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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Vks (talk | contribs) at 18:39, 9 April 2018 (→Transliteration). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Paragraph 3.3.2

"Moderate and conservative Islamists"... "moderate... Islamist"... lol who wrote this, the CIA? XD

ONLY Southern rebels are opposed to Al-Nusra

The article should specify that only the southern rebels (which are a very small faction) are opposed to Al-Nusra. Northern rebels are staunchly pro Al-Nusra and coordinate with them. "Some factions" is a thereby a very imprecise term, since the southern rebels numbers are very small in comparison with the ones from the north. The northern factions cited in the article only nominally condemn al-nusra, while in practice they militarily coordinate with them. Idlib was taken by al-nusra coordinating with these northern factions cited in the article!

Kharijites

Nusra can not be of Kharijites, since it fights them. See ref. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/01/09/who-are-the-kharijites-and-what-do-they-have-to-do-with-isis

rename as Jabhat Fateh al-Sham

A sizable majority support a move. Therefore moved Jabhat Fateh al-Sham.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:13, 23 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The merge issue and the article name are two different issues. Al-Nusra should redirect to Jabhat Fateh al-Sham, not the other way around. I do not yet see a consensus to title the group other than as they wish to be titled.--Brian Dell (talk) 22:55, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I believe Jabhat Fateh al-Sham is now more common, with al-Nusra being referred to in the past tense, e.g. "former". What the group used to call itself is irrelevant to the question of which is the more common name. I do think there should be some deference to what the group wishes to call itself, but the answer to that is "Jabhat Fateh al-Sham"--Brian Dell (talk) 23:30, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Al-Nusra Front" or "Jabhat al-Nusra" is still most the common name, as indicated by Google results. The name "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" was only around for 3 months but it has called itself the "al-Nusra Front" for more than 4 years. There shouldn't be any deference to the group's official name since even though ISIL have declared itself as the Islamic State more than 2 years ago, its article is still titled by its old name the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Editor abcdef (talk) 02:10, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My wife has called herself by her maiden name for 28 years and by my name for 2. Which name should we use now? By the way, I would readily admit she's the exact same person.... that's not the point, though. If New Zealand had voted to change its flag would we be talking about how many years the country had flown its former flag?--Brian Dell (talk) 04:52, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Most people who keep up with this stuff call it JFS and most people who don't still think of al-Nusra from the news and they'll see "changed its name" and go "Why didn't Wikipedia change its name? I'm confused. Is it like it's somehow still al-Nusra and, uh, this al-Shammy thing? Oh it's al-Sham now and the rest is like "army"...actually what does 'self-proclaimed' mean, is that like--". I actually linked a friend of mine to this article because I didn't feel like explaining it myself last night and I had a whole lot of confusion because this person hadn't heard of al-Nusra before it changed its name. While it might seem like a good idea to us because we keep up with this stuff, please remember we're not the only people reading Wikipedia, and editors are a minority of the population. Nuke (talk) 14:52, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Who are these "most people"? Almost all sources that use the new name add "formerly known as Nusra", unless they're some kind of Gulf state mouthpiece. Some sources don't even use the new name at all. So there is no confusion, unless you get all your news from al Jazeera. FunkMonk (talk) 16:28, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So? See Wikipedia:Other stuff exists, If there were a consistent pattern elsewhere in Wikipedia, maybe there'd be an argument there but a single isolated incidence could well be the exception to the rule.`--Brian Dell (talk) 04:52, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
They are similar groups with a similar history. It is a precedence. FunkMonk (talk) 08:32, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think they are that similar. How many attacks have Jabhat Fateh al-Sham made against civilians in the west? Or for that matter outside Syria? The Islamic State is on a whole nuther level when it comes to atrocities and enforcing Wahhabism in the territory it controls. The fact that a whole slew of western countries have supported air strikes on IS and not (yet) on these guys suggests that most official observers see a difference even if they are officially all terrorists. There might be a precedent anyway if there were a definitive discussion and resulting consensus so that we can say with confidence that the community put its collective mind to the question of how to title the Islamic State article but from what I can tell, that didn't happen and the current title over there can be most simply explained as that's the way the edit battles played out in that case. Rightly or wrongly, a lot of Wikipedia content is what it is simply because of the persistence of some editors.--Brian Dell (talk) 04:25, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Attacks against western civilians is not a factor in determining whether an article should be renamed at all. We don't reject the ISIL's renaming as the Islamic State because they target western civilians, we rejected the name due to the WP:MoS. Editor abcdef (talk) 05:24, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well if the style manual settles it then whether this group is "similar" to the Islamic State is irrelevant, no? By the way, can you quote just what in WP:MoS proved to be so decisive?--Brian Dell (talk) 04:12, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
