created to fit a template that imposes an artificial similarity. Kauffner (talk) 07:23, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what you mean by "artificial similarity". Please take a look at this list: Requested move: Piano Sonata No. 1 (Beethoven) → Piano Sonata No. 1 in F minor, Op. 2. What sticks out like a sore thumb? Is it not Moonlight Sonata? Is there not a coherent - not "artificial" - similarity to the format of all the other sonatas?
Now look at all of the "Oppose" discussion in the section immediately preceding it, requesting similar moves for all of the Beethoven piano sonatas. That initial move proposal went down in flames; and then your proposal for moving just Sonata No. 1 went down in flames.
In the meantime you proposed a move for Sonata No. 14, and succeeded in getting it approved with no notice or discussion brought to the attention of anyone interested in classical music - apparently Gerda Arent just happened to be watching this page, and saw what was going on, and spoke up. Then User:Danger precipitously closed the discussion before anyone else could post their opposition.
So what's going on now? Look at all the opposition you're running into here. We are just trying to put Sonata No. 14 back the way it originally was. Is this a game? Milkunderwood (talk) 09:39, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Some people agree me, others disagree, and what do I care? I can still participant in the RM. What I mean by "artifical" is that normally you take a the title of a piece from the liner notes. You don't worry about whether that's coherent, decent, consistent, or whatever. In this case, the liner notes say, 'Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp Minor, Op. 27 No. 2 – "Moonlight"'[2][3] So the proposed form takes titles that do not naturally match and makes them match. You admit below that the title has an "educational" function. What's educational about a made-up title that only Wiki uses? Kauffner (talk) 20:45, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, so you're going from CDs. As it happens, the only reason I'm here at Wikipedia at all is that I am trying to catalog a very large collection of CDs and LPs. (And I'm finding that not only are liner notes are remarkably inconsistent from one to the next, but not infrequently simply wrong in their particulars.)
No, I believe you are wrong that Wikipedia "takes the title of a piece from the liner notes." Full title descriptions with ordinal numbering, key, opus number, and nickname if any, are not Wikipedia's standard for article titles, and if you look around at any large number of articles on individual pieces of classical music I doubt if you'll find any at all following that format. (If you do find any, it would help to bring it to someone's attention so it can be corrected.) I'm not sure the recommended title format is absolutely fixed, but has been the subject of some discussion among the "WikiProject Classical music".
The standard format appears to be something like Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven), with for instance a hatnote saying "Beethoven's Fifth" redirects here. The parenthetical (Beethoven) is a disambiguation to distinguish it from other composers' Symphony No. 5. "Symphony No. 5" is not a "made-up title". The full description, "The Symphony No. 5 in C minor, Op. 67" is given in the lede, not in the title. Similarly, the lede for the sonata under discussion here says "The Piano Sonata No. 14 in C♯ minor "Quasi una fantasia", Op. 27, No. 2, by Ludwig van Beethoven, popularly known as the Moonlight Sonata (Mondscheinsonate in German)..."
All that full description is just where it belongs, in the lede, not the article title. You have proposed a move, on the basis of a title and description found on a CD, from Piano Sonata No. 1 (Beethoven) to Piano Sonata No. 1 in F Minor, Op. 2 No. 1, which proposal did come to the attention of some project members, with "The result of the move request was: Not moved Alpha_Quadrant (talk) 05:01, 29 November 2011 (UTC)."
"Piano Sonata No. 14" is no more a "made-up title" than any other such. Adding "(Beethoven)" in parentheses is again simply for disambiguation.
