Talk:Europe
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Europe article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11Auto-archiving period: 100 days ![]() |
Economy of Europe
I think this would be in the economy section: Europe has a long history as the world's richest and most productive part of the world. At the time of Christ's birth is estimated western European output per capita was approximately 30% higher than the world average. Year 1500 had this advantage increased to 40%.[1] After the development of science and the Industrial Revolution in Europe grew its lead quickly, in 1700 produced an average European almost 70% more than world's average population, and in 1850 was taken over the entire 150%. Around the year 1900 was Western Europe's leading role as the world's most productive area has been taken over by the former European colony of the United States, but Europe has continued to belong to the world's richest, most productive and knowledge-producing regions.[1]
Recent additions
Two editors, Rejedef and Lguipontes, recently made changes which very much skewed the article. The extensive introduction of material on ethnic groups of Europe in one edit by Lguipontes seemed undue; extra material on Portuguese colonization could be added if properly sourced. The new section on human rights seemed quite unbalanced and appeared to be written from a Polish perspective. There is already an article Human rights in Europe, which is anodyne and neutral. If any material is warranted in this article on that topic, it would normally not be expected to diverge significantly from what can be found in the main article (although that article could not be used as a source). Cherrypicking sentences from sources to add WP:UNDUE content is not the way to write a wikipedia article. Personally I don't see the need for a section on human rights. Mathsci (talk) 06:53, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, WP:UNDUE seems to be very much an issue here. I think people forget that this is an encyclopedia article, as such it is meant to provide the reader with a general introduction to Europe, not go into details. Particularly if they are POV-ish or poorly sourced. Athenean (talk) 07:07, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
I understand that you feel like Wikipedia bosses and sheriffs of an article. Good luck with that. Wikipedia is supposed to be a free Encyclopedia, by the way. --Rejedef (talk) 12:15, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
- You're reading it for free aren't you? We've told you, propose each change here individually. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Which I did and for a reason it is all wrong. If you are unhappy with its form, please change it so it is acceptable for the article 'management' --Rejedef (talk) 12:30, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
- You didn't, you proposed your idea. A change to the text should be something like "I want to chance <current text> to <your text> because of <your reason>" Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:35, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
- This article is amongst the 200 most read articles on wikipedia. Objecting multiple times to uncontroversial and universally accepted terms like Eastern Europe is a non-starter. Casting aspersions about other editors is also poor form. If you continue adding unhelpful comments like this to this talk page, they can simply be collapsed or removed per WP:TPG. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 21:02, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
- Regarding the changes of Lguipontes, if sources are given, there are no objections to adding details of Spanish and Portugese colonization of South America. However, I think the statements on specific ethnic groups in Asia, including Israel, are WP:UNDUE with too much unsourced and arbitrary detail for a general article. (Do islands in the Caribbean need to be mentioned?) Mathsci (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry for my lack of manners, hello. "Do islands in the Caribbean need to be mentioned?" Huh? There are more people in Cuba, Puerto Rica and Costa Rica than in Uruguay. If it gives a sequence of countries where there is an European-descendant majority, looks perfectly reasonable to do not cite a country like the Falklands or St. Pierre et Miquelon and all you can find about the Lesser Antilles (or a wide series of the locals where you can find little minorities of Eurasian creole peoples), but the places cited here are all 3.500.000~+ in population (and an exception in the Americas apart of USA, Canada, Southern Cone and Brazil). The Israel was going to be changed too, since Sephardim are of European origin too. Israel is largely mentionable in this article because there is some murmurs about its integration in the EU (and supported by Silvio Berlusconi!) and already has its place in "European integration", as does the South Caucasus, Kazakhstan and Turkey. Also, its plurality where Ashkenazi Jews are the largest group play an important role in the foreign relations of the country. And I just was going to mention (before the reverts) how groups in Central and Northern Asia are displaced because they are not a majority but a plurality there, and "European Siberians" were mentioned here way before I started editing. Arguments about arbitrary detail when it resumes in just one paragraph and unsourced when it is available data all over Wikipedia's related articles? This is not very much easy-going, mate. Furthermore, why reverting edits instead of putting sources about it if the former editor was not the only one with that certain idea about the article's content? Lguipontes (talk) 07:00, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- It's best to avoid any discussions of Ethnic groups of Europe, particularly if you are creating the content without using sources (statements about Ashkenazi Jews). There are too many islands in the Caribbean to make any useful statement in the article. It would be too much detail. If you want to have any discussion of new content on this topic, please provide sources which can be concisely summarised. Other wikipedia articles are not normally used as sources, although they can of course provide guidance. By all means add short sourced statements about Spanish, Portugese and other European colonisation of the Americas (although bear in mind that it is already mentioned in the history section). The first step is to locate relevant sources. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 07:35, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ok. Europeanness of the Jews is seen as controversial, I really never thought about it. No mention to Israel.