comment to Funkmonk. That is because the terrorist group called ISIL want their territory and organisation to be recognised as a Nation State and caliphate under the banner Islamic State. Islamic State is not a recognised country/nation state by any other nation states in the world. If ISIL's claimed caliphate and occupied territory were to be recognised at the United Nations then that would be different. So you are comparing apples and oranges here.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 14:03, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The organisation calls itself IS, and so does many sources. Whether it is recognized as a country or not is irrelevant to this fact. FunkMonk (talk) 14:10, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
They do not see themselves as an organisation, they seem themselves as an Islamic government ruling a country. It is relevant because everybody including reliable sources, except ISIL and their supporters, see them as a terrorist group occupying captured land and do not view them as an Islamic Nation State. This is one big reason Wikipedia does not move the ISIL page to IS page. You have not refuted what I said.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 14:22, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Erm, you're just claiming that's why the ISIL article hasn't been moved, without providing any proof (links to discussions where this is stated as the reason). It may be why you think it hasn't been moved, but that's just speculation. FunkMonk (talk) 14:37, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Al Nusra is the more common used name, based on internet search, and the fact that the MSM needs to add "former" or "previously known as" shows that. What does wiki search tells us? I presume both names lead to this article now so I assume there is some statistics on what name is used the most. Regards, Ratipok (talk) 14:37, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree BBC, Al-Jazeera and CNN calls it JFS, we should care about the media not what states (US and Russia) call it! That's why I was against the merge from the beginning because it will cause more problems and confusions. If this doesn't change the same could be applied with SAA which is mainly called in the media "Assad forces", so please don't let us go this way. 3bdulelah (talk) 21:43, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's CNN and Jazeera themselves that call the SAA "Assad forces", "government forces", or "regime forces", so you're working against your case here. Editor abcdef (talk) 02:17, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No I'm against double standards, eather we call things by its name (which I support) or we chose the most common name, so rename this to Jabhat Fateh al-Sham or Rename SAA page to "Assad forces" (which is wrong) 3bdulelah (talk) 04:26, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're both wrong. This version of "double standards" is bizarre. Let's use ISIS as an example. We don't call it Islamic State (very vague phrase which is rightfully a disambiguation page) or al-Qaeda in Iraq. We call it Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, which might not be its current name, but it works. It's still close to the current name. It's not "and Syria", but that was never its official name technically. Al-Nusra is no longer close to the new name and there's no reason not to change the name. Nuke (talk) 14:52, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support because it is now the official name. There's no reason we can't just add a redirect and rephrase the lead a bit so readers know that this is "al-Nusra Front" is the former name of JFS. Nuke (talk)
  • Support. I thought that was the initial idea. Anyway, this is the name of the group now. We should use it and keep the "Al-Nusra Front" redirect here. Coltsfan (talk) 21:11, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Changing the Name of the Article - most news articles ive been reading have been using the new name. The reason why the ISIS page was not changed was due to many editors here not wanting to call the page Islamic State because they argued it would give credence to that organizations claims as to being a state.71.187.7.42 (talk) 23:23, 8 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - no strong reason not to use official name here. Also it would have been a bit better if you made a properly formatted move request.--Staberinde (talk) 16:51, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral - it might be too soon to rename, though it is quite clear that in case the new name persists - we would have to rename this article (clearly al-Nusra and JFaS are the same organization).GreyShark (dibra) 10:37, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support article rename - Jabhat Fateh al-Sham is the most common name used now. Most independent mainstream news sources use the new name and refer to nusra front in the past tense such as 'formerly known as'. Al Nusra Front should be mentioned and bolded in the first sentence of the article indefinitely, however, as the organisation's former commonly known name.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 07:45, 18 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (Speedy) time has moved on, usage e.g. BBC [1] and per MOS orgs say we should switch to new org name (about now or sooner, so speedy). Widefox; talk 15:49, 18 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Why have you voted twice, with the same reasoning?--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 04:58, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thought this was a new proposal, removed. FunkMonk (talk) 09:17, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MERGER

Jaish al-Sunna, Ansar al-Din, Jabhat Fateh al-Sham, Nour Din Zinki, & Liwa al-Haq today merged together to form "Tahrir al-Sham"

Official statements here - https://twitter.com/HT_sham12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tyrroi (talk • contribs) 17:19, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

History

I made this infograph with @badly_xeroxed https://twitter.com/badly_xeroxed/status/826098954689470464
This explains the 3 phases of this group:

