Talk:Antisemitism

Religious Anti-Semitism in the Netherlands

Historical material and sources of note discussed on the Abraham Kuyper talk page may be more appropriate in this article, or a subsidiary article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Abraham_Kuyper#Kuyper.27s_Anti-Semitism

Polishing of grammar in definition?

This may seem like a moot point next to all of the talk about a Semite vs. a Jew, but if I were allowed to change the article, I would change the opening sentence to:

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is the suspicion of, hatred towards, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage. A person who holds such views is called an "antisemite".

I'm no expert, just a thought.

I'm not an expert either but i agreed with you so I changed it.

(is this how i should leave a response?)

Jack.alvarez (talk)

Modern Usage Clarification Needed

The article is effective at describing one theory behind German usage of the term "anti-Semitic" during WWII. What isn't clear is what "anti-Semitic" means in modern usage, and since none of us live in WWII Germany the current description of the word's use is meaningful only as a historical footnote. Modern usage sometimes means one is against Jews the religious group, other times Jews the racial group, other times Talmudic Jews the political movement, and still other times refers to anyone who disagrees with mainstream historical accounts of the Holocaust, notes the relevance of Jews in international finance, etc. So, what does the term actually mean today? It would appear (based on modern usage) that it means anyone who disagrees with a mainstream doxy relating to Jewish heritage in any form. As such, it is a rather meaningless term, since anyone could simultaneously have his/her five best friends be fervently Jewish people and have no qualms about them, and yet be correctly labeled "anti-Semitic" if he/she disagreed with some detail of the historical account of the holocaust, the precepts of the Talmudic political movement, had noted Jewish financial influence/power, etc. I propose that an area be added that discusses this dilemma, since "anti-Semitic" in modern usage frequently means anything but hatred for actual everyday Jewish people. Perhaps the fact that a Jew who disagrees with any such mainstream doxy would also be "anti-Semitic" most aptly reveals the absurdity of the word's modern usage. A discussion of this paradox certainly deserves a place in the article. 67.235.207.140 (talk) 16:38, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Since your first sentence is not fact-based, there's not much to go on here. The article has precisely one sentence about the German use of the term during WWII: In the aftermath of the Kristallnacht pogrom in 1938, German propaganda minister Goebbels announced: "The German people is anti-Semitic. It has no desire to have its rights restricted or to be provoked in the future by parasites of the Jewish race. And yes, it's entirely possible to have five Jewish best friends and still be antisemitic; "some of my best friends are Jewish" is a cliche for a reason. And no, you're not considered antisemitic if you disagreed with some detail of the historical account of the holocaust; you're considered that if you speak and act like a Holocaust denier. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 16:45, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

It is a confusing term. I remember being in a room full of people (mostly, like myself, saying nothing) while three jewish Americans argued about the then newish settlements in Israel. What finally ended the argument was one jew calling the other two "anti-Semites." It was food for thought then, and still is 20 years later. Carptrash (talk) 02:13, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

The crux of the question, I think, is whether or not it is actually possible for a Jew to be an anti-Semite at all. Jpgordon notes that one can have friends who are Jewish and still be an anti-Semite, but to that I would argue that Jpgordon's definition of "friend" must be quite loose, something more along the lines of what I would call an aquiantance. But back to the crux: is it possible for a Jew to be anti-Semitic? When this question is answered, perhaps we can finally get to figuring out what the heck the word "anti-Semitic" actually means. After all, can a Christian be an anti-Christian? Can a Catholic be an anti-Catholic? Can a Buddhist be an anti-Buddhist? Can a Jew be an anti-Semite? 108.167.119.69 (talk) 04:43, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Of course it's possible to be Jewish and antisemitic. See Self-hating Jew. It's also possible to be grossly hypocritical; it's possible to hate the Jews as a whole but like a few of them; it's possible to be slightly antisemitic. What NPOV, reliably sourced information would you like to add to the article? --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 14:40, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