- It's best to avoid any discussions of Ethnic groups of Europe, particularly if you are creating the content without using sources (statements about Ashkenazi Jews). There are too many islands in the Caribbean to make any useful statement in the article. It would be too much detail. If you want to have any discussion of new content on this topic, please provide sources which can be concisely summarised. Other wikipedia articles are not normally used as sources, although they can of course provide guidance. By all means add short sourced statements about Spanish, Portugese and other European colonisation of the Americas (although bear in mind that it is already mentioned in the history section). The first step is to locate relevant sources. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 07:35, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry for my lack of manners, hello. "Do islands in the Caribbean need to be mentioned?" Huh? There are more people in Cuba, Puerto Rica and Costa Rica than in Uruguay. If it gives a sequence of countries where there is an European-descendant majority, looks perfectly reasonable to do not cite a country like the Falklands or St. Pierre et Miquelon and all you can find about the Lesser Antilles (or a wide series of the locals where you can find little minorities of Eurasian creole peoples), but the places cited here are all 3.500.000~+ in population (and an exception in the Americas apart of USA, Canada, Southern Cone and Brazil). The Israel was going to be changed too, since Sephardim are of European origin too. Israel is largely mentionable in this article because there is some murmurs about its integration in the EU (and supported by Silvio Berlusconi!) and already has its place in "European integration", as does the South Caucasus, Kazakhstan and Turkey. Also, its plurality where Ashkenazi Jews are the largest group play an important role in the foreign relations of the country. And I just was going to mention (before the reverts) how groups in Central and Northern Asia are displaced because they are not a majority but a plurality there, and "European Siberians" were mentioned here way before I started editing. Arguments about arbitrary detail when it resumes in just one paragraph and unsourced when it is available data all over Wikipedia's related articles? This is not very much easy-going, mate. Furthermore, why reverting edits instead of putting sources about it if the former editor was not the only one with that certain idea about the article's content? Lguipontes (talk) 07:00, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Regarding the changes of Lguipontes, if sources are given, there are no objections to adding details of Spanish and Portugese colonization of South America. However, I think the statements on specific ethnic groups in Asia, including Israel, are WP:UNDUE with too much unsourced and arbitrary detail for a general article. (Do islands in the Caribbean need to be mentioned?) Mathsci (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- This article is amongst the 200 most read articles on wikipedia. Objecting multiple times to uncontroversial and universally accepted terms like Eastern Europe is a non-starter. Casting aspersions about other editors is also poor form. If you continue adding unhelpful comments like this to this talk page, they can simply be collapsed or removed per WP:TPG. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 21:02, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
"Today, large populations of European descent are found on every continent, specially in what is known as the "New World". European ancestry predominates in the Americas, predominantly North America, but also to a lesser degree in the West Indies and South and Central Americas (particularly in Puerto Rico, Cuba, Costa Rica, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil — Western in culture, and its mostly multiracial population primarily of European descent, mainly in Centro-Sul but distributed along the entire country —, and all Latin American countries have a considerable population of European origins), with a majority or plurality scenery for "white people" but also a much greater percent including all European descendants, such as mulattoes, mestizos, pardos, métis, etc. Also, Australia and New Zealand are examples of Oceanian countries which have mostly European-derived populations.
Africa has no white-majority country, but there are significant minorities (and creole ethnicity is dominant in Cape Verde). In Asia, European-derived populations predominate in much of Northern and Central Asia (European ethnic groups present in Russian Empire or Soviet Union such as Russians, Ukrainians, Volga Germans and Ashkenazi Jews), specifically parts of Siberia and Kazakhstan. Additionally, transcontinental or geographically Asian countries such as Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Cyprus and Turkey have populations historically closely related to Europeans, with considerable genetic and cultural affinity."