As for Wikipedia's "educational" function, my own feeling is that a title "Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven)" alerts interested readers that Beethoven wrote a number of such sonatas, and may serve to encourage them to look further - possibly to expand their musical horizon. It may not, granted; but it just might. To the contrary, finding an article titled "Moonlight Sonata" may simply confirm an assumed but false uniqueness, and give the reader no incentive to look around any further. All this is just my own supposition, of course, and obviously some here dismiss the idea. Milkunderwood (talk) 22:26, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Here is Wikipedia's standard for article titles: "The title should refer to the work in whatever way is most common in other publications." So says WP:NCM. The format you are talking about should be used only, "If this method is insufficient for describing one piece individually." Kauffner (talk) 22:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to hazard a guess that "other publications" means authoritative publications, such as New Grove, and not liner notes to CDs or Amazon descriptions - or colloquial memes. But I could be wrong about that. Milkunderwood (talk) 23:07, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
New Grove calls this subject "Moonlight" Sonata (op.27 no.2) on first reference, shortened to "Moonlight" Sonata on following reference. So perhaps the addition of quotation marks may resolved this issue. Kauffner (talk) 23:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note that's in the article text. They do the same thing for 'Appassionata', 'Hammerklavier', 'Tempest', and for Waldstein "so-called Waldstein". Note that in the formal works list at the end of the article, they list it as: op 27/2 | Sonata no.14, ‘quasi una fantasia’ (‘Moonlight’), c# | 1801 | etc. Antandrus (talk) 01:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very Emphatic Don't Care: This discussion has come up numerous times - last time I took part was at Death and the Maiden Quartet. But we are all missing the essential point: this is an online dictionary. If the reader looks for "Moonlight sonata" or "Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven)" he gets to the same place. The only difference is the words that he will see at the top of the screen - something that most readers don't even notice. So the issue is not one of consistency but of preference. The consistent thing to do is to be sure that both names lead to the same article. Which is the redirect and which is the actual article name is a matter of preference. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:43, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In response to "something that most readers don't even notice" I think they most likely will, and need to repeat this:
  • I can't help thinking that as an encyclopedia, a certain decorum and dignity, for lack of better terms, as well as a basic consistency, ought to be preserved in article titles if we are to be taken seriously. The encyclopedia has an educational function, and redirecting to a more appropriate article title helps to serve that function.
Milkunderwood (talk) 07:00, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am all in favor of decorum and dignity when it serves a purpose - that is, when it serves to make the encyclopedia more understandable and usable. I find decorum for decorum's sake deplorable. As in "Dulce et decorum est pro patria more." --Ravpapa (talk) 08:25, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's just my personal opinion, which I'm pretty confident isn't widely shared. Anyway, it isn't the basis of my argument - more of an aside. Obviously, as you say, redirects are crucial to making the encyclopedia work, and the more the better. Frustrations with searchbox searches was what got me started here in the first place. And if we have any disagreement at all, I suspect it's just semantics - note my "for lack of better terms". Milkunderwood (talk) 10:13, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Abstain While Mondschein wasn't Beethoven's idea, it has been extraordinarily successful. I think the words "Moonlight sonata" tap the aural archives of many people who would draw a complete blank at the mention of Beethoven's "Sonata no. 14". Fortunately we have redirects... MistyMorn (talk) 19:48, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Before this past September all of the Beethoven piano sonatas were listed by their ordinal numbers as article titles. So far three attempts have recently been made to move these to different titles, two of which attracted extensive !Votes which were overwhelmingly Opposed. The proposal for moving Sonata No. 14 to "Moonlight" was the only one that succeeded, and that was only because the proposal attracted no attention from the community and was precipitously closed with only the requester and one Supporting !Vote, with only Gerda Arent, who just happened to notice the request, Opposing. This was not a legitimate "discussion", and the move is invalid.
What is happening right now is not a "Proposal to move", although that is the form being used, but rather an attempt to reopen the original proposal made in September and quickly closed in utter disregard of all Wikipedia procedures for soliciting comments from interested persons.
