Talk:Sailor Moon

RfC: Is it relevant to include LGBT as a main theme?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Clear consensus that no, LGBT should not be a "main theme". However it is not clear what this means for the categorization of the article; I see several people writing this means that the article can still be categorized as Category:LGBT-related anime and manga as that is a different question. If we still have a debate over the article's categorization, then unfortunately we need a different RFC for that, that states the question to be decided clearly. --GRuban (talk) 21:29, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

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Should LGBT be a main theme in Sailor Moon? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:13, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

• Strong yes. For reasons I already mentioned. Boaxy (talk) 08:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
• No. In all, there were only 3 gay characters in the series and they were all side characters, Haruka Tenoh, Michiru Kaioh, and Fish Eye, the latter was killed off rather quickly in the manga and was more of a cross-dresser. The former two's sexuality was never a focal point of the series, thus why LGBT is not a main theme of the series. Trying to elevate these minor subplots into main themes is nothing more than political pandering. —Farix (t | c) 15:09, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I disagree. Kunzite and Zoicite are boyfriends. The Sailor Starlights use magic to transform themselves into a fake male human form boyband, but are actually women. The whole point of Wikipedia is for political pandering. Everyone who is an anime fan knows Sailor Moon is a gay series. The english dub has censored it to make it on LGBT. They make some characters related and has even cut some seasons from airing on television, rather than private DVD releases. Boaxy (talk) 06:28, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
• No per TheFarix's reasoning. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:46, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
• No - There are reliable sources connecting feminism for example, then there are LGBT related bits. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
• No - It unnecessarily elevates something that did not have a significant focus to begin with. --benlisquare_T•C•E 07:38, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
• I'm confused as to what everyone is defining as a "main theme." If you're asking if this article should have an independent subsection on sexual orientation and gender identity, then no. I don't believe there would be enough reliable sources to cover that for *this* article that is an overview of the manga (although if there *are* reliable sources actively discussing the context of orientation/gender ID as it is presented in the manga that's a different story). That being said, discussion of censorship based on orientation and gender ID for the original animated adaptation in several countries under the animation subsection currently in place is perfectly reasonable - as is *any* reliable commentary on the reception of LGBT characters under the Reception and Legacy headings. If you're questioning if this article should be included in Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies as well as having any relevant categories (such as Category:LGBT-related anime and manga), then yes of course, obviously. Any article which has significant LGBT characters (Uranus and Neptune alone qualify) would include these. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 17:40, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
• Yes - To my understanding, the category system is not meant for main themes, or core ideas. It simply has to be something of interest to the topic in question, and Sailor Moon I believe does qualify for such having several characters in the category, and as Bookkeeperoftheoccult noted censorship in regards to these characters. I think that is enough. Now, if someone can show an appropriate policy that contradicts this, I'd defer to that naturally. Derekloffin (talk) 05:57, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• No, as it is not a main theme (not even close). However, including it as Bookkeeperoftheoccult mentioned is perfectly fine because the themes are discussed here and there, and have certainly been written about in a variety of reliable sources. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:13, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
• 'No per Bookkeeper's comments. The series was not marketed and presented with LGBT as a main theme, and should thus be given the appropriate WP:WEIGHT. If a particular series or media within the franchise is LGBT themed, then apply it there. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:10, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
• No, for including it as a main theme but I don't see where LGBT was included as a main theme in this article anyway. However, it is related, as said Bookkeeper, so yes if the discussion is over this category and this WP markup. According to Yuri (genre) (sources there): Sailor Moon was "the first mainstream manga and anime series featuring a "positive" portrayal of an openly lesbian couple." Gabriel Yuji (talk) 15:44, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
• No - I haven't had much to do with the franchise (other than watching a few episodes of Sailor Moon Crystal), but from what I know, the yuri in the series isn't really much of a contribution to the story's direction. The LGBT themes could (and should) be mentioned in this and other related articles, but it shouldn't be discussed as if they were the main theme of the series. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 14:20, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
• Then remove the categories form Card Captora Sakura and Ranma and shit. Sailor Moon is more LGBT those anime/manga franchises are. Boaxy (talk) 09:16, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

"Sailor Moon is more LGBT [than] those anime/manga franchises are". Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 13:03, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

I think the problem here is there appears to be two different ideas of what this discussion is about going on. Most people are replying, rightly I think, to the 'Main Theme' notion in the section title, in which case I think they are right, no, LBGT is in no way a main theme of Sailor Moon (nor is it one for Card Captor... Ranma 1/2 maybe as whole premise of the story is about the title character switching genders all the time which I think does fall under the T part of LBGT). However, I think the intended discussion was for the category to be on this article which I don't think requires it to be a main theme at all. Derekloffin (talk) 19:49, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. We're having two entirely different discussions here. However, either way, the current consensus works entirely in your favor Boaxy. The original edit war that promted you to bring up this discussion in the first place was over Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies / Category:LGBT-related anime and manga, not the nature of the series' "primary theme." Those categories should be reinstated and there was never any cause to remove them in the first place, as they gave no indication of this article being presented as a LGBT-centric series - just an inclusive one. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 05:34, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