- The lighter and cleaner edit I could have done. What do you think? Lguipontes (talk) 10:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Lguipontes, please stop making unsourced changes to this article. Again all sorts of ethnic groups are being mentioned without any justification; and "white" is being used as a synonym for "European". This is an article on Europe not ethnic groups of Europe or white people. Please stop changing the article in this non-neutral and unsourced way. This article is not a blog and any changes shoud be carefully sourced. In addition marking edits as "minor", when whole paragraphs have been rewritten, is not helpful. Please produce reliable secondary sources for any changes you are proposing. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 03:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Here is an example of a reliable source:
- Bacci, Massimo Livi (2000), The population of Europe: a history, Wiley-Blackwell, ISBN 0631218815
- It can be found on google books or on amazon. Mathsci (talk) 03:34, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Again: HUUUUUH? I asked questions about your opinion before changes. And you even made editions here before I made the edits hours later, in practice one day. I don't know who you are, Mathsci (I only can presume you know at least some French), but in my country there is the adage that says silence is consent. The argument about Unsourced is ok (even if the content is already in Wikipedia, even if there weren't absolutely no obviously biased phrases in my edits), but about ethnic groups and synonym to "European-derived populations", I certainly did it carefully. Don't you understand? I made references to multiethnic groups of European origin in the Americas and Cape Verde to mention other groups of European origin, and I even carefully said that statistics about white population percents are counterproductive (in the sense of searching European origins among a certain population) because of the plasticity of the socially constructed concept and the reliability of how this data is obtained.
- Trust me, I know the differences between continents and races (get the facts straight: I made distinctions between the two concepts, first to explain why not the great majority of American countries are listed on European-derived majority populations but I mentioned the other major groups which perform this role apart from "white people", a questionable concept, and I also said it in Africa because there are lot of insular countries and territories which probably have European-derived majority, the clear certainty about Cape Verde) and I know the proper articles and their respective contents, and I made it so clear that I can doubt your ability to interpret texts. I do not even want to consider looking into internet for sources page after page, if you think that all my edits are bad in some way. Oh, I read the online book, but how can it helps? That's why I asked you to correct any probable and explicable mistake before my changes of the content (since, no irony, you presumibly know better to do it than myself, I'm a little bit newbie), which you ignored.
- And you guys don't think that mentioning the 3 Southern Cone countries as the only European-derived countries outside North America is incorrect. Why Uruguay and Chile are so more mentionable than Costa Rica, Cuba and Brazil? There were way more European immigration to Brazil. And Cabo Verde is written Cape Verde in English. Good luck fixing it. I will just wait my internet connexion normalize. It can spend days for my successful login as Lguipontes (which is locked in my other browser of my another PC entirely bugged). :) 189.106.116.194 (talk) 10:15, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- The irony! Recent edits still mention Israel, which is no way European-derived majority even if we count Askenazim and Sephardim as such! 189.106.116.194 (talk) 10:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Recent additions to the History section
On recent edits: The interbreeding of H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis is relevant to the discussion of "displacement of Neandertals by Cro-Magnons"; the evidence for interbreeding between "modern" and "archaic" human populations is based on the most current research, including full sequencing of the Neandertal genome and comparison to the H. sapiens genome. Citing research based on this data which has only recently become available (as the complete Neanderal genome was not sequenced until relatively recently) doesn't fall under WP:UNDUE; this isn't a "minority view". (See here, also here, also here, also here). Spider Jerusalem (talk) 12:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- This is a very general article on the continent of Europe. Statements about DNA and one very recent research paper are completely out of place in the history section of such a general article. This content could possibly be inserted in more specialised articles like Prehistory of Europe; that has not happened so far. Spider Jerusalem has now tried three times to insert this WP:UNDUE content which is too specialized and not sufficiently recognized. Please could he/she stop? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 20:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
europe's knights and kings