The 1906 article here: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1603-anti-semitism is quite interesting incidentally. --BozMo talk 17:10, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I doubt that we can come up with a definition that will fit all the ways that the term is used today. The person I described about used the term to describe anyone who disagreed with her about what was basically a political stance, whether they were Jewish or not. Carptrash (talk) 17:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Holocaust denial, criticism of Israel, etc., are tactics used by anti-Semites, there is no redefinition of the term. Calling others anti-Semites because they are critical of Israel is a claim about their motivation. TFD (talk) 20:18, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Re: jpgordon: It is possible to be a self-hating Jew? The next logical question then is: what part of themselves is it that they hate? Is it their Jewish religion? This can't be correct because if so, they would simply become a non-believer by virtue of their loathing of their own beliefs (unless they suffered from multiple personality disorder, where one personality was Jewish and another loathed Judaism). Is it their Hebrew genealogy? This seems unlikely, since many Hebrews are not Jewish (being Muslim or Christian) and those Hebrews are nary referred to as "self-hating" for reasons of their lineage (or any other reason). After all, what is a "self-hating Christian?" The term is nonsensical. What is a "self-hating Latino?" Again, nonsensical. "Self hating Jew" is equally nonsensical, and if you take the time to consider it, in modern usage "anti-semite" is void of meaning. It conveys loathing and disdain as well as any derogative, but the emotional conveyance says absolutely nothing. I would further add that it is not possible under any logical definition of the word "anti-Semitic" to describe someone as such simply by virtue of their being a "Holocaust denier." The acceptance of one's history lessons, however incorrect those lessons may be, says nothing about their racial or religious biases. The denial of the Holocaust may very well be a tactic of some nefarious people in undermining Jewish credibility, but simply because it is a tactic of some does not make it indicitive of a bias of all who subscribe to an alternate view of history. For this reason, "Holocaust denial" really has nothing to do with "anti-Semitism," as one is historical academia while the other is some form of bigotry (of what exactly remains unclear). 108.167.119.69 (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

This page is for discussing the content of the article "antisemitism", not for general musings on the topic. Criticism of the concept of "self-hating Jew" is legitimately discussed on that page. Many of the points you make have been made by critics of the term, which is controversial for that reason. Paul B (talk) 18:16, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

The discussion here is relevant as it ties directly with what it means to be an "anti-Semite" (whether a Jew can be one, for purposes of uncovering a sensible meaning for the term). I suggest you read the full discussion before attempting slamming your imaginary gavel. 108.167.119.69 (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you read WP:TALK before jumping on your imaginary high horse. This page is not for musings or "discussion" of the topic, but for addressing specific, actionable issues. Paul B (talk) 18:33, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Ladies and gentlemen. Could we leave both horses and gavels outside? Carptrash (talk) 20:08, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Then allow me to attempt to make an actionable point: The article as it is contains no discussion of the problems (or shortcomings) of the derogatory phrase "anti-Semite." There is no "criticism" section for this phrase. However, there is criticism of the word outside the halls of Wikipedia. Such criticism deserves a place in the article. If you are wondering what that criticism is, I have and will continue to explain it. The word itself in today's usage conveys no particular meaning beyond "I don't like you and I want you to shut up." I have never seen the word used in modern, mainstream media, against anyone who felt that Hebrews were genetically inferior, or against anyone who had a problem with Jewish prayers, practices, or beliefs. The only way I have ever witnessed it used is to quiet anyone critical of the state of Israel, or critical of Western support of Israel. I have (once) heard someone on a national radio show critical of the Federal Reserve and international finance called an "anti-Semite," and in that instance the person being called it had not even made any connection between large banks and Jewish people at all. Typically it is thus used to preempt possible rational arguments before they can occur (i.e. you’re a racist and you don’t even know it, so you must stop). With that in mind, I have set out to discover what the word means, only to uncover its utter meaninglessness. It means everything and nothing all at once. I still don't know if an anti-Semite is someone who despises Hebrew genetics, Jewish prayers, mainstream history lessons, or what. One way to uncover its meaning is to ask whether a Jew can be an anti-Semite, because if they can, then we can rule at that anti-Semitism means to be against the Jewish religion, because if it did, then one cannot be both for and against their own religion. Therefore, in this discussion we have effectively ruled out religion as a factor in anti-Semitism (at least according to jpgordon, who believes Jews can be anti-Semitic and are those Jews frequently referred to as “self hating.”) Still, though, we haven't determined what the phrase does mean. If Hebrews are to be considered the "Jewish lineage," then do anti-Semitics also hate Christians, Muslims, and atheists of Hebrew lineage? My guess would be no. Therefore, the only consistent meaning of “anti-Semitic” is someone whose political goals are unaligned or at odds with the political goals of Israel. That is quite literally the only manner in modern times that I have witnessed the word used in mainstream media outlets. I believe that this criticism of the word’s modern usage deserves a discussion in this rather long article; I’m certain there’s room for it. 108.167.119.69 (talk) 03:41, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

The fact that you are limited or limit yourself to the experiences you describe does not warrant a section here. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 05:21, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

As you say, the term can be "used to preempt possible rational arguments." That does not mean that it is meaningless, anymore than terms such as racist, anti-American, anti-labor, anti-Catholic, etc., can be used as ad hominem arguments, yet remain meaningful concepts. TFD (talk) 05:49, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Jesus Christ, 108, you must really like to type. If you're confused about what the word means, consult a dictionary. If you have ideas about how the article should be changed, find a reliable source. Your personal musings and anecdotes don't count for anything here. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 17:31, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

NO criticism of this word "antisemitism"?

Is there a unanimous consensus about this word?