• Based on the commentary here, I'm going to restore Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies / Category:LGBT-related anime and manga. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 15:04, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

How the hell can you determine a consensus in support of the category when every comment but two were against it? —Farix (t | c) 20:17, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Did you READ each comment posted here? As stated directly above, two entirely different threads of thought have been discussed here, with heavy emphasis that "theme" and "category" are applied differently. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 20:49, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Categorization

Now, outside of the closing, I'm going to give a general comment about categorization as an experienced editor. It's not part of the closing, and doesn't answer the categorization issue directly, as I have never watched a single full episode of Sailor Moon, and couldn't tell one sailor from another if they bit me, so don't know how LGBT-related the series is. However, in general, we do only add categories if they are "the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having". In other words, is it pretty common and consistent that sources writing about the Sailor Moon series mention LGBT issues? Or is it pretty rare? That should determine the main page categorization. Traditionally more latitude has been granted to the talk page WikiProject interest categorization; in general if a WikiProject is interested in a subject, they get to put their box and category on the talk page (the only exceptions I've seen have been with WP:BLPs). --GRuban (talk) 21:44, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

If we're basing the decision on whether or not sources that write about the subject commonly include reference to LGBT characters/relationships then yes, as shown here, here and here. Based on your rationale the category may be debatable but I see no reason to exclude the LGBT WikiProject. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult)

• • This is exactly why I don't get evolved with fandoms and attach myself ot anything. Sailor moon is a LGBT anime. The categories shouldn't have any debate. Please whatever the hell you guys are thinking about doing, can you please make your mind up. I'm really upset that only one other person agreed with me. I don't even watch anime anymore because of this shit. Boaxy (talk) 09:45, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Season addition

Anime Herald updated their article to clarify that there is no second season in the works for Crystal. So, let's all hold off on adding a season until we get a solid confirmation from a reliable source. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:47, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring

There has been an edit war going on between Sjones23 and Dartfan20 for much of the past month. I'm not completely sure what the issue is, but the edit warring needs to stop and discussion needs to start before both of you end up blocked. –Chase (talk / contribs) 00:06, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi. I want to explain why I have been reverting before it gets any worse (disclosure: I was once blocked for edit warring nearly 5 years ago): Dartfan20, who has admitted to being a sockpuppet of the blocked user 75.82.92.70 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), has been adding dubious unsourced content repeatedly to this page (which includes broadcasters). The relevant SPI case can be found Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dartfan20. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Ditto. I can confirm everything Lord Sjones23 is saying. This has been going on for a while now, and not only on this article. But also, European Broadcasting Union, Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball (anime) among other. As I see it, it's just a clean-cut case of one editor persistently vandalizing a few articles even after being warned multiple times by multiple users. ProKro (talk) 20:28, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

LGBT categories

So I'm adding the categories now. (Walks away slowly) Boaxy (talk) 07:17, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

• Totally unnecessary edits. Just because there are such characters does not mean that the series is entirely LGBT-oriented.--Loyalmoonie (talk) 04:51, 8 July 2015 (UTC)Chris
  • So what do I do now. Sailor moon isn't apart of the LGBT culture. :(. I feel like I'm not a true Sailor Moon fan now. Sailor Moon is what caused me from not committing suicide in junior high school. Boaxy (talk) 02:30, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
    • Check your talk page; I will tell you something there (this isn't the place for me to place it).--Loyalmoonie (talk) 03:27, 10 July 2015 (UTC)Chris
      • I'm trying to be civil as I'm not trying to attack anyone. I respect your character, however I disagree with your analogies. My goal is to get those categories up, your goal is to keep them down. So that is where the problem lies. The thing is we have to get this resolved. Boaxy (talk) 10:43, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I stay with my previous position. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 21:50, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

• • It's like you guys have amnesia or there are double standards going on. Do I have to open up another consensus or whatever. Yeah I think I will. Those categories were up, and they will be up again.Boaxy (talk) 08:56, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

RfC: LGBT categories?

Due to the fact that many protagonists/antagonists of the franchise are LGBT, as well as many episodes dealing with LGBT issues, are the LGBT anime categories suitable for this article? Boaxy (talk) 09:01, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

• No See all the previous comments above. Your repeated creation of RfC after RfC in order to get these categories added is becoming WP:TENDENTIOUS. —Farix (t | c) 18:01, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
• Yes The previous discussion above, clearly noted, was off topic and imprecise to the dispute. It was asking for main themes, not whether the categories should be applied. As I said before, I don't think it is a main theme, but I do think it qualifies as a category. Derekloffin (talk) 19:48, 23 July 2015 (UTC)