europe had a interesting history and in his history the ancient romans are rule very longly but in time of sharlman frenk he was an wonderful king he won france,germany,holand,switzerland,spain,and many states he won. but when he come to kingdom the roman time had a very problems but he tried to fixed them. for easy corporation of economical,politcal sides he distribute the whole kingdom to his knights and his knights get the parts of kingdom but after sharlman europe does not have any powerful king that's why the european knights get powerful and now the king have not controled on the knights and the knights have there independente sides but at 12th and 13th century the business grown up and business want a poweful and stable government that secure them and that's why the businessman are support the king and king are gain up with the bang and now the knight are going very powerless and at war of paths the king get whole power and now knights are going down and down.- sompura sagar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.97.249.177 (talk) 14:36, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
"Mostly in Europe", "Mostly in Asia"
Disruption by indefinitely blocked sockpuppet of banned Satt 2 |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I have removed any such statements and adopted a neutral tone. It is not wikipedia's prerogative to determine which country belongs mostly where. The consensus on transcontinental country articles is that they are Eurasian, therefore can belong to either continent. This ambiguity is necessary to maintain neutrality and avoid constant challenges to claims of someone belonging "mostly" in Europe or Asia.--Andriabenia (talk) 11:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Mathsci, a single work cannot possibly carry so much weight. The views expressed in the book are those of the author and it is not a standard for anything. The consensus where Europe ends does not exists and it will not come into existence just because you and user:chipmunkdavis do not want to see poor peripheral countries like Georgia on this cherished article of yours. Including them as an expression of your mercy - i.e. " they're not really Europe but since they so insist we'll throw them in" - is not something I am willing to put up with. I am not here to make wikipedia decide that they are either European or Asian. I am only against the use of word "mostly."--Andriabenia (talk) 15:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
You have just tag bombed the footnotes in the article. On the other hand it's fairly easy to find discussions about boundaries in the Caucasus. The book "The Caucasus: An Introduction" by Frederik Coene, published by Routledge, makes it clear that the issue is completely ambiguous. On page 5, Coene states, "The question of whether the Caucasus belongs to Europe or to Asia has been and still is the subject of many intense discussions." He then gives five differing descriptions / interpretations of the borders:
These ambiguities can be spelt out in an article on the Caucasus, but that detail is unnecessary in this general article. The border that you described, according to this source, is only one of five possibilities and is not the most widely accepted one. Mathsci (talk) 00:23, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
This seems to be deteriorating into an edit war. The procedure outlined in BRD is that the editor makes a change (Andriabenia), another reverts it, the page stays reverted (without the proposed changes) until the discussion can form a WP:CONSENSUS Hopefully discussion can form a consensus acceptable to both parties, at which point any agreed changes can be made. If this is against some already agreed consensus, apologies, but after briefly reading the above remarks and seeing the edit histories, it seems that the bold changing editor is unwilling to accept that there is not consensus for their addition. Chaosdruid (talk) 00:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
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Interesting article
"Where Is Europe?" by Frank Jacobs, New York Times, January 9, 2012... AnonMoos (talk) 04:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Chinese Name Change
I deleted the following sentence from this page:
which is an abbreviation of the transliterated name Ōuluóbā zhōu (歐羅巴洲)
I did this because, I have never heard this term though I am a speaker of Chinese. I asked some native Chinese speakers, and they also had never heard this term. I have found any research indicating that the term 欧洲 is an abbreviation of 欧罗巴州, as the deleted sentence suggests, though 欧罗巴 is direct transliteration of the word Europe into Chinese. The word was used on the Chinese Language Wikipedia page refers to 欧罗巴 only as a transliteration for the Greek word "Europa."
A Continent only by Convention and Not in Fact
The fact that Europe and Asia are not really separate continents should be recognized at the beginning of the article. Yes, by convention! That is sort of like saying the two are "honorary continents." Or maybe this should be compared with "the emperor's new clothes"? This is all so elementary. The convention has to be referred to, but we should make clear that it is not true, as is of course clear to the beginner who reads more of the article. In his Study of History, Toynbee analyzes this false division. To the early Greeks, the two seemed to resemble separate continents because they were divided by the Straits, the Black Sea, and the Aegean--but not further north. Actually, "Asia" originally referred only to Anatolia.I would have to check exact references and may not get to this task soon. Someone else is welcome to do so. Eleanor1944 (talk) 05:16, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- ^ a b Madisson, Angus (2009). [http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_Statistics/horizontal-file_09-2008.xls Statistics on World Population, GDP and Per Capita GDP, 1-2006 AD].
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