1- Jabhat al-Nusra li Ahl al-Sham جبهة النصرة لأهل الشام - Support Front for the people of the Levant (an offshoot of Islamic state of Iraq) (2012-2013)
2- Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Sham - Jabhat al-Nusra: تنظيم قاعدة الجهاد في بلاد الشام - جبهة النصرة al-Qaeda in the Levant - Nusra Front (Direct Branch of al-Qaeda in Syria and Lebanon) (2013-2016)
Jabhat al-Nusra in Lebanon: جبهة النصرة في لبنان later merged under Qalamoun Branch of JaN (2013-2014)
3- Jabhat Fatah al-Sham: Declared itself as a new group that has no ties with any organisation outside of Syria (2016-2017)

I think if we organize the history section according to these 3 phases the section will be much better 3bdulelah (talk) 22:46, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 January 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus appears in support of a move, so this article will be moved because of that. (non-admin closure) SkyWarrior 19:12, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jabhat Fateh al-Sham → Al-Nusra Front – Hi The group have been disbanded in 2017 but the commons name of the group was Al-Nusra Front between four years (2012-2016) and the group was known as JFA during 6 months. Panam2014 (talk) 11:37, 29 January 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. SkyWarrior 17:55, 11 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

why are u opening a new discussion now, we already discussed that let's wait and see if the group will dissolve completely and what's going to happen to its other branches outside of Idlib. I'll make a comprehensive review on the history of Nusra and purplish it here to improve and organize the History section 3bdulelah (talk) 18:09, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@3bdulelah: The situation has changed. In the previous discussion, it was not expected that the group would be dissolved and merged with others. The commons name had become FJS. Now that the group has merged totally (yesterday's release), and that he was known as JAN for 4 years and as JFS for 6 months, a new discussion is needed. --Panam2014 (talk) 18:57, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's not clear JFS has actually 'dissolved' though, is it? This merger may function more as a centralised coalition rather than liquidating the component groups.--Dan J Lopez (talk) 11:14, 30 January 2017 (UTC) @Dan J Lopez: hi, several groups have been dissolved on 28 January. --Panam2014 (talk) 16:59, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Istandwiththesilent: the group has been disbanded. And JAN was a commons name during 4 years, and JFS was only during 6 months. --Panam2014 (talk) 09:58, 11 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Relisting comment: I see that there was consensus to move the page to the current title back on January 23, about six days before this current RM was filed. Instead of closing this, I'm going to relist this instead simply because I don't think six days is enough to change consensus (but I could be wrong). SkyWarrior 17:55, 11 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Nusra Front is still the most common term under which they are known by most. EkoGraf (talk) 06:36, 13 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support - al-Nusra Front is the most commonly-known and used term. Also, al-Nusra Front existed under the "Jabhat Fateh al-Sham" brand for only 6 months, while it went by the al-Nusra name for over 4 years. LightandDark2000 (talk) 22:19, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose They clearly call themselves Jabhat Fateh al-Sham and so does everyone else. In addition, the name Jabhat Fateh al-Sham is becoming more commonly used as time goes on. Denarivs (talk) 00:54, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Becoming more common? Shouldn't it be less and less commonly used since in theory JFS literally dissolved itself last month into Tahrir al-Sham? Editor abcdef (talk) 02:06, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so because we don't know if the Tahrir al-Sham coalition will hold up, so secondary sources still mostly use the Jabhat Fateh al-Sham term. Denarivs (talk) 05:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support In mainstream media and on plenty of older military maps of conflicts in Syria and even Lebanon the group is called Al-Nusra, under this name they reached their military successes and history will not remember their shrot-used name. Even technically all articles about others military groups in Syria call Al-Nusra this way. Sincerely --89.177.238.52 (talk) 02:11, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nusra is not designated as a terror organization by UN

The citation for terror designation says:

> Syria had initially asked for al-Nusra to be designated a new terrorist group, but Britain and France countered with a proposal to instead list it as an alias of al-Qaeda because there were concerns about the Syrian evidence supporting its request, said diplomats, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

> http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/05/201353021594299298.html

That doesn't mean they are designated as a terror organization by UN but they are considered as "alias of al-Qaeda" — Preceding unsigned comment added by SakibArifin (talk • contribs) 14:59, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That is really splitting hairs. I think the source is fine and it says what our article says. Dbrodbeck (talk) 16:18, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Transliteration

I'm quite confused by the trans"literation" of arabic definite articles. Because ن is a sun letter, the ل of definite article is not pronounced, but there appear a shadda over the first letter of the word. Why isn't this article called An-Nusra Front? Vks (talk) 18:39, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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