Yes, the name "Moonlight Sonata" is well-known; and probably many people with no interest in Beethoven or any other classical music may be familiar with its opening bars, but no more than that, just as they may be familiar with the opening bars of Beethoven's 5th Symphony. Can this alone justify changing the article title? What about all the other nicknamed sonatas? Shall we make a hodge-podge of article titles, with no consistency from one to the next? Just asking. (I don't doubt someone is wanting to bring up "the hobgoblin of little minds", so I'll just put it here myself.) Milkunderwood (talk) 20:47, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you're confused by Piano Sonata No. 1, Piano Sonata No. 2, Piano Sonata No. 3 ... Piano Sonata No. 32, perhaps you would recommend that not only Beethoven's sonatas but every other piece of classical music mentioned here at Wikipedia be assigned a nickname? Or just a full description consisting of ordinal number, key, opus number, title if any assigned by the composer, nickname if any attached by someone else later, etc, in the WP article title? I have to wonder whether anyone who finds Piano Sonata No. 14 "confusingly similar" to Piano Sonata No. [any different number] may have a basic problem with innumeracy. Milkunderwood (talk) 22:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We could number all the articles from 1 to 3.8 million. Who would be confused? Kauffner (talk) 23:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Naturally, everybody would be confused. However, that is completely irrelevant to this discussion as the Beethoven piano sonatas have a commonly accepted system of ordinal numbering and are related to each other in a series, but Wikipedia articles do not have any commonly accepted ordinal numbering system and are not related to each other in any series. I also find it difficult to believe that "Piano Sonata No. 14" is "confusingly similar" to "Piano Sonata No. [any other number]". Double sharp (talk) 02:33, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
David, I think, from the context of your remarks, that you meant to say Support rather than Oppose. This aim of this present discussion is to move the article title back to the way it was originally. There appears to be a very small group - 3 or perhaps 4 individuals - who are determined to rename all of the Beethoven piano sonatas. They've been shot down twice now, but somehow in an illegally peremptory decision made without allowing for comment, they did succeed in screwing up Piano Sonata No. 14. Links are provided above in this discussion to their failures. I had not been aware of the new ones you've just now pointed to. There's got to be a way to put a stop to this nonsense - in my opinion it's starting to border on vandalism. Milkunderwood (talk) 01:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, yes, I was confused by all the moves and counter-moves.  :-) Can we unify these discussions please?DavidRF (talk) 01:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we need to move this discussion, the No. 8 discussion, and any others to Talk:Beethoven's piano sonatas, where the issue can be considered at the proper "big picture" level, rather than piecemeal. It should be either (a) OK to rename all the sonatas that have common names to their common names, or (b) not OK to rename any of them. But saying Yes to one but No to another seems very inconsistent. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 01:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Jack, I absolutely agree. Milkunderwood (talk) 01:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Since we are discussing an established convention that applies to many more articles than just the piano sonatas of one composer, I would suggest we ought to be discussing this at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (music). --Deskford (talk) 02:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The established convention allows for this title. WP:Naming conventions (music) says: "Do not include nicknames except when the work is almost exclusively known by its nickname." Isn't that the case here? Dohn joe (talk) 02:04, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, as discussed above the sonata is normally referred to in concert programmes, CD liners, reviews and so on by some combination of the ordinal number, key and opus number, usually followed by "Moonlight Sonata" in quotes or brackets (or both). --Deskford (talk) 02:13, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose; this request flies in the face of WP:COMMONNAME. This sonata is overwhelmingly known in English as the Moonlight Sonata. More than any other of Beethoven's sonatas, this one is known by its popular name. Powers T 01:38, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


  • In the meantime, while we're deciding where to move the discussion, is there an admin anywhere around who can close down all these individual rename requests that keep popping up whack-a-mole? This is exactly what happened here - an unfamiliar admin granted their move proposal without getting comment. It's become a game of peek-a-boo. Milkunderwood (talk) 02:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
DavidRF has opened a new discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music|Beethoven Sonatas: Wack-a-mole with page-move proposals. Milkunderwood (talk) 02:31, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, please don't discuss it there.  :-) I was just making a public call on the project page to unify the discussions. See the section above it, User:Deskford of JackOfOz may have some suggestions.DavidRF (talk) 02:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I typed the link wrong. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music#Beethoven Sonatas: Wack-a-mole with page-move proposals. Milkunderwood (talk) 02:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Actually on reflection I think we ought to continue the discussion where it started, i.e. here, linking back to here from the other places. See WP:MULTI: "Avoid posting the same thread in multiple forums". --Deskford (talk) 03:02, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How can it possibly "confuse the reader" if a redirect automatically takes them to the wanted page? This is a long discussion, but it might help to read through it. No one is suggesting doing without redirects - just the contrary. Milkunderwood (talk) 02:50, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Redirects are not a replacement for properly titling an article. That's why we don't rely on redirects to get people from Barack Obama to Barack Hussein Obama II, nor to get readers from IBM to International Business Machines Corporation. Powers T 03:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Barack Obama is not a nickname, it follows our normal naming style. Moreover IBM is officially used by the company. If you look at the company website here you won't find 'International Business Machines Corporation' at all. --Kleinzach 03:56, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well if you don't like those examples, try any of the ones listed at WP:COMMONNAME. Most of all, our titles should be recognizable to readers. Only "Moonlight Sonata" satisfies that goal for this sonata. Powers T 15:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(The following comment is copied from below because it was obviously not taken in account here) Moonlight Sonata is a common name, agreed. But there are also Wiki-rules about being unbiased. Moonlight Sonata is a bad translation of "Mondscheinsonate", a romantic era perception of music of the Classical era. We are in the 21st century now and could start to look at the piece without that bias. The name is misleading. There is no moonlight in movement 3 nor in movement 2, for me not even in movement 1. The term is common. So was "negro". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:48, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I don't believe any established and recognised encyclopaedia is based on nicknames. (There are, of course, specialist dictionaries of nicknames.) In Wikipedia, JFK is a redirect to John F. Kennedy even though JFK gets considerably more more Google hits than the fuller name. Why does WP use John F. Kennedy? (1) John F. Kennedy was his correct name, (2) It follows the normal form for people's names in WP, (3) giving the surname enables us to understand relationships, (4) those reading the WP article know the correct name to use in other circumstances. Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven) is essentially the same case as John F. Kennedy, except we have piano sonatas rather than people. --Kleinzach 03:50, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • So unless we create made-up names that no one else uses, we don't cut it as a real encyclopedia? Kauffner (talk) 04:11, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • "No one else uses" Firstly, in your first comment here, you stated that "very few are actually using 'Piano Sonata No. 14' as a title", which implies that there are a few who do. Secondly, these names are not made up, but simply stem from the commonly accepted numbering system for Beethoven's piano sonatas. This numbering system has been used for a long time. If you look at the second page of [4] (an edition from around 1875, edited by Hans von Bülow), you can see the same numbering system that is used today from 1-32. (He also includes 33 and 34 for two posthumous sonatinas.) Also, there are no nicknames given on that page. Neither is "Waldstein" shown on page 3 (the beginning of the sonata). Double sharp (talk) 05:12, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Support per Gerda Arendt. Not only is there an issue of consistency, but what about numerous other unoriginal nicknames, many of them ephemeral? Does anyone call Mozart's Piano Concerto K. 467 the "Elvira Madigan Concerto" anymore? Granted, the name "Moonlight" is more well-known, but if you file the article under this name, you open up a can of bad smelling worms to move ton of articles to many peculiar and ephemeral names. -- kosboot (talk) 03:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


If this isn't outright vandalism it comes awfully close. Milkunderwood (talk) 05:38, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed titles from the second move discussion Milkunderwood linked to above don't even tell the reader who the composer was, which is IMO the most important piece of information readers would want to know. The opus number and key are obviously secondary. Double sharp (talk) 05:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You are missing the main point of a title. It's supposed to tell the reader either the common or formal name of the subject, what it is called in the real world. That's not the same as a description or a headline. It should not be expected highlight particular information about the subject. Kauffner (talk) 06:22, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"(Beethoven)" is part of the disambiguation, in any case, because so many other composers have written piano sonatas. For your system with the opus number, there is simply no accepted format for those overly long titles (do we put the opus number first, or the key, for example?) like there is for the ordinal-numbering system ([work genre] No. [#]), with the composer name added for disambiguation in Wikipedia. Finally, in the real world, if you listen to the András Schiff's lecture on Piano Sonata No. 26 (Beethoven) (one of those with a nickname) that is linked from the article, the title is announced at the beginning (IIRC) in the format "Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. [#] in [key], Op. [#], [nickname]." I think this is how the title is announced for all the Beethoven piano sonatas in the lectures, but haven't checked. The ordinal number is the first piece of information given, with the key, opus number and nickname all serving to give additional information later to help people identify the piece. We can put the additional information in the lead and add redirects if necessary, but we don't need too much information in the title. Double sharp (talk) 11:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The opus numbering scheme wasn't my proposal, you know. The names I proposed were from CD liner notes, and in the same format Schiff uses. I see that as a way of dealing with the sonatas without common names, which is to say most of them. But that's whole another proposal and has nothing to do with this RM. This title has been stable for some months now and conforms to both WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NCM, unlike the proposed form. Kauffner (talk) 17:38, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • CD liner notes are certainly not authoritative (and frequently differ from one recording to another); they are never a legitimate basis for titling a Wikipedia article, but may be used to point out discrepancies, such as in footnotes.
  • However, your statement "This title has been stable for some months now" is disingenuous at best. The original title, Sonata No. 14, was stable for many years. "Some months" means that you finally succeeded in getting this one sonata retitled, out of several other failures for retitling, on September 15, 2011, and the first post-move objection was posted on October 4, 2011, with many further objections from classical music project members continuing still to this day. In that sense the "Moonlight Sonata" title was "stable" for about three weeks - and that was simply because no one had noticed the problem. Milkunderwood (talk) 18:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How exactly was there consensus to move this article to "Moonlight Sonata" back in September anyway? I'm surprised Danger (an admin) moved the article, as 2 supports, 1 oppose is no consensus. Double sharp (talk) 06:06, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, she waited a week, but no one ever knew about it - no notice was given. It was an illegal closure. What we're really wanting to do here is not a new move, but simply reversing the illegal one. Milkunderwood (talk) 06:39, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Kauffner posted on Danger's talk page a link to this discussion with the section heading "Kvetching about old RM" (probably referring to the previous two comments). On Wiktionary, "kvetch" (as a verb) is defined as "To whine or complain, often needlessly". Double sharp (talk) 11:33, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you permit me to explain, the "vote count" if you will, was 2-1; the proposal counts. Additionally, the arguments for moving were, as I judged, based soundly on the policy WP:COMMONNAME while the opposing argument was merely to maintain consistency across Wikipedia articles which is not policy. The move also did not contradict the naming conventions for classical music.
Additionally, requested moves are centrally listed and stay open a week. There is no requirement to inform anyone directly: that's what the talk page is for. There was nothing that I can see about this move that was "illegal". In the future, I'd appreciate you bringing concerns about my admin actions directly to me rather than discussing them elsewhere. Danger High voltage! 16:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But that's just a Google images page! Can you explain the significance? Thanks. --Kleinzach 08:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Finding is not a problem at all, the search function shows the redirects in the same way as the others, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:45, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • That isn't really true. But it wouldn't matter even if it was. The title is not primarily for the search engine. A recognizable title gives humans beings a cue that this is the right place (or the wrong place, if they are looking for something else.) Kauffner (talk) 09:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is not really true? - But to your other point: the first line of the lead will - even after a move - show Moonlight Sonata in bold letters. The reader who is unable to recognize that can probably not be helped by the article. - Repeating: The term is common. So was "negro". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Given that we have redirects, coupled with a lede which clearly explains the origin and timing of the "Moonlight" label, I fail to get excited about the issue. Nor am I convinced by the "dangerous precedent" argument, given that the absence of unique naming procedures both across WP and within the Classical Music project. I'm more concerned that the lede appears overburdened with notes and references (incidentally, making it difficult to edit): perhaps some of the current material would be better positioned in the main article? MistyMorn (talk) 12:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment MistyMorn, in response to your mention of the article lede, Kauffner soon after went in and rewrote the lede to his own satisfaction, which I have now reverted - see the article History tab. Milkunderwood (talk) 14:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Copied from above, in response to arguments based on CD covers et al:
    • I would argue that the large number of Google hits for "Moonlight" represents general popular recognition not of the piano sonata as a complete piano sonata, but merely of the opening phrases, or at most the first movement, as a meme in popular culture.
    • From the point of view of recorded music, a CD will frequently have MOONLIGHT emblazoned across the front, and in smaller caps, Appassionata, Pathetique, Waldstein, etc, as an acknowledgement of this meme, and on the theory that people will associate any nicknamed piece of music as being more popular and perhaps more "important". But in the actual listing it will give a proper description of the sonata number, opus number, and key, with the nickname following in quotes. Wikipedia is not selling CDs, and has no reason dumb down its article titles like Amazon does.
Milkunderwood (talk) 14:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • IMO, the acid test is the overall quality of the article. For instance, a B-class article wouldn't be dumbing down, irrespective of specific choice of title. The reader would have the necessary information to put that famous nickname in to appropriate context. Actually, the essential information is already there in the lede/lead. More generally, I would hesitate to shun nicknames, however annoying. If they call to mind even just a few opening bars of music, that phrase may mean quite a lot to people unfamiliar with Beethoven. (A bit like a friend of mine who thought he just liked the 1812, but now wants me to pick him up a CD of Swan Lake, because it's even more exciting.) Just my 2 sharps, MistyMorn (talk) 16:22, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of course the overall quality of the entire article is what counts the most. But I'm afraid I am not following your thinking on B-class, or any other such - would this imply that lower-class articles may be titled however, and then if their classification is upgraded, the title may need to be "moved"? That doesn't make sense to me. Milkunderwood (talk) 16:40, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's doubtless because I haven't got any very detailed thinking to follow here. Except perhaps WP:COMMONNAME... MistyMorn (talk) 17:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment -- I closed the discussion (agnostically) on the Sonata No. 8 talk page in order to centralize discussion here, since there was duplication. Let's get consensus in one place. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 16:50, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clarification Lest it be overlooked, I'm going to repost a portion of my response to Milkunderwood and Double sharp's accusation that the previous move was closed invalidly.
If you permit me to explain, the "vote count" if you will, was 2-1; the proposal counts. Additionally, the arguments for moving were, as I judged, based soundly on the policy WP:COMMONNAME while the opposing argument was merely to maintain consistency across Wikipedia articles which is not policy. The move also did not contradict the naming conventions for classical music.
Additionally, requested moves are centrally listed and stay open a week. There is no requirement to inform anyone directly: that's what the talk page is for. There was nothing that I can see about this move that was "illegal". Danger High voltage! 17:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If we are reposting here, 2 supports, 1 oppose is no consensus. "There is no requirement to inform anyone directly: that's what the talk page is for." --Except that no one ever saw it. Next time you get a 2-to-1 discussion you might want to forget about the "no requirement" and try to solicit a few more comments. Milkunderwood (talk) 19:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment and request to start over. I'd ask, as some have suggested, that we close this discussion and start over. I'm sorry if I muddied things up. As I wrote on Talk:Piano Sonata No. 8 (Beethoven)#Requested move, people were using the fact that "Moonlight Sonata" was the only one of Beethoven's sonatas to be titled by its nickname on WP as a reason to change that title. One editor in particular was asking rhetorically if supporting "Moonlight" meant that people would support changing other ones. So I thought I'd find out the level of that support, apparently not in the right manner. At this point, I think a new, centralized discussion would be the best way forward. I'm also posting this on User:Antandrus's page. Thanks. Dohn joe (talk) 18:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No - there was already a proposal made at Moonlight talk to move the discussion, but it was determined better to leave it where it was. The best place for the discussion to have taken place would have been at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music#Beethoven Sonatas: Wack-a-mole with page-move proposals, but this attempt was aborted. Milkunderwood (talk) 19:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly support This is an excellent example of the failures of WP:COMMONNAME. No academic music encyclopedia would organize this piece under the name "Moonlight Sonata". It is the populist and kitschy, as opposed to encyclopedic and academic, title. Piano Sonata 14, Piano Sonata 14, op 27 no 2, Piano Sonata 14 (Moonlight), or any combination of these would be better titles than "Moonlight Sonata". ThemFromSpace 19:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely what I was trying to say earlier, but much better and more clearly expressed here - thank you. Milkunderwood (talk) 19:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have to disagree. Wikipedia is not written for academics nor is it an academic music encyclopedia but an encyclopedia written for the general population who would likely not have the same musical backgound as a person reading an academic music encyclopedia. So I see that as a false compareson.--70.24.207.225 (talk) 20:07, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The lede

currently:

The Piano Sonata No. 14 in C♯ minor "Quasi una fantasia", Op. 27, No. 2, by Ludwig van Beethoven, popularly known as the Moonlight Sonata (Mondscheinsonate in German), was completed in 1801.[1] The sonata was dedicated in 1802 to his pupil, the then 20-year-old[2] Countess Julie Guicciardi,[3] with whom Beethoven was, or had briefly been, in love,[4] and who was also first suspected to have been the composer's Immortal Beloved.

It is one of Beethoven's most popular piano sonatas, as well as one of his most famous compositions for the piano. The name "Moonlight" Sonata was coined in 1832 (five years after Beethoven's death) by the music critic Ludwig Rellstab, who likened the effect of the first movement to that of real moonlight shining upon Lake Lucerne.[1][5]

Beethoven included the phrase "Quasi una fantasia" (Italian: Almost a fantasy)[6] in the title partly because the sonata does not follow the traditional movement arrangement of fast-slow-[fast]-fast. Instead, the Moonlight sonata possesses an end-weighted trajectory; with the rapid music held off until the third movement. To be sure, the deviation from traditional sonata form is intentional. In his analysis of the Moonlight sonata, German critic Paul Bekker states that “The opening sonata-allegro movement gave the work a definite character from the beginning... which succeeding movements could supplement but not change. Beethoven rebelled against this determinative quality in the first movement. He wanted a prelude, an introduction, not a proposition.”[7]

I propose, reducing details and writing for the general public (details and the references should go to the body, the links from the tempo markings should be improved):

The Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp minor, Sonata quasi una fantasia", Op. 27, No. 2, by Ludwig van Beethoven, popularly known as the Moonlight Sonata (Mondscheinsonate in German), was completed in 1801. The sonata was dedicated in 1802 to his pupil Giulietta Guicciardi.

Beethoven included the phrase "quasi una fantasia" (Italian: "like a fantasy") in the title because the sonata does not follow the traditional movement arrangement of fast-slow-[fast]-fast. Instead, the three movements build in tempo from a slow and extremely soft Adagio sostenuto to Allegretto and finally Presto.

The sonata is one of the most popular piano sonatas, as well as one of Beethoven's most famous compositions for the piano. The name Mondscheinsonate (Moonlight Sonata) was coined in 1832, five years after Beethoven's death, by the music critic Ludwig Rellstab, who likened the effect of the first movement to that of real moonlight shining upon Lake Lucerne. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:06, 03 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I second that. MistyMorn (talk) 13:26, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
See my Comment in the preceding section. As soon as the article lede was brought up by MistyMorn, Kauffner went in and rewrote the lede, giving the exact opposite from what is being proposed here. See article History for his version, now reverted. (I've respelled "lead" to "lede".) Milkunderwood (talk) 14:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed both, your comment and the attempt to ignore the move discussion. Guess why I cemented the "current" status. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Unless my brain was entirely boggled last night, I'm sure that I noticed somewhere that Beethoven himself had intended the first movement to be "mournful" - but today I'm not finding that reference at all. Does it ring a bell with anyone? Also, I've argued in the preceding section that in popular culture it's only the first movement at most that is "popular" and well-known among the general public, with only the opening bars introducing the theme that have become a cliched musical meme. Milkunderwood (talk) 15:18, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ a b Piano Sonatas Nos. 8, 14 and 23 (Media notes). Naxos Records. 1988. {{cite AV media notes}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |notestitle= (help); Unknown parameter |albumlink= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |bandname= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |publisherid= ignored (help)
  2. ^ Usually Julie is reported as being born in 1784, making her two years younger than she actually was at the time. See Rita Steblin (2009): "'A dear, enchanting girl who loves me and whom I love': New Facts about Beethoven's Beloved Piano Pupil Julie Guicciardi." Bonner Beethoven-Studien 8, pp. 89–152.
  3. ^ Matthews, Max Wde (2002). The encyclopedia of Music. p. 335..
  4. ^ . HarperCollins. 2005. pp. 93–94. ISBN 978-0-06-075974-2. {{cite book}}: Missing or empty |title= (help). Steblin (2009) reports how Beethoven obviously dedicated this Sonata to Julie as a "revenge" for a gift he had received from her mother. This is in line with Beethoven's habit of never (publicly) dedicating any composition to anyone as a sign of personal affection or devotion, but rather as part of a business transaction (i.e., sold for money). See Thayer (in Elliot Forbes (1967, ed.): Thayer’s Life of Beethoven. 2nd ed. Princeton: University Press, p. 71): “Beethoven’s dedications of important works throughout his life were, as a rule, made to persons from whom he had received, or from whom he had hopes of receiving, pecuniary benefits.”
  5. ^ Beethoven, Ludwig van (2004). Beethoven: The Man and the Artist, as Revealed in His Own Words. 1st World Publishing. p. 47. ISBN 978-1-59540-149-6.
  6. ^ Grove Music Online (the article "Quasi"): "sonata in the manner of a fantasy"; the rubric sonata quasi una fantasia is also used for the preceding piano sonata, Op. 27 no. 1.
  7. ^ Maynard Solomon, Beethoven (New York: Schirmer Books, 1998), 139
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